Driving Away Excitement...G8 dead in 5 years

[Lamar]

Interesting... I wonder if GM has considered using the Lambda platform for large FWD/AWD cars? It's their largest FWD platform..

... and by far the heaviest.

It'd be Zeta again, but pulling instead of pushing.

[daves87rs]

... and by far the heaviest.

It'd be Zeta again, but pulling instead of pushing.

Yep.

[Robert Hall]

... and by far the heaviest.

It'd be Zeta again, but pulling instead of pushing.

Yeah, but at least Lambdas are available w/ a 6spd transmission, which they still haven't figured out how to put in the G and W bodies.

[VenSeattle]

Interesting... I wonder if GM has considered using the Lambda platform for large FWD/AWD cars? It's their largest FWD platform..

IIRC, the original idea for the Chi platform was to use Lambda as the G-Platform successor. I could see FOG's idea of modifying Epsilon II to resurrect Chi.

But, I believe the LWB Epsilon II (or Epsilon +) has already been officially selected as the platform for the next Impala.

[SAmadei]

There is no replacement for the Lucy/DTS...big cars are dead....

Big SUVs, dead... yeah, I can believe that... SUVs are back _only_ for people who NEED them,

With that idea, GM had better pack it in. Even if gas is $15 a gallon, there will be people buying big cars. There are alot of people leaving the SUVs behind, but still need a larger car.

DTS - Cost of average fuel per year @$15/gal... $12500.

Cobalt XFE - same... $7500

I can't live my life in a tiny Cobalt. I'm going to have to eat the extra $5K a year (@$15/gal) to allow myself to fit the people and things in my car. Sure, I'd have to save my money by being more selective with my trips.

I doubt the average American can fit its obese, McD's-fed body into a Cobalt. The Cobalt XFE will be compelling for everyone when it gets 75 mpg _more_ than every large vehicle.

For GM to just give up on big cars, is to surrender the market to the Asian companies... they'll just make more Avalons. Just like GM gave up the police/Taxi market. Just like GM gave up the muscle car market (for 8 years, at least). Just like GM gave up the subcompact market years ago.

GM then should give up all the markets and just continue to build parts for the cars they sold in the last few years, since people are going to be holding on to them for a _long_ time.

[smk4565]

There is a very small full size car segment, and the Asians hardly bother with it. An Avalon or Maxima are smaller than the current LaCrosse. The only thing Lucerne/DTS size is an S-class. The new size for a large car is about 196-199 inches long, the G8, STS, 300C, Taurus, LS460, Avalon, 7-series fit into that range.

Pontiac hasn't had direction in years, the brand is either going to become the rental car outlet of GM or die off.

[Sixty8panther]

Actually, the Mayan calendar ends December 21, 2012...

My calendar, currently hanging on my wall ENDS on Dec. 31st. of 2008. :AH-HA_wink:

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Edited October 26, 2008 by Sixty8panther

[A Horse With No Name]

There is no replacement for the Lucy/DTS...big cars are dead....

+1

chris

[Oracle of Delphi]

But, I believe the LWB Epsilon II (or Epsilon +) has already been officially selected as the platform for the next Impala.

You are correct Sir.

[Lamar]

You are correct Sir.

It appears that several here are ok with that, as long as W is going away.

[gm4life]

I wouldn't mind a Chi coming back I see a purpose for it. And if they lose the G8 they better get a LWB Epsilion Bonneville-ish vehicle (think Maxima) with unique styling. I wouldn't be suprised if you see a Chi or something like it with a Lucerne, DTS and possible Bonneville/Impala.

Edited October 27, 2008 by gm4life

[Satty]

I have a feeling that after the G8 says bye-bye, Pontiac (in whatever form it lives) wont get anything larger than the G6. Buick and Cadillac can handle larger cars to compete with Lexus, Mercedes and BMW.

[gm4life]

You might be right. But honestly I hope for a full line-up with a focus on performance value and style.

[Robert Hall]

You might be right. But honestly I hope for a full line-up with a focus on performance value and style.

That's what I would have liked to have seen also, but given the current reality, I think the more realistic scenario are Chevy FWD rebadges for Avis, no Solstice and G8 replacements, and phase out before 2015...

[gm4life]

Moltar I hope not... I do hold out hope tho.

[MyerShift]

I must say that although I am not a particularly big Pontiac fan, I feel that Pontiac should be GM's outlet for relatively affordable, fun ALL rear-drive cars.

Although this won't happen, it's my two cents.

[gm4life]

I agree but I will take what we can get from Pontiac right now.

[Chicagoland]

You might be right. But honestly I hope for a full line-up with a focus on performance value and style.

Sorry but GM simply cannot afford to have a 1970's era of 4 full line brands anymore.

[Camino LS6]

This thread is entirely, and completely composed of old BS.

What will be, will be.

But if Pontiac is starved to death and then killed, it will just be yet another glaring example of bad decision making at GM and the beginning of the end for the entire company.

[Lamar]

But if Pontiac is starved to death and then killed, it will just be yet another glaring example of bad decision making at GM and the beginning of the end for the entire company.

Or a loss of yet another fanbase to the import brands... lost marketshare... then the same thing happening in 10 years with another brand.

If it's Saturn, that will be all right.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well, not many remember the "old: Pontiac....at least the ones that matter anyways...

{thinking positive}

And that can be exploited by GM as a HUGE opportunity to re-birth the division into something that is relevant and delivers on its promise.

{/thinking positive}

Just like Mercury is an opportunity that Ford appears to be taking...

Edited October 27, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

IIRC, the original idea for the Chi platform was to use Lambda as the G-Platform successor. I could see FOG's idea of modifying Epsilon II to resurrect Chi.

But, I believe the LWB Epsilon II (or Epsilon +) has already been officially selected as the platform for the next Impala.

The info I read stated that LWB Eps II would underpin the next Malibu (Or somehow the next Malibu would grow) and as a result make the cars redundant again (just like they are now) and that started the thinking about Chi.

Another school of thought is that Chevy will get an Alpha sedan as well. If I were a betting man, I'd go with Impala for that IF it happens.

Then again, this is all just chatter, so who knows.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I have a feeling that after the G8 says bye-bye, Pontiac (in whatever form it lives) wont get anything larger than the G6. Buick and Cadillac can handle larger cars to compete with Lexus, Mercedes and BMW.

That would make the most sense. After all, Pontiac IS the entry point for the B/P/GMC channel. I still think it could support an Alpha model for sure.

And with the way the market is going, again, Pontiac COULD be a tremendous source of growth for GM if this happens.

For GM to just give up on big cars, is to surrender the market to the Asian companies... they'll just make more Avalons. Just like GM gave up the police/Taxi market. Just like GM gave up the muscle car market (for 8 years, at least). Just like GM gave up the subcompact market years ago.

Yep, like I've said before, learned helplessness, except on a corporate level.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Sorry but GM simply cannot afford to have a 1970's era of 4 full line brands anymore.

And GM stated 3 years ago (2005) that it would only have 2 full line brands.

Problem solved (3 years ago)

Now if GM would just stick to the plan and stop caving to dealers and FOCUS, they could actually make that business model a reality.

[VenSeattle]

The info I read stated that LWB Eps II would underpin the next Malibu (Or somehow the next Malibu would grow) and as a result make the cars redundant again (just like they are now) and that started the thinking about Chi.

Another school of thought is that Chevy will get an Alpha sedan as well. If I were a betting man, I'd go with Impala for that IF it happens.

Then again, this is all just chatter, so who knows.

I think the way it all fell into place was like this:

Fairfax, KS

*Chevrolet Malibu continue until 2011

*Chevrolet large 4-door notchback beginning in 2010 (Impala on LWB Epsilon II/Epsilon +) This Impala is for the US market only.

Detroit Hamtramck, Mich.

*Global Epsilon Chevrolet beginning in 2012 (NG Malibu on SWB Epsilon II) This Malibu would be sold globally.

-------------------------------

However, W-Platform production of the Impala has been extended from 2012 to '13. It's possible the W-Platform Impala will turn into "Classic" or "Caprice" and carry on as a budget/fleet large car once the Epsilon II Impala arrives in/around 2010.

[hyperv6]

The only way you can save Pontiac with rebadged Chevys, a Holden or two and a Toyota is to give each model and let the GM Performance Division tune each and every model.

If you preach performance but you give a rebadged Aveo what does that say?

Pontiac is saying the right things but are not backing up their claim as a performance division other than with a couple GXP cars [not counting the G6] and the G8.

It is time to back up their claims!

If you don't have a G5 that can run with a Cobalt SS and a G6 that can't out run my 72 year old moms 08 3.6 Malibu something is wrong. If they don't fix this even on the present models they may as well call Pontiac the We Build Boring Division. As it stands now my HHR SS is more Exciting than 2/3 the Pontiac line up.

Pontiac has become what the Chevy SS was emblem cars out side the Solstice and G8.

[Camino LS6]

let the GM Performance Division tune each and every model.

This policy should have been in place years ago.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The only way you can save Pontiac with rebadged Chevys, a Holden or two and a Toyota is to give each model and let the GM Performance Division tune each and every model.

I agree... That's why, in the plan I outlined, every Pontiac was tuned by GMPD and EVERY entry level Pontiac sold would be one trim.

If you preach performance but you give a rebadged Aveo what does that say?

"We are General Mistakes... err, I mean General Motors"

Pontiac is saying the right things but are not backing up their claim as a performance division other than with a couple GXP cars [not counting the G6] and the G8.

It is time to back up their claims!

+1

If you don't have a G5 that can run with a Cobalt SS and a G6 that can't out run my 72 year old moms 08 3.6 Malibu something is wrong. If they don't fix this even on the present models they may as well call Pontiac the We Build Boring Division. As it stands now my HHR SS is more Exciting than 2/3 the Pontiac line up.

Pontiac has become what the Chevy SS was emblem cars out side the Solstice and G8.

+1!!!

I agree 100% And that's why it annoys me so much, GM has the means and the talent to make Pontiac what they want Pontiac to be (FWD or not, volume division or not!) Pontiac is the last bastion of old skool GM product think, and since it's supposedly the FRONT LINE to automotive enthusiasts, that makes absolutely no sense to the point that it pisses me off.

[A Horse With No Name]

You might be right. But honestly I hope for a full line-up with a focus on performance value and style.

I would really agree. I remember the Pontiacs of the 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's as new cars.

A full Pontiac lineup would be great.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

This policy should have been in place years ago.

This makes so much sense it's not even funny.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

This policy should have been in place years ago.

This makes so much sense it's not even funny.

Chris

[Argen]

One of the problems is that Pontiac has been so many different things over the years, that if you try to make it more focused by eliminating product no inline with the brand strategy you'll end up pissing someone off.

I have a friend with a Torrent, and when I told him Pontiac wasn't going to do SUV's anymore he was seriously upset. There are people out there who genuinely love their Transsports, Montanas, and Azteks.

[gm4life]

They can't do simple rebadges they have to drive different. Even the Equinox/Torrent do at least they ride a little sportier. But having GMPD couldn't hurt even the base model extra hp due to intake tuning and muffler. The spring rates should be firmed up too.

[Oracle of Delphi]

One of the problems is that Pontiac has been so many different things over the years, that if you try to make it more focused by eliminating product no inline with the brand strategy you'll end up pissing someone off.

I have a friend with a Torrent, and when I told him Pontiac wasn't going to do SUV's anymore he was seriously upset. There are people out there who genuinely love their Transsports, Montanas, and Azteks.

Yeah, Pontiac and the McCain campaign have a lot in common. Yeah I want to be RWD, no, wait I want to be FWD, no wait, I want to sell trucks, no wait Pontiac is car. No Pontiac is GM's performance brand, no wait Pontiac is getting a G3. I guess the fundamentals of Pontiac are sound!

[gm4life]

One of the problems is that Pontiac has been so many different things over the years, that if you try to make it more focused by eliminating product no inline with the brand strategy you'll end up pissing someone off.

I have a friend with a Torrent, and when I told him Pontiac wasn't going to do SUV's anymore he was seriously upset. There are people out there who genuinely love their Transsports, Montanas, and Azteks.

I think one SUV/cross-over (Torrent) and wagon/hatch (Vibe) there is a place for that.

[hyperv6]

Yeah, Pontiac and the McCain campaign have a lot in common. Yeah I want to be RWD, no, wait I want to be FWD, no wait, I want to sell trucks, no wait Pontiac is car. No Pontiac is GM's performance brand, no wait Pontiac is getting a G3. I guess the fundamentals of Pontiac are sound!

It could be worse.

The redistrabution of Chevy products as Pontiac snd then charging more weakens both brands and is not working. Better to repair Pontiac vs pentalizing Chevy because they are making money.

Pontiac is now a smaller brand now that it is combined with Buick but GM is not taking advantage of it. This is more than just power it is more about interior comfort and quality along with better tuning of the suspension. Pontiac just using the available GM engines has plenty of power but it needs the things we touch and feel in and on the car to be more Audi and BMW like vs Malibu like.

Now that Chevy has raised thier game on interiors Pontiac need to step up and away from Chevy.

Also when I say tuning I don't mean the old Pontiac of lets slap some stiffer springs and bigger bars on it. I mean let get it tuned to it rides and handels along the lines of a European car. Big G numbers are useless if you fillings are getting pounded out.

My HHR SS handels great but it also rides much better than most past GM performance vehicles. This is due to GMPD and their whole package approach.

I still see the need for at least two models of each but they would be good and best but there is no need bot base here anylonger.

[z28luvr01]

Yeah, GM's handling of Pontiac and the McCain campaign have a lot in common. Yeah I want to be RWD, no, wait I want to be FWD, no wait, I want to sell trucks, no wait Pontiac is car. No Pontiac is GM's performance brand, no wait Pontiac is getting a G3. I guess the fundamentals of Pontiac are sound!

fixed

[Chazman]

Yeah, Pontiac and the McCain campaign have a lot in common. Yeah I want to be RWD, no, wait I want to be FWD, no wait, I want to sell trucks, no wait Pontiac is car. No Pontiac is GM's performance brand, no wait Pontiac is getting a G3. I guess the fundamentals of Pontiac are sound!

Actually, promising an "American BMW" to the restless, indoctrinated masses and delivering a socialist, redistributive G3 sounds EXACTLY like the Obama campaign.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it......

Edited October 29, 2008 by Chazman

[Camino LS6]

Actually, promising an "American BMW" to the restless, indoctrinated masses and delivering a socialist, redistributive G3 sounds EXACTLY like the Obama campaign.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it......

:rotflmao:

[Lamar]

For real... I look up the Pontiac thread to read about Pontiac vehicles, not presidential candidates.

[Chazman]

For real... I look up the Pontiac thread to read about Pontiac vehicles, not presidential candidates.

Obama: It's not "fair" to want anything more than a G3. If you are "wealthy" enough to want more than that, then you should be "patriotic" enough to pay me more taxes so I can "spread your wealth" to more deserving people of my choosing. Now stop complaining and get back to work, so you can pay for my social(ist) experiment.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Chazman

[A Horse With No Name]

Whoever wins, I want a Pontiac in the garage. But I want it to be a Solstice.

Chris

[Oracle of Delphi]

:rotflmao:

Don't laugh to much, you may end up with a Pontiac Trabant, before the brand is retired.

[Robert Hall]

Whoever wins, I want a Pontiac in the garage. But I want it to be a Solstice.

Chris

Saw a dark gray one in traffic this morning with the top down..the rear 3/4 view is great..

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yeah, Pontiac and the McCain campaign have a lot in common. Yeah I want to be RWD, no, wait I want to be FWD, no wait, I want to sell trucks, no wait Pontiac is car. No Pontiac is GM's performance brand, no wait Pontiac is getting a G3. I guess the fundamentals of Pontiac are sound!

Sounds a lot like GM in general to me.

[Camino LS6]

Don't laugh to much, you may end up with a Pontiac Trabant, before the brand is retired.

There is no chance that I would end up with any such thing.

[hyperv6]

GM and Pontiac could learn from this statment.

"That which is good or great makes itself known, no matter how loud the clamor of denial. That which deserves to live—lives."-- The Penalty of Leadership

Cadillac Motor Company advertisement, 1915

[A Horse With No Name]

Great Quote!

Chris