Aaargh, $%#@ G5

[vonVeezelsnider]

Weeeel, today was the first "major" snowstorm of the year and I went alone to church this morning, so I was driving my G5.

You may recall when I purchased it in May.

When I was going through the buying process I was also looking at another Impala, the G6 and the GP. Fact is I wanted to go small because it was ultimately just going to end up my brother's car. When I was first looking at said car the window sticker, the build sheet, and a GM vehicle history printout I was supplied with all showed the car was equipped with the Enhanced Traction System, which has two prerequisites. In order to have ETS the car must have ABS and the 4SP Auto transmission. The reason for ABS being a prerequisite is because the system requires the wheel sensors the ABS System has. So I figured I'd get that car as it has the right safety features. Fast Forward back to today, when during a blizzard I approached an intersection and the light turned yellow I thought I could stop so I but the brake pedal to the floor and it went full lock, no ABS engaged. So I was like "What the f@#k?!" so I pulled off onto a deserted sidestreet, placed the car over a patch of sheer ice and mashed the gas to see if the Traction Control would engage. It didn't engage. I found this strange, so when I got home I checked my crib sheet again the car stated it was equipped with ETS, but the trunkated RPO code list didn't contain every code... As it turns out even though GM, the Dealer and their respective computer systems at the time I bought the car told me that the Car had said safety features it would appear that the car has neither. I checked the fuse box and there are no fuses in the ABS or ETS slots either... Needless to say I'm a little pissed that the car doesn't have options that several different sources said had... I mean hell I probably wouldn't have bought the car If I had known it had no Anti-Lock Brakes.

I'm going down to the dealer tomorrow to find an explanation and see if they can check to see if said systems have been installed at all or whether some manufacturing or systems defect has simply rendered them inoperable... I mean frankly don't care if I have to do threshold braking in the winter but I'm still annoyed and all I want is an explanation

[/end rant]

[Justin Bimmer]

This is f@#ked up. I see a lawsuit if they don't make it right.

[Croc]

If it was on the dealership sticker, and you still have all the paperwork confirming it, then they have an obligation to make it right. Just mention consumer fraud and they'll rush any remedy they possibly can. If not, call up your Canadian equivalent to the US States' Attourneys General, and work with them.

[vonVeezelsnider]

When you first turn on the key, not to start, but first turn it so the dash lights come on, do the bottom two lights in the middle, the ones that say TC and ABS, come on? If they do, that would be the first sign if you have the two or not. Also, do you have a button that has a picture of a cross section of a tire with the letters "TC" in it? That's the traction control button. If you have the button make sure traction control isn't turned off and if you don't have the button, you don't have traction control.

Neither a TC Light or an ABS light come on but I never really paid attention to that until it became obvious today... But I'm pretty sure the Cobalt and G5 don't have a TC Button regardless, as I've seen higher end loaded LTs and LTZs up close, loaded with everything including the Pioneer system and leather and yet they don't have the button either.

Checking my crib-sheet I see that all Cobalt LTZs had both ABS and TC standard but the only extra button between this 07 Cobalt LTZ and mine is the Fog Light Switch next to the instrument brightness control. My owners manual has a section on the Enhanced Traction System and it also makes no mention of a button while the Owners Manuals in the Maxx and Impala (the former having ETS, the latter having full function traction control) both make mention of a button and indeed have one.

Besides, those lights wouldn't come on in the absence of a fuse anyway, right??

I mean I could care less about the Traction Control it's the lack of ABS up here in the frozen north that I'm getting pissed about... I mean even my 1997 Cavalier had a functioning ABS system.

Edited November 17, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[vonVeezelsnider]

If it was on the dealership sticker, and you still have all the paperwork confirming it, then they have an obligation to make it right. Just mention consumer fraud and they'll rush any remedy they possibly can. If not, call up your Canadian equivalent to the US States' Attourneys General, and work with them.

Yup I have all the documentation including a 2007 G5 brochure that I have kept on file... but I'm not going to jump to nuclear launch phase until I can talk to my dealer tomorrow... I'd like to think it's an honest mistake, I mean I have no reason to think otherwise... We'll see what they tell me tomorrow.

[Croc]

Yup I have all the documentation including a 2007 G5 brochure that I have kept on file... but I'm not going to jump to nuclear launch phase until I can talk to my dealer tomorrow... I'd like to think it's an honest mistake, I mean I have no reason to think otherwise... We'll see what they tell me tomorrow.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this post. You were sold a car on ABS and Traction Control, because you value safety and tried to ensure you got it. I'm assuming that you paid money in real dollars to get a vehicle with those features that were advertised to you as being on the vehicle.

Turns out you don't have them.

Where does "honest mistake" come in? That GM made an "honest mistake" in not installing a safety feature your car was supposed to have according to the sticker, build sheet, and vehicle history report? Do you think your car just happened to be the only car this ever happened to, or do you think there are other people who might have this same problem? ABS and traction control in a winter weather climate are IMO more important than air bags. Recalls would certainly be issued if GM made an "honest mistake" in forgetting to install air bags on vehicles that were supposed to have them (assuming for sake of argument they were "optional" air bags, like head curtains, or rear seat side airbags).

I'm not sure what the "nuclear option" is you're referring to, either...my previous post was meant as a road map of sorts to getting this issue resolved. Yes, talk to your dealer, but...what exactly do you want out of it? I assumed you want ABS and traction control installed, hence my road map of getting that.

Not having it is going to cost you...both in the real dollars you undoubtably paid in purchasing the car, and in money you or your brother won't get back when you sell the car. Not having those is a killer on resale. You may also lose money in the event of an accident that would have otherwise been avoidable.

And don't think I'm being overly cynical about the dealership balking initially...they hate doing warrenty claims because they have to incur labor that you don't have to pay for. In this economy, they are going to be even more motivated to not do work that isn't absolutely necessary. Hold your ground, be polite, but firm, and don't be intimidated.

And I don't know about up in Canada, but in America a little bluster can go a long way in getting your way. When I was buying my Aurora, the dealership tried to tell me that even though it had a "Certified Pre-Owned" sticker on it, and the salesman described it to me as such, that they were really just using my car to advertise the fact that they had certified pre-owned vehicles on the lot. When I put the keys on the table, refused to sign the last piece of paperwork and proceeded to raise my voice about how I found that to be deceptive, dishonest, and potentially fraudulent so everyone in the showroom could hear me, I suddenly got $500 knocked off the price and a brake job thrown in for free. Yay!

By the way, I just realized you have a Cobalt in your sig, not a G5. Pourquoi?

Edited November 17, 2008 by Croc

[vonVeezelsnider]

Where does "honest mistake" come in? That GM made an "honest mistake" in not installing a safety feature your car was supposed to have according to the sticker, build sheet, and vehicle history report?

I'm not sure what the "nuclear option" is you're referring to, either...my previous post was meant as a road map of sorts to getting this issue resolved. Yes, talk to your dealer, but...what exactly do you want out of it? I assumed you want ABS and traction control installed, hence my road map of getting that.

Not having it is going to cost you...both in the real dollars you undoubtably paid in purchasing the car, and in money you or your brother won't get back when you sell the car. Not having those is a killer on resale. You may also lose money in the event of an accident that would have otherwise been avoidable.

And don't think I'm being overly cynical about the dealership balking initially...they hate doing warrenty claims because they have to incur labor that you don't have to pay for. In this economy, they are going to be even more motivated to not do work that isn't absolutely necessary. Hold your ground, be polite, but firm, and don't be intimidated.

By the way, I just realized you have a Cobalt in your sig, not a G5. Pourquoi?

My "not going nuclear" response was more aimed at CaddyKing than you (more or less I don't feel like talking about suing somebody just yet) ... Also by honest mistake I mean that I don't think the dealer deliberately deceived me so I don't think they'll be uncooperative in helping me find an acceptable solution, but hell if I have to get a little tough that's what's gonna happen. As for the Cobalt, it's a good pic . Don't worry, I still intend to go down there and be firm, and get an explanation as to why this happened, and get a solution.

I really appreciate your posts btw they've been insightful for me in preparing to go down there today.

Edited November 17, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[PurdueGuy]

well, that's all pretty strange... hope it all gets worked out!

[regfootball]

ABS ought to be standard on EVERY car sold now. Stabilitrak too, IMHO.

[CARBIZ]

The 2007 LS and LT G5/Cobalts did not come with ABS. Unless you paid the extra $600 on your bill of sale, you wouldn't have a legal case in court. It is clearly marked in the brochures, too. 'O' means 'optional.'

Blame your salesman or mis-communication. GM yanked ABS out of all their cars in '03. At the time, I thought that was a mistake, but in all of '03 I only had two customers who gave a damn. Go figure.

Due to roll-over regulations, etc., stability control is being mandated in trucks and soon in cars, so ABS is suddenly becoming in vogue again. I guess GM was about 2 decades (again) ahead of things when they put ABS in all their vehicles in '93.

The '09 G5/Cobalts have ABS standard on the LT models, but not LS.

[CARBIZ]

ABS ought to be standard on EVERY car sold now. Stabilitrak too, IMHO.

I agree with you, but you'd be amazed at how many people bitch and whine about them (usually older folks). Also, there were a lot of early sensor problems (especially with Fords) back in the '90s which resulted in costly repairs being needed when the vehicle his 5 or 6 years old. Canadian winters (salt!) kick the crap out of anything under the chassis.

[Sixty8panther]

ABS WAS standard on all GM cars for over

a decade, but stupid consumers and the

filth over at the autorags just never caught

on to that advantage and it became another

built in cost over a $h!box Toyota, Ford or

Honda or whatever so they decided to play

SMART instead of taking the high road and

getting FU**Ed by Toyota etc. AGAIN.

ABS ought to be standard on EVERY car sold now. Stabilitrak too, IMHO.

Let suppose I agree with you, ONLY if they

have a fully OFF feature for times you do

not need/want them on! (stabilitrack)

[Croc]

The 2007 LS and LT G5/Cobalts did not come with ABS. Unless you paid the extra $600 on your bill of sale, you wouldn't have a legal case in court. It is clearly marked in the brochures, too. 'O' means 'optional.'

Blame your salesman or mis-communication. GM yanked ABS out of all their cars in '03. At the time, I thought that was a mistake, but in all of '03 I only had two customers who gave a damn. Go figure.

Due to roll-over regulations, etc., stability control is being mandated in trucks and soon in cars, so ABS is suddenly becoming in vogue again. I guess GM was about 2 decades (again) ahead of things when they put ABS in all their vehicles in '93.

The '09 G5/Cobalts have ABS standard on the LT models, but not LS.

Is that a difference between US and Canadian law? Down here, just this is all he needs to have a case:

When I was first looking at said car the window sticker, the build sheet, and a GM vehicle history printout I was supplied with all showed the car was equipped with the Enhanced Traction System, which has two prerequisites. In order to have ETS the car must have ABS and the 4SP Auto transmission.

[vonVeezelsnider]

The 2007 LS and LT G5/Cobalts did not come with ABS. Unless you paid the extra $600 on your bill of sale, you wouldn't have a legal case in court. It is clearly marked in the brochures, too. 'O' means 'optional.''

Incidentally this was year old G5 on the used lot... not a new car. The bill of sale does not include options in this case, but it doesn't change the fact that I was given numerous documents (warranty inquiry, build sheet with RPO codes right from the General Motors system, Window Sticker, etc) that said the car had these critical safety features

'BIZ, that's not the point unfortunately. the point is that everything I was supplied with during the purchasing process showed the car as having the Enhanced Traction System, which it does not have, the enhanced traction system according to the brochure and other research I did needs ABS to function, therefore according to the spec sheet the Enhanced Traction System includes ABS, what it getting me riled is that the car has neither SAFETY FEATURE that I was told it had by the window sticker, build sheet etc... it's not a matter of standard and optional, the car is supposed to have these safety features and it doesn't... At this point I don't even want to think about a legal case, I just want to talk to the dealer first.

[daves87rs]

Dude Vee, that sucks...

I do hope everything does work out.

I wonder if the dealership can just install it for you? (I know of people who have "added" it..)

My Cobalt does not have ABS either, something I do miss....

[CARBIZ]

Incidentally this was year old G5 on the used lot... not a new car. The bill of sale does not include options in this case, but it doesn't change the fact that I was given numerous documents (warranty inquiry, build sheet with RPO codes right from the General Motors system, Window Sticker, etc) that said the car had these critical safety features

'BIZ, that's not the point unfortunately. the point is that everything I was supplied with during the purchasing process showed the car as having the Enhanced Traction System, which it does not have, the enhanced traction system according to the brochure and other research I did needs ABS to function, therefore according to the spec sheet the Enhanced Traction System includes ABS, what it getting me riled is that the car has neither SAFETY FEATURE that I was told it had by the window sticker, build sheet etc... it's not a matter of standard and optional, the car is supposed to have these safety features and it doesn't... At this point I don't even want to think about a legal case, I just want to talk to the dealer first.

Not sure about Alberta Law, but our bills of sale for used cars all explicitly state: 'As seen and equipped.'

I'd have to see the build sheet. If the build sheet says the car has it, then it has it; however, often there are codes where the option was deleted (usually due to a shortage). Since the car was used, GM certaily won't come to the table (nor should they). It sounds to me like this is more of a mis-understanding.

FYI, in future, if you want to know if the vehicle has ABS (like when you rent a car, for example) look for the master cylinder under the hood and you will see the 'computer' for the ABS system because it has to be located close to the master cylinder to supply the pumping information. (It looks like a silver box with metal pipes coming out of it.)

I can't imagine adding ABS after the fact: the sensors alone would cost a fortune.

[Intrepidation]

I smell a lawsuit as well.

[A Horse With No Name]

I small a lawsuit also. However, autocrossing said car (in the spring) might teach you some good car control skills in the meantime.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I small a lawsuit also. However, autocrossing said car (in the spring) might teach you some good car control skills in the meantime.

Chris

[vonVeezelsnider]

I'd have to read to see if there's any legal precedences but CARBIZ is right on that point at least in Canada methinks... I never expected them to realistically pay to have ABS installed on the car (if that's even possible!). I don't really see any conceivable way the Dealer could make right on it either in reality although anything is possible.

I went down there and showed all of the photocopies of the documents along with my story to our salesman that we've bought cars from since 1989 (that we followed as he went through three dealerships... and he was just as baffled as I, and promised me he would get to the bottom of wtf is going on ASAP- I'll see what happens.

[A Horse With No Name]

Good luck!

Chris

[vonVeezelsnider]

Also incidentally the Brake Master Cylinder and the area around it look just like it does in this 2007 Cobalt SS/SC pictured (which had standard ABS) so maybe the ABS 'computer' is in a different location all together (it was where you say it is on the Cavalier, Malibu and Impala though)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_t5qWcb4byi4/ReEScQcJ...eveland+188.jpg

Edited November 18, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[vonVeezelsnider]

Well I've figured out where the ABS module is supposed to be... and sure enough it's not there. Oh well... Let's see if the dealer plans to do anything under goodwill but I doubt it.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Ok so the dealer called, the salesman is totally confused (When I talked to him on Monday he *insisted* the car had ABS and Trac Control) because of what all the paperwork says but as it would appear at this juncture the ABS system is not installed in any way, according to the dealer technicians.

Now it's time for the negotiating phase to see if they want to make right on it in any way.

[A Horse With No Name]

Like I said before, good luck and keep us posted.

Chris

[vonVeezelsnider]

Well I said I'd update this when something came of it... and sure enough it has.

Salesman's wife had her baby recently and he had taken some time off but he called me today to say the owner of the dealer wants to make their mistake right to the tune of giving me a 2008 Leaseback GM Vehicle in exchange for my current G5. They said they're exploring the options but they're looking for a loaded G5/Cobalt , or perhaps a GP/G6 or even an Impala off of GM's fleet auctions to get down to Calgary and in my driveway ASAP. So I'm more than happy with the outcome.

[A Horse With No Name]

Like I said, keep us posted. Looking forward to drooling over whatever you get to replace the G5.

And if your ever in Columbus, bring it (your new baby) out to the SCCA or Buckeye Miata Club autocross.

We need to show the local Honda boys all the tail-light they can stand...

chris

[daves87rs]

Sounds good!

[vonVeezelsnider]

Sounds good!

You're telling me... It's a real load off my mind now that they have a definite answer for me... It bugs me that I will have been through 3 cars just in 2008 Alone.. But I can deal. I told the salesman whatever he finds it better not be red

[daves87rs]

You're telling me... It's a real load off my mind now that they have a definite answer for me... It bugs me that I will have been through 3 cars just in 2008 Alone.. But I can deal. I told the salesman whatever he finds it better not be red

red?

[MikeyMo84]

You're telling me... It's a real load off my mind now that they have a definite answer for me... It bugs me that I will have been through 3 cars just in 2008 Alone.. But I can deal. I told the salesman whatever he finds it better not be red

just a funny note....my 07 G5 GT says it has leather/heated seats and it doesnt

its ok tho cuz i didnt want or order leather anyway

lesson learned that you never trust the GM VIS Sheet always confirm by looking at the car itself

[vonVeezelsnider]

red?

More or less because my insurance is high enough as it is. Might me a 300/year added premium for a red car.

[CARBIZ]

Isn't that just another urban myth? If you're over 30, it shouldn't matter what color the vehicle is. It's only the young'uns that get hung out to dry for their model, equipment and color choices.

I mean, of course a red CORVETTE is going to have high insurance, but I doubt a 35 year old would pay more for a red Cobalt over a white Cobalt.......................

[daves87rs]

More or less because my insurance is high enough as it is. Might me a 300/year added premium for a red car.

Ahh......

[vonVeezelsnider]

Isn't that just another urban myth? If you're over 30, it shouldn't matter what color the vehicle is. It's only the young'uns that get hung out to dry for their model, equipment and color choices.

Thing is that I *am* under 25... and I checked with my insurance company on this (I'm already paying 5500$/year, even with a squeaky clean driving record, I'd actually pay less insurance with a G6 or Grand Prix than a Cobalt by several hundred dollars, why I don't know). It's true