What will it take for the UAW to go away perminantly?

[BuddyP]

Curious to hear some takes on this.....

Edited November 17, 2008 by !!!TED!!!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Chapter 11...

Unfortunately, I think that the only way the UAW will go away permanently is for GM to do the same.

[CSpec]

No way, Obama is a fan of big organized labor.

[Camino LS6]

Go away?

Not going to happen.

I could see the UAW adjusting to reality and buying a stake in the company though.

[ellives]

We can only hope the malaise currently going on will do it. I know I will never buy another Detroit automobile as long as the UAW continues to exist.

Curious to hear some takes on this.....

EDIT: sorry, wrong forum

[gm4life]

Yet another reason I didn't want Obama in he is a big union guy. Aside of that the only way to get rid of the Unions is let them file chapter 11, then hire folks back at resonable wages without the god-d*mned union. Sure you won't make cars for six months but it would work. The union wants more than they can't have, more and GM can't give them more. If there is anything pulling GM down it is the Union. I want the bail-out but if given they need to promise to restructure. If they just give them the money nothing will happen more of the same. Don't get me wrong I love GM and I have alot of pride in American products but honestly just throwing them more money is not the answer. Simple answer no Union will fix Gm seriously.

Edited November 17, 2008 by gm4life

[Brougham-Holiday]

I'm very pro-union, and I don't want the UAW to go away. It's not their fault that GM didn't build a world class mid-sized front wheel drive car until the new Malibu/Aura in North America.

Having said that, UAW does need to step up and do as much as possible to help save GM.

[smk4565]

Chapter 11 or lack of a bailout will kill off the UAW. When a UAW worker makes $34 more an hour than a Toyota worker to make a car with lower quality, it can't last long before going bust.

[gm4life]

SMK I think I am actually partically agreeing with you. There was a time and a place when Union was needed. It was when folks were being over-worked and underpaid. Now that is not the case, the UAW always has there hand out, GM can not afford to keep feeding this pig. Anymore Unions aren't needed in this country, because of the standard of living and oppertunites. At one point I could find a good reason for a Union. If the UAW goes away GM can get its costs back down and EASILY become more profitable with NO NEW PRODUCT. It is amazing they have done so well for so long with a mix of good/unattractive product and high wages for Union workers. When the average hourly wage a Honda/Toyota in American is 30 or so dollars less you have a huge problem. The workers that get canned when they file chapter 11 will need a job and come back with no Union. I think it would be the only way to fix GM and get them back on the road to profitablity. Seriously, or as much as it hurts me to say this they will die. The Union is killing them, the lack of fuel efficent product and questionable workmanship for a few years cost them. It is sad but I still recall what happend in a harbor in the pacfic some 60 years ago. I never forget and that is why I DRIVE AMERICAN. (Not because of the Unions!)

I do wonder if the stupid Ron doesn't realize it that he is only shooting himself in the foot asking for more and more. GM can't do more and more. The need to do less and pay a fair wage to get there costs back down or closer to Toyota and Honda if they want to live into the next century. If all this is done with strings attached to the bailout for R&D etc, and to invest in America I say go for it. I do not want ANY fuel economy standards attached that would be a deal breaker. My point is in the auto industry amoung many others UNIONS aren't needed Honda and Toyota pay fair wages and give decent benefits without the Union and SO CAN GM. It is not the product anymore or the lack of efficent vehicles like it used to be in is just the F*CKING UNION. Don't kid yourselfs they are killing this great American company. I am a true GM lover and belief deeply in North American industry but the Union has to stop this because they are literally going to kill GM if something can't be done. This is sad and I predicted it would come to this. KILL THE UAW. REORGANIZE WITHOUT THE UNION. PAY A FAIR WAGE WITH RESONABLE PERKS AND DEVELOPE NEW CLASSY CARS LIKE THE MALIBU, CTS, ENCLAVE and G8 AND MOVE ON. IT CAN BE DONE, BUT THE UNION MUST DIE.

DIRTY BASTARDS.

[gm4life]

Last thought and if the Union workers really cared about a great American company and industry they would stop asking for more realize there loyal employeer is in trouble and stop F*CKING themselves. Yet many of those selfish pigs can't see past there G*D DAMN self. They don't realize they might not have a job. So no job or less pay and no union. The choice would be easy for me.

[longtooth]

The detractors haven't a clue as to how it is.

UAW Local 435, Wilmington, DE.

Home of the Pontiac Solstice.

[capriceman]

When a UAW worker makes $34 more an hour than a Toyota worker

Show me the proof for this. All the guys i know at GM make about 24-28 an hour. I do know skilled trades guys that make $38 from the UAW. but they deserve it. they are licensed journeymen from the state.

stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

[capriceman]

It really disgusts me that you have total disregard for the workers like that. so i take it you hate teacher unions too? so then city's can bend the teachers over and cut there pay in half cause they can. What about law Enforcement? f@#k those guys over too since they have unions? lets cut there pay and take there health befits away because the city has a shrinking budget. Unions protect the workers people like you and me. so when you hope theses unions die you just told a couple million Americans to f@#k off and hope they lose there jobs because they don't deserve a middle class life. Some proud American you are...

[gm4life]

Honestly in this day and age Unions in private corperations like GM should go. Simple it would literally save them. It could mean the difference between life and death. As for public/gov't Unions I really don't have nearly any problem with them. As for the BIG THREE THEY NEED TO GO.

[Brougham-Holiday]

Honestly in this day and age Unions in private corperations like GM should go. Simple it would literally save them. It could mean the difference between life and death. As for public/gov't Unions I really don't have nearly any problem with them. As for the BIG THREE THEY NEED TO GO.

I work in a private non union company, I've seen what happens when you stand between the boss and his/her pay raise. I've seen what happens when the boss has it out for someone, and I know what others with similar jobs have that I don't (their benefits, pay,etc.) There is still a need for unions in this country, and in private business. At the Big Three the problem is the unions were for decades given whatever they wanted, its as much their fault for being greedy as its GM/Chrysler/Ford for not putting their foot down 25 years ago when they were starting to loose market share. The answer is GM getting UAW under control, it seems the last contract with its major changes that haven't been fully realized yet will if time permits be an important part of the turn around plan.

[Chris_Doane]

What will it take for the UAW to go away perminantly?

The end of the world.

[black02]

I'm very pro-union, and I don't want the UAW to go away. It's not their fault that GM didn't build a world class mid-sized front wheel drive car until the new Malibu/Aura in North America.

GM's high labor costs led it to try making it up by cutting costs elsewhere. So I'd say that high labor costs led GM to not build a world class car. I'd say that the UAW shares the blame. Fortunately, they have agreed to changes that will help GM compete with Honda and Toyota. Unfortunately, the changes won't be fully implemented until 2011, and GM has to survive that long first.

[A Horse With No Name]

The detractors haven't a clue as to how it is.

UAW Local 435, Wilmington, DE.

Home of the Pontiac Solstice.

Longtooth, I hope your still employed and building cars in about 15 months, and I hope the economy is better.

I want a Solstice badly!

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I work in a private non union company, I've seen what happens when you stand between the boss and his/her pay raise. I've seen what happens when the boss has it out for someone, and I know what others with similar jobs have that I don't (their benefits, pay,etc.) There is still a need for unions in this country, and in private business. At the Big Three the problem is the unions were for decades given whatever they wanted, its as much their fault for being greedy as its GM/Chrysler/Ford for not putting their foot down 25 years ago when they were starting to loose market share. The answer is GM getting UAW under control, it seems the last contract with its major changes that haven't been fully realized yet will if time permits be an important part of the turn around plan.

There are abuses in Union companies and their are abuses in non union companies. There are bad Democrats and bad Republicans. No one is perfect. However, we do need some way to stand up for workers rights in this country.

That doesn't mean that a Union is mandatory. But it also doesn't mean they ahve to go away either.

Chris

Edited November 18, 2008 by 66Stang

[longtooth]

Longtooth, I hope your still employed and building cars in about 15 months, and I hope the economy is better.

I want a Solstice badly!

Chris

I know we want to build them.

My Brother's itchin' for a GXP in red.

The economy in general going through gyrations as I've never seen it.

That's the real wild-card or variable.

[Brougham-Holiday]

GM's high labor costs led it to try making it up by cutting costs elsewhere. So I'd say that high labor costs led GM to not build a world class car. I'd say that the UAW shares the blame. Fortunately, they have agreed to changes that will help GM compete with Honda and Toyota. Unfortunately, the changes won't be fully implemented until 2011, and GM has to survive that long first.

Volkswagen is union, why can't GM build a small car that beats the Jetta/Rabbit?

How did Chrysler become so successful in the 1980's with the UAW?

I agree that both sides share blame, but it's not ''Joe Sixpack" (I love that) on the assembly line who decided to build the Cadillac Cimarron or Pontiac Sunbird. I see management as the cause, and the unions as greedy, but a necessary evil.

Toyota who has made a business model of hiring temporary employees in its US plants is in now way comparable to GM. Claiming Toyota is competitive in work environment is like calling McDonald's cashiers "job growth", laughable.

GM needs this money to make it to the 2011 changes in the contract. The next step is to cancel junk like the upcoming Pontiac G3 and get back to building great cars. If they had taken an Aveo and turned it into a little screamer that looked more like a Pontiac I might be able to accept it, but GM don't p*** in my head and tell me its raining. People didn't stop buying American cars because they were union made, they stopped buying them because of products like the Vega, Grand Am, Skylark, Cavalier, Sunfire, and Aztec.

[A Horse With No Name]

...but that's exactly it, the whole temporary help thing of Toyota. Employers are treating workers more and more like throw-away objects instead of assets.

Chris

[CaddyXLR-V]

Volkswagen is union, why can't GM build a small car that beats the Jetta/Rabbit?

How did Chrysler become so successful in the 1980's with the UAW?

I agree that both sides share blame, but it's not ''Joe Sixpack" (I love that) on the assembly line who decided to build the Cadillac Cimarron or Pontiac Sunbird. I see management as the cause, and the unions as greedy, but a necessary evil.

Toyota who has made a business model of hiring temporary employees in its US plants is in now way comparable to GM. Claiming Toyota is competitive in work environment is like calling McDonald's cashiers "job growth", laughable.

GM needs this money to make it to the 2011 changes in the contract. The next step is to cancel junk like the upcoming Pontiac G3 and get back to building great cars. If they had taken an Aveo and turned it into a little screamer that looked more like a Pontiac I might be able to accept it, but GM don't p*** in my head and tell me its raining. People didn't stop buying American cars because they were union made, they stopped buying them because of products like the Vega, Grand Am, Skylark, Cavalier, Sunfire, and Aztec.

It's simple. If GM competed with VW on every level, and priced their cars like VW, their marketshare would be nowhere close to where it is now. It would be more like VW's marketshare. The problem with that is, GM would have to close even more plants in the US. But wait! The UAW wont let them close more plants and layoff more workers. Anyone can figure out paying for 30+ plants, and workers for all those plants, while only using 5 plants, is a recipe for disaster. GM has been doing exactly what the market allows them to do, which is cheap out on everything they possibly can, to keep the price on their cars down, to keep the assembly lines going.

If GM adds content to their cars, prices goes up. When prices goes up, sales go down. When sales go down, costs per vehicle go even higher. To cover those higher costs, prices go up again. Even lower sales. Bottom line, it's a vicious cycle, and it's the UAW that prevents them from getting out of it.

[BuddyP]

It really disgusts me that you have total disregard for the workers like that. so i take it you hate teacher unions too? so then city's can bend the teachers over and cut there pay in half cause they can. What about law Enforcement? f@#k those guys over too since they have unions? lets cut there pay and take there health befits away because the city has a shrinking budget. Unions protect the workers people like you and me. so when you hope theses unions die you just told a couple million Americans to f@#k off and hope they lose there jobs because they don't deserve a middle class life. Some proud American you are...

It has nothing to do with screwing people over. I believe in an honest days wage for an honest days work.... Now, how about those that want to work or teach and NOT be part of the union? They don't have a choice and are forced into it.

Ironically enough, when my wife and I were staying at a B&B in Charlevoix over Labor day, I was talking with a guy that works at the CTS plant in Lansing. For whatever reason Unions came up. He blatently said "I cringe every time the union dues come out of my check"... "saves the lazy persons job" and went on how he thought they were corrupt and how the union uppers would help each others kids get jobs above those who had more seniority. Maybe it's just the Delta twp plant, but I doubt it. I think it goes both ways.

[black02]

Volkswagen is union, why can't GM build a small car that beats the Jetta/Rabbit?

I'd say they do. The Jetta/Rabbit are not a problem for GM.

How did Chrysler become so successful in the 1980's with the UAW?

Minivans. The Japanese didn't have anything in the market.

I agree that both sides share blame, but it's not ''Joe Sixpack" (I love that) on the assembly line who decided to build the Cadillac Cimarron or Pontiac Sunbird. I see management as the cause, and the unions as greedy, but a necessary evil.

Toyota who has made a business model of hiring temporary employees in its US plants is in now way comparable to GM. Claiming Toyota is competitive in work environment is like calling McDonald's cashiers "job growth", laughable.

GM needs this money to make it to the 2011 changes in the contract. The next step is to cancel junk like the upcoming Pontiac G3 and get back to building great cars. If they had taken an Aveo and turned it into a little screamer that looked more like a Pontiac I might be able to accept it, but GM don't p*** in my head and tell me its raining. People didn't stop buying American cars because they were union made, they stopped buying them because of products like the Vega, Grand Am, Skylark, Cavalier, Sunfire, and Aztec.

Right. The high cost of labor led GM to attempt to balance that by cost cutting. It didn't work. They're now trying top quality cars, but it's going to take a few years to turn over the product lines, and they're counting on more favorable UAW contracts to be cost competitive.

I'm not anti-union. But I'm also not a union apologist. Prior to the 2007 contract, UAW costs were well above transplant costs, not due to salary, but due to benefits. In the long run, with two competent competitors, it's hard to overcome a labor cost disadvantage.

Note that there are two ways to fix this. One is to increase Toyota's labor costs. The other is to reduce GM's labor costs. The UAW has failed to organize the Nissan, Toyota, Honda plants. So increasing Toyota's costs didn't work.

I do not want to see blue collar jobs paying lower and lower wages. But that's a problem to fix in the future.

[gm4life]

It can go both ways still they need to get costs in line.