More Doom and Gloom from Automotive News

[Camino LS6]

I don't have a full account, so this is just the teasers for each article.

Of course, you may not want to keep reading anyway.

http://ebm.e.ccialerts.com/c/tag/hBJIeVoAG...&RAF_TRACK=

The FLA senator is an idiot!

[Oracle of Delphi]

I don't have a full account, so this is just the teasers for each article.

Of course, you may not want to keep reading anyway.

http://ebm.e.ccialerts.com/c/tag/hBJIeVoAG...&RAF_TRACK=

The FLA senator is an idiot!

Allow me, I have fulll access to almost anything!

Senator calls for 50 mpg as condition for aid

WASHINGTON -- Automakers that receive federal aid should double the fuel economy of their fleets by 2020, Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., said today.

Nelson's remarks during Senate floor debate suggest that Republicans are not the only lawmakers who may block emergency loans to the Detroit 3.

In an interview, Nelson said a new energy law that raises fleetwide fuel economy to 35 mpg by 2020 -- about 40 percent higher than today -- falls far short.

"Why should we be pouring taxpayer money into an automobile industry that has continued to resist higher miles per gallon, which has led us in part to the problems we're in?" he said.

Nelson said he wants a fleetwide average of 50 mpg by 2020. Asked whether he would seek to block aid to the industry over that issue, he said: "All of that is process. That is yet to be determined."

Nelson echoed other lawmakers who say the aid legislation should include pay limits for Detroit 3 executives. But he also said current senior management of the automakers should step down.

General Motors declined to comment on Nelson's proposals, pending the release of the actual legislative language.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said he plans to introduce a broad economic stimulus bill that includes aid to automakers.

If that bill fails, Reid said, he will offer a bill that provides only for expanded unemployment benefits and aid to the Detroit 3, expected to be $25 billion in loans drawn from $700 billion already approved to rescue the nation's financial system.

The White House says Congress should make it easier for automakers to get loans from a separate $25 billion previously approved to help with retooling for more fuel-efficient vehicles.

Separately, in a Senate floor speech late this afternoon, Republican Whip Jon Kyl of Arizona argued against a federal bailout of the Detroit 3 and attempted to refute their claim that bankruptcy is not a realistic option.

If the companies need to shed debts, employees, brands and dealers to become viable, that's exactly what bankruptcy protection is designed to help them accomplish, Kyl argued.

He also revealed that Bush administration officials have discussed providing aid to automakers to help them get through reorganization under bankruptcy law since they contend normal sources of credit would likely be cut off.

As for suggestions that the federal government would help manage automakers if they get a bailout, Kyl threw up his hands and said, "That is the last thing you want."

Link: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti.../811170235/1200

[balthazar]

>>"Nelson said he wants a fleetwide average of 50 mpg by 2020."<<

Why only 50 ?? Doesn't that big dial in all the assembly plants go clear up to '200 MPG' ?

[cletus8269]

maybe he'll be the first to go if cuba ever invades...

he's about as stupid as that woman who cast her vote on the CAFE legislation because of her instant MPG readings....

[Robert Hall]

>>"Nelson said he wants a fleetwide average of 50 mpg by 2020."<<

Why only 50 ?? Doesn't that big dial in all the assembly plants go clear up to '200 MPG' ?

Hmmm....a fleetwide average of 50 would require a fleet of diesel Aveo sized cars and trucks...

[A Horse With No Name]

>>"Nelson said he wants a fleetwide average of 50 mpg by 2020."<<

Why only 50 ?? Doesn't that big dial in all the assembly plants go clear up to '200 MPG' ?

Perhaps we could use the French idea of a car that runs on hot, compressed air. The Florida senator has plenty of that.

But as you said in another post balthazar, none of this is good for the auto industry. I have a real feeling that the days of cars like the CTS, Solstice, Camaro, Mustang, Cahllenger, 300 et al. are very numbered indeed.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Hmmm....a fleetwide average of 50 would require a fleet of diesel Aveo sized cars and trucks...

It will be a sad day in mudville when the sexiest car you can buy is a bright Hugger Orange...Smart Car.

Chris

[Robert Hall]

Perhaps we could use the French idea of a car that runs on hot, compressed air. The Florida senator has plenty of that.

But as you said in another post balthazar, none of this is good for the auto industry. I have a real feeling that the days of cars like the CTS, Solstice, Camaro, Mustang, Cahllenger, 300 et al. are very numbered indeed.

Chris

I keep hearing the Rush song 'Red Barchetta' with it's ominous sounding 'Motor Law'...

R-Cube

[wildpaws]

Why would you expect anything less than this nonsense of 50mpg fleet average from the lunatics at Disney On The Potomac?? They have not lived in reality in the last 40 years!!

Clyde

[Intrepidation]

These morons seem to not realize that not only would such a ridiculous mandate cost much more to achieve, but the $25 billion in loans (not free money) is just so they can keep their doors open.

[ellives]

I'm surprised he didn't make the suggestion to shoot every car buyer as soon as they sign a sales contract for any vehicle that gets under 50 mpg. Shame on those stupid customers who want to spend their money on something they WANT to buy!

[gmcbob]

Wow, just wow. These are dark days indeed for car nuts like us. And to think, just as it looked like GM had the ship starting to sail a little better, started coming back out with some real good product, and the Volt right around the corner, etc, etc, the economy takes a huge &#036;h&#33; and the credit markets freeze up. It truly blows that the Big 3 are going to the Govt., hands out for a loan like this for the entire public to see (and criticize). I knew as soon as I started hearing a few weeks back that GM and the other two were heading to Washington for money, that all the anti-car, anti-Detroit loonies in the media and on Capitol Hill would come out of the woodwork and utterly piss me off. I think I'm going to officially hang up my car enthusiast hat during this holiday season and take up some completely different hobby.

I keep saying bird watching, but I may just start getting into cooking - I like food, maybe spending some time in the kitchen will make me feel better? Photography is cool too. Yeah, photography. Hmmm...

[enzl]

The same was said about seatbelts, emissions regs, CAFE et al.....

It's difficult to get 50 MPG, but far from impossible. Maybe we should keep being dependent on oil from our enemies for a few more generations?

It's a national security issue more than anything---and Europe already has fun cars that get 50 or more---the electrification of the car (as led by GM's Volt) will mean realistic advances that net such results.

It's actually not bad for GM--or the country. And, its better to have a GM than allow it to rot, no?

[Robert Hall]

You can definitely get 50mpg in a compact w/ a diesel... it doesn't have to be an Aveo-sized sh*tbox. The automakers just have to have the courage to sell them here.

[balthazar]

>>"The same was said about seatbelts, emissions regs, CAFE et al....."<<

No; the same was NOT said about seatbelts.

As far as CAFE goes, we have a 35/2020 already on the table. Jumping to 50, another 50% bump, in the same time span ??? How about 35/2010 and 45/2020?

>>"It's difficult to get 50 MPG, but far from impossible."<<

Sure it's possible to build a car that gets 50 MPG, but this is not a suggestion to build a single car that does so, but a full product line that does so on a sales-weighted average.

>>"...Europe already has fun cars that get 50 or more..."<<

Any European brands with a 50 MPG fleet average, or anything close to it?

[regfootball]

The same was said about seatbelts, emissions regs, CAFE et al.....

It's difficult to get 50 MPG, but far from impossible. Maybe we should keep being dependent on oil from our enemies for a few more generations?

It's a national security issue more than anything---and Europe already has fun cars that get 50 or more---the electrification of the car (as led by GM's Volt) will mean realistic advances that net such results.

It's actually not bad for GM--or the country. And, its better to have a GM than allow it to rot, no?

then make the Japs have their cars at 50 mpg too. 50 mpg will compromise safety also.

the smart car can't even get above 35 mpg real world.

so you're using the national security card when it comes to mpg but the manufacturing technology and ability of our own US owned companies has no bearing on national security?

so when detroit closes down, and the UAW goes with then watch those wages plummet at those transplant plants fold.

funny thing, watch the jobs go back to Japan too.

I read a good article today, the article where the governor got a Kia Borrego as a gift from Kia for the new plant opening (some southern state). Don't kid yourselves people. A large majority wants the Detroit 3 to go under so that car jobs will come to them in the US, and they don't care if the countries are foreign. Its regional warfare.

Lots of folks feels that Detroit failing will actually benefit those in other states, particularly. People are being selfish basically. they want the failure of the detroit 3 and UAW because they assume they will benefit somehow.

so if the big three are handicapped with some sort of extra rules because of this, why not put rules on all those transplants who took a bunch of government money to have their plants set up here in this country?

Edited November 18, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

You can definitely get 50mpg in a compact w/ a diesel... it doesn't have to be an Aveo-sized sh*tbox. The automakers just have to have the courage to sell them here.

no one wants to buy cars like that in the US. they only buy them when gas prices spike. or their wages suck. which both are the problem.

the only reason MINIS sell here at atrocious prices, its an 'entry level BMW'. people can't get the 1 series even its too pricey. But for brand snobs, the Mini is the next best thing.

I don't see mammoth A3 or C30 sales. So you can't say people want premium small cars.

Gas is two bucks now. Don't think that Jetta diesel will be as in demand now.

That Cobalt that was flying off the lots mere months ago (see, added shifts) now is rotting on lots too. Look at Civic sales, march vs. last month.

Look in the mirrors people and say this again 20 times fast......PEOPLE IN THE US DO NOT WANT SMALL CARS

THEY ONLY as a whole BUY THEM EN MASSE WHEN MONEY BECOMES THE ISSUE

Edited November 18, 2008 by regfootball

[Chicagoland]

The stupid Senator assumes that ALL imports get 50 mpg, so why not? big f-in duh!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Wow, just wow. These are dark days indeed for car nuts like us. And to think, just as it looked like GM had the ship starting to sail a little better, started coming back out with some real good product, and the Volt right around the corner, etc, etc, the economy takes a huge &#036;h&#33; and the credit markets freeze up. It truly blows that the Big 3 are going to the Govt., hands out for a loan like this for the entire public to see (and criticize). I knew as soon as I started hearing a few weeks back that GM and the other two were heading to Washington for money, that all the anti-car, anti-Detroit loonies in the media and on Capitol Hill would come out of the woodwork and utterly piss me off. I think I'm going to officially hang up my car enthusiast hat during this holiday season and take up some completely different hobby.

I keep saying bird watching, but I may just start getting into cooking - I like food, maybe spending some time in the kitchen will make me feel better? Photography is cool too. Yeah, photography. Hmmm...

Warning! Too much time in the kitchen may make you end up looking like Santa! HOHOHO!

[VenSeattle]

If VOLT is actually rated at 100 mpg, and if GM proceeds with producing several variants of the VOLT platform & tech under different brands (Buick Riviera, Cadillac version, other platform mates as well) then why would it be difficult for GM to achieve an average of 50 mpg between now and 2020????? I say go for it!

[CSpec]

Obama had better be able to stand up to the more idiotic factions of his own party. Have they never heard of incentives? If you want less gas to be consumed just make it more expensive! Then the carmakers will make cars people want instead of cars the government forces them to make.

[regfootball]

increasing the gas tax is the most sensible way to decrease use.

[enzl]

then make the Japs have their cars at 50 mpg too. 50 mpg will compromise safety also.

the smart car can't even get above 35 mpg real world.

so you're using the national security card when it comes to mpg but the manufacturing technology and ability of our own US owned companies has no bearing on national security?

so when detroit closes down, and the UAW goes with then watch those wages plummet at those transplant plants fold.

funny thing, watch the jobs go back to Japan too.

I read a good article today, the article where the governor got a Kia Borrego as a gift from Kia for the new plant opening (some southern state). Don't kid yourselves people. A large majority wants the Detroit 3 to go under so that car jobs will come to them in the US, and they don't care if the countries are foreign. Its regional warfare.

Lots of folks feels that Detroit failing will actually benefit those in other states, particularly. People are being selfish basically. they want the failure of the detroit 3 and UAW because they assume they will benefit somehow.

so if the big three are handicapped with some sort of extra rules because of this, why not put rules on all those transplants who took a bunch of government money to have their plants set up here in this country?

I've never supported the idea of Detroit being allowed to fail---I would demand smart, meaningful milestones and goals---but you'll never find me rooting for their failure.

As far as safety, or any other excuse, the EU's crash standards are good enough for me--clean diesel, hybrids & Volt-tech EREV's all will make 50 mpg a breeze---the Volt will come with 100mpg ratings, whichl raise the avg quite a bit if GM has the cajones to build enough of them!

[Camino LS6]

Attaching these increased CAFE rules is ill-timed pandering in my view, it distracts from the immediacy of the crisis at hand.

Such side debates should be reserved for another day.

The manufacturers know that they need to operate with fuel efficiency as a guiding principle, they don't require goading to aim them in that direction.

Let's keep them alive so that they can deliver what the senator is demanding.

First things first.

[regfootball]

I've never supported the idea of Detroit being allowed to fail---I would demand smart, meaningful milestones and goals---but you'll never find me rooting for their failure.

As far as safety, or any other excuse, the EU's crash standards are good enough for me--clean diesel, hybrids & Volt-tech EREV's all will make 50 mpg a breeze---the Volt will come with 100mpg ratings, whichl raise the avg quite a bit if GM has the cajones to build enough of them!

I believe that there should be global crash and emissions standards but fuel economy standards would be a bear to make global.

all i am saying, all cars in whatever market they are in should have the same regulation criteria.

[regfootball]

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared-bl..._view_of_t.html

An emerging Southern view of the Detroit bailout

Sunday, November 16, 2008, 03:00 PM

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Sonny Perdue now drives a Kia. Occasionally.

The jet-black, $37,500 Borrego sports utility vehicle showed up in the governor’s Capitol parking spot last month, a gift to the state from the South Korean car maker - which is now building a $1.2 billion plant in west Georgia.

Apparently, company executives didn’t want Perdue showing up on their doorstep in something out of Detroit.

In the midst of a high-stakes debate over whether to salvage the U.S. auto industry with an umpteen billion dollar federal bailout, this is a small detail, but a telling one.

In its own way, the governor’s new ride may be as meaningful as the demolition of the Ford plant in Hapeville, or the abandonment of the General Motors plant in Doraville.

For behind the philosophical back-and-forth over government intervention, scheduled to begin Monday in the U.S. Senate, is a cut-throat, economic reality: the South has ambitions of becoming Detroit’s rival.

And a federal dollar that artificially props up manufacturing on the northern end of I-75 is a dollar that hinders the creation of new economic models downstream, some Southern politicians maintain.

Last week, Gov. Mark Sanford of South Carolina argued that the refusal of the federal government to bail out the Pittsburgh-based steel industry in the 1970s ultimately led to the establishment of new steel mills in the South. Which permitted the birth of a new facet of the auto industry - highly automated, mostly non-union, and foreign-owned.

“There wouldn’t be a BMW in South Carolina or a whole host of other auto industries scattered across the South, because we would have just kept them all in Detroit,” the Republican said.

Georgia’s Kia plant is scheduled to open next November, employing as many as 2,500 workers. The site is located within U.S. Rep. Lynn Westmoreland’s 3rd District. Westmoreland, like other House Republicans, voted against the $700 Wall Street bailout.

He’ll vote against a Detroit rescue as well - on the grounds that it would create a slanted field of play for the workers he’ll soon represent.

“One of the things we have constantly said is we can’t compete with some of these foreign businesses because the government has intervened in those businesses, and it makes an unfair advantage,” Westmoreland said. “What we’re doing here with the auto industry is basically the same thing.”

As have other states, Georgia laid out a boatload of incentives to land its auto plant, worth an estimated $415 million. But that’s not the same thing, the Georgia congressman said.

“I don’t think we were doing that because of bad business decisions Kia was making,” Westmoreland said. “We did that to get them in here, to create the jobs, to create the taxes, to put economic development into the area.”

Regional rivalry has its limits, of course. Before turning one’s back on Detroit, one must consider the impact that the addition of 1.5 million unemployed would have on an already shaky national economy.

Foreign car makers with interests in the South made up roughly 40 percent of the U.S. sales market in July, but contrary to what you might expect, they’re not interested in seeing Detroit disappear, said Bruce Belzowski, an assistant research scientist for the University of Michigan’s Transportation Research Institute.

Companies like Toyota “really don’t want to be seen as conquerors, from an image perspective,” Belzowski said.

Then there’s the fact that, if you’re a member of Congress, you never know what this economy might bring next. And an attitude anchored too firmly in laissez faire today might hurt Delta or Lockheed tomorrow.

Even if you’re a prospective Kia employee, you might not want to see Detroit fall. Wages are lower in Southern auto plants, but they’re still tied to wages hammered out between the United Auto Workers and the Detroit Three, according to Belzowski.

“Those people wouldn’t be making the money they’re making now if not for the UAW,” he said.

also

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

Edited November 18, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

the other facet of this that is developing. the repubs are dead set to not let Obama to do what he wants with the bailout, so will vote against whatever it is he wants, so he is set to fail in office from the start.

[Robert Hall]

An emerging Southern view of the Detroit bailout

Another reason to hate the South. Effing red states.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If VOLT is actually rated at 100 mpg, and if GM proceeds with producing several variants of the VOLT platform & tech under different brands (Buick Riviera, Cadillac version, other platform mates as well) then why would it be difficult for GM to achieve an average of 50 mpg between now and 2020????? I say go for it!

I take this approach as well...

I mean, as long as I can have my fire breathing Corvette or Pontiac or Camaro, then why not make a majority of the very fuel efficient?

Let's face it; GM and Co are going to have to pull some sort of miracle out of their asses in order to gain a huge chunk of the publics support again. Why not leverage E-Flex to reinvent the automobile and do just that. We live in a very "tech and innovation conscious" society. Like I said in my TO GM project, GM needs to redefine itself as a LEADER in technology and innovation IMMEDIATELY.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Obama had better be able to stand up to the more idiotic factions of his own party. Have they never heard of incentives? If you want less gas to be consumed just make it more expensive! Then the carmakers will make cars people want instead of cars the government forces them to make.

Nah... If they did that, they'd lose their money flow from big oil.

[regfootball]

Another reason to hate the South. Effing red states.

remember, the south hates the north and the south is mad that detroit 3 didn't give them plants!

also, the south is 'right to work'.

[enzl]

I take this approach as well...

I mean, as long as I can have my fire breathing Corvette or Pontiac or Camaro, then why not make a majority of the very fuel efficient?

Let's face it; GM and Co are going to have to pull some sort of miracle out of their asses in order to gain a huge chunk of the publics support again. Why not leverage E-Flex to reinvent the automobile and do just that. We live in a very "tech and innovation conscious" society. Like I said in my TO GM project, GM needs to redefine itself as a LEADER in technology and innovation IMMEDIATELY.

Smartest thing you've ever posted.

If you're going to reinvent the company, this kind of goal is needed.

Remember, GM got into this mess partially because they set goals that were short term---like quarterly profits or matching an Accord. Shouldn't their aim be higher than that?

This bailout is an opportunity, and it can't be viewed as a failure by the people running GM---otherwise, it's simply delaying the inevitable crash--and that can't be the goal, can it?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

``Companies fail every day and others take their place,'' Shelby said on CBS's ``Face the Nation'' yesterday.

You know, this is the dumbest "oh well" brush off logic I've ever heard....

Yeah, companies fail in a free market FAIR system and are replaced. That's business.

But companies that fail in a manipulated system (Both through subsidies from 'replacement' businesses governments and a lack of oversight from 'failed' businesses government) and are replaced by companies that DO NOT have our best interests at heart will eventually cause the COUNTRY to fail.

We are beginning to see that. Theses 'capitalism above all else' people are so blind and naive that I don't think anything can save this country. But then again, why should they care. After all, the 'replacement businesses' are mailing their paychecks anyway.

``We have a number of profitable automakers in America, and they shouldn't be disadvantaged for making wise business decisions while failure is rewarded,'' DeMint said.

So because GM and Ford are old and carry the LEGACY costs of most of this country, they made bad business decisions? Once upon a time, caring for your workers was a GOOD business decision... But then again, once upon a time, caring about the wellfare of ones country above all else was a good decision as well.

``The financial straits that the Big Three find themselves in is not the product of our current economic downturn, but instead is the legacy of the uncompetitive structure of its manufacturing and labor force,'' Shelby said. The Big Three's current crisis is ``not a national problem, but their problem,'' Shelby said.

Yeah, because NOT being able to get cars financed in a society where even FAST FOOD is bought on credit cards is DEFINITELY not a national problem.

These people are so f*cking stupid. Anyone who sits back and believes that the national financial crisis (Not unlike the great depression) isn't affecting ALL businesses, should be shot in the face at close range by a shot gun. That's how ignorant you'd have to be.

[Oracle of Delphi]

GM as a company does have a heart, when GM built its Ramos Arizpe plant around 1981 or so, GM made the decision to build all of it's Mexican workforce housing on land around the plant. GM was concerned about how if it didn't build the housing a Tin and Tent city would spring up around the plant.

[A Horse With No Name]

increasing the gas tax is the most sensible way to decrease use.

I would agree.

Chris

[balthazar]

>>"As have other states, Georgia laid out a boatload of incentives to land its auto plant, worth an estimated $415 million. But that’s not the same thing, the Georgia congressman said. “I don’t think we were doing that because of bad business decisions Kia was making,” Westmoreland said. “We did that to get them in here, to create the jobs, to create the taxes, to put economic development into the area.”"<<

So assisting the 'MoTown 3' to continue existing would somehow NOT create taxes, NOT avoid unemployment, NOT create economic stability & development ??????

Oh, and who in their right mind would pay $38 grand for a kia ?????????????????

Edited November 19, 2008 by balthazar

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

>>"As have other states, Georgia laid out a boatload of incentives to land its auto plant, worth an estimated $415 million. But that’s not the same thing, the Georgia congressman said. “I don’t think we were doing that because of bad business decisions Kia was making,” Westmoreland said. “We did that to get them in here, to create the jobs, to create the taxes, to put economic development into the area.”"<<

So assisting the 'MoTown 3' to continue existing would somehow NOT create taxes, NOT avoid unemployment, NOT create economic stability & development ??????

Oh, and who in their right mind would pay $38 grand for a kia ?????????????????

A lot people as the media continues to convince them that Kia is worth it.

[gmcbob]

Warning! Too much time in the kitchen may make you end up looking like Santa! HOHOHO!

:rotflmao:

Thanks - I needed that laugh PCS

Edited November 19, 2008 by gmcbob

[gmcbob]

Well, based on all the things I'm reading on the internet, it kind of sounds like the Big 3 are going to have to wait until January to get any loans out of Washington. (I actually think that at GM and Ford can make it to that point).

Is this going to be "Obama to the rescue"???

[smk4565]

I don't like CAFE regs because they'd have to build only econo-boxes to get 50 mpg, and that limits consumer choice. If they want to deter purchases of gas guzzlers, put a $2000-$3000 tax on cars getting under 25-30 mpg, and give a tax credit on cars getting over 40 mpg. Then consumers have incentive to buy a fuel efficient car, but still have a choice.