GM to absorb Chrysler - as Chrysler absorbed AMC?

[CMG]

Evan a bankrupt company has an opportunity to recover. An absorbed and dissolved one? Eh... not so much.

Even though I can conceptualize the absorption of Chrysler, it doesn't mean I agree with it. I'd rather Cerberus turn Chrysler around or die trying. Well, at least be the one responsible for killing Chrysler. GM doesn't need the additional bad press.

GM has enough bad press all it's own, and with the economy turning BAD it is THREE American automakers in dire straights.

It seems too many here turn a blind eye to that.

This rumor IF realized will REDUCE domestic automobile production and the jobs that come with it, and further reduce the public's perception of a domestic automaker. Like it or not.

No domestic has been "absorbed and dissolved" yet. Have they?

For GM to even TRY to absorb Chrysler, as you say, when the consensus is there is no good reason- and then try to PRETEND that it is a wise move? Wow. No wonder GM stocks are dumping to 60 year lows, management is still involved in crazy risk taking despite being in dire financial straights.

Looks to me a like a sign that things are going to get even WORSE at GM, and the financial troubles at GM are already staggering.

You do the math. It's NOT good.

Edited October 19, 2008 by CMG

[VenSeattle]

GM has enough bad press all it's own, and with the economy turning BAD it is THREE American automakers in dire straights.

It seems too many here turn a blind eye to that.

This rumor IF realized will REDUCE domestic automobile production and the jobs that come with it, and further reduce the public's perception of a domestic automaker. Like it or not.

No domestic has been "absorbed and dissolved" yet. Have they?

Yes they have... several times. Too many times to count. Just pretend to know history. Okay?

By the way... the reduction will happen regardless of this acquisition. Chrysler is collapsing under its own weight and Cerberus knows it can't save it in this market climate. Why else would Chrysler be pawned off by Cerberus after just a year of ownership? That's the reality.

GM and Ford are suffering from a similar situation, but have global operations to fall back on. Even if NA operations go bankrupt, the international operations can step in and assume management in the reorganization. Yes, I know the financial mess has traveled globally, but you can't assume the results in the US are going to be the results elsewhere. Factors are different. Each region needs to be managed separately.

For GM to even TRY to absorb Chrysler, as you say, when the consensus is there is no good reason- and then try to PRETEND that it is a wise move? Wow. No wonder GM stocks are dumping to 60 year lows, management is still involved in crazy risk taking despite being in dire financial straights.

Looks to me a like a sign that things are going to get even WORSE at GM, and the financial troubles at GM are already staggering.

You do the math. It's NOT good.

But... But... But... aren't you the one who's been telling us for the past week that this is just rumor mill and media spin? Did you just catch up to the rest of us? We've been seriously gnawing on this situation for a while now while you've been in denial. We've been saying for a year that Chrysler was in the worst position of the Big Three while you've been trying to convince us we're wrong. Who's had "Automaker blindness"?

Be glad someone is even considering them in today's climate. If I were GM or Nissan-Renault, I'd just step back and let them collapse.

[CMG]

Yes they have... several times. Too many times to count. Just pretend to know history. Okay?

LOL

I kinda THINK I was talking about the GM/Chrysler situation, but THANKS!

hahaha

[CMG]

But... But... But... aren't you the one who's been telling us for the past week that this is just rumor mill and media spin? Did you just catch up to the rest of us? We've been seriously gnawing on this situation for a while now while you've been in denial. We've been saying for a year that Chrysler was in the worst position of the Big Three while you've been trying to convince us we're wrong. Who's had "Automaker blindness"?

When the same media reports two conflicting stories, I would have to say the media was wrong in ONE of those stories...?

:AH-HA_wink:

I haven't been in "denial" of anything. I think a merger between Cerberus and GM would be BAD for the domestic auto market. Simple as that.

If you think it would be GOOD for the domestic auto market, let me know HOW you think it would be good for the domestic auto market.

Most people who post on automotive enthusiast forums have "automaker blindness" one way or another. I'm blindy domestic if anything.

You guys carry on, I'll just watch! Do your thing!

[VenSeattle]

LOL

I kinda THINK I was talking about the GM/Chrysler situation, but THANKS!

hahaha

But... that's not what you said. LOL

[CMG]

But... that's not what you said. LOL

I'M a MoPar guy Ven.

Helllooooooo?!?!?!

:AH-HA_wink:

I know all the mish-mash stuff over the years better than anybody.

haha

[buyacargetacheck]

Seems very possible.

Cerberus is giving GM the opportunity to do the entire domestic auto industry a favor -- slash excess vehicle production. Even when sales were high the industry was making too many vehicles. Now, maybe GM won't have to offer as much in incentives once the recession passes = higher profits.

In the meantime, I can see GM shutting down/selling all of Chrysler's plants except Belvidere (Patriot, new Grand Cherokee moved from Jefferson, Caliber and Compass cancelled), Brampton (Challenger, Charger, 300), Toledo (Wrangler, Liberty), Windsor (minivans), Warren or Saltillo (drastically reduced output of Ram and variants). This will help profitability for GM's small, mid-sized cars and full-sized trucks.

summing things up... this the plan? -

1 ) GM takes the money.

2 ) GM immediately eliminates white-collar redundancy between GM and former Chrysler LLC.

3 ) GM immediately stops all future product development for the Dodge, Chrysler, Pontiac, and GMC brands.

4 ) GM continues Jeep product development.

5 ) GM lets the Chrysler/Dodge/JEEP (CDJ) dealers wither and reduce their number by natural selection.

6 ) GM uses Chrysler minivans and plants to develop and produce (competitor) GM brand versions (circa 2010 debut-probably Chevy & Buick (GL8/Terraza replacement for the US & China. T&C equivalent-possibly keep the name too)

7 ) GM uses Chrysler LX/LY platform and plants to develop and produce (competitor) GM brand versions (circa 2010 debut-Chevy, Buick, & Cadillac versions)

8 ) GM uses Chrysler's hybrid technology and integrates it into GM platforms and brands.

9 ) GM slowly shuts down former Chrysler LLC plants as demand dries up for the various vehicles produced.

10 ) GM offers JEEP at remaining BPG dealers (between 2009-2011.)

11 ) GM offer Buick(new Buick LaCrosse, Regal, and Enclave) and Saturn through remaining CDJ dealers (between 2009-2011.)

12 ) GM offers Saturn at remaining BPG dealers (between 2009-2011.)

13 ) GM begins the phase out of GMC, Pontiac, Chrysler, & Dodge (between 2009-2012.)

14 ) Buick-Saturn-JEEP dealer chain completed around 2012.

Edited October 19, 2008 by buyacargetacheck

[Chicagoland]

Mopar's Jefferson plant is fairly new, wouldnt that maybe be kept?

I dunno, this 'merger' is too hard to believe, yet will maybe happen. All because of greed, the SUV mania, and bad PR.

[thegriffon]

The will keep Jeep, sell Dodge trucks to Nissan (who will be reselling them anyway and sharing engines), share the vans, kill the Sprinter, sell Chrysler and the remains of Dodge (perhaps to Renault, perhaps to several parties) sell GEMA etc.. Aspen, Durango, Dakota, Compass, PT Cruiser, Sebring etc. are dead, Although they may find buyers for the Sebring, Compass and PT Cruiser tooling. The Chinese will ask about the engine plants or tooling but won't offer much money, and they may even find a buyer for the Dakota tooling.

If I was running Mitsubishi I'd be asking how cheaply I could get the Dodge car and crossover lineup (most of which is already Mitsubishi-based) and the Phoenix V6 program, GAZ and I'd be asking about the 300 to replace the Volga and Chrysler's share in the world engine, PSA and the Chrysler brand's North American operations (they bought almost everything else in the '70s) to sell rebadged Citroens and the Viper platform as a showcase for the V12 turbodiesel (a modern, Peugeot-badged Talbot Lago).

If the banks want to engineer a merger they should be looking at combining Isuzu, Navistar, Iveco and GM's North and South American medium truck business (in exchange for cash and Navistar's light diesel operations). That's a much-needed combination offering global reach, immense synergies, a good return and low risk, placing the combined entity (International VEhicle COrp. is an obvious name choice) in a better position v. Volvo and Daimler.

[Croc]

I honestly think this whole thing is just absurd. At this point, I don't give a $h! what happens because at the end of the day I'm still going to be in LA, driving my Aurora, and there will be a bottle of Maker's Mark and some cigarettes waiting back at the apartment.

I'm not surprised Chrysler's going out; that's been a long time coming. They have no presence outside of North America, they have had to partner up with Mitsubishi for decades to develop bread and butter product, the quality has been $h!eous, and the whole thing with D-B was just a huge clusterf@#k.

GM is a whole different story, except it isn't. I just don't see the actual value of two incompetent companies joining...it's almost like the worst of both worlds.

[2005 EquinoxLS]

To me if this does happen it will be a long time coming. How many times can you almost die and be brought back to life? They have had nine lives and they are on life number 9. I am sure the Chrysler minivans are very nice. Maybe GM can make them so they last longer than 60,000 miles before they self destruct like so many of the newer ones seem to do. Trying to wonder what else is useful from Chrysler? If I think of something I will get back to you all.

[thegriffon]

Chrysler Jeep and Dodge do have a presence outside North America in both RHD and LHD markets, and unlike other companies building cars in NA has an extensive export program, their only source of growth. The Caravan and Voyager in particular are popular worldwide, and although the segment is not as strong elsewhere the Chrysler models have been widely recognized around the world as the most popular or award winning large MPVs. Dodge has also been launched in global markets—I regularly see the Nitro and Caliber and the Chrysler Voyager (formerly an Austrian-built Plymouth with a Chrysler logo but now the Town and Country by another name) has been the best selling minivan in the Austalian market, or near to it, despite its rather high asking price.

[Croc]

Point taken. I will say, though, that in my travels abroad, particularly in Europe, I have seen nary a Chrysler or Dodge branded vehicle. Exports may be their only source of growth, but what kind of growth is it? Is it the kind of growth that Cadillac has seen in Europe? By that I mean, is Chrysler's growth the result of having little else to go but up?

Kinda like Suzuki in the US...sure, they have a presence in the physical sense...but they have no real presence in the marketplace--Suzuki definitely goes in the "Wait...they still sell those?" column.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So many of these suggestions fly in the face of criticisms made far & wide & repeatedly. GMC is criticised as 'badge-engineered' & redundant, ignoring the steady fat profit the division makes. Instead, as GM's finances were as in 1968, keeping the Ram truck line is heralded as a potential good move when they share nothing whatsoever. In a period where the truck market is sliding steadily, 'we're' in favor of dropping a successful platform mate & truck line dating back to 1900 to replace it with a completely autonomous line from another company ?? Am I reading this correctly ???

Frankly, I would prefer the GMC name to continue but absorb the Dodge truck in it's next redesign (and the 'GMC' design language go over to Chevy).... but I doubt the money is there to run 2 autonomous truck lines at once these days.

+1

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Why couldn't the Ram be offered under JEEP as long as it's viable? Throw a JEEP grill on it and call it a day.

I think that is an excellent idea.

[Robert Hall]

Point taken. I will say, though, that in my travels abroad, particularly in Europe, I have seen nary a Chrysler or Dodge branded vehicle. Exports may be their only source of growth, but what kind of growth is it? Is it the kind of growth that Cadillac has seen in Europe? By that I mean, is Chrysler's growth the result of having little else to go but up?

Kinda like Suzuki in the US...sure, they have a presence in the physical sense...but they have no real presence in the marketplace--Suzuki definitely goes in the "Wait...they still sell those?" column.

Yeah, not many...I've seen a few Chrysler Neons, 300s, and Sebring convertibles in Europe over the last few years...a lot of Jeeps, though...the old style XJ Cherokees, the Liberty (aka Cherokee), Wranglers, and a lot of Grand Cherokee Limiteds.

[VenSeattle]

there will be a bottle of Maker's Mark and some cigarettes waiting back at the apartment.

Good taste... definitely try Woodford Reserve if you haven't already.

I noticed several Jeeps in England. Not so much on the mainland.

[CARBIZ]

Even though our market it puny, the Ram outsells the Silverado in Canada. It's GMC that is the one to beat here.

Just thought I'd throw that out there..................

[ZL-1]

What better way to ask for a bailout from the American government when you represent 2/3 of the American Automotive sector.

An attempt at a power play during an election year, or right after a new President is elected and has to start showing results... Who would have thought that would ever happen?

[Robert Hall]

Even though our market it puny, the Ram outsells the Silverado in Canada. It's GMC that is the one to beat here.

Just thought I'd throw that out there..................

Really? Interesting....GMC sells a fraction of what Chevy does in the US, I think.

[Croc]

Good taste... definitely try Woodford Reserve if you haven't already.

Thank you, I'll give it a shot...yea that wasn't intended.

[Chicagoland]

Well, supposedly RWD V8 cars were to 'save Detroit' per many on here. Look at Mopar now, those LX cars sure were their 'savior'.

[A Horse With No Name]

The LH cars IMHO don't have good resale value AT ALL, though. Going to the local pick-and -pull to help a guy pull a hood and fender for a Fox body stang, I noticed a bunch of LH cars, many of them newer than 2000 and a few of them with under 100k on the clock.

Guy at the yard said they were crushing them whole, there was very little demand for the cars or their parts.

At another yard I was getting some other parts, and another LH car came in, clean, ran, was crushed before they had even pulled the lic. plates.

I've seen the FWD letter cars in decent shape sell for under 2k around here. Great design...no one wants them.

The RWD cars, OTOH, seem to bring a pretty good resale.

Lower sales, but a more desireable car.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Which end of the car might be driving the wheels has nothing to do with Chrysler's predicament.

[Chicagoland]

Sure the LX cars are popular, but they sure didnt 'save Detroit, nor did they usher in the 'return of RWD for everyone'.

OTOH, GM RWD fans may finally see the return of the Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood, if GM buys the LX and changes badges.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Chicagoland