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Posted

......... sucking Ohio, Ontario, Indiana and Illinois with it, into a black hole.

Posted

Probably... But who cares?!?!?! The "rust belt" doesn't employ many people an the people are ignorant anyway.

Remember, it's only New York and California that count.

(Or at least that's what the media told me)

Posted

If the Detroit big 2 are allowed to go under, we will see a recession worse than the 1928 depression. It amazes me how many people out in the press and in the local area say who cares, let them go under.

Yes I know the executives and UAW are totally to blame, but due to the millions of jobs that are at stake, this country cannot afford to let them go bankrupt. The Tax payers have already bailed out the airline industry and taken on their pentions for the unions, I can see this also happening with the auto industry.

Going to be an interesting first year for Obama.

Posted (edited)
It shouldn't be allowed to happen.

The Detroit 3 and the UAW dug their own grave. In the 70s and 80s they built junk, cashed in, and didn't see the Japanese as a threat. They continue to be mismanaged today; Wagoner (making $15 million a year) has overseen a $73 billion loss since 2004. The economy wasn't that bad in 2004-2006 yet GM lost tons of money. Detroit has been stubborn with big egos and entitlement philosophy for 50+ years, this is the wake up call they needed. They need new management, the current crew can't turn this ship around.

All three won't go bust, they will just downsize, so the Michigan economy may take a hit, but it won't be devastated. Perhaps though some of the bailout money should go to laid off workers, and in retraining them to do new jobs in business segments that have a brighter future than the American auto industry.

Even if they did go bust, at some point the car market will rise back to 15+ million units a year, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc will have to hire more employees to build that many cars, and jobs will be recreated, just not at UAW wages.

Edited by smk4565
Posted

SMK really does live in cloud-cuckoo-land. You know, you're not supposed to eat the lotus-flowers. What exactly do you think autoworkers should be retained to do? Collect cans for recycling? Sell home loans? Plant trees? How exactly is the economy going to recover when no-one has a job? Who is going to buy all those cars from Toyota and Honda when everyone is unemployed? Investing billions in the auto industry is exactly the kind of economic stimulus that was needed even without the cash crisis facing the industry. What else is the government going to do? Upgrade rural road 4 from a pony trail to a 4-lane interstate? Replace the plumbing in the congressional bathrooms with gold fittings?

Posted (edited)

"...In the 70s and 80s they built junk,..."

God I am sooo sick of hearing about ancient history. When will some quit bringing up old times? GM/F/CC are NOT making "junk" and people have to look at the current products! Maybe 'taste masters' don't like "the feel of the interior materials", but that's no reason to lay off hundreds of thousands of workers.

And, if one thinks having only import makes will be 'better'. Just wait for higher prices from less competetion. In fact a brand new car will be a 'luxury item', since many will have "McJobs".

Edited by Chicagoland
Posted
I've been to Michigan, doesn't seem like there is a whole lot left to collapse.

I lived there '94-97...it was dying then, probably worse now. Ann Arbor was great, but Detroit looked like a war zone.

Posted
SMK really does live in cloud-cuckoo-land. You know, you're not supposed to eat the lotus-flowers. What exactly do you think autoworkers should be retained to do? Collect cans for recycling? Sell home loans? Plant trees? How exactly is the economy going to recover when no-one has a job? Who is going to buy all those cars from Toyota and Honda when everyone is unemployed? Investing billions in the auto industry is exactly the kind of economic stimulus that was needed even without the cash crisis facing the industry. What else is the government going to do? Upgrade rural road 4 from a pony trail to a 4-lane interstate? Replace the plumbing in the congressional bathrooms with gold fittings?

They could learn how to build and install windmills, solar panels and hydro electric generators. They could be trained to do other kinds of infrastructure projects like power lines or repairing bridges. Toyota can hire some of them as well. The steel industry in Pittsburgh was before I was born, but this city was dependent on steel like Detroit is on cars, now we don't have a steel industry (aside from US Steel headquarters), yet the local economy is fine, even better than most other parts of the country.

I agree that GM needs a bailout, but this is going to b a one shot deal. If they burn $2 billion a month in cash in 2009, and use up all the government money, they'll just go bankrupt in 2010 and there won't be a second bailout to save them. The bailout will be there, but it is what GM does with it that matters, I fear they will just go about business as usual like they have for the past 4 years.

Posted
"...In the 70s and 80s they built junk,..."

God I am sooo sick of hearing about ancient history. When will some quit bringing up old times? GM/F/CC are NOT making "junk" and people have to look at the current products! Maybe 'taste masters' don't like "the feel of the interior materials", but that's no reason to lay off hundreds of thousands of workers.

Chrysler makes the Avenger and Sebring, that is true junk. Ford has the Ranger and Town Car, GM has the Impala, G5, Trailblazer (although they did a good job getting rid of the grand prix, minivans, etc). They all still have some junk that only rental car agencies want to buy, and even the Malibu and CTS need big incentives to sell.

The past hurts them because those customers that left and went to Honda/Toyota aren't coming back no matter what GM and Ford makes. I know that Ford quality is tied with Honda and Toyota, but most people don't and even if they do, they hold a grudge from being screwed over in the past. Even worse, is it is mainly the baby-boomer crowd that has money that won't consider domestics. My mom is one of them, she won't consider any GM product, even at 50% off, she was screwed in the past and won't go back.

Posted (edited)
Even worse, is it is mainly the baby-boomer crowd that has money that won't consider domestics. My mom is one of them, she won't consider any GM product, even at 50% off, she was screwed in the past and won't go back.

It's not just the boomers...most people I know of my generation (X) and demographic (software professionals) won't even consider domestics...Jeep is about the only brand that has any traction amongst my friends and colleagues of my generation. Acura/Honda, Toyota, Audi, BMW, Nissan/Infiniti, Subaru, etc get their $$$... I feel very much in the minority for owning and liking Big 3 rides..

Edited by moltar
Posted
sorry if this has been covered already, but if the Big 3 declare bankruptcy, does that mean they will go out of business for sure? The two concepts are not inclusive.

No, they can file chapter 11 bankruptcy which allows them to reorganize, gets the creditors off their backs and would allow them to redo labor contracts. They would stay in business throughout the process, and a federal court would oversee the bankruptcy. If they file Chapter 7 bankruptcy, they liquidate everything and close down. Chapter 11 would be any of the Detroit 3's path.

GM will be the first one to run out of money, Ford can survive 2009, GM could be out of money by January.

Posted

well, lets see. if the boomers lose their retirement funds and their children don't have jobs to keep them in the nursing home, then they will love working at culvers. 2 shifts a day, 6 days a week.

Posted
everything i seen says chapter 11 will most assuredly lead to chapter 7

Chapter 11 is their way out of the UAW deal that costs them $2000 more per car. To me this is their best path, combined with government aid. If they just take the bailout money, but continue to burn $2 billion a month, in December 2009 they will be out of money again.

Posted
The Detroit 3 and the UAW dug their own grave. In the 70s and 80s they built junk, cashed in, and didn't see the Japanese as a threat. They continue to be mismanaged today; Wagoner (making $15 million a year) has overseen a $73 billion loss since 2004. The economy wasn't that bad in 2004-2006 yet GM lost tons of money. Detroit has been stubborn with big egos and entitlement philosophy for 50+ years, this is the wake up call they needed. They need new management, the current crew can't turn this ship around.

All three won't go bust, they will just downsize, so the Michigan economy may take a hit, but it won't be devastated. Perhaps though some of the bailout money should go to laid off workers, and in retraining them to do new jobs in business segments that have a brighter future than the American auto industry.

Even if they did go bust, at some point the car market will rise back to 15+ million units a year, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc will have to hire more employees to build that many cars, and jobs will be recreated, just not at UAW wages.

Take a hit? $h!.....shows me just how little you know about Michigan.

1. So Honda/Toyota will hire the workers? What? Robots are the future my friend, not people...

2. All 3 won't go bust, you say? If you knew Sears might go out of business, would you shop there? I'm guessing you won't. Nothing spooks people more in bad times than bad news. The sheer number of companies that go out of business you surely surprise you (not just automakers here)

3. GM is turning around, and it is not there fault about the $h!ty timing with the double hit that we are taking (wall street/ Housing bust)....that, is just bad timing......

Posted
Chapter 11 is their way out of the UAW deal that costs them $2000 more per car. To me this is their best path, combined with government aid. If they just take the bailout money, but continue to burn $2 billion a month, in December 2009 they will be out of money again.

Even if they shake the UAW, how are they going to pay the employees benefits? Or does that go away with the UAW too?

Posted
No, they can file chapter 11 bankruptcy which allows them to reorganize, gets the creditors off their backs and would allow them to redo labor contracts. They would stay in business throughout the process, and a federal court would oversee the bankruptcy. If they file Chapter 7 bankruptcy, they liquidate everything and close down. Chapter 11 would be any of the Detroit 3's path.

GM will be the first one to run out of money, Ford can survive 2009, GM could be out of money by January.

Um, when you are as big of a company as GM, that could be a mess...

Posted (edited)
Chapter 11 is their way out of the UAW deal that costs them $2000 more per car. To me this is their best path, combined with government aid. If they just take the bailout money, but continue to burn $2 billion a month, in December 2009 they will be out of money again.

word on the street is chapter 11 wont be a factor, chapter 7 is more likely the number at the top of that paper stack.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

in the meantime i think i may have to pick up some new shirts from jalopniks store

Save-GM-T-Shirt.jpg

Edited by cletus8269
Posted

in all seriousness, it might be better for the company to file.... (yes i almost totally got out of gm today.)

it's prolly better for the country.... in the long term. we need to really let competition spur this business (and others) and stop all this BS that gets in that way.

I don't want to see it file as much as any of you, I just wish it was still likely they could recover. we can't print our way out of this popped economic bubble, we need better decisions from the top down and the bottom up (in and out of the company)

Posted (edited)
Even if they shake the UAW, how are they going to pay the employees benefits? Or does that go away with the UAW too?

That could all be gone, under chapter 11, they can tear up every contract they had for labor and suppliers.

You say GM is turning it around, but they have lost $73 billion over the past 4 years and this is the worst year, they haven't hit the bottom yet. How are they turning it around, sales are down 45% this year, and they are burning nearly $2 billion a month in cash. Furthermore, they had to cut R&D spending and delay new models, so if the economy does rebound, come 2010/2011 they'll have dated products while other automakers have new ones. They are in crisis mode, not turnaround mode. Can't only blame the economy either, because VW, Toyota, Honda aren't facing bankruptcy. Blame it on the business model that only is adequate under flourishing economic conditions.

Edited by smk4565
Posted
That could all be gone, under chapter 11, they can tear up every contract they had for labor and suppliers.

You say GM is turning it around, but they have lost $73 billion over the past 4 years and this is the worst year, they haven't hit the bottom yet. How are they turning it around, sales are down 45% this year, and they are burning nearly $2 billion a month in cash. Furthermore, they had to cut R&D spending and delay new models, so if the economy does rebound, come 2010/2011 they'll have dated products while other automakers have new ones. They are in crisis mode, not turnaround mode. Can't only blame the economy either, because VW, Toyota, Honda aren't facing bankruptcy. Blame it on the business model that only is adequate under flourishing economic conditions.

GM is not down 45% THIS YEAR. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass. A big chunk of the losses were paper, as they 'wrote off' things like Delphi, etc. By the end of 2010, the new 'Nox, Orlando (or whatever they call it), CTS coupe, CTS wagon, Camaro, Volt and possibly the Cruze will all be in production. It would be 2012 or later before GM's products became horribly dated again. Brazil is also working on a replacement small truck.

As I said, it's only the next several months that are critical. Once the U.S. market rebounds, auto sales will recover. There is no reason to presume 2010 will see 14 million sales - it could roar back to 17 or even 18 million. GM would be in a very good position to grab market share - if it can survive the next couple quarters.

Posted
GM is not down 45% THIS YEAR. Stop pulling numbers out of your ass. A big chunk of the losses were paper, as they 'wrote off' things like Delphi, etc. By the end of 2010, the new 'Nox, Orlando (or whatever they call it), CTS coupe, CTS wagon, Camaro, Volt and possibly the Cruze will all be in production. It would be 2012 or later before GM's products became horribly dated again. Brazil is also working on a replacement small truck.

As I said, it's only the next several months that are critical. Once the U.S. market rebounds, auto sales will recover. There is no reason to presume 2010 will see 14 million sales - it could roar back to 17 or even 18 million. GM would be in a very good position to grab market share - if it can survive the next couple quarters.

Sales are down 45% this year compared to 2007, I didn't make that up, it was on CNBC today.

CTS coupe was delayed 1 year to a 2011 model, as were the 9-4x and 9-5. Buick LaCrosse was delayed to mid-late 2009. The GLK and Q5 will beat the SRX to market, and that segment is already over crowded. Epsilon II Malibu was delayed also, and they don't have replacements in line for the Impala, STS, DTS, Lucerne. GM always says "the new product is coming" "just wait til next year." Problem is, everyone else has new products coming also, the competition doesn't stand still. The Genesis is getting an 8-speed transmission in 2010 or 2011, is the CTS?

GM said the Sky, Aura, Astra would turn around Saturn, they didn't. They said the CTS, G8, Malibu and Lambda trio were going to be class leading and turn things around, and they didn't. Those products are better than what they replaced, but not revolutionary. GM needs revolutionary products to turn it around, and that takes big time R&D dollars which unfortunately they don't have.

I want to see GM on top again, I want to see a 400 hp Cadillac that gets over 30 mpg, a Malibu so good they sell 500,000 a year, and an electric car as fast as a CTS that goes 300 miles on a single charge. A car with an integrated computer and glove box keyboard so traveling business people can surf the internet, type reports or compose email from the passenger seat. The iPhone can do it, why can't a car. How about an e-flex SUV with a solar roof that charges itself in the parking lot, or can power the house when parked in the driveway in the summer.

Posted (edited)
GM always says "the new product is coming" "just wait til next year." Problem is, everyone else has new products coming also, the competition doesn't stand still. The Genesis is getting an 8-speed transmission in 2010 or 2011, is the CTS?

so does that mean they are parroting you when you dscribe cadillac vs bmw? i mean you just said the genesis is getting an 8 sp in _____. which means they dont have it yet but obviously this is a huge oversight for gm because they havent either..

I want to see GM on top again, I want to see a 400 hp Cadillac that gets over 30 mpg, a Malibu so good they sell 500,000 a year, and an electric car as fast as a CTS that goes 300 miles on a single charge. A car with an integrated computer and glove box keyboard so traveling business people can surf the internet, type reports or compose email from the passenger seat. The iPhone can do it, why can't a car. How about an e-flex SUV with a solar roof that charges itself in the parking lot, or can power the house when parked in the driveway in the summer.

now you are just being silly. <_<

Edited by cletus8269
Posted

It has been "Next year country" at GM for quite some time now. Remember how the now-known-to-be-mediocre Cobalt was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread?

GM has made strides, but they were miles behind and their competitors have not been standing still.

GM is an average automaker and as such is good for probably no more than 10% of the US market. Even if they are bailed out they are probably still looking at huge layoffs to get down to the appropriate staffing levels. They need to get rid of most of their brands and a huge number of dealerships.

Bailout VS no bailout the results will probably be largely the same... except that the billions in tax dollars that GM would have funneled straight to their overseas creditors could instead be given directly to the laid off workers or to attract the automakers that are taking share from the big three.

Posted
Sales are down 45% this year compared to 2007, I didn't make that up, it was on CNBC today.

Unless CNBC has a crystal ball that predicts GM selling next to nothing this month, YTD sales change sits at around -21% as of last month.

Posted
Sales are down 45% this year compared to 2007, I didn't make that up, it was on CNBC today.

CTS coupe was delayed 1 year to a 2011 model, as were the 9-4x and 9-5. Buick LaCrosse was delayed to mid-late 2009. The GLK and Q5 will beat the SRX to market, and that segment is already over crowded. Epsilon II Malibu was delayed also, and they don't have replacements in line for the Impala, STS, DTS, Lucerne. GM always says "the new product is coming" "just wait til next year." Problem is, everyone else has new products coming also, the competition doesn't stand still. The Genesis is getting an 8-speed transmission in 2010 or 2011, is the CTS? …

Then either CNBC are idiots ot you need your ears waxed. GM sales were down 45% last month, not this year. The delays you quote are rumor, not fact. GM went to great pains during their dire warning on Friday to point out that most of those models were not being delayed. The GLK and Q5 were always going to beat the SRX to market, and are smaller models in a different segment that has few entrants and few sales.

Posted
so does that mean they are parroting you when you dscribe cadillac vs bmw? i mean you just said the genesis is getting an 8 sp in _____. which means they dont have it yet but obviously this is a huge oversight for gm because they havent either..

now you are just being silly. <_<

Hyundai developing an 8-speed is an example of them trying to innovate, when they offer a 400 hp V8 and 8-speed tranny for CTS or MKS money, Hyundai is going to win over buyers they used to not get. GM needs to constantly innovate so they don't fall behind, and attract new customers.

I am not being silly, integrated computer would be easy, the 7-series has in car internet and Chrysler is doing that also. They could incorporate on-board diagnostics with that so you don't need to go to a dealer to pull a check engine code.

BMW has a car that gets 36 mpg highway and does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds. If Cadillac had some innovation and entrepreneurial spirit, they could easily do something faster and more powerful than a CTS that got well over 30 mpg. Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears. It is possible to engineer a 30+ mpg, sub 5-second 0-60 car. Just like 300 miles on a single battery charge is possible, Tesla already has 200 mile range, GM can't beat a little start-up in California?

Posted
It has been "Next year country" at GM for quite some time now. Remember how the now-known-to-be-mediocre Cobalt was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread?

GM has made strides, but they were miles behind and their competitors have not been standing still.

GM is an average automaker and as such is good for probably no more than 10% of the US market. Even if they are bailed out they are probably still looking at huge layoffs to get down to the appropriate staffing levels. They need to get rid of most of their brands and a huge number of dealerships.

Bailout VS no bailout the results will probably be largely the same... except that the billions in tax dollars that GM would have funneled straight to their overseas creditors could instead be given directly to the laid off workers or to attract the automakers that are taking share from the big three.

Agree with all. The Cobalt was thought to be the savior in 2004.

I know GM needs a bailout, and I believe that they will get one, and the original $25 billion for the Detroit 3 will be increased to $50 billion. (I wonder the Gov't has to borrow that from China?) My question is, what will GM do with the bailout money to fix their problems, and will they be successful. I have little faith in Rick, Lutz, and Co. to actually pull this off.

Posted
Hyundai developing an 8-speed is an example of them trying to innovate, when they offer a 400 hp V8 and 8-speed tranny for CTS or MKS money, Hyundai is going to win over buyers they used to not get. GM needs to constantly innovate so they don't fall behind, and attract new customers.

I am not being silly, integrated computer would be easy, the 7-series has in car internet and Chrysler is doing that also. They could incorporate on-board diagnostics with that so you don't need to go to a dealer to pull a check engine code.

BMW has a car that gets 36 mpg highway and does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds. If Cadillac had some innovation and entrepreneurial spirit, they could easily do something faster and more powerful than a CTS that got well over 30 mpg. Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears. It is possible to engineer a 30+ mpg, sub 5-second 0-60 car. Just like 300 miles on a single battery charge is possible, Tesla already has 200 mile range, GM can't beat a little start-up in California?

I would call going from 1 to 2 gears (did anyone even make a 1-speed?) innovation. I would call adding overdrive innovation. Adding more gears that fall within the same final drive ratio is NOT innovation, it's just an improvement. And, from what I've read, going beyond 6 gears is not even an improvement.

What BMW car (I'm assuming you are refering to a car currently available in NA) gets 36 mpg highway?

Posted
That could all be gone, under chapter 11, they can tear up every contract they had for labor and suppliers.

You say GM is turning it around, but they have lost $73 billion over the past 4 years and this is the worst year, they haven't hit the bottom yet. How are they turning it around, sales are down 45% this year, and they are burning nearly $2 billion a month in cash. Furthermore, they had to cut R&D spending and delay new models, so if the economy does rebound, come 2010/2011 they'll have dated products while other automakers have new ones. They are in crisis mode, not turnaround mode. Can't only blame the economy either, because VW, Toyota, Honda aren't facing bankruptcy. Blame it on the business model that only is adequate under flourishing economic conditions.

Numbers don't mean everything.

Try telling that to millions of homeowners.....

You can't change 30 years of issues overnight.

Posted
Agree with all. The Cobalt was thought to be the savior in 2004.

I know GM needs a bailout, and I believe that they will get one, and the original $25 billion for the Detroit 3 will be increased to $50 billion. (I wonder the Gov't has to borrow that from China?) My question is, what will GM do with the bailout money to fix their problems, and will they be successful. I have little faith in Rick, Lutz, and Co. to actually pull this off.

I'm not seeing how the cobalt was going to save anything.

It was worlds better than the Cavalier that sat on the vine for 10 years.

The Cobalt was supposed to be a stop gap product for a few years until GM updated the issues with the first delta car, the Ion. The Balt was going to get some serious updates after a few years(2007), but it didn't happen.....you can thank te truck line up for that....

The part that killed GM was pouring that money into the truck program, instead of their car lineup....

And the Cobalt itself was not a bad car-though it could have been updated.....

Posted
Hyundai developing an 8-speed is an example of them trying to innovate, when they offer a 400 hp V8 and 8-speed tranny for CTS or MKS money, Hyundai is going to win over buyers they used to not get. GM needs to constantly innovate so they don't fall behind, and attract new customers.

I am not being silly, integrated computer would be easy, the 7-series has in car internet and Chrysler is doing that also. They could incorporate on-board diagnostics with that so you don't need to go to a dealer to pull a check engine code.

BMW has a car that gets 36 mpg highway and does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds. If Cadillac had some innovation and entrepreneurial spirit, they could easily do something faster and more powerful than a CTS that got well over 30 mpg. Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears. It is possible to engineer a 30+ mpg, sub 5-second 0-60 car. Just like 300 miles on a single battery charge is possible, Tesla already has 200 mile range, GM can't beat a little start-up in California?

BUT, Telsa has other issues.....

Posted
I am not being silly

a keyboard for internet and email and whatnot in the glovebox. yes thats silly. they already make it. they call them laptops.

They could incorporate on-board diagnostics with that so you don't need to go to a dealer to pull a check engine code.

while it would be nice to know what the problem is, what would the average person do with said knowledge... take it to the dealership and have them fix it.

Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears.

and they would sell thousands of them... in a healthier economy because the cost would be significant. which wont help GM going bankrupt at all.

Just like 300 miles on a single battery charge is possible, Tesla already has 200 mile range, GM can't beat a little start-up in California?

and tesla hasnt made a dent in its production run with less than 100 of the 1200 spoken for cars built. they are running out of money faster than GM

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/31/el...motors_bailout/

Posted (edited)
What BMW car (I'm assuming you are refering to a car currently available in NA) gets 36 mpg highway?

335d on sale soon for $44,900 (and tax credit eligible). Faster than a DI CTS, costs the same, 10 mpg better.

Edited by smk4565
Posted
Make an aluminum and carbon fiber car with hybrid and diesel or HCCI engine tech, turbos and 8 gears.

Yeah that won't be outrageously expensive.

Posted (edited)
They could learn how to build and install windmills, solar panels and hydro electric generators. They could be trained to do other kinds of infrastructure projects like power lines or repairing bridges. Toyota can hire some of them as well. The steel industry in Pittsburgh was before I was born, but this city was dependent on steel like Detroit is on cars, now we don't have a steel industry (aside from US Steel headquarters), yet the local economy is fine, even better than most other parts of the country.

That'd be great, but for one who's gonna pay em? Secondly, it's not as easy as just "putting up windmills". Mackinaw power wanted to put about 20 of em up on Oceola county recently but permit was turned down because a few "locals" didn't want to see them out their back window. Same thing happening now in MA, a windfarm based a mile out in the ocean is being protested because a few high class people with homes on the beach "don't want to see them" even though they are a mile out. F'in rediculous if you ask me and sick of it.

The blame of the current ecinomical crisis and lack of alt. fuel infrastructure is not the fault of anybody other than ourselves!!!! We "want" all this stuff but either dont' want to pay for it, or dont' want it in our backyards. We "needed" new vehicles and a big house we are barely able to afford paycheck to paycheck. Compete and total lack of future planning because we can't wait or save a little to buy somethings, we need it now so put it on a credit card..... a couple years later, "Oh No, how are we going to pay off this $15k CC dept and pay the house when I've just been layed off!" And with gas, nobody cared what type of vehicles were produced or what they got for milage because gas was 'cheap', but as soon as it hits $4 a gallon all of a sudden it's a crisis.... because NOBODY THOUGHT AHEAD and it's now somebody elses fault. We "Live in the moment" and that's what brought us to where we are today. Also known as greed...... Yeah I'm extremely bitter about the common person's judgment.

Edited by BuddyP

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