Honda Slashes Ridgeline Production

[cmattson]

I seriously don't see the same level of cross-shopping between Ridgeline and Colorado as I do Ridgeline and Avalanche.

Colorado doesn't offer a fraction of the functionality and "style" of the Ridgeline and Avalanche.

I think in this case, looking at the REALITY of the marketplace, you are far more likely to have people shopping functionality, style, utility, etc. than you are having them shop Colorado and Ridgeline JUST because their weights, prices, and overall size are closer.

I can't disagree with your dimensions you quoted, but I gotta tell you my impression is that Ridgeline has WAY more room inside than Colorado....and seems way bigger on the outside. Perception is reality I think in many people's minds.....

By style, you mean the sloping bed-sides? Other than that, what does the Ridgeline share with the Avalanche? They look the most, exterior-panel-wise, but after that, the Colorado is clearly the closest competitor (in Chevy's lineup) to the Ridgeline.

[The O.C.]

By style, you mean the sloping bed-sides?  Other than that, what does the Ridgeline share with the Avalanche?  They look the most, exterior-panel-wise, but after that, the Colorado is clearly the closest competitor (in Chevy's lineup) to the Ridgeline.

[post="38246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You have to look at the markets.....and the consumers IN the market......and see what vehicles they are most likely to cross-shop. Perhaps EVOK could find some actual data concerning cross-shopping in the various pickup segments...?

Colorado is a very mainstream compact pickup with little-to-no innovation in architecture or features over what is considered a "traditional" pickup truck.

Ridgeline could HARDLY be called a mainstream "pickup truck" for good OR for worse. The only other thing out there in (perceived) size, price, and capability that shares part of the Ridgeline's unique positioning in the segment IS Avalanche. You MIGHT call the SportTrac (Ford) a competitor as well as it is a "pickup truck" that's based upon an SUV chassis/architecture.

I don't even see Tacoma and Frontier aficionados cross-shopping with Ridgeline.....

[daves87rs]

Wow, evok is kinda getting beat up here... I think the simple idea that Evok is trying to get across is that thr Ridgeline is by no means a failure, just Honda trying to add sales to its bottom line... The part that gets me this that people try to group the Ridgeline into the Big 3's truck line...Why? If you really tried to compare this truck/car to an F-150, the Ford would just kill it in comparsion.....I think as much as people would like to think that this Honda's way to kill lots of Big 3 sales, they are dead wrong. With this thing, honda wanted to be different.....start its own part of the truck market.....its own piece of the pie. I think if Honda wanted to biuld the next F-150...they would have. While the sales aren't great, they are not bad either... And while the you could compare it to the Av, they really are for two different markets...

[BrewSwillis]

But it really does nothing better than a truck except maybe drive "nicer". It's not cheaper....it's interior in not nicer than some trucks....it's not better on fuel consumption......it doesn't have more power or capabilities. It looks like the market segment Honda was aiming for was people who think they might want a truck, but would only but a vehicle by Honda.

Seems like a very small market to me?


BTW, I found the Ridgeline's competition.....since you guys are saying that it doesn't compete with "trucks":

:P

[evok]

Wow, evok is kinda getting beat up here...

I think the simple idea that Evok is  trying to get across is that thr Ridgeline is
by no means a failure, just Honda trying to add sales to its bottom line...

The part that gets me this that people try to group the Ridgeline into the Big
3's truck line...Why? If you really tried to compare this truck/car to an F-150,
the Ford would just kill it in comparsion.....I think as much as people would like to think that this Honda's way to kill lots of Big 3 sales, they are dead wrong.
With this thing, honda wanted to be different.....start its own part of the truck
market.....its own piece of the pie.

I think if Honda wanted to biuld the next F-150...they would have.
While the sales aren't great, they are not bad either...

And while the you could compare it to the Av, they really are for two different markets...

[post="38282"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

How does one win an argument of biased opinions against Toyota, Honda, Nissan etc. I can't, especially when people refuse to see the reality of me comparing two niche pu trucks together. I will just sit back and let the sales figure be my guide. I will come back to this thread in 3 months and what I posted will be proven right assuming all things being equal.

And for the record, the Ridline will cool off at an annual sales rate of about 45 to 50k a year. And I still say that is a success. And for the record, the Titan and Tundra are success given the expectations. The Titan, Ridgline and Tundra were never designed or expected to get the volumes of the Big 3. Any person here that argues otherwise is a fool. The Japanese are just slowly getting there foot in the door and chipping away at the Big three. Let the midsize car and minivan market be your guide. Also remember, beyond commercial applications, most people do not need or use a BOF pick up truck for what it is designed for and the same goes for SUV's. You ever wonder why the new Colorado has reduced towing compared to the S-10?

[evok]

Lets see what Ridgline owners have to say:

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/...38233#post38233

[97regalGS]

How does one win an argument of biased opinions against Toyota, Honda, Nissan etc.  I can't, especially when people refuse to see the reality of me comparing two niche pu trucks together.  I will just sit back and let the sales figure be my guide.  I will come back to this thread in 3 months and what I posted will be proven right assuming all things being equal.

And for the record, the Ridline will cool off at an annual sales rate of about 45 to 50k a year.  And I still say that is a success.  And for the record, the Titan and Tundra are success given the expectations.  The Titan, Ridgline and Tundra were never designed or expected to get the volumes of the Big 3.  Any person here that argues otherwise is a fool.  The Japanese are just slowly getting there foot in the door and chipping away at the Big three.  Let the midsize car and minivan market be your guide.  Also remember, beyond commercial applications, most people do not need or use a BOF pick up truck for what it is designed for and the same goes for SUV's.  You ever wonder why the new Colorado has reduced towing compared to the S-10?

[post="38286"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

the difference between rational thought and emotional outburst.

[BrewSwillis]

Lets see what Ridgline owners have to say:

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/...38233#post38233

[post="38287"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There's an objective source! :rolleyes:


"I never should have spent $35K on a pseudo-truck. I could have had a real truck and actually used it like one"


Oh, sorry....that's not a direct quote.....I just made it up!

[BrewSwillis]

Today, 03:25 PM 
evok 
Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2 

Calling Ridgline Owner

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums...opic=2598&st=0

Perhaps some of you guys would like to chime in on this thread. I understand that the link I mentioned is a pro GM site. But I am interested in your thoughts on that site with regard to your likes and dislike about the Ridgline.

Ie

1) Did your cross shop other pickup and which one?
2) Did you buy it just because it is a Honda?
3) Are you a typical BOF pick up truck person?
4) Did you trade in a typical Body on Frame truck.
5) How did the Ridgline fill your daily needs?


I think you get the idea. Though I regularly post over at the site I mentioned, I am pretty level headed about the auto business and do not favor any one manufacturer. But, your views would be appreciated by me. I am not looking to start a war but get good discussion on the reasons why the Ridgline appeales to you and put real data out there. If your read my comments on the tread I posted, you will see my opinion of the Ridgline. Or just post on this thread and I will post a link on cheersandgears.com

O.K., seriously........What with the recent whoring of CheersandGears out to all of the Japanese message boards??? I'm starting to get sick of this.

You post on a Ridgeline Owners Board, with a link to this board, that shows alot of people making fun of this pseudo-truck.....and then you expect to get some kind of candid answers from people who spent $35K on a vehicle, that won't be swayed and angered by what we wrote here?

It's just like the Polish Kris post where he basically said....."Hey (insert Japanese car brand here) owners, look what these guys are saying about you."

It's BS! :angry2:

[J4F]

There's an objective source!  :rolleyes:
"I never should have spent $35K on a pseudo-truck.  I could have had a real truck and actually used it like one"
Oh, sorry....that's not a direct quote.....I just made it up!

[post="38291"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I am so glad you guys brought up a comparison between the Colorado and the Ridgeline. I recently made this comparison myself by actually test driving the Colorado (among others). The rear wheels wouldn't stop spinning on the pavement and the thing is small inside. Those are just the most glaring deficiencies to me. There is absolutely NO real comparison to the Colorado.

Here's some objectivity...I traded my Chevy Silverado 4x4 for the Ridgeline. Ooooh, bad word? I'm seeing more and more people like me out there in the real world. I've already been off-road and on a long road trip in my new truck and it is AWESOME! My old Chevy got 13 mpg, now I get 50% more!! I'm happy with that.

BTW, 30,000 Ridgelines have been sold. Ridgeline sales have been relatively steady as opposed to domestic truck & suv sales, which have been all over the map and barring another giveaway, are sure to continue to disappoint in the near future. You can only wish this for Honda.

And, no, Ridgeline owners won't be mad at what you say here. We're so happy with our trucks that we don't need to whine and complain about someone elses!!!! Edited November 3, 2005 by J4F

[BrewSwillis]

I am so glad you guys brought up a comparison between the Colorado and the Ridgeline.  I recently made this comparison myself by actually test driving the Colorado (among others).  The rear wheels wouldn't stop spinning on the pavement and the thing is small inside.  Those are just the most glaring deficiencies to me.  There is absolutely NO real comparison to the Colorado.

Here's some objectivity...I traded my Chevy Silverado 4x4 for the Ridgeline.  Ooooh, bad word?  I'm seeing more and more people like me out there in the real world.  I've already been off-road and on a long road trip in my new truck and it is AWESOME!  My old Chevy got 13 mpg, now I get 50% more!!  I'm happy with that.

BTW, 30,000 Ridgelines have been sold in 7 months, not 25k.  Ridgeline sales have been relatively steady as opposed to domestic truck & suv sales, which have been all over the map and barring another giveaway, are sure to continue to disappoint in the near future.  You can only wish this for Honda.

And, no, Ridgeline owners won't be mad at what you say here.  We're so happy with our trucks that we don't need to whine and complain about someone elses!!!!

[post="38298"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Here we go. :rolleyes: Thanks Evok! No offense to our newest member J4F.

[Flybrian]

Brewsills, calm down. Seriously. What Evok is doing is clearly different from what Polish_Kris did. I saw no "goofballs," "fools," or other derogatory words in his post. I saw no call for Ridgeline owners to 'bomb' C&G with "OUR RIDGELINE ROCKS UR CHEVYS SUCK!!!1111" comments. Simply, he's asking for an owner's opinion whose result would be to bolster/refute his argument. I see nothing wrong with his post.

I and the other Mods appreciate your passion for domestic vehicles and support for the site, but we don't need forum deputies seeking out every comment made about GM or C&G made on another site. And if Ridgeline owners choose to respond to this thread, they're more than welcome to as long as they abide by the same rules and general respect we're all expected to have - civil tones and no GM bashing. Very simple.

Please don't throw fuel and a match when there was no fire to begin with. Evok is offering up his opinions as you are yours. If you agree, fine. If not, also fine. I don't necessarily agree with his assessments and predictions, but that's my right as it is his to post them.

That last paragraph goes out to everyone. Dial it back, guys, and let all who respectfully share their thoughts be able to share them. You wouldn't appreciate it if you were treated differently.

Thanks.

[mystik]

Ridgelines competition is the HHR and Solstice. Not the Colorado. Not the Avalanche. Why? The Avalanche has already established itself as an option for people considering the following: Silverado, Sierra, Escalade The Ridgeline is not an option for those considering a Titan, Tundra or Tacoma. It's a car with a bed. You can not get around that. It's a niche vehicle like the HHR and Solstice are. Its innovative? Slap an H on it and yes, its innovative. Just like the Prius was innovative. Was the Avalanche innovative? No. It was a crap load of plastic, wasted too much gas, didnt have a diesel, etc etc. So this new "Truck" from Honda comes out, and the magazine editors and Honda lovers think that it's an "option" to real trucks? Its as ugly as an Aztek. It's a niche vehicle that will not sell. Go look at Titan sales. Magazines helped it sell for the first 4 months of it in the states, and since then? Its flattened. And this is from an actual formidable threat to the big 3's trucks. But thats besides the point; does anyone here actually think the sales of this thing, in its FIRST YEAR of production, will actually rise? No. If I wanted an import truck, I'd get a Tacoma. Not this thing. Seeing people convince themselves that this thing is a success is like Baja owners doing the same thing.

[BrewSwillis]

Simply, he's asking for an owner's opinion whose result would be to bolster/refute his argument. I see nothing wrong with his post.

[post="38304"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, his opinion collecting could have been done just as effectively, if not more effetively, without first linking to a thread on our site that about 50-60% made fun of the Ridgeline.

I don't like Japanese cars......but I don't join Japanese car forums and ask the people there what they think of GM......and then post the link on here.

Hey, it's your call though.

[siegen]

Back to the mileage debate quickly. I drive an 04 GMC Sierra (base model) every week for work (usually freeway driving). It gets about 20mpg, which is very good. However, it has 2wd, a tape player, manual windows, and that's about it (it has freeway gearing as well). You can't compare a truck like that to the Ridgeline, which has all of these features.

[Gkolo]

My family and my husband's family have alway bought GM vehicles. After a bad expierence with a Montana, I started looking at Honda. I bought a CR-V earlier this year and my husband snickered at my "Jap Car". When it was time for him to trade in his Blazer, he looked at the Avalanche (nice ride, but less than perfect safety ratings and no available side curtain airbags), Tundra (way too big for our needs), Tacoma (very "jumpy" ride") and briefly at the Colorado (we needed more passenger space). He didn't need the traditional full size truck. He owns a hardware store and delivers salt to our customers. He never goes off road or tows. Since this was to be our primary family vehicle, we wanted lots of passenger space and most importantly, we wanted something safe. The Ridgeline fit our needs perfectly. We are getting about 23 mpg (no towing and no a/c at this time of year). My only complaint is that the steering wheel sits too close to the dash for my taste. We used the "trunk" constantly and the duel action tailgate is really nice. I didn't like the looks of the truck at first, but they have grown on me. This is certainly not a truck for everybody, but I'm glad it was an option when it was time for us to buy a new vehicle.

[carman21]

I'll laugh if Saturn builds a Lambda Pick-up and sells 100k in its first year. :) The truck is good but, its ugly.Unibody pick-ups are the future but, I don't think a non-truck company should start something like this,may be Toyota or Nissan or even a domestic. Not Honda, Hyundai,or even VW should bother with pick-ups until there are a proven marketable technology. Kudos to Honda for trying to build an innovative light-truck. Unfortunately, they styled it for the Japanese market. I think in 5 years unibody light pick-ups will become fairly common. Not now and not the Ridgeline. Some interesting points the Ridgeline is said to tow 5,000lbs, and carry 1,800lbs. That is pretty standard for light pick-ups on the market. I don't expect an attempt at a unibody full-size pick-up for at least 10-15 years and HD unibody pick-ups won't exist period. I'd really like to see how well the Ridgeline handles offroad compared to the competition. I doubt it can do much better than the Odyssey offroad, Pretty crappy.

[Sixty8panther]

Lets see what Ridgline owners have to say:

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/...38233#post38233

[post="38287"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I know Aztek owners who say their mini-crossover-van version of the Ford Edsel is the coolest adn most appealing vehicle they'ev ever had... still does not mean the truck should have hit the market from a marketing and economic standpoint.

(not trying to pick on the Aztek so much as to draw an analogy)

[Lingered_I]

Why not let Honda tell you who they think the competition is, instead of saying the Avalanche all the time? I'm a Ridgeline owner, lured by evok, and have no opinion about the Big 3 trucks other than knowing I didn't want or need a "regular" truck. My criteria was simple - car like ride and handling, room for 5 people and practical enough to deal with yard waste from the 1 acre of wooded land around my house. I traded a Range Rover P38 (9/16mpg) so am pretty pleased with the 16/21 target for the Ridgeline - mines been averaging 17.

Now, why can't we all just get along? If you look at the Ridgeline thread created by evok, you'll see that his questions have been seriously answered with no one resorting to bickering or "ours is better than yours". Different steeds for different needs. Edited November 4, 2005 by Lingered_I

[regfootball]

I know Aztek owners who say their mini-crossover-van version of the Ford Edsel is the coolest adn most appealing vehicle they'ev ever had... still does not mean the truck should have hit the market from a marketing and economic standpoint.

(not trying to pick on the Aztek so much as to draw an analogy)

[post="38380"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

damn, if there had been no Aztek to buy what would I have bought? It is actually the most appealing thing we've owned, looks and mediocre engine aside.

Ridgeline owners, my buddy gets 15mpg in his brand new Pilot. You're gonna have to try awfully hard to convince me you're getting 23mpg with that overtaxed torqueless VTEC thingamajiggy under the hood. And I've read enough owner reviews on Edmunds and other web sites of your uglee truck to know that my buddy's 15 mpg is not that far from the norm for that thing.

Somebody with chopping skills, I could send you a photo of my Aztek, you can chop it into a an Aztek pickup to compete with the Ridgeline. Edited November 4, 2005 by regfootball

[Northstar]

I would say the Ridgeline is really just a X-Over with a bed. I don't much care for it, but if GM could come up with something for GMC off of Lambda (and beef it up) then I'd be for it. EDIT: I should mention that the people across the street bought a Ridgeline probably 6 months ago (right after they came out) and seem to buy lots of Hondas. They've only lived there for probably 4 years but have had a Civic, CR-V, Accord, and Ridgeline in addition to a Tacoma, Land Rover Disco, and Celica. Currently they have the Accord, Ridgeline, and Tacoma, but I've never seen them do anything truck-like with either of the two "trucks". I think some people just buy them for image a la big SUVs. In the case of my neighbors though, I think they did buy it simply because it's a Honda considering their past record of vehicles. Dismissing the Ridgeline is not a good idea because it appeals to those who need light-duty truck work but don't enjoy driving something BOF (I would fall under this category if I needed a truck). I would say the vast majority of truck owners DON'T use thier trucks in excess of what the Ridgeline is rated to do, so it could be an alternative when it comes time to buy next.

[pow]

Personally, I think Honda over-engineered the Ridgeline. They should have just thrown a bed onto an Odyssey, which would have yielded better fuel economy and enough toughness for prospective buyers. The Ridgeline's fully-boxed ladder frame + unibody cabin is unrelated to the Ody or Pilot.

[cmattson]

I guess the key to success is setting the bar low enough!

The Chevy Venture Minivan sold 66,522 units LY but is widely viewed as a flop in a market where DCX, Honda, and Toyota sell 5 times that.

But, now consider the Ridgeline. If it's lucky, it'll be on pace to hit 60k units in it's first 12 month of sales (and will have had the benefit of pent-up demand as Honda has never previously made a pickup truck). Yet, in a 3+ million-unit market, the volume of 60k is considered a success. Go figure.

Now, before you start in with how the Ridgeline is a "innovation", being that it has never-seen-before-car-like handling (ahem, bs: Ranchero, El Camino), a dual-hinged tailgate (ahem, more bs), and a trunk in the bed, ask yourself this: are those "innovations" enough to overcome it's numerous shortcomings (lackluster towing capabilities, mediocre gas mileage, and a damn-near unusable bed)? Now consider what a pickup truck has historically represented: utility. The ability to tow/haul large and/or unusually shaped objects. Historically, those have been the criteria for owning a pickup. This trucks shortcommings fall squarely in the area of utility--the be all/end all of owning a pickup. It's a truck pretender in a pickup truck market. A truck for people who don't need trucks.

While I can see your argument that the Ridgeline is a success, I guess we'll disagree on what defines success. I set my bar a bit higher than 60k in a market of 3+ million.

[The O.C.]

Well, his opinion collecting could have been done just as effectively, if not more effetively, without first linking to a thread on our site that about 50-60% made fun of the Ridgeline.

I don't like Japanese cars......but I don't join Japanese car forums and ask the people there what they think of GM......and then post the link on here.

Hey, it's your call though.

[post="38324"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Jeezus BrewSwillis, if you are THAT embarrassed about your comments on this site that you don't want others to read them, then what does that say about your posts on here?

Maybe that many on C&G are ACTUALLY the ones that are unfavorably dissing OTHER manufacturers? Ya think?

Personally, I think Evok's idea was pure GENIUS and it shows some really solid reasons as to why those owners purchased the Ridgeline. It adds a real sense of reality to this post.

Too many people on here follow the mantra of "Blind Loyalty" to GM that I saw all too often when I worked there......the constant unrealistic bashing of Toyota/Ridgeline/Honda, etc., adds a childish tone to this whole site that I don't think the site, or the posters on here deserve.....JMHO.

You can be a GM fan and still have a more open mind about the automotive market and about GM's competitors.

BUT, like Evok said, everyone is allowed to post their opinions as long as they follow the basic C&G guidelines.....so I may be ranting here, but I still wouldn't try to actually stop people from posting their opinions....

[The O.C.]

I guess the key to success is setting the bar low enough!

The Chevy Venture Minivan sold 66,522 units LY but is widely viewed as a flop in a market where DCX, Honda, and Toyota sell 5 times that.

But, now consider the Ridgeline. If it's lucky, it'll be on pace to hit 60k units in it's first 12 month of sales (and will have had the benefit of pent-up demand as Honda has never previously made a pickup truck).  Yet, in a 3+ million-unit market, the volume of 60k is considered a success.  Go figure.

Now, before you start in with how the Ridgeline is a "innovation", being that it has never-seen-before-car-like handling (ahem, bs: Ranchero, El Camino), a dual-hinged tailgate (ahem, more bs), and a trunk in the bed, ask yourself this:  are those "innovations" enough to overcome it's numerous shortcomings (lackluster towing capabilities, mediocre gas mileage, and a damn-near unusable bed)?  Now consider what a pickup truck has historically represented: utility.  The ability to tow/haul large and/or unusually shaped objects.  Historically, those have been the criteria for owning a pickup.  This trucks shortcommings fall squarely in the area of utility--the be all/end all of owning a pickup.  It's a truck pretender in a pickup truck market.  A truck for people who don't need trucks.

While I can see your argument that the Ridgeline is a success, I guess we'll disagree on what defines success.  I set my bar a bit higher than 60k in a market of 3+ million.

[post="38527"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Evok's point is......GM's got their minivan plant tooled to do $200K some-odd minivans....

Honda only PLANNED to build upwards to 60-70K units......Odyssey, Pilot, and MDX fill out the rest of that plant's capacity.

THAT's why it's considered more of a success.....Ridgeline is selling far closer to the forecast that Honda originally developed for the truck.

[cmattson]

GM Sales Jan-Oct '05;
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet...n=3&docid=20121

Hmm.. Uplander 63,348 + Terraza 17,615 + Relay 14,042 + Montana 22,799 =
total minivan sales of 117,804 over 10 months. Annualize and it's 141,137. If GM's goal was 200k units, it's about 71% of GM's target.

As per the article, Honda's target was 50k units.. and they've sold 25,787. Contrary to what the article states, the Ridgeline posted sales in Feb -- not Mar.. so the Ridgeline has been on sale officially for a little more than 8 months. If you annualize that, you'll find that the Ridgeline would have sales of 38,680 roughly 77% of it's target... not much better, IMO -- especially when you consider:

1) The first full month of sales for the Ridgeline was 4008 units -- a far cry from the 3223 monthly avg the Ridgeline is currently showing (that's a 20% drop). This leads credence to the idea that the Ridgeline initially benefited from Honda loyalists who were waiting for the truck. GM's minivans had no such advantage.

2) The Honda Ridgeline has "marketing support" of $1000 right now -- something that wasn't available a couple of months ago.

I'll disagree once again. In my book, when you are decreasing production, increasing incentives and still falling short of your low-ball goal by 20% - you are hardly enjoying success. I know that it increases plant efficiency for Honda - but plant efficiency is only ONE expense in a vehicles production. How about engineering costs? Extra tooling costs? Marketing expenses?

[evok]

Lets be fair to the Ridgline and say it is too early to tell what the segment is going to do and if or when it will recover. The whole truck segment is currently emploding. All of GM's SUV's were down 50%, Explorer was down 2/3. There is an over all decline in the segment. Is this a blip on the charts or sustained market shift? Of course the Ridgline will be affected. Will it be catastrophic. Early indications are it may not be. But lets look again at what it did for October. Sales were up. Sustainable, probably not given the larger market. So Honda has stated they will align production with demand. This whole thread has been stupid, petty and childish and lead by narrow, biased view of the market. All of these "it is not a truck" biased opinion were said as the CRV's, RAV 4 were entering the market 10 years ago. You know what, that is where the market is heading. The Japanese were ahead of the curve then and they still are. The Ridgline is another case of Honda creating and filling a new niche in the market. Big deal Honda put 1000 bucks on the Ridgline. How much was GM and Ford putting on all of their vehicles. What about their engineering, marketing costs? Give me a break. In todays market, for a vehicle priced at $30,000 selling 40 - 60k is great volume. And they are hitting their target. Honda Oct sales were just about even last month. That can not be said about GM and F. Edited November 4, 2005 by evok

[BrewSwillis]

Jeezus BrewSwillis, if you are THAT embarrassed about your comments on this site that you don't want others to read them, then what does that say about your posts on here?

Maybe that many on C&G are ACTUALLY the ones that are unfavorably dissing OTHER manufacturers?  Ya think?

Personally, I think Evok's idea was pure GENIUS and it shows some really solid reasons as to why those owners purchased the Ridgeline.  It adds a real sense of reality to this post.

Too many people on here follow the mantra of "Blind Loyalty" to GM that I saw all too often when I worked there......the constant unrealistic bashing of Toyota/Ridgeline/Honda, etc., adds a childish tone to this whole site that I don't think the site, or the posters on here deserve.....JMHO.

You can be a GM fan and still have a more open mind about the automotive market and about GM's competitors.

BUT, like Evok said, everyone is allowed to post their opinions as long as they follow the basic C&G guidelines.....so I may be ranting here, but I still wouldn't try to actually stop people from posting their opinions....

[post="38552"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm not embarrassed in the least bit. What I do think is childish, is to join a forum just to tell an owners fan club that people are making fun of your car, so go join their fan club about GM to defend yourselves.....and in the process keep adding to all the anti GM postings (on a GM fan board) about why you drive a Honda now.

So you are O.C.? Orange County, California? You live in a completely different automotive universe than I do in Detroit/Toledo. In this area of the country we have a different view of Japanese cars. Maybe Japanese vehicles are better?, but they sure don't seem that much better, that we have to put so many Americans out of work buying them. It will catch up to the rest of the country when the Big 3 shed large amounts of their well paid workforce. They are the people that are spending money buying all of the non-automotive American industry's crap.

[97regalGS]

They are the people that are spending money buying all of the non-automotive American industry's crap.

[post="38590"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

specifically what American made crap are u talking about? most of the crap gets made elsewhere and shipped back to the united states. go check you tv, vcr, cell phone, toaster etc and let me know how much of it is made in the good ole USA.

[regfootball]

I guess the key to success is setting the bar low enough!

The Chevy Venture Minivan sold 66,522 units LY but is widely viewed as a flop in a market where DCX, Honda, and Toyota sell 5 times that.

But, now consider the Ridgeline. If it's lucky, it'll be on pace to hit 60k units in it's first 12 month of sales (and will have had the benefit of pent-up demand as Honda has never previously made a pickup truck).  Yet, in a 3+ million-unit market, the volume of 60k is considered a success.  Go figure.

Now, before you start in with how the Ridgeline is a "innovation", being that it has never-seen-before-car-like handling (ahem, bs: Ranchero, El Camino), a dual-hinged tailgate (ahem, more bs), and a trunk in the bed, ask yourself this:  are those "innovations" enough to overcome it's numerous shortcomings (lackluster towing capabilities, mediocre gas mileage, and a damn-near unusable bed)?  Now consider what a pickup truck has historically represented: utility.  The ability to tow/haul large and/or unusually shaped objects.  Historically, those have been the criteria for owning a pickup.  This trucks shortcommings fall squarely in the area of utility--the be all/end all of owning a pickup.  It's a truck pretender in a pickup truck market.  A truck for people who don't need trucks.

While I can see your argument that the Ridgeline is a success, I guess we'll disagree on what defines success.  I set my bar a bit higher than 60k in a market of 3+ million.

[post="38527"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

exactly. domestics get ripped in the press if they can't push 100,000 units of something, but Honda plops a turd on the asphalt and sells 50-60k and they achieve greatness and are excused by having to scale back production.

[regfootball]

we all know the Ridgeline's main purpose was to carry Honda dirt bikes. It was developed as the perfect Honda accessory for the punks who need to tote their CR's.........they made it offroadable enough to drive around the pits during the race. Edited November 4, 2005 by regfootball

[BrewSwillis]

specifically what American made crap are u talking about?  most of the crap gets made elsewhere and shipped back to the united states.  go check you tv, vcr, cell phone, toaster etc and let me know how much of it is made in the good ole USA.

[post="38604"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I was talking about the only other stuff America has left to sell. Boats, Harleys, music and movies.....HEALTHCARE......Sirius and XM radio, Diret TV, stocks, expensive retstaruants....you know, stuff people living at the poverty level can't afford. Delphi plans on going from $20-something an hour to $9.00/hour. You don't think further moves like this are going to affect the nation's economy?

Well, at least we won't have to pay an extra $1200 per car from the UAW anymore. That will make up for it. :AH-HA_wink:

[The O.C.]

I'm not embarrassed in the least bit.  What I do think is childish, is to join a forum just to tell an owners fan club that people are making fun of your car, so go join their fan club about GM to defend yourselves.....and in the process keep adding to all the anti GM postings (on a GM fan board) about why you drive a Honda now.

So you are O.C.? Orange County, California?  You live in a completely different automotive universe than I do in Detroit/Toledo.  In this area of the country we have a different view of Japanese cars.  Maybe Japanese vehicles are better?, but they sure don't seem that much better, that we have to put so many Americans out of work buying them.  It will catch up to the rest of the country when the Big 3 shed large amounts of their well paid workforce.  They are the people that are spending money buying all of the non-automotive American industry's crap.

[post="38590"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You're right...! I AM in southern California.

(I also lived in Flint and Detroit for 7 years, grew up in Oklahoma and Texas, and lived in Philadelphia for 2 years so California is not my only sense of perspective on the auto industry.)

I know this is gonna cause a stir-up again, but people seem to think that the midwest is an accurate representation of the country. Well, let me tell you, if you go by population, number of cars and trucks sold, and where business and industry is growing and prospering, the midwest is not really an accurate representation of this country's auto buying tastes STATISTICALLY (key word here.)

When talking cars, the west coast (especially California) and the east coast are driving automotive buying trends. AND, places like urban centers in Arizona, Colorado, Texas, Georgia, Florida, and the rest of the south are quickly following in the coasts' footsteps.

You REALLY have to spend time and live in an area that is NOT dominated by the domestic auto industry to see what people really choose to drive when employee, retiree, supplier discounts, and employer loyalty are taken OUT of the picture. AND, also open your eyes to exactly WHY those consumers have such loyalty or perception of import autos versus the majority of domestics.

Yes....I enjoy living in California....and yes I'm a big L.A. and Orange County fan....BUT, here's some factual statistics I've thrown about before......southern California is the #1 largest automotive market in the country...even out-retailing the NY/NJ/CT tri-state area.

California is the 5th largest economy in the WORLD.

In the greater L.A./Orange County/Inland Empire metro area (NOT including San Diego) there is a population of over 17 million people in a built-up urban area that extends well over 100 miles north-to-south and east-to-west. That's more people than the STATES of Michigan and Indiana combined....

The #1 and #2 volume Ferrari dealerships in the WORLD are in Beverly Hills and Costa Mesa/Orange County.

The #1 Lamborghini distributor is in Santa Ana/Orange County.

The #1 and #2 volume Mercedes-Benz (Newport Beach and Laguna Niguel) and BMW (Santa Ana and Irvine) dealerships are in Orange County.

You may have visited California before....been here a few days or a week, or maybe gone to Disneyland or the beach....but you really have to LIVE here for awhile to get a true understanding of why this automotive market is so interesting and so relevent to the rest of the country.

Does this all make California "better" than the rest of the country? NO, of course not.....not everyone can live here or likes living here. But that's not my point. My point is that I really wasn't able to see the whole auto industry picture until I moved out here and lived with it (now going on 9 years.)

Sorry for off-topic, but I really wanted to respond to BrewSwillis' comment about CA being a "totally different automotive universe."

[I hope GMRULES again]

GM Sales Jan-Oct '05;
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet...n=3&docid=20121

Hmm.. Uplander 63,348 + Terraza 17,615 + Relay 14,042 + Montana 22,799 =
total minivan sales of 117,804 over 10 months.  Annualize and it's 141,137.  If GM's goal was 200k units, it's about 71% of GM's target.

As per the article, Honda's target was 50k units.. and they've sold 25,787. Contrary to what the article states, the Ridgeline posted sales in Feb -- not Mar.. so the Ridgeline has been on sale officially for a little more than 8 months.  If you annualize that, you'll find that the Ridgeline would have sales of 38,680 roughly 77% of it's target... not much better, IMO -- especially when you consider:

1) The first full month of sales for the Ridgeline was 4008 units -- a far cry from the 3223 monthly avg the Ridgeline is currently showing (that's a 20% drop).  This leads credence to the idea that the Ridgeline initially benefited from Honda loyalists who were waiting for the truck.  GM's minivans had no such advantage.

2) The Honda Ridgeline has "marketing support" of $1000 right now -- something that wasn't available a couple of months ago.

I'll disagree once again.  In my book, when you are decreasing production, increasing incentives and still falling short of your low-ball goal by 20% - you are hardly enjoying success.  I know that it increases plant efficiency for Honda - but plant efficiency is only ONE expense in a vehicles production.  How about engineering costs?  Extra tooling costs?  Marketing expenses?

[post="38568"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You sure did some solid research to make your point. Plus those Minivan #s do not include the roughly 40k sales the CSVs will have in Canada this year which would bring the total production up to 180k for the year.

[BrewSwillis]

Does this all make California "better" than the rest of the country?  NO, of course not.....not everyone can live here or likes living here.  But that's not my point.  My point is that I really wasn't able to see the whole auto industry picture until I moved out here and lived with it (now going on 9 years.)

Sorry for off-topic, but I really wanted to respond to BrewSwillis' comment about CA being a "totally different automotive universe."

[post="38717"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Where do people work in California? Do they manufacture anything? I'm just having a hard time figuring out what everyone in this country is going to do when we no longer manufacure anything in the US......well except fot the Japanese 3's cars at $9.00/hour after the UAW folds.

I do believe that people in California think they are better than everybody else, as with most of the people in all the other BLUE states(except the others states might not be as superficial). I know that the Midwest is becoming more and more alone in prefering American vehicles, and that's why I said you and I were in different "automobile universes". Blue state people seem to really be worried about image, and fitting in....therefore if you neighbor drives an import, and a magazine tells you to buy an import.....well then, you better get an import, or people will wonder what's wrong with you.

You know who mostly drives imports in the Midwest? Foriegners, and people who are strong democrats. The foreign engineers at every place I've worked at seem to prefer Imports, and so do the people who hate Bush. The funny part is, is that democrats should be supporting the UAW, but mostly Blue states are buying Japanese cars. Democrats must be smarter though, just ask them.

As long as Chrysler survives, I'll still be happy. I'll probably be working for an automotive supplier who only supplys the Japanese 3 (probably at a reduced wage [no Big 3 for competition]), but if I can drive my Chrysler (DaimlerHondaChrysler?), I'll be happy.

So, back to the Ridgeline. I see them coming off of trains everyday in Toledo, and have not seen one on the road here yet.

[Flybrian]

Allright, let's not start the Second Civil War here. Ridgeline discussion, anyone?

[thegriffon]

46,000 employers in manufacturing of which there are more with no employees than there are with more then 500. However there are also nearly 40,000 "manufacturing" companies that are non-employers. Some will be small family businesses, but many aren't, so "manufacturing" may be a very loose concept, with actual assembly done by other firms in other states or even countries. Not much is actually "made" in Silicon Valley anymore, and manufacturing in general has been leaving California for many years due to a wide variety of higher costs - not only wages, but land and taxes etc.

[mr.nice]

Allright, let's not start the Second Civil War here.

Ridgeline discussion, anyone?

[post="38763"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Just a general comment.
When a Ridgeline can't carry a Honda ATV, or, many Honda motor bikes in the bed, they shouldn't be (as it was at the local auto show in March) be attempting to put them in the back, with the back two wheels on the flattened tailgate.

To be honest, the bed, like like the Explorer Sport Trak, are relatively useless for those who need a pickup for carrying items longer then 5 feet.

So who buys them? Seriously?

I've had my Avalanche now for 2 years, its my first truck, as I was never a truck guy, and every time I think I don't need the 6-8ft capabilty and I have too much truck, I need that large area....and/or the fact that the load is secure and/or in the cab overnight, even better.

I couldn't imagine having a smaller box if I have a truck. Edited November 5, 2005 by mr.nice

[pow]

Where do people work in California?  Do they manufacture anything?  I'm just having a hard time figuring out what everyone in this country is going to do when we no longer manufacure anything in the US......well except fot the Japanese 3's cars at $9.00/hour after the UAW folds.

I do believe that people in California think they are better than everybody else, as with most of the people in all the other BLUE states(except the others states might not be as superficial).  I know that the Midwest is becoming more and more alone in prefering American vehicles, and that's why I said you and I were in different "automobile universes".  Blue state people seem to really be worried about image, and fitting in....therefore if you neighbor drives an import, and a magazine tells you to buy an import.....well then, you better get an import, or people will wonder what's wrong with you. 

You know who mostly drives imports in the Midwest?  Foriegners, and people who are strong democrats.  The foreign engineers at every place I've worked at seem to prefer Imports, and so do the people who hate Bush.  The funny part is, is that democrats should be supporting the UAW, but mostly Blue states are buying Japanese cars.  Democrats must be smarter though, just ask them.

As long as Chrysler survives, I'll still be happy.  I'll probably be working for an automotive supplier who only supplys the Japanese 3 (probably at a reduced wage [no Big 3 for competition]), but if I can drive my Chrysler (DaimlerHondaChrysler?), I'll be happy.

So, back to the Ridgeline.  I see them coming off of trains everyday in Toledo, and have not seen one on the road here yet.

[post="38742"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Funny... last time I checked, Michigan is a "BLUE state".

[CaddyXLR-V]

You're right...!  I AM in southern California. 

(I also lived in Flint and Detroit for 7 years, grew up in Oklahoma and Texas, and lived in Philadelphia for 2 years so California is not my only sense of perspective on the auto industry.)

I know this is gonna cause a stir-up again, but people seem to think that the midwest is an accurate representation of the country.  Well, let me tell you, if you go by population, number of cars and trucks sold, and where business and industry is growing and prospering, the midwest is not really an accurate representation of this country's auto buying tastes STATISTICALLY (key word here.)

When talking cars, the west coast (especially California) and the east coast are driving automotive buying trends.  AND, places like urban centers in Arizona, Colorado, Texas, Georgia, Florida, and the rest of the south are quickly following in the coasts' footsteps.

You REALLY have to spend time and live in an area that is NOT dominated by the domestic auto industry to see what people really choose to drive when employee, retiree, supplier discounts, and employer loyalty are taken OUT of the picture.  AND, also open your eyes to exactly WHY those consumers have such loyalty or perception of import autos versus the majority of domestics.

Yes....I enjoy living in California....and yes I'm a big L.A. and Orange County fan....BUT, here's some factual statistics I've thrown about before......southern California is the #1 largest automotive market in the country...even out-retailing the NY/NJ/CT tri-state area. 

California is the 5th largest economy in the WORLD.

In the greater L.A./Orange County/Inland Empire metro area (NOT including San Diego) there is a population of over 17 million people in a built-up urban area that extends well over 100 miles north-to-south and east-to-west.  That's more people than the STATES of Michigan and Indiana combined....

The #1 and #2 volume Ferrari dealerships in the WORLD are in Beverly Hills and Costa Mesa/Orange County.

The #1 Lamborghini distributor is in Santa Ana/Orange County.

The #1 and #2 volume Mercedes-Benz (Newport Beach and Laguna Niguel) and BMW (Santa Ana and Irvine) dealerships are in Orange County.

You may have visited California before....been here a few days or a week, or maybe gone to Disneyland or the beach....but you really have to LIVE here for awhile to get a true understanding of why this automotive market is so interesting and so relevent to the rest of the country.

Does this all make California "better" than the rest of the country?  NO, of course not.....not everyone can live here or likes living here.  But that's not my point.  My point is that I really wasn't able to see the whole auto industry picture until I moved out here and lived with it (now going on 9 years.)

Sorry for off-topic, but I really wanted to respond to BrewSwillis' comment about CA being a "totally different automotive universe."

[post="38717"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I beleive all of that. I think if GM is ever going to get marketshare back, they are going to need to start with CA. Thats where they have the lowest share and, its a huge market and growing. That leaves the most room for opportunity. If GM can fix its image in CA, the rest of the country will follow.

[BrewSwillis]

Funny... last time I checked, Michigan is a "BLUE state".

[post="38786"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Barely. And it's because of the UAW.....which the rest of the democrats in the US do not support. I live in Toledo now.....in the Red swing state(which also has a large UAW population).

I know it's not PC to stereotype and generalize, but is really a coincidence that the "blue" states are the ones buying the foreign cars??

[The O.C.]

Where do people work in California?  Do they manufacture anything?  I'm just having a hard time figuring out what everyone in this country is going to do when we no longer manufacure anything in the US......well except fot the Japanese 3's cars at $9.00/hour after the UAW folds.

I do believe that people in California think they are better than everybody else, as with most of the people in all the other BLUE states(except the others states might not be as superficial).  I know that the Midwest is becoming more and more alone in prefering American vehicles, and that's why I said you and I were in different "automobile universes".  Blue state people seem to really be worried about image, and fitting in....therefore if you neighbor drives an import, and a magazine tells you to buy an import.....well then, you better get an import, or people will wonder what's wrong with you. 

You know who mostly drives imports in the Midwest?  Foriegners, and people who are strong democrats.  The foreign engineers at every place I've worked at seem to prefer Imports, and so do the people who hate Bush.  The funny part is, is that democrats should be supporting the UAW, but mostly Blue states are buying Japanese cars.  Democrats must be smarter though, just ask them.

As long as Chrysler survives, I'll still be happy.  I'll probably be working for an automotive supplier who only supplys the Japanese 3 (probably at a reduced wage [no Big 3 for competition]), but if I can drive my Chrysler (DaimlerHondaChrysler?), I'll be happy.

So, back to the Ridgeline.  I see them coming off of trains everyday in Toledo, and have not seen one on the road here yet.

[post="38742"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

"Blue" state? That's HARDLY representative of California. Maybe the majority of the population statistically voted democratic, but that doesn't changethe fact that 70% of Orange County (where I live) is republican....and that the majority of the Central Valley cities (Sacramento, Fresno, Bakersfield, etc.) are primarily republican...and there are NUMEROUS republican strongholds within primarily-democratic Los Angeles County.

Even in the Bay Area, REALLY-democratic San Francisco and Oakland are bordered by republican-led San Jose and the East Bay cities in Contra Costa County.

"Red" Orange County is where the high-end imports tend to do best....

You can't really relate anything realistically to whether a state is a "blue" state or a "red" state. Edited November 5, 2005 by The O.C.

[ehaase]

The Ridgeline is not my cup of tea, but it is probably doing what Honda wants it to do. Edited November 5, 2005 by ehaase

[Cory Wolfe]

Wow... It is like a war in here...

Anywho... My biggest problem with the Ridgeline is it's styling inside and out. If it weren't ugly as hell, it'd be a pretty cool semi-innovative truck. Another problem I have with it is Honda's arrogance of it. Just watch its commercials and such... its blatantly obvious they think its perfect and super-innovative. Because its a Honda.

Some of you guys are missing the point, though. I keep hearing "Honda only expected it sell this many, it's pretty much meeting that" and such. Well, the fact is that Honda has cut production as if it expected to sell more in the first place. Ever think that maybe, just maybe, Honda set intentionally low expectations so they could recieve fabulous reviews about how it shattered them... since Honda is so arrogant and probably expected it to.... and now it's coming back and biting them in the ass. Did you guys ever even think about that? Seriously... if they only expected to sell as many as they have, they wouldn't have had to cut production... would they?

[evok]

Some of you guys are missing the point, though. I keep hearing "Honda only expected it sell this many, it's pretty much meeting that" and such. Well, the fact is that Honda has cut production as if it expected to sell more in the first place. Ever think that maybe, just maybe, Honda set intentionally low expectations so they could recieve fabulous reviews about how it shattered them... since Honda is so arrogant and probably expected it to.... and now it's coming back and biting them in the ass.

[post="38937"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

"Honda is taking 3,000 units out of its January-March production plan. The full-year target was 50,000"

People here read headlines, only.

[Cory Wolfe]

Well, I've made it clear before that unless it's posted, I don't read it (and in the case of spy pics; don't see them). C&G is about as much as my PC can handle... Most other sites that have ads-galore and a bunch of other crap to load just f**k it up beyond belief. Not to mention, links themselves f**k it up. So... I base what I say on what other people say. Usually I can gather the majority of what the article is about unless other people are talking BS. Sorry. So, if you guys would post the freakin' article, we wouldn't have this problem. Anyways, if that's all that is going to be cut... why was this article even posted in the first place? And what's with "Blames soft sales on lack of incentives"? That makes it look like they much more than that. Seems redundant to me, now... Whoever starting this thread; care to explain? <_< :rolleyes:

[evok]

Well, I've made it clear before that unless it's posted, I don't read it (and in the case of spy pics; don't see them). C&G is about as much as my PC can handle... Most other sites that have ads-galore and a bunch of other crap to load just f**k it up beyond belief. Not to mention, links themselves f**k it up. So... I base what I say on what other people say. Usually I can gather the majority of what the article is about unless other people are talking BS. Sorry.

So, if you guys would post the freakin' article, we wouldn't have this problem.

Anyways, if that's all that is going to be cut... why was this article even posted in the first place? And what's with "Blames soft sales on lack of incentives"? That makes it look like they much more than that. Seems redundant to me, now... Whoever starting this thread; care to explain?

<_< :rolleyes:

[post="38970"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So don't comment and sound ignorant if you will not even take the time read.

[Cory Wolfe]

So don't comment and sound ignorant if you will not even take the time read.

Why don't you buy my poor ass a new PC so I can.

[Variance]

The article: Honda slashes Ridgeline production plan, blames soft sales on lack of incentives JAMES B. TREECE | Automotive News Posted Date: 10/31/05 TOKYO -- With Ridgeline sales starting out slower than expected, Honda Motor Co. is cutting production of the new pickup. Honda is taking 3,000 units out of its January-March production plan. The full-year target was 50,000. Honda CFO Satoshi Aoki revealed the plans to cut production during a press conference announcing Honda's earnings for the quarter ended Sept. 30. The Ridgeline, Honda's first foray into the pickup segment, is built exclusively in Alliston, Ontario. The vehicle went on sale in March. Sales through September in the United States totaled 25,787. Honda built 17,402 Ridgelines in the third quarter. In an interview with Automotive News at the Tokyo Motor Show this month, Honda CEO Takeo Fukui blamed the soft sales on high U.S. incentives on light trucks. He said Honda would not join the incentive wars to jump-start Ridgeline sales. "We won't introduce any incentives," Fukui said. "We'll adjust our production." Honda executives said they hope to lower overall incentive spending in the United States. But they conceded that Honda's spending has grown more rapidly than expected. Hideki Okada, general manager of Honda's accounting division, said at the press conference that the carmaker hopes to trim U.S. incentive spending by about one-third in the October 2005-March 2006 fiscal second half compared with the previous six months. But Honda also raised its forecast for incentive spending for the full fiscal year ending March 31. It now expects to spend between $990 million and $1 billion on incentives this fiscal year. Last spring, Honda had projected incentive spending of $690 million. It then raised that forecast to $890 million in July. Aoki said the company's worldwide operating profit in the quarter fell on higher incentive spending in the United States. Honda's operating profits in the quarter declined 5.9 percent to 162.69 billion yen or about $1.44 billion at current exchange rates.

[The O.C.]

By the way, here is what people in California manufacture:
http://www.census.gov/epcd/susb/2001/ca/CA31.HTM

Took about 10 seconds on google to find that.

[post="38765"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

.....also, you don't have to manufacture products to have a powerful and vibrant economy.....

In fact, the states that are more vibrant economically right now are the ones OUTSIDE of the midwest "rustbelt"