VUE TWO MODE HYBRID FIRST DRIVE

[regfootball]

http://jalopnik.com/5067841/2009-saturn-vu...rid-first-drive

Kind of a cheesy writeup, not sure how legit, but its something.....

[loki]

28/31 is quite good.

this would be great to replace my family's van/truck and still beable to tow our boat...

[regfootball]

i know two people who have been waiting for this thing to come out. one of them, specifically because of the blend between mpg and towability.

[loki]

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121909 if that's correct.... the 3.6 should be replacing the 4.3 ...since the other ohv v6s are dying a slow death too.

[FAPTurbo]

Why does GM insist on the dumb 'HYBRID' stickers on their dual-mode vehicles? God, it looks tacky.

[regfootball]

Why does GM insist on the dumb 'HYBRID' stickers on their dual-mode vehicles? God, it looks tacky.

YEAH, REALLY BAD, ACTUALLY. WHO ARE THE RETARDS AT GM WHO FIGURED ON THAT?

[PurdueGuy]

Yeah, the badges are fine, but the big graphics along the bottom of the side are cheese. I'd probably get a greenline badge for it, too. I can understand that they didn't like the long name "Saturn Vue Green Line Two Mode Hybrid", but I liked the Red Line / Green Line thing in general.

[Croc]

I agree with the reviewer that this should also be available with a 4. Honestly, GM is so backward in their hybrid thinking with regards to product segmentation.

[enzl]

I agree with the reviewer that this should also be available with a 4. Honestly, GM is so backward in their hybrid thinking with regards to product segmentation.

How about AWD in a CUV as well? Ford's been doing it for years with the Escape.

[siegen]

I seem to recall someone else trying the expensive performance V6 hybrid thing before. How did that go again?

[regfootball]

people, the 4 cyl vue hybrid is a value offering, BAS+ and low price = 30 mpg = great buy

the dual mode was developed with the 3.6 and 6 cylinder, don't you recall, this may go into other cars with the same powertrain (i.e. lambdas) where they need to utilize its touring prowess.

[enzl]

people, the 4 cyl vue hybrid is a value offering, BAS+ and low price = 30 mpg = great buy

the dual mode was developed with the 3.6 and 6 cylinder, don't you recall, this may go into other cars with the same powertrain (i.e. lambdas) where they need to utilize its touring prowess.

Which makes two more good reasons why this product is a waste of time, money and effort from a company that can ill afford it.

Modern, high profit CUV's like the Lambdas make a hell of alot more sense than this application?

[regfootball]

Holy crap you are a crab ass.

THE BAS 4 cylinder was developed concurrently with the epsilon sedans. it was added to the vue to help amortize the cost of the BAS.

The Lambadas will eventually get the dual mode tech to amortize that as well. You can't limit that tech to ONE model.

The Vue is Saturn's feature product. If you go back the last few years, its their best selling model most likely.

When these products were developed, it was with the premise that CUV's would be a booming segment, and Saturn would be the image brand to do that.

BAS1 is the first step. BAS2 is the second step which will arrive soon.

If you compare the purchase price and mpg of the Vue BAS to the Escape hybrid, you see it has tangible advantages and disadvantages. One thing it does do, it allows hybrid tech at a cheaper price. For 09 with the revisions made recently, this farily good sized CUV should get a person 30 mpg in normal driving. unheard of for a solid, good handling vehicle with cargo space.

As far as the dual mode, its a two pronged approach. introduce the dual mode in a lesser price vehicle so sticker shock (see Tahoe) does not factor in with the lambadas. Sell the Vue dual mode for the same price as the escape hybrid. It should get near the equal mileage and have big functional advantages and performance advantages. Note: the escape hybrid is a pretty damn nice piece itself.

PERHAPS the part you are coming up sniffing fumes on is that to develop the 3.6/dual mode sysmte, they need to amortize its use over several vehicles and MAYBE the Vue was chosen first because its probably one of the largest volume vehicles they were considering it in. ALSO, if you note the TOWING CAPACITY (something they maybe felt would be a marketing advantage in this segment) for the Vue will be quite good and part of the dual mode's sell is that its superior for towing because of its

DUAL

MODE

30 mpg and hot rod performance from a CUV that can tow the snot better than some larger vehicles and is priced less than the SLOWER RDX (which uses twice as much fuel).

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

the reason the accord v6 hybrid was a waste, its performance was no better than competitions non hybird v6, and it was not a desirable vehicle for much else other than as an appliance. its price did not justify its advantages. in other words, a typical honda. go beyond the LCD and you move on from the big ugly H.

a 4 cylinder vue as escape hybrid prices would not sell. a BAS 4 popper at 5-10 grand less with 93% the mpg will. the 6 cylinder is introed on the vue and then other vehicles to spread it across the line. the vue was the best chance for them to kick off this powertrain and showcase the TOWING ABILITY.

by the way, the reg vue 4 cylinders after break in are seeing close to the same mpg real world as the slow as sh-t CRV.

Edited October 27, 2008 by regfootball

[pow]

I, for one, do not get GM's light-hybrid pricing strategy.

The merits of the BAS system were initially low cost and high flexibility, which would allow for greater volume across a greater model range. It was an affordable hybrid system for the masses, a way to go green without going broke.

But currently all GM light-hybrids have "very limited availability" and are priced nearly as much as the full-hybrid competition, which get significantly better city fuel economy.

VUE Hybrid - 25 mpg, city

$28,625 ($27,075 w/ tax credit)

Escape Hybrid - 34 mpg, city

$30,030 ($27,030 w/ tax credit)

AURA Hybrid - 26 mpg, city

$26,685 ($25,285 w/ tax credit)

Camry Hybrid - 33 mpg, city

$26,870 (no tax credit)

Altima Hybrid - 35 mpg, city

$27,345 ($24,995 w/ tax credit)

The full-hybrid competition also are much more powerful (2+ seconds quicker to 60), and all of them are PZEVs (the light-hybrids aren't).

[regfootball]

factor in rebates and discounts and there is a definite price advantage. however, all of GM's MSRP's are way too high.

altima is not 50 state BTW.

you cannot find a base optioned escape hybrid and other escape hybrids on the market have dealer markups. expect to pay 33-35k. two years ago you could find an escape hybrid with discounts.

personally i think its ok GM limits the output of the first gen BAS cars since they are working on BAS2.

[enzl]

Holy crap you are a crab ass.

THE BAS 4 cylinder was developed concurrently with the epsilon sedans. it was added to the vue to help amortize the cost of the BAS.

The Lambadas will eventually get the dual mode tech to amortize that as well. You can't limit that tech to ONE model.

The Vue is Saturn's feature product. If you go back the last few years, its their best selling model most likely.

When these products were developed, it was with the premise that CUV's would be a booming segment, and Saturn would be the image brand to do that.

BAS1 is the first step. BAS2 is the second step which will arrive soon.

If you compare the purchase price and mpg of the Vue BAS to the Escape hybrid, you see it has tangible advantages and disadvantages. One thing it does do, it allows hybrid tech at a cheaper price. For 09 with the revisions made recently, this farily good sized CUV should get a person 30 mpg in normal driving. unheard of for a solid, good handling vehicle with cargo space.

As far as the dual mode, its a two pronged approach. introduce the dual mode in a lesser price vehicle so sticker shock (see Tahoe) does not factor in with the lambadas. Sell the Vue dual mode for the same price as the escape hybrid. It should get near the equal mileage and have big functional advantages and performance advantages. Note: the escape hybrid is a pretty damn nice piece itself.

PERHAPS the part you are coming up sniffing fumes on is that to develop the 3.6/dual mode sysmte, they need to amortize its use over several vehicles and MAYBE the Vue was chosen first because its probably one of the largest volume vehicles they were considering it in. ALSO, if you note the TOWING CAPACITY (something they maybe felt would be a marketing advantage in this segment) for the Vue will be quite good and part of the dual mode's sell is that its superior for towing because of its

DUAL

MODE

30 mpg and hot rod performance from a CUV that can tow the snot better than some larger vehicles and is priced less than the SLOWER RDX (which uses twice as much fuel).

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

the reason the accord v6 hybrid was a waste, its performance was no better than competitions non hybird v6, and it was not a desirable vehicle for much else other than as an appliance. its price did not justify its advantages. in other words, a typical honda. go beyond the LCD and you move on from the big ugly H.

a 4 cylinder vue as escape hybrid prices would not sell. a BAS 4 popper at 5-10 grand less with 93% the mpg will. the 6 cylinder is introed on the vue and then other vehicles to spread it across the line. the vue was the best chance for them to kick off this powertrain and showcase the TOWING ABILITY.

by the way, the reg vue 4 cylinders after break in are seeing close to the same mpg real world as the slow as sh-t CRV.

If you're telling me a VUE needed 2 hydrid versions while other product with the same engine AND higher price points could have been used....then I cannot accept your explanation.

2 CUV's that don't have a AWD option---that makes the decision even more indefensible, IMO (Full disclosure: my wife wants to lease a Hybrid w/AWD---she likes the VUE---she won't buy w/o AWD, period---the VUE is such a pig, there's no 4 cyl AWD, either).

I'm not crabby, just real. I've been 100% spot on---unfortunately. If GM seeks to lead, a 6 cylinder hybrid VUE w/o AWD is simply dumb.

A CTS hybrid? yes. A Lambda - available yesterday? yes. How about a Saab? Hell yes.

Another VUE with no AWD, no USP vs. Escape & a limited audience at Saturn dealerships? DUMB. And an excellent example of why GM is in the toilet--it's hybrid strategy is nowhere--

You can put a candle on a pile of sh!t, but please don't try to tell me its a birthday cake.

I thought that the fear of GM's ultimate demise now being a real, actual reality (not just something I was repeatedly accused of 'making up'), you guys might think about some critical, creative, constructive criticism. I guess I'm a little too optimistic!

Edited October 29, 2008 by enzl

[PurdueGuy]

If you're telling me a VUE needed 2 hydrid versions while other product with the same engine AND higher price points could have been used....then I cannot accept your explanation.

2 CUV's that don't have a AWD option---that makes the decision even more indefensible, IMO (Full disclosure: my wife wants to lease a Hybrid w/AWD---she likes the VUE---she won't buy w/o AWD, period---the VUE is such a pig, there's no 4 cyl AWD, either).

I'm not crabby, just real. I've been 100% spot on---unfortunately. If GM seeks to lead, a 6 cylinder hybrid VUE w/o AWD is simply dumb.

A CTS hybrid? yes. A Lambda - available yesterday? yes. How about a Saab? Hell yes.

Another VUE with no AWD, no USP vs. Escape & a limited audience at Saturn dealerships? DUMB. And an excellent example of why GM is in the toilet--it's hybrid strategy is nowhere--

You can put a candle on a pile of sh!t, but please don't try to tell me its a birthday cake.

I thought that the fear of GM's ultimate demise now being a real, actual reality (not just something I was repeatedly accused of 'making up'), you guys might think about some critical, creative, constructive criticism. I guess I'm a little too optimistic!

The important question is, how many other people are going to be interested in a hybrid Vue with AWD? I agree with others about having doubts about how well the 2wd 2mode 6cyl will sell. Most of the people buying hybrids want nothing but the best fuel economy. 6cyl already hurts that. AWD would hurt it more. You've said your wife would buy it, that's not nothing, but the question is how many others would? I don't know the answer to that, but I think it may be presumptuous to say that because it's what your wife wants, that it would be a wise move by GM. I do think it is something they should be looking into, because it could be applicable to the lambdas as well, and if it'll sell, they should look into it. Who knows - maybe it's in the works. Of course, knowing how well GM keeps it's development programs secret, I think we would have heard something if it was, so it's probably not.

[regfootball]

If you're telling me a VUE needed 2 hydrid versions while other product with the same engine AND higher price points could have been used....then I cannot accept your explanation.

2 CUV's that don't have a AWD option---that makes the decision even more indefensible, IMO (Full disclosure: my wife wants to lease a Hybrid w/AWD---she likes the VUE---she won't buy w/o AWD, period---the VUE is such a pig, there's no 4 cyl AWD, either).

I'm not crabby, just real. I've been 100% spot on---unfortunately. If GM seeks to lead, a 6 cylinder hybrid VUE w/o AWD is simply dumb.

A CTS hybrid? yes. A Lambda - available yesterday? yes. How about a Saab? Hell yes.

Another VUE with no AWD, no USP vs. Escape & a limited audience at Saturn dealerships? DUMB. And an excellent example of why GM is in the toilet--it's hybrid strategy is nowhere--

You can put a candle on a pile of sh!t, but please don't try to tell me its a birthday cake.

I thought that the fear of GM's ultimate demise now being a real, actual reality (not just something I was repeatedly accused of 'making up'), you guys might think about some critical, creative, constructive criticism. I guess I'm a little too optimistic!

criticism of no AWD is legitimate. on the 6. i dont think 4 cylinder CUV's really benefit much this size from AWD.

CTS hybrid? i dont think that's needed. show me where the Lexus of the world have received net positive benefit from having hybrids. The LS took a beating in the press for having poor mpg and performance with all sorts of weight penalty. saab, not even sure about that. saab has other product issues that require work prior to expanding them into hybrids. Lambdas? again, the dual mode was developed so one day it goes into the Lambdas. The Tahoe hybrid came first, the Vue got the 3.6 dual mode so a Lambda hybrid would not clash in the showroom with the similarly priced Tahoe.

The Vue might be heavy, but drive one and you get it. It feels rock solid on the road. It doesn't feel flimsy as does the forester and rav4. No one with a 4 cylinder CUV is getting much benefit, as real world mpg with AWD and 4 seldom eclispses 23-25 mpg.

2004 86,957

2005 91,972

2006 88,581

2007 84,767

sales sumbers for each model year of the vue. in today's segmented market, that's not bad. its perfectly right to bring out the hybrid technologies in saturns signature model.

You lambast GM for not putting the hybrid in the large lambda but you're probably also contradicting yourself by now saying that the full size trucks shouldn't have gotten hybrids. those who say 'its pointless to put them in an expensive full size truck' still applies because the lambdas are pretty much close to the tahoe in size and weight. Hmmm, maybe GM thought that here........it's ok for the critics to suggest it, but maybe GM was just saying, for now one large hybrid is enough.

In order to amortize the cost of the hybrids that the japanese government didn't pay for, they needed to put it in higher priced models, that's why they don't have a prius.

The latest Vue's failure in the market is threefold, one, all GM's MSRP's are too high, two the styling has been rejected, three is complete lack of any marketing for the saturn brand, and i'll throw in four....mass hysteria about the Vue's weight. If the Vue had come out when gas was 2.25, no one would have bitched about the curb weight. I'd challenge anyone with 28 thousand bucks to go shop a CRv and a Vue XR and i bet if they test drove them both 90% of the people would recognize the Vue is the superior machine in terms of driving dynamics.

Edited October 29, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

The important question is, how many other people are going to be interested in a hybrid Vue with AWD? I agree with others about having doubts about how well the 2wd 2mode 6cyl will sell. Most of the people buying hybrids want nothing but the best fuel economy. 6cyl already hurts that. AWD would hurt it more. You've said your wife would buy it, that's not nothing, but the question is how many others would? I don't know the answer to that, but I think it may be presumptuous to say that because it's what your wife wants, that it would be a wise move by GM. I do think it is something they should be looking into, because it could be applicable to the lambdas as well, and if it'll sell, they should look into it. Who knows - maybe it's in the works. Of course, knowing how well GM keeps it's development programs secret, I think we would have heard something if it was, so it's probably not.

AWD does hurt mpg. if i bought a vue hybrid 4 or 6 i think i would lean FWD. a lambda hybrid should indeed come with AWD since its bigger and people expect AWD on bigger SUV's. cute utes don't have as much of a take rate for AWD.

AWD or FWD as a decision really is tied to gas prices. Literally 2 months ago when we bought the taurus x, gas was close to 4 bucks i think. I recall thinking giving up the AWD for a few more MPG would be nice. Now, with winter coming on and gas at 2.30 a gallon, i have no issues paying for more gallons to have better winter traction.

Edited October 29, 2008 by regfootball

[enzl]

The important question is, how many other people are going to be interested in a hybrid Vue with AWD? I agree with others about having doubts about how well the 2wd 2mode 6cyl will sell. Most of the people buying hybrids want nothing but the best fuel economy. 6cyl already hurts that. AWD would hurt it more. You've said your wife would buy it, that's not nothing, but the question is how many others would? I don't know the answer to that, but I think it may be presumptuous to say that because it's what your wife wants, that it would be a wise move by GM. I do think it is something they should be looking into, because it could be applicable to the lambdas as well, and if it'll sell, they should look into it. Who knows - maybe it's in the works. Of course, knowing how well GM keeps it's development programs secret, I think we would have heard something if it was, so it's probably not.

I'm merely stating that a customer that would consider it, now won't. GM had an opportunity with a Subie fan and lost it. Got a feeling there are lots of them out there.

What is the point of a CUV if no AWD is available?

[saturnd00d]

What is the point of a CUV if no AWD is available?

I didn't even think twice about AWD. I, for one, am confident enough behind the wheel that I can pass up that option. I'm sorry, but nowadays, people place too much faith in AWD. If Saturn added an AWD option to its 4 cyl Vue, the price would be way too close to the XE AWD with the 3.5 V6. The MPG penalty for having an AWD 4 would take it closer to the numbers of the XE AWD anyways, so I don't even see it as a decent move when I look at the dismal benefit it would give me (again if Saturn added AWD to its 4 cyl).

[PurdueGuy]

What is the point of a CUV if no AWD is available?

It's just a tall car. Some people know how to drive in snow and rain and don't need an AWD system to kill their fuel economy 100% of the time, just to be a little helpful 1% of the time.

Like I said, there may be enough people that would want it that it's merited. Or it could be a program that would cost GM millions and result in a couple thousand sales, and be a big mistake. Neither of us knows that, but it's something that I would hope GM has or will look into.

[enzl]

I didn't even think twice about AWD. I, for one, am confident enough behind the wheel that I can pass up that option. I'm sorry, but nowadays, people place too much faith in AWD. If Saturn added an AWD option to its 4 cyl Vue, the price would be way too close to the XE AWD with the 3.5 V6. The MPG penalty for having an AWD 4 would take it closer to the numbers of the XE AWD anyways, so I don't even see it as a decent move when I look at the dismal benefit it would give me (again if Saturn added AWD to its 4 cyl).

First--It's simply common sense that an 'SUV' looking machine offer AWD---I won't debate the merits of AWD, just that it has become an 'expected' part of the CUV experience---the Escape, Highlander, RX400h all have AWD available...why didn't GM plan to have an AWD, too?

Second--the reason the VUE has no AWD 4cyl is because its a Pig---500lbs more than it should be---your circular reasoning brings us right back to the fact that GM was either:a)too cheap,B) too stupid or C)too arrogant--to realize that the WORLD product (Captiva, Antara, Daewoo Whatever, et al) needed to be BETTER than the competition--that's why an AWD VUE isn't available--there's a RAV4, CRV, Rogue and a slew of others that simply HAVE a 4cyl, AWD option

Your question should be why isn't the VUE designed correctly to have an efficient 4 cyl version--not making more lame excuses as to why GM didn't manage to do it--they've got plenty of management in Detroit doing just that now.

[PurdueGuy]

Don't get me wrong, I think the current Vue is a pig too.

[Z-06]

First--It's simply common sense that an 'SUV' looking machine offer AWD---I won't debate the merits of AWD, just that it has become an 'expected' part of the CUV experience---the Escape, Highlander, RX400h all have AWD available...why didn't GM plan to have an AWD, too?

Second--the reason the VUE has no AWD 4cyl is because its a Pig---500lbs more than it should be---your circular reasoning brings us right back to the fact that GM was either:a)too cheap,B) too stupid or C)too arrogant--to realize that the WORLD product (Captiva, Antara, Daewoo Whatever, et al) needed to be BETTER than the competition--that's why an AWD VUE isn't available--there's a RAV4, CRV, Rogue and a slew of others that simply HAVE a 4cyl, AWD option

Your question should be why isn't the VUE designed correctly to have an efficient 4 cyl version--not making more lame excuses as to why GM didn't manage to do it--they've got plenty of management in Detroit doing just that now.

I gotta agree here. If the competition has the goodies in their vehicles, GM should have them too if GM wants to be competitive and wants their sales to go up. Engineering is overcoming difficulties and solving problems, not creating excuses.

[PurdueGuy]

I gotta agree here. If the competition has the goodies in their vehicles, GM should have them too if GM wants to be competitive and wants their sales to go up. Engineering is overcoming difficulties and solving problems, not creating excuses.

I agree... IF they can get the sales to pay for the development. This is no time for GM to go "I can do that too!" and lose money. I am not saying GM should not have these products (AWD 4cyl, AWD hybrid), I am saying that GM should do their homework and FIND OUT if it's financially wise to have these products. Spending several million developing one of these vehicles and finding out it'll only bring in a few thousand sales is exactly the kind of mistake GM can't afford right now. It's easy for us as enthusiasts to sit back and say "GM should offer every model with every drivetrain variation with every option in every color with every...", but at the end of the day, some of those combinations aren't financially viable, and GM had better know that before it spends the money, not after.

[enzl]

Don't get me wrong, I think the current Vue is a pig too.

I didn't intend my mini-rant at you.

I've been trying to steer my wife to a domestic product---we're planning on leasing--and it's been a frustrating experience--the fact that Saturn doesn't make one of its 2 VUE hybrids as AWD just confounds me.

We have 1 domestic choice in Ford's Escape/mariner--and those are impossible to find and sell at a premium partially because of the choice (FWD/AWD) available.

[regfootball]

I'm merely stating that a customer that would consider it, now won't. GM had an opportunity with a Subie fan and lost it. Got a feeling there are lots of them out there.

What is the point of a CUV if no AWD is available?

i tend to agree with that, but let me say this. i've driven the 09 forester, it's a piece of sh1t. The Vue is a far better drive. all the hype about the forester is that, hype. Its tinny and cheap and doesn't even have a v6 option. its tippy on the turns. its not only me either, go read user reviews on edmunds etc. that forester isn't even gonna get you real great mpg either.

open your mind and go try a vue and forester yourself and get back to me. if that doesn't work then go drive an edge and escape. the 09 escape i have driven twice, the 4 cylinder and six are both smooth and powerful and they ride so much better than the forester its not even funny.

if you want a vehicle that will last, get the ford.

Edited October 29, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

First--It's simply common sense that an 'SUV' looking machine offer AWD---I won't debate the merits of AWD, just that it has become an 'expected' part of the CUV experience---the Escape, Highlander, RX400h all have AWD available...why didn't GM plan to have an AWD, too?

Second--the reason the VUE has no AWD 4cyl is because its a Pig---500lbs more than it should be---your circular reasoning brings us right back to the fact that GM was either:a)too cheap,B) too stupid or C)too arrogant--to realize that the WORLD product (Captiva, Antara, Daewoo Whatever, et al) needed to be BETTER than the competition--that's why an AWD VUE isn't available--there's a RAV4, CRV, Rogue and a slew of others that simply HAVE a 4cyl, AWD option

Your question should be why isn't the VUE designed correctly to have an efficient 4 cyl version--not making more lame excuses as to why GM didn't manage to do it--they've got plenty of management in Detroit doing just that now.

also, don't believe the hype on this. the 4 cylinder Vue has some nuts under the hood. when i test drove it, i had to go look at the sticker again because i was in disbelief at how much gusto it had. I don't hear the same things about the CRAWLING RECREATIONAL VEHICLE

[regfootball]

Don't get me wrong, I think the current Vue is a pig too.

DRIVE ONE AND THEN TELL ME IF YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT

the 4 cyl vue is 3800 pounds.

[regfootball]

I didn't intend my mini-rant at you.

I've been trying to steer my wife to a domestic product---we're planning on leasing--and it's been a frustrating experience--the fact that Saturn doesn't make one of its 2 VUE hybrids as AWD just confounds me.

We have 1 domestic choice in Ford's Escape/mariner--and those are impossible to find and sell at a premium partially because of the choice (FWD/AWD) available.

forget the hybrid. get an escape XLT, save the 10-12 grand, enjoy the ROCK SOLID RIDE AND THE SYNC SYSTEM

better yet, go show her a Mariner Voga edition and she will be sold on the spot. then tell me if you can even stomach that subaru.

Edited October 29, 2008 by regfootball

[enzl]

i tend to agree with that, but let me say this. i've driven the 09 forester, it's a piece of sh1t. The Vue is a far better drive. all the hype about the forester is that, hype. Its tinny and cheap and doesn't even have a v6 option. its tippy on the turns. its not only me either, go read user reviews on edmunds etc. that forester isn't even gonna get you real great mpg either.

open your mind and go try a vue and forester yourself and get back to me. if that doesn't work then go drive an edge and escape. the 09 escape i have driven twice, the 4 cylinder and six are both smooth and powerful and they ride so much better than the forester its not even funny.

if you want a vehicle that will last, get the ford.

I'm all in with the Escape---its difficult finding a Hybrid 09, never-mind negotiating a deal on one--I'm partial to a 4cyl AWD w/o the Hybrid, but she seems hell bent on it and its a lease, so I'm not worried about the long-term issues.

My wife is the Subie fan--I've heard the new Forrester isn't as good a drive as the old one--I'm going take her to drive everything, no doubt. It's her car, so I'm buying 36 months of silence as much as I'm buying her a car, so I'm going to let her choose--with some gentle direction from me, of course.

[regfootball]

36 months of silence....LOL

seriously though, Mariner Voga.

Myself, I just don't see ponying up extra for the hybrid, but I realize its a hot feature.

I saw a Vue Hybrid over lunch.

I would say the CRV is a more well finished machine than the Forester. I have not driven the CRV however. If i really were forced to buy a Honda cute ute, it would be the Element. I actually like that vehicle, even though it suffers from cheap plastics and bad mpg. To me the function of that vehicle over the CRV is well worth it.

The RAV4 rental i had one time was one of the worst cars I have driven. The Kia Sportage I had one time was not all that bad, and is significantly cheaper, but its 'just a Kia'.

The 09 escape engines are way smoother and the ride and handling are very good. An the whole, the Escape feels like a good midsize car, just taller and slower steering.

I should mention that my forester test drive was a manual. Aside from the cheapness and tippyness, the shifter felt awful. Very rubbery and transmits all sort of vibration and such to the hand. The boxer motor is a bit of a growler.

The Escape manual's shifter was good, had a nice feel to the hand but was very notchy. I expected it to break in. It had a great hydraulic clutch. Power was decent to very good, i think with another 20-30hp that Escape manual would be a superstar. The new 2.5 engine is quite smooth. Its very quiet. I dropped any notion of getting a Focus or Cobalt after I drove the Escape manual. The escape manual, you CANNOT GET SYNC!!!!!!!

The Vue 4 cylinder is a little loud but not coarse. The one I drove had tapshift for the 4 speed. You had to thumb down to 3 on inclines because its geared to keep the 4 cylinder in the powerband, this is a legitimate concern for going 70+ mph but in in town driving its what makes it sprite. I would like to see a Vue BAS2 with 6 speed automatic.

From a cargo standpoint, the Outlander has the best packaging to me. I like the interior on that one also, with leather.

Edited October 29, 2008 by regfootball

[PurdueGuy]

DRIVE ONE AND THEN TELL ME IF YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT

the 4 cyl vue is 3800 pounds.

I don't have to drive one to say that 3800 lbs for a tall car is too heavy. The worse thing is how close to that the Aura is, it's a pig too. The Vue may be a great vehicle and a better option than most/all other CUVs out there, but I still find it's weight too high. GM needs to find ways to keep their vehicles just as solid while going on a diet. That's easy mpgs.

Edited October 29, 2008 by PurdueGuy

[enzl]

36 months of silence....LOL

seriously though, Mariner Voga.

Myself, I just don't see ponying up extra for the hybrid, but I realize its a hot feature.

I saw a Vue Hybrid over lunch.

I would say the CRV is a more well finished machine than the Forester. I have not driven the CRV however. If i really were forced to buy a Honda cute ute, it would be the Element. I actually like that vehicle, even though it suffers from cheap plastics and bad mpg. To me the function of that vehicle over the CRV is well worth it.

The RAV4 rental i had one time was one of the worst cars I have driven. The Kia Sportage I had one time was not all that bad, and is significantly cheaper, but its 'just a Kia'.

The 09 escape engines are way smoother and the ride and handling are very good. An the whole, the Escape feels like a good midsize car, just taller and slower steering.

I should mention that my forester test drive was a manual. Aside from the cheapness and tippyness, the shifter felt awful. Very rubbery and transmits all sort of vibration and such to the hand. The boxer motor is a bit of a growler.

The Escape manual's shifter was good, had a nice feel to the hand but was very notchy. I expected it to break in. It had a great hydraulic clutch. Power was decent to very good, i think with another 20-30hp that Escape manual would be a superstar. The new 2.5 engine is quite smooth. Its very quiet. I dropped any notion of getting a Focus or Cobalt after I drove the Escape manual. The escape manual, you CANNOT GET SYNC!!!!!!!

The Vue 4 cylinder is a little loud but not coarse. The one I drove had tapshift for the 4 speed. You had to thumb down to 3 on inclines because its geared to keep the 4 cylinder in the powerband, this is a legitimate concern for going 70+ mph but in in town driving its what makes it sprite. I would like to see a Vue BAS2 with 6 speed automatic.

From a cargo standpoint, the Outlander has the best packaging to me. I like the interior on that one also, with leather.

Has to be Auto, unfortunately...I'm going to pick up a beater at some point so she can learn--but with 2 kids in the car--I think it can wait a bit.

I'm pushing the 4cylAWD Escape--I haven't sat online and built one yet....we have multiple F/L/M franchises, so I'm sure I can get the best deal on one of these---The Forrester is her idea (although it could morph into a Impreza OB Sport--just got off the phone her--she saw one today).

To be honest, I've been pushing for a used 06 530Xi Wagon (we pick them up regularly at auction for $24-28k and I've can get BMW to certify it for a grand or so)--my wife thinks only jerks buy BMW's, so the small CUV appears to be where she wants to be--I guess I can't complain, she could insist on a new BMW, right?

We'll see...

[regfootball]

I don't have to drive one to say that 3800 lbs for a tall car is too heavy. The worse thing is how close to that the Aura is, it's a pig too. The Vue may be a great vehicle and a better option than most/all other CUVs out there, but I still find it's weight too high. GM needs to find ways to keep their vehicles just as solid while going on a diet. That's easy mpgs.

the weight helps it drive better. and is not as big an mpg penalty as you think.

sort of like the same way a Jetta weighs more than its competition. but if you won't open up the mind enough to drive one to see how it drives.......

Edited October 29, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Has to be Auto, unfortunately...I'm going to pick up a beater at some point so she can learn--but with 2 kids in the car--I think it can wait a bit.

I'm pushing the 4cylAWD Escape--I haven't sat online and built one yet....we have multiple F/L/M franchises, so I'm sure I can get the best deal on one of these---The Forrester is her idea (although it could morph into a Impreza OB Sport--just got off the phone her--she saw one today).

To be honest, I've been pushing for a used 06 530Xi Wagon (we pick them up regularly at auction for $24-28k and I've can get BMW to certify it for a grand or so)--my wife thinks only jerks buy BMW's, so the small CUV appears to be where she wants to be--I guess I can't complain, she could insist on a new BMW, right?

We'll see...

the used 5 would be nice. i did drive an outback sport also. in my mind its a better more of a piece vehicle than the forester, but the forester has much better utility. the boxer engines are growly to me.

as good as the escape is now finally for 09, the purchase price of the 6 cylinder is so low, if you want the automatic you should really just test drive both and see what you prefer.

it sucks that gas prices fluctuate so much now. right now with 2 dollar gas, the real world dollar advantage of 2-3 additional mpg probably doesn't justify itself, four vs. six. and the flip side to that is, is a small 6 cylinder CUV much more efficient than say, a Suburban?

Show her the Flex and Taurus X if she still likes the Forester.

Truthfully though, if she is really satisfied with the Subarus then its easy to understand why she'd want to be a repeat customer. Their products just lack heft and security and solidity to me.

Ultimately i guess my point in this thread is I was greatly surprised how vastly improved the Vue is and how much I enjoyed it as a vehicle. You can seriously enjoy it as a canyon carver and day to day driver, and it does not feel cheap or thin. It feels substantial, and serious and has a nice interior. The impression it left me was that it is an upscale premium entry in this segment, and well worth the extra weight it may be carrying around. I found the engines to be quite sprite (the 6 really has some serious kick to it) and at least as far as tactile quality in interiors and driver interface I do not feel it has an equal peer in this segment. The difference between the old Vue and this one is shocking. and so i feel to use the Vue as the purveyor of hybrids for GM has complete merit as well.

Its one of those vehicles that if people actually got into and took for a spin, they would form an opinion for themselves that is quite different than some of the generalizations being made on the internet.

My reservations on the Vue in its first year are some apparent quality issues, and styling. GM had better clean those up.

Edited October 29, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

I don't have to drive one to say that 3800 lbs for a tall car is too heavy. The worse thing is how close to that the Aura is, it's a pig too. The Vue may be a great vehicle and a better option than most/all other CUVs out there, but I still find it's weight too high. GM needs to find ways to keep their vehicles just as solid while going on a diet. That's easy mpgs.

by the way, have you driven an Aura? the 4 cylinder has nuts and gets better mpg than many of its lighter competition.

[PurdueGuy]

the weight helps it drive better. and is not as big an mpg penalty as you think.

sort of like the same way a Jetta weighs more than its competition. but if you won't open up the mind enough to drive one to see how it drives.......

Oh, I'm open to driving one, but the nearest dealer is more than 2 hours drive away, and there's no chance I would buy one even if I was totally blown away (probably couldn't afford the payment, and I'm not interested in the financial waste that comes with buying brand new vehicles). I'm not saying it's a bad product, I'm just saying it seems silly that it weighs as much as it does for its size. GM should find ways to build their vehicles just as solid but lose some weight.

by the way, have you driven an Aura? the 4 cylinder has nuts and gets better mpg than many of its lighter competition.

I haven't driven the 4cyl Aura - I test drove the 2 6cyls they offered originally. Both were nice, but consider that the Aura weighs about 600lbs more than the L-Series it replaced, and isn't notably bigger. It's certainly a more refined car, but that's a heck of a lotta weight. If the 4cyl is already getting better mpgs than the competition, just think if it lost 300lbs.

[pow]

Apparently the VUE is obese because of "structural inefficiencies" that result from having so many different powertrains across different markets. Theta wasn't engineered to handle this powertrain proliferation, and so they piled on weight to meet each of these new structural and packaging requirements - within a model, you had four-cylinders with either front-facing or rear-facing exhaust, diesels, new V6s, etc.

The original VUE went a full circle - first it was a North American only product, the Equinox/Torrent built on that, then Korea and Europe worked on it (Captiva and Antara), and now it's back in the US as the second-generation VUE. Future GM architectures, like TE, will be more globalized from the very beginning, powertrains will be consolidated, and there will be greater mass efficiency.

[regfootball]

vue and all the x-vers should be on Epsilon2 if you ask me. or epsilon. why theta even exists?

purdue, the L series may have been light but look at midsize curb weights now. and the Aura is not too much more heavy than its competition. its four and sixes are top performers and right up there in mpg too. to compare a 2008 sedan with all its crash and safety stuff to the weak L series is not a valid comparo.

the vue interior has a comfort level that is greater than the other cute utes, and is a bit larger and more commodious, for example if you compare the rogue vs. the vue you can partly explain why the vue weighs more. Or drive a sportage and Vue back to back and you understand the extra solidity.

to me, the flaw the Vue has with regards to mass is that an Edge is not much more portly and is larger even still and is even in the next class of refinement.

empowah's ultimate point i think is that Vue should have been on a clean sheet design to this i agree. Seriously, GM can build about 15-20 cars on the epsilon chassis, why don't they?

[saturnd00d]

I don't have to drive one to say that 3800 lbs for a tall car is too heavy. The worse thing is how close to that the Aura is, it's a pig too. The Vue may be a great vehicle and a better option than most/all other CUVs out there, but I still find it's weight too high. GM needs to find ways to keep their vehicles just as solid while going on a diet. That's easy mpgs.

I understand the concerns that everyone has about the weight of the Vue, heck, I had them too, but you have to realize that the Vue was designed with global crash ratings in mind. Sure, it didn't help that it was designed by Daewoo, and yes it could have still come out 100-150 lbs lighter IMO, but the fact that it was bulked up for all markets it was sold in, is the reason that it is so heavy for the most part.

For those of you who just want to look at the facts on paper, I feel sorry for you. You're missing out on a great vehicle. Personally, I went out and test drove the Rogue, CR-V, Rav4 and Santa Fe, all before I test drove the Vue, and I can honestly say that it is the best riding vehicle of them all. It does have less cargo space, and it is a bit on the heavy side so performance isn't where it should be, but it's a small sacrifice to make for such a solid vehicle in this segment. If you all want to argue MPG and weight all day, then some of the other benefits to owning a vehicle in this class must not be the reason you're looking at this segment in the first place. For me, it has the best balance of utility, comfort, ride quality and fit-n-finish of any vehicle it competes with, and I am still getting 28 MPG with a 75%-25% Hwy and city mix of driving.

To have a closed mind towards a vehicle because of no AWD option, heavier weight, and 1 MPG rating less city and HWY compared to it's closest rival is quite awkward. Suit yourselves. My Vue is holding up quite well to all that I've thrown at it so far.

[pow]

vue and all the x-vers should be on Epsilon2 if you ask me. or epsilon. why theta even exists?

purdue, the L series may have been light but look at midsize curb weights now. and the Aura is not too much more heavy than its competition. its four and sixes are top performers and right up there in mpg too. to compare a 2008 sedan with all its crash and safety stuff to the weak L series is not a valid comparo.

the vue interior has a comfort level that is greater than the other cute utes, and is a bit larger and more commodious, for example if you compare the rogue vs. the vue you can partly explain why the vue weighs more. Or drive a sportage and Vue back to back and you understand the extra solidity.

to me, the flaw the Vue has with regards to mass is that an Edge is not much more portly and is larger even still and is even in the next class of refinement.

empowah's ultimate point i think is that Vue should have been on a clean sheet design to this i agree. Seriously, GM can build about 15-20 cars on the epsilon chassis, why don't they?

There's the Highlander, too. I personally don't like the thing - ugly inside and out, Toyota driving dynamics, etc - but it's the right size, it's packaged well (seats seven), and it appeals to a wide audience.

The '09 Highlander gets a 2.7 liter I4 (187 hp, 186 lb-ft) and a six-speed automatic, giving it an EPA rating of 20/27 mpg. That's better than 19/26 mpg the 5-passenger VUE 2.4 gets. Both vehicles weigh about the same, and the Highlander has a higher "structure/safety cage" rating in the IIHS side crash test.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/04/toyota-...ander/#comments

Edited November 6, 2008 by empowah

[regfootball]

There's the Highlander, too. I personally don't like the thing - ugly inside and out, Toyota driving dynamics, etc - but it's the right size, it's packaged well (seats seven), and it appeals to a wide audience.

The '09 Highlander gets a 2.7 liter I4 (187 hp, 186 lb-ft) and a six-speed automatic, giving it an EPA rating of 20/27 mpg. That's better than 19/26 mpg the 5-passenger VUE 2.4 gets. Both vehicles weigh about the same, and the Highlander has a higher "structure/safety cage" rating in the IIHS side crash test.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/04/toyota-...ander/#comments

highlander is a mommy mobile though. and pricier than the vue.

Edited November 6, 2008 by regfootball

[pow]

VUE 2-Mode has been delayed. At this rate, we'll probably see the Fusion Hybrid in showrooms sooner... even though the VUE debuted a year earlier.

[CARBIZ]

There's the Highlander, too. I personally don't like the thing - ugly inside and out, Toyota driving dynamics, etc - but it's the right size, it's packaged well (seats seven), and it appeals to a wide audience.

The '09 Highlander gets a 2.7 liter I4 (187 hp, 186 lb-ft) and a six-speed automatic, giving it an EPA rating of 20/27 mpg. That's better than 19/26 mpg the 5-passenger VUE 2.4 gets. Both vehicles weigh about the same, and the Highlander has a higher "structure/safety cage" rating in the IIHS side crash test.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/04/toyota-...ander/#comments

Nobody over the age of 5 will fit in the 3rd row of the Highlander. We tried. With the 3rd row in place, you can't even get an average sized cooler behind the 3rd row. And Toyota cheaped out and made the 3rd row one solid piece, which means if you use the seat for one kid, you still have no storage.

Hybrid or not, the Highlander is a joke. It almost makes the TB look good. Almost.

[regfootball]

new Pilot sucks too. But the highlander indeed is majur suckage.