BILINGUAL ballot...

[trinacriabob]

I went to vote at about 7:40 this AM. Had to wait about 20 minutes. There was an obvious lesbian couple in front of me (in the conservative suburbs, no less) but we have Prop 8 on our ballot in CA. Guess what? They were NICE to me, believe it or not, and we conversed a little bit, but mostly about the economy and because one of them worked for a homebuilder....and I was dressed in a very conservative coat and tie, so what's that offputting vibe I give off?

They hand me my ballot and HALF of it was in Espanol. Thus, there were equal portions of English and Spanish.

I'm sorry, but part of being a U.S. citizen implies that you speak the language to some rudimentary degree. When my Mom votes, she gets no special ballot, so she studies it ahead of time and seeks the translation. So, considering none of the immigrants from a past era or those who are not represented in large numbers DO NOT get a ballot in their language, yet ARE citizens, then I don't think there should be a bilingual ballot at all. Most people who have pride DO NOT want to be spoon fed, anyway. If there is a country I like to travel to for VACATIONS, for God's sake, I make it a point to learn their language.

These people getting a bilingual ballot LIVE HERE ... day in and day out.

Edited November 5, 2008 by trinacriabob

[Satty]

Its required by law if a certain percent of voters in the district speak a language other than English. Missouri has a law on the ballot today to make English the official language of the state, I'm not sure if it extends to ballots, since I think they're covered by HAVA.

[Paolino]

Uh, Bob?

Quante lingue parli?

Cuantas lenguas hablas?

Combien de des langues parlez-vous?

I could keep going...

... but you get the idea. Get over it.

I have just resolved myself to the fact that this country is becoming more and more Spanish-speaking. Nothing will be done.

And honestly, with something as important as electing the president, wouldn't you want to make sure that people understand EXACTLY what they're filling out?

EDIT: to correct my spelling.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Paolino

[FAPTurbo]

Where's the 'I live in Canada' option?

[Charger4U]

boo hoo. Being exposed to spanish for some reason is perceived as anti american. Give em a break learning a foreign language is hard, im trying to learn spanish right now.

[MikeyMo84]

regardless...no excuse...if u cant speak the language of a country well enough you shouldnt vote in that country

[Satty]

Paulie, I didn't even catch the irony of the guy who posts in foreign languages on here starting this thread. :lol:

[Robert Hall]

boo hoo. Being exposed to spanish for some reason is perceived as anti american. Give em a break learning a foreign language is hard, im trying to learn spanish right now.

It's not easy... I took 4 years of Spanish in HS and college... but it was Spain Spanish, not Arizona Spanish. I want to learn French---want to spend at least a month in France in '10.

[SoCalCTS]

It must be a county by county thing. I know in some areas the ballots are in Spanish, Vietnamese, Tagalog, Chinese and Russian but usually they are separate ballots and not bilingual.

[loki]

polls with 2 questions in them are inherently flawed. just so you know.

[balthazar]

>>"And honestly, with something as important as electing the president, wouldn't you want to make sure that people understand EXACTLY what they're filling out?"<<

With something as important as being involved in the political process, wouldn't you want to make sure that people understood EXACTLY what their president was saying in State of the Union addresses & press conferences ? Or are they already always broadcast in Spanish ?

Communication does wonders for relationships, why is this opposed ? Declare a national language and get everyone on board with it already.

[trinacriabob]

Paulie, I didn't even catch the irony of the guy who posts in foreign languages on here starting this thread.

C'mon, Satty, I'm surprised you find it ironic.

For me, languages are the ultimate hobby. As a kid, I was shuttled back and forth between the US and Europe and went to K-3 overseas in another language, so I would look at the encyclopedia and see how much of the globe we traveled from LA to the Mediterranean... and everything in between. I am a native of this country and very proud of being American, but have an awareness of my European roots...nothing more.

The post was based on the fact that a Greek, an Italian, an Arab, a Czech or a Norwegian immigrant 30, 40 or 50 years didn't get this "luxury." I'm sure the people who are not well represented resent this. This morning, as I voted, I thought about this.

Yeah, it's tough. But at least the alphabet's characters are the same as that of Spanish, whereas, for some languages, they are not.

Edited November 5, 2008 by trinacriabob

[Oracle of Delphi]

Vote Aqui!

[trinacriabob]

Vote Aqui!

Tu eres muy comico, tipo peludo.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Tu eres muy comico, tipo peludo.

Intento, con una pequeña ayuda de mis amigos!

[ocnblu]

Ridiculous. Mine was bilingual. We need an official language law, now.

[CARBIZ]

For the record, I think learning more than one language is a great tool to have. For one thing, it makes you understand your own better. I've been brushing up on my Portuguese once again because we are off to Brazil for a few weeks in February.

I saw on the news last night that in New Mexico (a certain twisted irony in the name alone, I am sure) 40% of the registered voters are Hispanic. I am not against bilingualism on ballots, per se, but let us be clear on one issue: LANGUAGE IS MERELY THE FLASHPOINT TO THE MUCH GREATER ISSUE THAT WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK OF.

You guys south of the border only need to look to your northern neighbors to see where your country will be in twenty years: hopelessly fractured and in a downward spiral. The English/French divide that Canada has suffered for 200 years has created a wedge issue whereby since no one culture can dominate (as is in our Constitution), then all cultures are equally valid. This is creating an increasingly untenable situation with respect to the Aboriginals (who above all others lay claim to everything in Canada) and now to newcomers as well. We cannot defend Canadian 'culture' because we cannot define it. If we try, automatically Quebec is offended, then the Aboriginals weigh in and the entire discussion degenerates into a racist shouting match.

Make no mistake, if the United States is not unified by one over-riding culture and sense of shared values, it will fall into the same trap that Belgium and now Canada are sinking into. Take a look at your population growth: in 25 years Hispanics will be nearly on par with the general 'Euro' population.

All of you should be learning Spanish. It will be your official language in 25 years.

[trinacriabob]

All of you should be learning Spanish. It will be your official language in 25 years.

Biz,

I already speak it fluently. I took it in college (univ. in Canadian talk). I took it for an easy "A" and so I could use it on vacation in Spain and Argentina, not to have a discussion over a fender-bender with an illegal alien or order a BK Veggie without onions....this one squatty Mexican chick kept screwing up my order so I finally raised my voice and said "Sin cibolla, entiende?" She got it...ON HER TERMS.

Edited November 5, 2008 by trinacriabob

[loki]

english is missouri's language now for all official political stoof.......starting next year i guess.

[pow]

boo hoo. Being exposed to spanish for some reason is perceived as anti american. Give em a break learning a foreign language is hard, im trying to learn spanish right now.

+1

My grandparents will likely never be able to read English, but they are Americans and their votes deserve to be counted nonetheless.

For the record, I think learning more than one language is a great tool to have. For one thing, it makes you understand your own better. I've been brushing up on my Portuguese once again because we are off to Brazil for a few weeks in February.

I saw on the news last night that in New Mexico (a certain twisted irony in the name alone, I am sure) 40% of the registered voters are Hispanic. I am not against bilingualism on ballots, per se, but let us be clear on one issue: LANGUAGE IS MERELY THE FLASHPOINT TO THE MUCH GREATER ISSUE THAT WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK OF.

You guys south of the border only need to look to your northern neighbors to see where your country will be in twenty years: hopelessly fractured and in a downward spiral. The English/French divide that Canada has suffered for 200 years has created a wedge issue whereby since no one culture can dominate (as is in our Constitution), then all cultures are equally valid. This is creating an increasingly untenable situation with respect to the Aboriginals (who above all others lay claim to everything in Canada) and now to newcomers as well. We cannot defend Canadian 'culture' because we cannot define it. If we try, automatically Quebec is offended, then the Aboriginals weigh in and the entire discussion degenerates into a racist shouting match.

Make no mistake, if the United States is not unified by one over-riding culture and sense of shared values, it will fall into the same trap that Belgium and now Canada are sinking into. Take a look at your population growth: in 25 years Hispanics will be nearly on par with the general 'Euro' population.

All of you should be learning Spanish. It will be your official language in 25 years.

The population growth among Latinos will be from raising families, not new immigrants... and children of immigrants assimilate pretty much instantly in the US. From what I see, that generation shares the same culture and shared values as everybody else. This ain't Canada.

[Satty]

I found it ironic because on C&G, people can open a thread about cars and find a couple of members posting in foreign languages, taking away from the usefulness of the thread. Thats far more irritating than having two languages on a ballot you look at every four years.

Since the Latino vote went to Obama, I expect Republicans to try to make English the country's official language, which would be pretty un-American. Might as well take down the Statue of Liberty's tablet.

[ocnblu]

English should be our official language. Why does it even have to be said?

[Satty]

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...but only if they speak English

I dont think they can add that to the tablet.

[Chris_Doane]

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...but only if they speak English

I dont think they can add that to the tablet.

Oh I don't know...I hear laser engraving is quite good these days.

[ocnblu]

Satty, what are you yammering about? I am talking about people who make NO EFFORT to assimilate into our culture by learning English and speaking it to do business. In my business, I run into this problem too often. The onus is on THEM to get up to speed, not on ME, a natural born citizen.

[Satty]

My generation doesn't have the same sense of entitlement as yours does apparently.

[ocnblu]

What an unpatriotic thing to say in reference to this topic.

[Croc]

regardless...no excuse...if u cant speak the language of a country well enough you shouldnt vote in that country

Does that argument extend to dyslexics? That's a portion of the population that, depending on the severity and degree of it, has real problems comprehending written text. Are they less of Americans, and therefore shouldn't be allowed to vote?

What about blind people? Would you balk at a Braille ballot?

Get over yourself.

[Croc]

My generation doesn't have the same sense of entitlement as yours does apparently.

+1

[Satty]

You said it yourself, things should be your way because you hit the random genetic jackpot and were born within the borders of one country instead of another and they weren't. Thats not a warped sense of entitlement?

[Croc]

What an unpatriotic thing to say in reference to this topic.

No, what's unpatriotic is to stand on a soapbox for tolerance in many cases, but exclude other instances involving already disadvantaged minority populations. You think those Mexican-Americans are having one big party being in a country where the vast majority of everything is in English and they can't read a damn thing?

Anything treating different groups of people as different classes of citizens is unpatriotic if you've ever even just skimmed over the Constitution.

[ocnblu]

Perhaps I was wrong to assume ENGLISH WAS YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE. What I am trying to say, and I think it was in plain English, is I have a problem with people NOT MAKING ANY KIND OF EFFORT TO LEARN ENGLISH IN AN ENGLISH SPEAKING COUNTRY. AND, on top of that... I have a problem with the enablers who insist on kowtowing to Spanish speakers in the USA! When my people came here from Germany in the 1840's, they knew it was imperative to learn the language of the people in the country they were risking everything to move to. And they were successful. They started a brickyard that became the largest in the Lancaster, PA area... the majority of the oldtown rowhomes in this city are built with bricks bearing my family name. Do you even think for one minute they could have been anywhere near as successful if they'd insisted on speaking German... and expecting Americans to learn German in order to communicate with them? Don't be ridiculous!

[Satty]

Native Spanish speakers find English difficult to learn, because our language is ass-backwards from theirs. Disenfranchising someone because of this is terribly un-American. Relegating a person to a lower status because of this is terribly un-American.

[ocnblu]

Too bad, so sad for them.

[Croc]

Perhaps I was wrong to assume ENGLISH WAS YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE.

Huh?

What I am trying to say, and I think it was in plain English, is I have a problem with people NOT MAKING ANY KIND OF EFFORT TO LEARN ENGLISH IN AN ENGLISH SPEAKING COUNTRY.

And how exactly do you measure effort? How many foreign languages do you speak fluently? I'd love to know the answer to that one.

AND, on top of that... I have a problem with the enablers who insist on kowtowing to Spanish speakers in the USA!

Kowtowing? Who's "kowtowing"? I see very limited efforts at accomodation, but almost no "kowtowing." Maybe you do not know the meaning of the word?

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

kow⋅tow

   /ˈkaʊˈtaʊ, -ˌtaʊ, ˈkoʊ-/ [kou-tou, -tou, koh-]

–verb (used without object)

1. to act in an obsequious manner; show servile deference.

So you're really telling me that there are "enablers" (to what, exactly? Enabling people to not have to learn English to survive for a day in America?) showing "servile deference" to non-English speakers? Really? Servile deference? Is that your final answer?

When my people came here from Germany in the 1840's, they knew it was imperative to learn the language of the people in the country they were risking everything to move to. And they were successful. They started a brickyard that became the largest in the Lancaster, PA area... the majority of the oldtown rowhomes in this city are built with bricks bearing my family name. Do you even think for one minute they could have been anywhere near as successful if they'd insisted on speaking German... and expecting Americans to learn German in order to communicate with them? Don't be ridiculous!

Thanks for the lovely bedtime story. Sounds like your ancestors were just wonderful Horatio Algers!

That said...when do non-English speakers expect Americans to learn their language to comunicate with them? I've never met a non-English speaker who didn't feel embarrassed and ashamed when it occurred that he/she and I could not communicate well.

How would you feel if you tried to say something to people every day, and 1 out of 10 just gave you a blank stare in return? You wouldn't feel frustrated and inferior? Really?

Try to think outside your bubble sometimes.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Croc

[Satty]

Too bad, so sad for you. Next time you vote, it will be on a bilingual ballot. Unless you use touch screen, then you'll have to press "1" for English.

[ocnblu]

Perhaps my bubble, like yours, is impenetrable. And yes, it is my final answer. I see it every day. Kowtowing. Edited November 6, 2008 by ocnblu

[Satty]

Perhaps my bubble, like yours, is impenetrable.

Hehehe...I just thought of a dirty joke.....

[ocnblu]

Let's hear it!

[Croc]

Too bad, so sad for them.

Too bad, so sad for all the gay people who were hoping Prop 8 would fail in California. Clearly the people have spoken, and unless you hit the genetic jackpot and are born straight, you are not entitled to complete happiness with the person you love. Maybe you should move to a country that actually allows it, instead of trying to make us kowtow to your homosexual agenda.

The above is why it is of utmost importance to stand up for a disenfranchised minority...because your minority group might be next, and who will stand up for you?

"Too bad, so sad for them" could have been applied to so many things throughout history: the Jews in the Holocaust, African-Americans throughout pretty much ALL of US history, or homosexuals during the AIDS epidemic.

Apathy sucks.

[Nick]

According to immigration laws, in order to obtain citizenship a legal immigrant must have the ability to read, write and speak ordinary English unless they are physically unable to do so due to a disability such as being blind or deaf, or suffer from a developmental disability or mental impairment.

[trinacriabob]

According to immigration laws, in order to obtain citizenship a legal immigrant must have the ability to read, write and speak ordinary English unless they are physically unable to do so due to a disability such as being blind or deaf, or suffer from a developmental disability or mental impairment.

All right, Nick, where've you been? I knew you'd process this as such. +1

My problem is that some of them don't even try. And with bilingual EVERYTHING, there's no need to. As the old adage goes, "Give an inch, take a mile." Anybody over 20 years of age has seen MANY examples of this in various aspects of their lives...or they're living in a vacuum.

I'm not from Utah. I was born and raised in LA. My best grammar school friends were Cuban. My (4) best high school friends were Cuban, Italian, Irish and Japanese. My best college friend was Mexican-American. The parents of the Hispanic ones spoke with an accent but managed to learn English, though it was comical - "eschool," "eskiing" and "Esteve McQueen." But they could read, write and speak basic English.

I think that those of us who have this so called "entitlement" issue have roots in places in the globe for which NO concessions were granted to our ancestors who crossed the ocean to get here.

[CARBIZ]

Wow, emotions run high - and I suppose that is a good thing. Frankly, the liberal side of me wants to believe that opening the floodgates to immigration is a good thing and that those coming here will see that the 'American' (or 'Canadian') Way is the better way.

That is certainly the way I felt 20 years ago. I don't feel that way any more, and that is coming from both a gay person who is a minority and the partner of a recent immigrant. Oddly, many of our immigrant friends feel the same way! In fact, we had two Brazilian friends go home not too long ago, complaining that there were 'too many Asians' in Toronto.

All I know (and I have posted this before) is that the internet, $5 phone cards and cheap air travel has diluted what it means to be 'American' or 'Canadian' these days. OCN, you refer to your German ancestors and what we don't understand is that 140 years ago they had no choice but to assimilate. When they left their homeland, they would never see it again. There were no phones, no internet and no possibility of returning. Immigrants today (for the most part) are a different breed. They are not commited to their new homeland; in fact, many readily admit they would prefer to retire in their homeland or even return their once they've accumulated enough money.

My blood nearly boiled over a few months ago when I read an article about a Cuban expatriate who has lived in Canada for 40 years and he was rejoicing Castro's ill-health so he could soon 'go home.' Go home? This guy is a successful architect in Canada and has lived here 40 f'ing years, but doesn't consider this home?

You guys south of the border can laugh and say that 'this isn't Canada,' but our problem is because there are too many different kinds of immigrants that simply don't get along with each other, let alone 'Canadians;' your troubles are going to be just as bad when in a matter of 25 years or so there are 100 million Hispanics, clustered mostly in a half dozen states and only 250 million 'others,' scattered across the other 40 odd states. One cannot safely assume they are going to become 'American,' not when entire neighborhoods - nay, cities become predominantly Spanish. Even in Toronto, there are entire neighborhoods where ethnic groups conduct their entire lives in their own culture. Once they reach a critical mass, they simply don't need the rest of us.

This may sound like fear mongering, and I desperately hope I am wrong, but one of the advantages of being 47 is that I have seen the changes with my own eyes, and whether it is car related (like how awful Toronto's traffic is) or regarding the general decline of the world around me, there are some things that no study can quantify. Culture is emotional and unlike previous generations of immigrants that had no choice but to adapt, more recent immigrants don't have to. Only time will tell, but the scary part is that if I am correct, then by the time we realize what has happened, it will be all over.

[tmp]

I live in Cali and I didn't even notice if it was in any other language. I don't care if it is. If you're going to give someone the right to vote, I would prefer that the instructions on what they're voting for are clear to them. I can skip over the Spanish and the stuff that looks likes hierolgyphics

Now if you want to argue that you shouldn't have to pay for the cable stations that are in a foreign language, I'm right there with you. As long as I can add in the Shopping Channel, ESPN and all those Trinity Broadcasting stations..

[trinacriabob]

My blood nearly boiled over a few months ago when I read an article about a Cuban expatriate who has lived in Canada for 40 years and he was rejoicing Castro's ill-health so he could soon 'go home.' Go home? This guy is a successful architect in Canada and has lived here 40 f'ing years, but doesn't consider this home?

No, no, I hear what you're saying. And that's why I regard Canada as very similar...a previous entity of the British crown that now takes in people from all over the world...What does the inscription on the Peace Arch at Blaine WA/Surrey BC say? "Children of a Common Mother."

That being said, a lot of people still view their place of birth as home. My father wanted to live out his last years and be put into the ground in Italy. It didn't happen as planned. He never made it back.

And then you know what happens when they do get back to the motherland? They experience huge cognitive dissonance. For my father, it was "sheez, these damn Italians are bureaucratic pompous messes" counterbalanced by "sheez, the people here are REAL...I can relate to them." When in America, it was "well everything runs well here and is so organized," but "damn, '(Nordic/Aryan)' types are so sterile," so they mostly associated with other "high-drama" immigrants, unless they knew the parents of other nationalities via us kids in school.

Let the successful architect go back to Cuba. He'll be doing "Toronto-Havana-Toronto" on the plane a lot.

Not being immigrants, I don't think we can fully relate. However, if I don't like a country, I don't go there. And if I like it enough to go there, I try to immerse myself in their ways. It's funny how easily I've made friends, or just found people who have treated me extremely well, in the places I've enjoyed traveling to.

Edited November 6, 2008 by trinacriabob

[AAS]

Didn't we already cover this in the "I hate (Latino) immigrants" thread a while back? Why the hell are we discussing it again? And once more... It's not only Spanish. I saw "polling place" signs in languages other then English and Spanish...

[Croc]

According to immigration laws, in order to obtain citizenship a legal immigrant must have the ability to read, write and speak ordinary English unless they are physically unable to do so due to a disability such as being blind or deaf, or suffer from a developmental disability or mental impairment.

What about children born in the US? They get US citizenship.

[Enzora]

How dare they make me skip a line while reading?!

Seriously, Bob? Are you that afraid of change?

Especially when it comes to ballots. We have enough people who screw them up when English is their native language; even if they have learned English, I'd rather native Spanish speakers vote on a ballot written in Spanish, just to avoid any possible confusion.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Enzora

[Oracle of Delphi]

I think everything should be in German!

[Nick]

What about children born in the US? They get US citizenship.

What about them?