BIG 3 BUNKRUPTCY

[smk4565]

Yeah that won't be outrageously expensive.

It's a Cadillac, it is supposed to be expensive. Charge $120,000 for it, Lexus gets that for their dumb 20 mpg hybrid.

I agree on people not planning ahead. People wanted big SUVs and houses they couldn't afford and now they are paying for it, I don't feel sorry for people that were irresponsible and are paying for it now. Although I wish people were more responsible and didn't rack up credit card debt or default on home loans to weaken the economy.

Edited November 12, 2008 by smk4565

[Chicagoland]

"335d on sale soon for $44,900 (and tax credit eligible). "

Who the $@!#!# can afford that?? Rich jerks couldn't care less about "the masses". But they will not be able to get thier $44K Beemer when they loose everything too.

Again, so sick of hearing about petty stuff like interior "feel" and 8 speeds. Most people cant afford luxo crap. So since GM doesnt have snob appeal, millions should lose jobs?

[BuddyP]

It's a Cadillac, it is supposed to be expensive.

sorry, missed the "Cadillac" part.

[smk4565]

"335d on sale soon for $44,900 (and tax credit eligible). "

Who the $@!#!# can afford that?? Rich jerks couldn't care less about "the masses". But they will not be able to get thier $44K Beemer when they loose everything too.

Again, so sick of hearing about petty stuff like interior "feel" and 8 speeds. Most people cant afford luxo crap. So since GM doesnt have snob appeal, millions should lose jobs?

Apparently, a lot of people can afford it, the 3-series easily outsold the Cobalt or G6 last month. The 335d costs the same as a CTS, do only rich jerks buy the CTS? Will Cadillac's whole customer base lose everything? Plus the 335d will have a tax credit of $1200-1800 (hasn't been decided yet) and it costs about $700 less per year to fuel than a CTS.

I would agree that many people can't afford luxury cars, but then why did GM bank on GMT900 and Lambda full size SUVs that are $30-50,000, or Hummers and Escalades, while ignoring cars. They never made real threats to the Civic, Corolla, Jetta, Mini, Prius, etc. The Malibu is as close as they have come to the Camry/Accord, but it is only selling half the volume, and they really lagged in that segment in 2002-2006.

GM management made bad decisions. The UAW refused to make concessions for years, thinking that $73 an hour (including benefits) was a reasonable wage for an auto worker, while Toyota and other manufacturers pay half that. Detroit News once interviewed a Delphi forklift operator that makes $103,000 a year, when the national average for that job is $26,000. Why should my tax dollars go to paying a forklift operator $100k a year.

The UAW and GM brought this upon themselves, it is no one else's fault but their own. That being said, I believe they need and will get bailout money, and I am fine with that because the loss of 1-2 million jobs would damage the economy even more. But if they don't change their business model, GM will require government aid EVERY YEAR.

[Robert Hall]

Apparently, a lot of people can afford it, the 3-series easily outsold the Cobalt or G6 last month. The 335d costs the same as a CTS, do only rich jerks buy the CTS? Will Cadillac's whole customer base lose everything? Plus the 335d will have a tax credit of $1200-1800 (hasn't been decided yet) and it costs about $700 less per year to fuel than a CTS.

Everyone I know that has a 3-series leases em... not 'rich people', just normal upper middle class folk. I'd like to see the CTS offered with a diesel and manual in the US, I'd seriously consider one. I like the 3-series for it's driving dynamics but wouldn't buy one--they are too common, too many pricks and poseurs buy them these days, IMHO (and I'm a former BMW owner)... one of the things I like about the CTS is they aren't as common, not the mainstream choice that the 3-series has become.

Edited November 12, 2008 by moltar

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Even if they did go bust, at some point the car market will rise back to 15+ million units a year, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc will have to hire more employees to build that many cars, and jobs will be recreated, just not at UAW wages.

There are so many things wrong with this statement that I won't even bother wasting my breath.

That very mindset is IMO, what will destroy what's left of america.

[regfootball]

From what I've read, I expect Tesla to fold before the end of the year.

has tesla even certified or crash tested any of their designs?

[regfootball]

335d on sale soon for $44,900 (and tax credit eligible). Faster than a DI CTS, costs the same, 10 mpg better.

NICE. oh by the way, diesel was a full dollar higher at the pump the other day. I am sure those diesels will FLY out of the showroom now.

Side note. Ethanol, 1.34 a gallon. Guess my buddy can keep his Avalanche. screw the beemer.

[regfootball]

Everyone I know that has a 3-series leases em... not 'rich people', just normal upper middle class folk. I'd like to see the CTS offered with a diesel and manual in the US, I'd seriously consider one. I like the 3-series for it's driving dynamics but wouldn't buy one--they are too common, too many pricks and poseurs buy them these days, IMHO (and I'm a former BMW owner)... one of the things I like about the CTS is they aren't as common, not the mainstream choice that the 3-series has become.

BMW's aren't even attractive anymore.

I think the XF is the car to have right now if you really want to make a statement. Whenever i happen upon the trendy spots of town, I see new XF's. BMW's are now for followers.

[Robert Hall]

NICE. oh by the way, diesel was a full dollar higher at the pump the other day. I am sure those diesels will FLY out of the showroom now.

Side note. Ethanol, 1.34 a gallon. Guess my buddy can keep his Avalanche. screw the beemer.

Apples vs. oranges--you can't compare a 3-ton full-size truck to a nimble compact sports sedan. Besides, the BMW gets more than twice the mileage of the truck.

Edited November 12, 2008 by moltar

[Robert Hall]

has tesla even certified or crash tested any of their designs?

Don't know, but they have made some deliveries...people are registering and driving 'em (at least in the Bay Area), so unless they got an low-volume exemption, they must have.

Edited November 12, 2008 by moltar

[AAS]

Apples vs. oranges--you can't compare a 3-ton truck to a nimble sports sedan. Besides, the BMW gets more than twice the mileage of the truck.

What you can compare is BMW's diesel vs. gas gains, which aren't as remarkable as the Jetta's gains. So, who cares about the 335d... it doesn't even have an optional manual transmission...

[Robert Hall]

BMW's aren't even attractive anymore.

I think the XF is the car to have right now if you really want to make a statement. Whenever i happen upon the trendy spots of town, I see new XF's. BMW's are now for followers.

The XF is nice, much higher price point than a 3 series, though. For XF money, though, I'd rather have a CLS (style) or an AWD diesel E-class (practicality).

[Robert Hall]

What you can compare is BMW's diesel vs. gas gains, which aren't as remarkable as the Jetta's gains. So, who cares about the 335d... it doesn't even have an optional manual transmission...

NO MANUAL??? Ugh. It's rather pointless without a manual option.

[cletus8269]

I would agree that many people can't afford luxury cars, but then why did GM bank on GMT900 and Lambda full size SUVs that are $30-50,000, or Hummers and Escalades, while ignoring cars. They never made real threats to the Civic, Corolla, Jetta, Mini, Prius, etc. The Malibu is as close as they have come to the Camry/Accord, but it is only selling half the volume, and they really lagged in that segment in 2002-2006.

so let me get this straight, GM is totally at fault for everyone and their brother skipping from vans to SUV's and trucks. Toyota and Honda saw the slice that detroit was getting and out pops tundras, ridgelines, sequoias, pilots and everything else you can imagine. if GM made their money making trucks and suvs its because people were buying them left and right. had they not i am sure people would have been criticising them for that. toyota and honda didnt take a hit like the big 3 cause they started with cars first then added the "gas guzzzlers".

[Robert Hall]

so let me get this straight, GM is totally at fault for everyone and their brother skipping from vans to SUV's and trucks. Toyota and Honda saw the slice that detroit was getting and out pops tundras, ridgelines, sequoias, pilots and everything else you can imagine. if GM made their money making trucks and suvs its because people were buying them left and right. had they not i am sure people would have been criticising them for that. toyota and honda didnt take a hit like the big 3 cause they started with cars first then added the "gas guzzzlers".

I think the difference is level of investment and dependency on the trucks and SUVs... full size trucks and and SUVs were apparently a small investment for Toyota, but GM bet the farm on them. GM is/was (Chrysler even more so) far more dependent on profits from full size trucks and SUVs than the Toyota is/was.

Edited November 12, 2008 by moltar

[smk4565]

What you can compare is BMW's diesel vs. gas gains, which aren't as remarkable as the Jetta's gains. So, who cares about the 335d... it doesn't even have an optional manual transmission...

The engine has 425 lb-ft of torque, and their manual can't handle that, unless they use the SMG 7-speed, which is an option few people would buy since manuals aren't that popular here.

The 335d is supposed to save $700 a year compared to the 335i, plus it gives off far less CO2 emissions.

I'd rather have a Jaguar XF over any car on the market right now. I am looking forward to the XF based coupe and convertible and new XJ that are coming also.

Moltar is right, that GM bet the farm on SUVs, they stopped work on Zeta and some car projects to rush the Silverado and Tahoe to market. One reason why the Camaro still isn't for sale. Toyota and Honda made profit on every small car they sold, plus profit on their trucks, regardless of which way the market went they were diversified. Putting your money in 30 stocks and mutual funds makes more sense than putting it all in 2 or 3.

Edited November 12, 2008 by smk4565

[cletus8269]

toyota and honda didnt take a hit like the big 3 cause they started with cars first then added the "gas guzzzlers".

[CARBIZ]

It's not that simple, boys and girls - and I'll be many of you understand that already. If it were only Toyota/Honda and the other Japanese multis attacking, GM and Ford probably would have done okay, but they've got Audi/BMW/Mercedes eating away at the high end (Buick/Cadillac) and Hyundai/Kia mauling the bottom end (Chevrolet).

For sure GM and Ford were guilty in the '80s of not speculating whether or not Japan Inc was capable of such an assault, but how many people (myself included) looked at the Acura Legend and realized it was as big as MacArthur's beach-head?

The GMT-900s had to be rushed to market, to defend what was then a million unit a year market for GM. If gas prices hadn't spiked and the housing bubble not popped, GM would have had time to roll out its new generation of eco-buggies. The timing has been lousy, but I don't see how scrapping the GMT-900s development in '05 and spending the money on moving up the Cruze, new 'Nox, etc. would have changed things today.

Wagoner & the gang have had to know since '05 that they were racing against the clock, have been down-sizing like fiends, rejiggling UAW contracts, etc. This was one giant poker game since the last brush with bakruptcy in '05, but I guess Fate kept the wild card well hidden.

I find it ironic (as oil drops below $60 a barrel today) that gas is going to get very cheap again but Detroit may not be around in 6 months to reap the benefits of a resurgent market.

[haypops]

That'd be great, but for one who's gonna pay em? Secondly, it's not as easy as just "putting up windmills". Mackinaw power wanted to put about 20 of em up on Oceola county recently but permit was turned down because a few "locals" didn't want to see them out their back window. Same thing happening now in MA, a windfarm based a mile out in the ocean is being protested because a few high class people with homes on the beach "don't want to see them" even though they are a mile out. F'in rediculous if you ask me and sick of it.

Different strokes for different folks and all that, but I find Windmills among the more picturesque man made objects .

[frogger]

The XF is nice, much higher price point than a 3 series, though. For XF money, though, I'd rather have a CLS (style) or an AWD diesel E-class (practicality).

The CLS is quite pricy compared to the XF as well.. XF is priced more like an STS up here anyways. Only the supercharged version is in E-Class pricing territory.

[Robert Hall]

The CLS is quite pricy compared to the XF as well.. XF is priced more like an STS up here anyways. Only the supercharged version is in E-Class pricing territory.

Interesting..the XF is a lot cheaper than I thought it was... I thought it was more in the $65-75k range.

[The O.C.]

I lived there '94-97...it was dying then, probably worse now. Ann Arbor was great, but Detroit looked like a war zone.

Flint.....(or Flint area....Grand Blanc and Fenton) from '88 to '93......then north Oakland County from '93 to '95.

Truly a depressing place to live......even Oakland County was not all that it was cracked up to be. I go back for the auto show every January and can never see myself living there again.

(Although I do confess quite a bit of fun hitting the gay bars in Royal Oak and Detroit.....and one particularly rough gay bar in Detroit, GoldCoast, which has some of the hottest go-go boys in town.....and boy let me tell you about what they offer for a lap dance.....WOW, oh WOW.)

I agree with Moltar.....Ann Arbor is about the only redeeming area I've ever been to in SE MI. (Edit: Royal Oak is actually pretty neat too....if you HAD to live in the immediate Detroit area.)

Actually spent some time on the west coast, Grand Rapids area......and that seems like a world away from SE MI.....actually a nice area....and Grand Rapids seems like quite a nice town. Downtown had lots of bars and restaurants....and condos/lofts with people living down there.

[The O.C.]

The XF is nice, much higher price point than a 3 series, though. For XF money, though, I'd rather have a CLS (style) or an AWD diesel E-class (practicality).

I've never been a fan of the XF. It just doesn't do it for me.

I don't even like the supposed "innovative" interior. The flip-over vents and rising round shifter just scream "gimick" to me. And I don't find the interior especially plush, either.....(another issue I have with the XKs I've sat in.) In fact, I find the CTS to have a much more stylish, and just as well-built interior as the XF.

Plus, XF is really tight inside....tighter than a CTS in my opinion....and the XF gives off the impression of being a much larger car, even if it's not.

Plus, while I don't find it's exterior unattractive, it just doesn't seem to be a Jaguar to me.

[regfootball]

the XF in the flesh is STUNNING.

regarding the 335 diesel. nice, but, now that gas is two bucks, no one will care. just like why now when gas is two bucks, it exposes the prius as a one trick pony.

[Robert Hall]

the XF in the flesh is STUNNING.

regarding the 335 diesel. nice, but, now that gas is two bucks, no one will care. just like why now when gas is two bucks, it exposes the prius as a one trick pony.

It won't stay at 2 bucks though...will be back to $4 or more eventually, I suspect. I'd buy a diesel now.. and remember, the Prius is about clean and green, not just gas mileage.

Edited November 13, 2008 by moltar

[smk4565]

Interesting..the XF is a lot cheaper than I thought it was... I thought it was more in the $65-75k range.

Canadian?

$50-64,000 in US dollars, which I think is a good deal, incredible interior.

[Robert Hall]

Canadian?

$50-64,000 in US dollars, which I think is a good deal, incredible interior.

Yes, I was thinking $65-75k USD...it's cheaper than I thought.

[CARBIZ]

It won't stay at 2 bucks though...will be back to $4 or more eventually, I suspect. I'd buy a diesel now.. and remember, the Prius is about clean and green, not just gas mileage.

But of course demand for oil has dropped 60% in the past 3 months, which is WHY oil has dropped in price by 60%, right?

I am beside myself with vexation right now. Two years ago, we would never have thought $150 a barrel was possible; six months ago, who would have thought we'd be seeing the south side of $60 before Xmas? I really wanna be a free market believer, but the skeptic in me is getting awful suspicious about who is really in charge, or controlling things.

Is this an oil producer/retailer plot to kill the hybrids/alternate fuell vehicles? Has someone cashed in their chips (at $147 a barrel) and made a ton of money? Are the middle class, once again, getting it up the ying-yang?

[Robert Hall]

But of course demand for oil has dropped 60% in the past 3 months, which is WHY oil has dropped in price by 60%, right?

I am beside myself with vexation right now. Two years ago, we would never have thought $150 a barrel was possible; six months ago, who would have thought we'd be seeing the south side of $60 before Xmas? I really wanna be a free market believer, but the skeptic in me is getting awful suspicious about who is really in charge, or controlling things.

Is this an oil producer/retailer plot to kill the hybrids/alternate fuell vehicles? Has someone cashed in their chips (at $147 a barrel) and made a ton of money? Are the middle class, once again, getting it up the ying-yang?

Well, it could be a vast right wing conspiracy...I don't trust the oil companies, Texans, or the Saudis...(a certain well-known GOP Texas political family has known ties to the oil industry and teh Saudis). Could be up to something evil..

Edited November 13, 2008 by moltar

[haypops]

Is this an oil producer/retailer plot to kill the hybrids/alternate fuell vehicles? Has someone cashed in their chips (at $147 a barrel) and made a ton of money? Are the middle class, once again, getting it up the ying-yang?

I assume that it is a combination of high U.S. dollar, decreased demand from world recession, removing some of the speculation, etc. Any one want to add to the list?

This is pretty hard on Russia and very hard on Venezuela and Iran. Too bad (not).

[thegriffon]

The CLS is quite pricy compared to the XF as well.. XF is priced more like an STS up here anyways. Only the supercharged version is in E-Class pricing territory.

Before or after the $10K rebates which are, once again, on offer by the Europeans?

[thegriffon]

I assume that it is a combination of high U.S. dollar, decreased demand from world recession, removing some of the speculation, etc. Any one want to add to the list?

This is pretty hard on Russia and very hard on Venezuela and Iran. Too bad (not).

Speculators aren't panicking about the fuel supply anymore, they're panicking about too many other things.

[balthazar]

I could see the potential for oil to surpass $100/barrel again soon if demand was the same as 12 months ago, but with the speculators hiding and demand way down on top of that, I think we're more likely to see time on the low side of $2 rather than the high side of $3. 90% of the $90 spike in oil ($60-$150) was pure speculation.

Saw an XF last month- the cost cutting at the rear of the car (I was following it a few miles) cheapened the image immensely. Elements of jaguars of yore hard to shake, apparently.

[Bimmer325]

Saw an XF last month- the cost cutting at the rear of the car (I was following it a few miles) cheapened the image immensely. Elements of jaguars of yore hard to shake, apparently.

[regfootball]

prius is a one trick pony. gas mileage/green, whatever, is its only calling card. for performance, interiors, value, handling, nearly all other facets by how which autos are evauated, the prius is easily outlclassed by virtually everything else.

when gas is 2 bucks, it essentially has nothing going for it. you've put yourself in a box.

pretty high level of sacrifice just to show off to your friends that you're green. (yes, you're one of those that contributed to the hype that caused gas to skyrocket in price and kill our enitre economy).

when a 335 diesel, that you have to pay more to buy and a dollar more for each gallon of fuel, you might still have a bimmer at least, but every time you pull into a fuel station you're craning your neck like hell trying to figure out if you even have a chance at being able to fill up. 45 grand for an overweight subcompact with no rear seat space......nice job.

Edited November 13, 2008 by regfootball

[smk4565]

335d averages 30 mpg, 10 more than a CTS or 335i, it more than makes up for the higher cost of diesel. That is Cobalt mileage on a car faster than a CTS DI. They'll bring in some new buyers, GM fans are just jealous that there isn't a 30 mpg CTS on sale right now.

The 3-series outsold the following last month:

Cobalt

G6

entire Buick brand

entire Saturn brand

CTS, DTS, STS, XLR combined

If BMW can make one car charge $45k for it, and outsell 5 combined Saturns that sell for half as much, who has the better business plan?

[aldw]

335d averages 30 mpg, 10 more than a CTS or 335i, it more than makes up for the higher cost of diesel. That is Cobalt mileage on a car faster than a CTS DI. They'll bring in some new buyers, GM fans are just jealous that there isn't a 30 mpg CTS on sale right now.

The 3-series outsold the following last month:

Cobalt

G6

entire Buick brand

entire Saturn brand

CTS, DTS, STS, XLR combined

If BMW can make one car charge $45k for it, and outsell 5 combined Saturns that sell for half as much, who has the better business plan?

The CTS is 5-series sized to begin with, so its silly to compare it to a smaller vehicle, of which the Alpha would be a better point of comparison as long as GM can weather the storm.

[cletus8269]

They'll bring in some new buyers, GM fans are just jealous that there isn't a 30 mpg CTS on sale right now.

i dont know about anyone else but i feel put in my place

[Robert Hall]

335d averages 30 mpg, 10 more than a CTS or 335i, it more than makes up for the higher cost of diesel. That is Cobalt mileage on a car faster than a CTS DI. They'll bring in some new buyers, GM fans are just jealous that there isn't a 30 mpg CTS on sale right now.

The 3-series outsold the following last month:

Cobalt

G6

entire Buick brand

entire Saturn brand

CTS, DTS, STS, XLR combined

If BMW can make one car charge $45k for it, and outsell 5 combined Saturns that sell for half as much, who has the better business plan?

Good points.. I'd love to see Cadillac have a 30+ MPG diesel CTS on sale here now, be better for the brand than the uber-lame Escalade Hybrid...

[smk4565]

The CTS is 5-series sized to begin with, so its silly to compare it to a smaller vehicle, of which the Alpha would be a better point of comparison as long as GM can weather the storm.

Well the alpha doesn't exist, perhaps GM should have developed that instead of making another Hummer or dumping money on Saab. Poor product planning aside, BMW's $45,000 compact outsold the $15,000 Cobalt last month, 9,000 to 6,700. I'd rather sell 9,000 3-series cars and make $405 million than sell 6700 Cobalts and make $100 million.

Since the CTS is sized like a 5-series, why don't they make the base $49,000, $60,000 for a well equipped model and $90,000 for the V-series and make some money off it?

I brought up the 335d in the first place, because if GM had a CTS that got Cobalt XFE mileage, then they'd have a class leading product that could bring in new buyers. Most of GM's products are not all that innovative, they just follow what others have done.

The fact that the 3-series ousells the entire Saturn brand is a signal that GM as too many mediocre models and not enough stars. They need to trim anything that isn't an all-star, and focus on class leaders that they can sell a ton of. The Malibu's sales target should be 450,000 a year with 5% fleet, CTS should be 125,000 a year, 0% fleet, Cruze, 400,000 a year, 5% fleet. That is how to make profit, not by making 4 or 5 rebadges of an average car.

[The O.C.]

The CTS is 5-series sized to begin with, so its silly to compare it to a smaller vehicle, of which the Alpha would be a better point of comparison as long as GM can weather the storm.

Let's say almost 5-series' sized.....

But it's more relevant to compare it to the like-priced 3-series......CTS runs $36K to $50K.....right on top of the 3-series.

[balthazar]

>>"The Malibu's sales target should be 450,000 a year with 5% fleet, CTS should be 125,000 a year, 0% fleet, Cruze, 400,000 a year, 5% fleet. That is how to make profit, not by making 4 or 5 rebadges of an average car. "<<

BMW is 67% fleet sales worldwide -- that's their "business" plan. Should Cadillac follow suit ??

Global 3-series production total in 2007 was 555,219.

Even even at 67% (frankly, I would believe it fleeted at an even higher percentage to balance out the rest of the line), the 3-series only saw 166K retail sales worldwide in '07.

Notice how BMW NEVER releases fleet data in their sales reports.....

Edited November 14, 2008 by balthazar

[smk4565]

>>"The Malibu's sales target should be 450,000 a year with 5% fleet, CTS should be 125,000 a year, 0% fleet, Cruze, 400,000 a year, 5% fleet. That is how to make profit, not by making 4 or 5 rebadges of an average car. "<<

BMW is 67% fleet sales worldwide -- that's their "business" plan. Should Cadillac follow suit ??

Global 3-series production total in 2007 was 555,219.

Even even at 67% (frankly, I would believe it fleeted at an even higher percentage to balance out the rest of the line), the 3-series only saw 166K retail sales worldwide in '07.

Notice how BMW NEVER releases fleet data in their sales reports.....

Only 166k units retail worldwide huh? Since they sold over 120,000 in the US alone, and 0% of that is fleet, they only sold 46,000 3-series at retail worldwide?

BMW is quite profitable, no one can criticize their business because they make money. GM does not make money, they burn it, and they lose all the money that investors put into the company. Now they are a drag that needs taxpayer money to stay in business. BMW isn't the company that needs government money to stay in business.

[Robert Hall]

Only 166k units retail worldwide huh? Since they sold over 120,000 in the US alone, and 0% of that is fleet, they only sold 46,000 3-series at retail worldwide?

BMW is quite profitable, no one can criticize their business because they make money. GM does not make money, they burn it, and they lose all the money that investors put into the company. Now they are a drag that needs taxpayer money to stay in business. BMW isn't the company that needs government money to stay in business.

Those numbers sound flaky to me. I know the UK has a large corporate fleet market, but have no idea bout other countries.

[balthazar]

Sorry- that 67% of BMW going to fleet sales is a GERMANY number, not global, tho Europe in general also seems to run very high in BMW fleet sales as opposed to the U.S.. Curious how the same product can 'play out' in different markets....

[Camino LS6]

Sort of like the way that Benz is a favorite of taxi drivers in third world countries...

[thegriffon]

Benz is German taxis, not third world, although ancient 300s occupy a small nice.

[Camino LS6]

Benz is German taxis, not third world, although ancient 300s occupy a small nice.

They seem to be popular as taxis in the Middle East and Africa.

Countless news clips have formed this impression for me: accuracy unknown.

[smk4565]

They seem to be popular as taxis in the Middle East and Africa.

Countless news clips have formed this impression for me: accuracy unknown.

Because they run forever and they get late 1980s and 1990s Benzes. Especially diesel S-classes, those are good for 300,000+ miles easily.