GM and Chrysler are in Merger talks!

[MyerShift]

No No No!

This is terrible in so many ways. The negatives far outway the positives.

See all the other posts for support without me beating a dead horse.

Mainly, the problems are increased complexity of GM, the death of Chrysler, reduced domestic competition, and there is no true logic financially from my point of view.

A partnership rather than a total tie-up with another automaker would be best for one as small as Chrysler.

[ketch]

As was said about Packard merging with Studebaker back in '54, "its like two drunks helping each other across the street" . One didn't make it, Packard, then the other went out of course.

Sorry, see no point in GM taking this on. Drop divisions back to Caddy, Chevy and one other, and call it done. Run away from DCX

Edited October 12, 2008 by ketch

[A Horse With No Name]

As was said about Packard merging with Studebaker back in '54, "its like two drunks helping each other across the street" . One didn't make it, Packard, then the other went out of course.

Sorry, see no point in GM taking this on. Drop divisions back to Caddy, Chevy and one other, and call it done. Run away from DCX

+1

Chris

[gm4life]

I would support 4 core divisions Buick-Cadillac-Chevrolet-Pontiac.

[A Horse With No Name]

I would support 4 core divisions Buick-Cadillac-Chevrolet-Pontiac.

...and something else we agree on.

Also, while we disagree about politics, I do see you as very concerned about the future of our nation, and I'm glad you are as passionate about that as you are GM.

Now, let's see if we can keep GM going!

Chris

[hyperv6]

Believe it or not, I see this pretty much as Evok does.

This is a survival tactic and likely spells the end for Chrysler.

Sad, but I can see the logic.

I agree.

Other than the Mini Vans and Jeep Wranglers Chrysler really has little going for it. Their mid size and small cars just are not on the map and even with new trucks if gas goes back up they will be sitting on the dealer lots.

The RWD cars are not selling as they once were and their new electric cars really are noting special other than the Lotus that is mostly a halo car.

I too thought about Daimler and their stake in this. I wondered how much input they have here.

I expect it will take at least 6 months for the economy to make any improvement. That is based on what the treasury department is now doing with the bank buy in's and if it works. Now if it fails to stop Wall Street this week from plungging the whole industry will be in total arrest.

In the end GM will make it as the goverment needs to preserve at least them and Ford. To manny other industries would fail if they do not prop them up. But the out look could be very different.

I just pray it never comes to a British leyland type deal. We already have a goverment that can't run anything right and the last thing GM needs is a Al Gore type over seeing them.

Edited October 12, 2008 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

Last I heard (a week or so ago) Cerebus was planning to buy out Daimler's remaining share in Chrysler.

Sweetening the deal for GM?

[Oracle of Delphi]

I never said which assets were worth keeping and I never said GM would even get Jeep.

I never said you did, I do believe, I said they should keep Jeep. Since Cerberus is ready to buy out Daimler's shares in Chrysler anyway, I doubt that Daimler will want Jeep since they will no longer have a stake in the company any longer.

[Oracle of Delphi]

This is a survival tactic and likely spells the end for Chrysler.

Sad, but I can see the logic.

Considering that GM had meetings about the possibility of either selling off or spinning off GMDAT, GME and GM Holden to generate cash and even shutting down GMNA to accomplish the same goal. I see this as a better solution to survival, than selling or spinning off the subsidiaries as if they were the HUMMER brand.

[Camino LS6]

Considering that GM had meetings about the possibility of either selling off or spinning off GMDAT, GME and GM Holden to generate cash and even shutting down GMNA to accomplish the same goal. I see this as a better solution to survival, than selling or spinning off the subsidiaries as if they were the HUMMER brand.

Well...

No, I'm not taking the bait there - I do see your point.

Rough times.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well...

No, I'm not taking the bait there - I do see your point.

Rough times.

Talk to Z28, I spoke to him in depth about this on Friday afternoon before the news broke about Cerberus.

[Sixty8panther]

I would support 4 core divisions Buick-Cadillac-Chevrolet-Pontiac.

Here in the USA: okay... if you add GMC.

Dump SAAB, Saturn & Hummer.

Although Saturn should be brought into the Buick Pontiac GMC

family subtly to emphasize that its' product line will be "given"

to Pontiac and then slowly, kind of like the Datsun name on

the Nissan products sold in the USA, have the Saturn name

fade inot the sunset.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

LOL

The import crowd must be laughing reading all these threads and posts.

Well, this is what they and the media wanted right?

I mean, when you have people in the financial circle saying that the market has decided that america no longer needs 3 automakers, yet it certainly needs 12 import automakers, what else do they expect?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Here in the USA: okay... if you add GMC.

Dump SAAB, Saturn & Hummer.

Although Saturn should be brought into the Buick Pontiac GMC

family subtly to emphasize that its' product line will be "given"

to Pontiac and then slowly, kind of like the Datsun name on

the Nissan products sold in the USA, have the Saturn name

fade inot the sunset.

You know 68, I don't think you have a clue as to how bad off financially GM really is.

[A Horse With No Name]

Considering that GM had meetings about the possibility of either selling off or spinning off GMDAT, GME and GM Holden to generate cash and even shutting down GMNA to accomplish the same goal. I see this as a better solution to survival, than selling or spinning off the subsidiaries as if they were the HUMMER brand.

Wow!

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You must be blind if you dont see all the Toyota hatred on C&G. GM4life once started a thread in which he stated he wanted to kill Toyota drivers, or something to that effect.

The way I see it, Cerebrus never wanted to keep Chrysler, thats not what they do, so I wouldn't be surprised if they at least tried to feel out GM for some sort of sale/asset swap/whatever. GM could then use the Chrysler products that do sell while dumping the rest. They would have to keep at least one of the 3 brands around (probably Dodge, maybe Chrysler) to avoid having to pay out billions to close all their dealerships, even then Chrysler/Dodge dont have nearly as many shared dealerships as GM, so even closing down one sales channel would be expensive. Jeep would be a welcome addition to the GM lineup.

Think of the alternative, Toyota could buy Chrysler.

Then, instead of Saturn lobbying to be paired with Buick & GMC, they could be paired with the existing Chrysler brand(s)

Just a thought...

[A Horse With No Name]

You know 68, I don't think you have a clue as to how bad off financially GM really is.

I don't either. Where can I get actual hard information about this?

Chris

[Sixty8panther]

You know 68, I don't think you have a clue as to how bad off financially GM really is.

perhaps, but they certainly are NOT in any shape

to be buying one of their biggest competitors.

[CMG]

Well, this is what they and the media wanted right?

I mean, when you have people in the financial circle saying that the market has decided that america no longer needs 3 automakers, yet it certainly needs 12 import automakers, what else do they expect?

I just don't get "mainstream America".

They attack their own domestics freely while opening their doors to foreign garbage.

No wonder things are unravelling the way they are.

[Robert Hall]

I don't either. Where can I get actual hard information about this?

Chris

Just looking at the numbers, it's not a pretty picture..

Google Finance: GM

[CARBIZ]

I just don't get "mainstream America".

They attack their own domestics freely while opening their doors to foreign garbage.

No wonder things are unravelling the way they are.

There was a show on CNBC last week, entitled 'Saving General Motors.' It was an interesting piece. Nothing new, but well-balanced. They interviewed Chinese people in China who were buying a Chevy and asked why they had chosen Chevrolet. The response was that the American manufacturer has the proven history and the quality. I had a good laugh on that one. Funny thing is, with over 20% of the population in the Greater Toronto Area being Asian, why do they suddenly snap up Japanese cars once they are on this side of the ocean? What gets lost in the translation? Their kin in China seem to want to buy 'foreign,' but once here, they won't buy 'domestic.'

Is that what passes as logic these days?

[Sixty8panther]

I just don't get "mainstream America".

They attack their own domestics freely while opening their doors to foreign garbage.

No wonder things are unravelling the way they are.

Yup, it's stupifying, saddening and most days enough to piss me off to no end!

[Sixty8panther]

*Make huge reductions in Chrysler white-collar work force (product devlopment, administrative, sales, marketing, etc) and combine the left over operations with GM's own team.

Reduce Domestic production/jobs. BAD.

*Eliminate excess Chrysler capacity over time by redesigning and making products on GM platforms and plants. Those plants that closed could be sold off to a foreign automaker seeking to establish a presence in the United States (Fiat, PSA Puegot Citroen, etc) or sold to parts-suppliers.

and thereby REDUCING overall domestic car production, selling off jobs, people's

futures etc. while opening the door, and frankly rolling out a red carpet for more

import cars, some of which might end up hurting GM more than even Toyota.

*Continue to consolidate Chrysler's dealer network. Cerberus has already started on this and GM would look to accelerate it just as they are pushing to do the same on their end. The resulting combined company would end up having a greatly reduced dealer footprint to bring it more in line with their competitors.

Yup.... that's wat we need less, less, less..... While the Japanese grow by leaps

and bounds we,the domestic car manufacturers have a fool proof plan to hold

up and wave the white flag.

[enzl]

I know we don't want to hear this, but this is clearly the last act of a desperate situation.

There is simply NO legitimate biz reason for GM to take on Chrysler or vice-versa. As many of us (ahem) have been saying for years, the simple biz math at all 3 domestics has been highly negative for years--this economic downturn, while somewhat sudden and severe, is an exaggerated version of business cycles that are part of the US/Global economy.

If the Dom 3 couldn't make money in the last few years with 15-16 million US sales, the odds of them doing it at 75% of that market is what?

All of that 'good enough' effort has is now seeing it's final effect: a handful of cars selling, the sad tatters of a cratered SUV/Pickup market and a slew of dealers (700+ by some estimates, a majority dom branded) gone by 2009...this is the exclamation point on the fact that most Americans have moved on--the Big 3 mean little to them.

Whether all of the above HAD to happen is my issue with the leadership in place at GM--this wasn't the only outcome possible---a failure at the helm has made this possible, sadly.

[smk4565]

LOL

Cerberus owns over 50% of GMAC don't they?

Maybe Cerberus wants to unload THAT portion of their "worthless" assets...???

But it is a GM-Chrysler merger, not GM-Cerebus. And even GMAC is barely making money now with the mortgage and banking problems. Cerebus owns 51% of GMAC, I doubt GM wants it back.

[smk4565]

Where is Kirk Kerkorian? This is his chance to buy GM, Ford or Chrysler. I don't know why he was buying 10% stakes in those companies in the past, and here is the chance to buy 100% and he is nowhere to be found. Which is probably better for the Detroit 3, but I am just surprised his name hasn't come up.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I just don't get "mainstream America".

They attack their own domestics freely while opening their doors to foreign garbage.

No wonder things are unravelling the way they are.

I know, isn't it great!

Sweet revenge.

LOL.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Where is Kirk Kerkorian? This is his chance to buy GM, Ford or Chrysler. I don't know why he was buying 10% stakes in those companies in the past, and here is the chance to buy 100% and he is nowhere to be found. Which is probably better for the Detroit 3, but I am just surprised his name hasn't come up.

He had Nissan in his pocket.

I think that's the only reason he was buying up domestic producers.

He doesn't really want an automaker, he just wanted to make the merger happen and get paid.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This just in from GMI, where they have a thread talking about what GM might look like post-merger: http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f60/gm-...t-merger-70156/

Assuming the company were combined our insider says a four-channel sales strategy would continue and would be established as: Chevrolet, Dodge-Jeep, Saturn-Buick-Pontiac, and Saab-Cadillac.

I don't see how this dealer structure would work. B/P/GMC dealers had enough clout to get themselves both a rebadged Cobalt and Aveo, does anyone really think they'd let go of GMC so easily? Even in these economic down times I still see plenty of GMCs, both privately owned and on job sites. Heck, the local dealer can't keep Acadias on the lot. This strategy doesn't make sense to me.

Interesting...

Like I mentioned earlier, Chrysler is Chrysler Corps weakest division and would be gone. As far as GMC... Well, the only logic I could see there is 1) the truck side of the market is set to be a lot smaller. 2) GMC and Chevy duplicate a lot and 3) Dodge has more truck sales.

I guess the above 4 channels would be the easiest way to go.

Saab/Cadillac loses Hummer as it is sold off. Chevrolet remains the same. Saturn gets its opportunity to grow and Pontiac gets its opportunity to live. And the Dodge-Jeep dealers are already formed, so GM would just have to phase out Chrysler.

I just wonder what the focus of the divisions would be... Mainly Pontiac, Chevrolet and Dodge since they're all focused at essentially the same market. Maybe this will lead to the more focused Pontiac that we all wanted. I guess Chevrolet would still be the volume division and Dodge could maybe be limited somehow? I dunno.

I really have NEVER seen the issue with having 2 volume divisions. If you have excellent product for both divisions, then wouldn't that equate to even more sales/pressure on the asians? But apparently a lot of people think that's a bad idea.

Edited October 12, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[A Horse With No Name]

I just don't get "mainstream America".

They attack their own domestics freely while opening their doors to foreign garbage.

No wonder things are unravelling the way they are.

We don't value work, esp. blue collar work in this country. Hence, we outsource it.

I don't understand this thinking either. I'm 43, and IMHO my generation needs to hang their head in shame at what we've done with this nation we've been given.

Chris

[Oracle of Delphi]

Interesting...

Like I mentioned earlier, Chrysler is Chrysler Corps weakest division and would be gone. As far as GMC... Well, the only logic I could see there is 1) the truck side of the market is set to be a lot smaller. 2) GMC and Chevy duplicate a lot and 3) Dodge has more truck sales.

I guess the above 4 channels would be the easiest way to go.

Saab/Cadillac loses Hummer as it is sold off. Chevrolet remains the same. Saturn gets its opportunity to grow and Pontiac gets its opportunity to live. And the Dodge-Jeep dealers are already formed, so GM would just have to phase out Chrysler.

I just wonder what the focus of the divisions would be... Mainly Pontiac, Chevrolet and Dodge since they're all focused at essentially the same market. Maybe this will lead to the more focused Pontiac that we all wanted. I guess Chevrolet would still be the volume division and Dodge could maybe be limited somehow? I dunno.

I really have NEVER seen the issue with having 2 volume divisions. If you have excellent product for both divisions, then wouldn't that equate to even more sales/pressure on the asians? But apparently a lot of people think that's a bad idea.

No way is GM going to keep Dodge and Pontiac as they compete for the same type of buyer. I doubt either will survive since GM is moving away from brands that are only based in North America as Dodge and Pontiac are.

[VenSeattle]

No way is GM going to keep Dodge and Pontiac as they compete for the same type of buyer. I doubt either will survive since GM is moving away from brands that are only based in North America as Dodge and Pontiac are.

So, do you see a three-channel sales strategy?

Chevrolet-Chevrolet Trucks

Buick-Saturn-Jeep

SAAB-Cadillac

[Oracle of Delphi]

So, do you see a three-channel sales strategy?

Chevrolet-Chevrolet Trucks

Buick-Saturn-Jeep

SAAB-Cadillac

I will wait until I see what shakes out, my understanding is the talks are stalled.

[evok]

I never said you did, I do believe, I said they should keep Jeep. Since Cerberus is ready to buy out Daimler's shares in Chrysler anyway, I doubt that Daimler will want Jeep since they will no longer have a stake in the company any longer.

PSC, Daimler does have a stake in the company as they continue to own 20% of Chrysler and Cerberus owes Daimler at least 2 billion dollars. If any sort of deal goes through, that must be considered. With GM and Cerberus on the brink, GM really not needing anymore brands, Jeep not being an intergral part of Chrysler, the Jeep plants and brand can be cut relatively easily. Given Jeep will "never" again sell a big number of suvs in the US again there is little brand equity left in the volume market. GM also does not have the cash or time that would be required to sustain Jeep going foward. GM cannot manage the brands they currently have. Daimler keeping Jeep and moving it upscale ala Rover makes a lot more sense. If GM does keep the brand, something has to give on the GM side. Freaking Hyundai spends more money on R&D and capital investments than GM. I will repeat, Hyundai with 2 major brands out spends General Motors with their collection of niche nameplates on new product.

A GM-Chrysler merger makes no sense unless the deal includes Chrysler's cash on hand (app. 10 billion USD) or GM can convince the Federal government a real bailout is required to preserve the US company.

GM right now has a market cap of about 3 billion dollars and over 30 billion dollars of debt. Factor in the frozen credit markets GM has no ability to raise cash on its own. Whatever assets they have left to pawn, will be sold at pennies on the dollar. GM is have trouble taking out a home equity loan on the Ren Cen right now. GM trying to use GMDAT, GME, OnStar as collateral for a loan from a bank will not happen in today's economic climate.

If not GM will have to replace the surgical scapel wil a spoon to make the necessary cuts. GM needs the cash not the company. I believe GM is scheduled to make an announcement about production cuts this week. Any bets on GM will announce a shutdown of NAO for an extended period? GMAC is not funding the dealer's floor plan like they used to which means GM has no buyers for the vehicles they make.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Again Cerberus offered just last week to buy the remaining 19% of Daimler shares that Daimler holds. If the merger goes through I feel GM will hold on to Jeep. Jeep is a world brand and has a good reputation worldwide. Something that GM likes these days, are brands that are recognized in more than one market. It all may be a moot point anyway, since I am told the talks are stalled.

Edited October 12, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[evok]

Again Cerberus offered just last week to buy the remaining 19% of Daimler shares that Daimler holds. If the merger goes through I feel GM will hold on to Jeep. Jeep is a world brand and has a good reputation worldwide. Something that GM likes these days, are brands that are recognized in more than one market. It all may be a moot point anyway, since I am told the talks are stalled.

The terms have yet to come out as to what Cerberus was going to use to buy the remaining 19.9% they do not own. It remains a valid point of discussion because Daimler is still in this.

Jeep is a US brand that sells a very small percentage around the world. That is one of Chrysler's biggest weakness as a company, they are not a global company. About 90% of Chrysler's sales are in the US and Canada. Chrysler's European foot print is small. Last I looked Chrysler sells about 100,000 vehicles in Europe including Jeep.

GM also proposed a merger with Ford according to yesterday's NY Times article (Ford shot them down) and now something with Cerberus/Chrysler. This was all prior to this utter disaster, great reckoning that is happening to the financial industry and what will happen to this economy.

These moves by GM seem very desparate to me and do not come across as GM raising a red flag but a white one.

Edited October 12, 2008 by evok

[CMG]

So, do you see a three-channel sales strategy?

Yes I do.

Chrysler- luxury leaning cars and minivans.

Dodge- economy, utilitarian and performance oriented cars/trucks/minivans.

Jeep- off road vehicles.

[CMG]

It all may be a moot point anyway, since I am told the talks are stalled.

Say this again.

But LOUDER.

:AH-HA_wink:

[thegriffon]

Cerberus:"How much money will you give us for Chrysler?"

GM:"No, how much money will you give us for Chrysler?"

[CMG]

Is this the best this forum has to offer?

[Lamar]

Cerberus:"How much money will you give us for Chrysler?"

GM:"No, how much money will you give us for Chrysler?"

and

[ZL-1]

GM also proposed a merger with Ford according to yesterday's NY Times article (Ford shot them down) and now something with Cerberus/Chrysler. This was all prior to this utter disaster, great reckoning that is happening to the financial industry and what will happen to this economy.

These moves by GM seem very desparate to me and do not come across as GM raising a red flag but a white one.

Trying to gain leverage in dealing with Washington comes to mind... Wishing for a repeat of the 1980 Chrysler bailout...

[CMG]

Trying to gain leverage in dealing with Washington comes to mind... Wishing for a repeat of the 1980 Chrysler bailout...

Any money that *could* be used for "bailouts" is now flowing into the banking sector.

Besides, the debt of GM compared to the debt of Chrysler in the late 70s isn't comparable in any way.

Financial troubles will destroy domestic automakers, and the "company that is too big to go under" arguments will go the way of the banking institutions that thought the same way.....

[gm4life]

...and something else we agree on.

Also, while we disagree about politics, I do see you as very concerned about the future of our nation, and I'm glad you are as passionate about that as you are GM.

Now, let's see if we can keep GM going!

Chris

Bless you I do agree that we need to keep GM going and we need to something about our country. I just don't want to see General Chrysler.

[regfootball]

if GM buys chrysler does that put them in a position to dissolve dealer agreements? (i.e. cut dealers out of their franchises and consolidate brands?)

i could see GM considering this to eliminate ram trucks as competition and gain access to an ungainly minivan chassis.

to me the best thing that would come of out of this is putting the avenger and sebring out of their misery and off our roads.

In any case I think the best thing for GM to do would be to consolidate Chevy with BPG. this would allow them to cut rebadges and cut number of models from Buick and Pontiac. I would allow those two brands to survive, but allow them to be special and unique and carry the torch for more expensive models in a chevy showroom.

Cadillac should be able to be set up and marketed however they see fit.

I believe Saab should stay, but I hedge on whether it should be paired with Saturn or Cadillac, I see advantages to either. Saturn needs to continue to be the GM Europe outlet in America (insignia and all).

To me though the key is merging BPG with CHevy. Chevy needs the upscale models and BPG needs to be folded into volume oriented setting to survive.

At this point, fold Chrysler and Dodge and be done with it. Part out Jeep.

Edited October 12, 2008 by regfootball

[A Horse With No Name]

Neither do I. In the long run I think it would hurt both companies, even if they could get a bail out. While I have bought a couple-3 Japanese vehicles and plan on buying a couple of German or British cars...I do buy mostly domestic and want to own a nice, new GM car as one of my next purchases.

Sad that just as GM really starts building the stuff that people want their stock runs at ten cents to the dollar of what it was a few months ago. We have lots of friends with new GM stuff (my daugher Christina's Girl Scout troop leader just bought new Vue) and everyone just seems to love the new stuff Gm is building. You should see the smile on my neighbors face every time she drives her Solstice!

Sad to think of something happen to Chrysler also. Joel, my son and I just took a little trip with my father in law in his town and Country and I was very impressed...NICE vehicle.

Let's see if all of the efforts of the good people in Michigan can keep things going.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

if GM buys chrysler does that put them in a position to dissolve dealer agreements? (i.e. cut dealers out of their franchises and consolidate brands?)

i could see GM considering this to eliminate ram trucks as competition and gain access to an ungainly minivan chassis.

to me the best thing that would come of out of this is putting the avenger and sebring out of their misery and off our roads.

What we really need is another car like the 60's Valiant, runs 4-ever, ugly as sin but also good looking in a goofy sort of way, and full of charactor.

Chrysler can and should build such a car.

Chris

[gm4life]

Neither do I. In the long run I think it would hurt both companies, even if they could get a bail out. While I have bought a couple-3 Japanese vehicles and plan on buying a couple of German or British cars...I do buy mostly domestic and want to own a nice, new GM car as one of my next purchases.

Sad that just as GM really starts building the stuff that people want their stock runs at ten cents to the dollar of what it was a few months ago. We have lots of friends with new GM stuff (my daugher Christina's Girl Scout troop leader just bought new Vue) and everyone just seems to love the new stuff Gm is building. You should see the smile on my neighbors face every time she drives her Solstice!

Sad to think of something happen to Chrysler also. Joel, my son and I just took a little trip with my father in law in his town and Country and I was very impressed...NICE vehicle.

Let's see if all of the efforts of the good people in Michigan can keep things going.

Chris

Would wouldn't love a Solstice? And GM is cranking out some very nice products that need no excuses.

[hyperv6]

At this point I would be shocked if this deal was anything more than Cerberus just wanting GMAC and trying to work a deal with GM for some assets or investment in GM by Cerberus.

Cerberus is already trying to sell the Viper. What else could they be selling or offering that is of any value to GM?

Money or investment is really all GM would really wants from Cerberus.

I suspect Cerberus may sell off Chrysler part by part as no one wants them and they have become an even larger money pit. They have no small or mid size cars that are worth anything. The trucks are new but not selling. The Jeep wrangler and Mini Van are the only things they have of interest to anyone. How long till the vans are sold to VW and not just rebadged?

With GM selling off their offces in downtown I can't see them taking on any liabilities from Chrysler and they have plenty.

It will be interesting what this is all about let alone if anything even happens.

Edited October 13, 2008 by hyperv6

[Robert Hall]

What we really need is another car like the 60's Valiant, runs 4-ever, ugly as sin but also good looking in a goofy sort of way, and full of charactor.

Chrysler can and should build such a car.

Chris

It's too bad they killed Plymouth.... I think some affordable, efficient Plymouths could do well in today's market. And Valiant is a name that still has positive brand equity...