GM's RWD Programs & Federal Loans

[cire]

I found this article on Motor Authority this morning. I don't know how much of it is based on fact or just speculating and wishful thinking.

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Source: Motor Authority

[cire]

Here's the link to the GM Inside News article that was referred to in the Motor Authority article:

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Source: GM Inside News

[Camino LS6]

Interesting, but suspect.

[z28luvr01]

I was always under the impression that RWD was axed for "fuel economy concerns" (not that there are any), and was not aware that work on Alpha had ever stopped. If they can end up doing all that on Alpha, even if it ends up costing a fair amount, it'll be made up given the volume of vehicles worldwide for the various brands that can come off of it.

Waitaminit - there I go being logical again....sorry. Only Caddy, Chevy, and Buick really need it. Screw everyone else.

[Camino LS6]

Not including Holden and Pontiac in any plans for Alpha would simply be moronic.

In fact, those two brands should be Alpha's core.

Buick is just about the silliest place to apply Alpha imaginable.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I found this article on Motor Authority this morning. I don't know how much of it is based on fact or just speculating and wishful thinking.

undefined

Source: Motor Authority

Do you really think that GM is going to use that money to further RWD hopes, when it needs that money to just run day to day operations? Come on get real!

[Robert Hall]

Do you really think that GM is going to use that money to further RWD hopes, when it needs that money to just run day to day operations? Come on get real!

They will just spend it on developing more boring FWD models for the mass market. Boring, but that is where the profit potential is.

[Sixty8panther]

They will just spend it on developing more boring FWD models for the mass market. Boring, but that is where the profit potential is.

Yeah.... cause 20 years of trying to build a better

Toyota/Honda has worked well thus far.

[Satty]

It may have if they had actually managed to build a better Honda/Toyota.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Not including Holden and Pontiac in any plans for Alpha would simply be moronic.

In fact, those two brands should be Alpha's core.

Buick is just about the silliest place to apply Alpha imaginable.

Well, that is typical GM logic...

"Umm, we need a lot of programs on this platform" and in the same breath; "Holden and Pontiac don't need RWD models."

I'm sure the Buick Riviera will be cool, but I doubt GM will have the focus and/or the $$$ to optimize sales of such a car. If money really is THAT much of a concern, then they should peddle the car as a Buick in China and put a new nose on it for Pontiac here.

I just don't see an affordable, performance minded Buick being able to sell here.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Do you really think that GM is going to use that money to further RWD hopes, when it needs that money to just run day to day operations? Come on get real!

Yes.

Because the govenrment mandates that it do so.

The loans weren't given to the automakers to "keep the business running"

[Robert Hall]

Well, that is typical GM logic...

"Umm, we need a lot of programs on this platform" and in the same breath; "Holden and Pontiac don't need RWD models."

I'm sure the Buick Riviera will be cool, but I doubt GM will have the focus and/or the $$$ to optimize sales of such a car. If money really is THAT much of a concern, then they should peddle the car as a Buick in China and put a new nose on it for Pontiac here.

I just don't see an affordable, performance minded Buick being able to sell here.

A problem with a RWD Riviera coupe is it would compete with the CTS coupe, at least in NA.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yes.

Because the govenrment mandates that it do so.

The loans weren't given to the automakers to "keep the business running"

Not quite, the loans were approved by the House as part of a larger spending bill, and are intended to help the industry refurbish decades-old plants (plants GM didn't have the money to refurbish, so yeah, it is day to day operations the money is going to be used for) and develop advanced batteries and gas-electric hybrids.

[Camino LS6]

They will just spend it on developing more boring FWD models for the mass market. Boring, but that is where the profit potential is.

:rotflmao:

Trying the same thing again and again expecting a different result.

[cire]

Not including Holden and Pontiac in any plans for Alpha would simply be moronic.

In fact, those two brands should be Alpha's core.

Buick is just about the silliest place to apply Alpha imaginable.

I agree with you for the most part. I would love to see an Alpha based RWD production version of the recent Riviera Concept as a low volume halo product for Buick (although a FWD Eps II based version would be fine also). Other than that, Buick should remain FWD.

If GM is really going to put that much development effort into Alpha (which I'm highly skeptical about; I'll believe it when I see it), then I do agree with you that Pontiac and Holden should receive the bulk of the affordable products. Unfortunately, it seems that GM does not see it that way.

[Sixty8panther]

A problem with a RWD Riviera coupe is it would compete with the CTS coupe, at least in NA.

Two RWD coupes from a company as big as GM is too much?

At one point we had the elDorado, Riviera, Toronado, Monte Carlo, Chevelle,

Impala, Bonneville, coupe deVille, 98 Regency, Cutlass Supreme Brougham,

LeMans, Skylark and a whole bunch of other "personal luxury coupes" from

GM and they were all damn successful & profitable!

[Satty]

And at one point cars had a top speed of 45mph and rode on wooden wheels.

[Robert Hall]

Two RWD coupes from a company as big as GM is too much?

At one point we had the elDorado, Riviera, Toronado, Monte Carlo, Chevelle,

Impala, Bonneville, coupe deVille, 98 Regency, Cutlass Supreme Brougham,

LeMans, Skylark and a whole bunch of other "personal luxury coupes" from

GM and they were all damn successful & profitable!

True..it's a different time and place, though... the coupe market is very small now, and it seems only the small and sporty, or muscle car type, or premium luxury brand models succeed.

[Sixty8panther]

And at one point cars had a top speed of 45mph and rode on wooden wheels.

And pussies rode bicycles or took the bus.

Some still do, but some drive Priu-asses.

[Satty]

And poor white trash drive whatever they can pick up for $300. Whats your point? Mine was that times change, technologies change, personal preferences change and markets change.

[Sixty8panther]

For someone who lives in a glass house... you sure do have a lot of rocks.

I may be an opinionated weirdo who likes to complain about modern society

but my piece of $hit Roadmaster does NOT make me white trash.

I would rather daily drive that POS & keep my B-59, which still needs a few

fixes before I drive it again, rather than have one boring car, that's neiter

white trashy or in any way related to the current automotive market.

[Satty]

Want to hear something funny? After driving the Prius, the LeSabre is almost unbearable. The Buick has no steering feel, a floaty, disconnected ride, and far less comfortable seats. It reminds me of how far the automotive world has come in 20 years. Even GM has come a long way, but not far enough, and thats why they're getting government loans.

[Sixty8panther]

We'll see how well the Prius drives down the road, if at all!? when it is 20 years old.

Most Toyotas are long crushed by then.

Even GM has come a long way, but not far enough, and thats why they're getting government loans.

Oh yes.... it has nothing to do with the fact that the Japanese are

favored by the media, GM's tremendous legacy costs, their refusal

to build American cars for American buyers, idiotic choices by

clueless management (killing Oldsmobile, starving Pontiac of product)

public ignorance/stupidity and anti-American sentiment from people

who enjoy seeing the destruction of this country.

[Robert Hall]

We'll see how well the Prius drives down the road, if at all!? when it is 20 years old.

Who cares? In 20 years time, the Prius (probably on it's 6th gen by then) will probably be completely electric, no gas engine, and hyperefficient... hopefully, the Volt will be as well..

[Sixty8panther]

Satty's argument: most 20 year old beat up Buicks stink.

My argument: Most 20-yer old Toyotas don't EXIST, except as

stripped shells sitting in junkyards awaiting crushing and the

eventual recycling process.... into more crappy modern cars.

[Oracle of Delphi]

We'll see how well the Prius drives down the road, if at all!? when it is 20 years old.

Most Toyotas are long crushed by then.

Oh yes.... it has nothing to do with the fact that the Japanese are

favored by the media, GM's tremendous legacy costs, their refusal

to build American cars for American buyers, idiotic choices by

clueless management (killing Oldsmobile, starving Pontiac of product)

public ignorance/stupidity and anti-American sentiment from people

who enjoy seeing the destruction of this country.

Oh and let's not forget witches casting spells on GM, oh and Voodoo Priestesses too!

[Blake Noble]

Again, am I on Cheers and Gears or watching As The World Turns?

I'd love to see the script you are all reading from because whoever is writing it can't come up with anything new to say. It's all the same old cliched plot and all the old cliched lines I've been hearing for months now. And we all wonder why the member base has dwindled down to 10 members and 2 admins.

[Satty]

Satty's argument: most 20 year old beat up Buicks stink.

My argument: Most 20-yer old Toyotas don't EXIST, except as

stripped shells sitting in junkyards awaiting crushing and the

eventual recycling process.... into more crappy modern cars.

A quick glance at eBay reveals a number of 20+ year old Toyotas that are, indeed, in one piece.

[thegriffon]

The money is specifically for high-mileage projects that significantly advance fuel economy over comparable vehicles. As such it represents a minimum budget US automakers and suppliers must spend on such projects, which will be provided by the government.

[thegriffon]

I was under the impression that Kappa had been canned for a unified "sports car" architecture—i.e. a smaller version of the Corvette and not merely a similar but unrelated platform.

In any case they can't spend the money on general expenses or standard product development. A minimum improvement in economy is required (25% IIRC)—improving the mileage of the new compact by 9 mpg would qualify (just), expanding dual-mode hybrids might qualify, Volt would qualify, HCCI might qualify, the 4.5 L diesel might qualify, improvements boosting a 32 mpg sedan to 40 mpg would qualify etc.. It is a real and potentially substantial boost to GM's capital budget, but only for certain types of project. Projects such as Ford's unibody, turbo Explorer replacement could certainly qualify, as could plans to switch the large GM trucks to a unibody platform, or building an Avalanche replacement off Lambda. Boosting mileage from 14/18 to 17.5/22.5 or from 15/21 to 18.8/26.3 may be all that is needed. Of course if Cummins, for example, spends the money to fund production of a more efficient diesel for light trucks, then there is no reason they can't sell it to Nissan as well as Chrysler.

[network engineer]

Again, am I on Cheers and Gears or watching As The World Turns?

I'd love to see the script you are all reading from because whoever is writing it can't come up with anything new to say. It's all the same old cliched plot and all the old cliched lines I've been hearing for months now. And we all wonder why the member base has dwindled down to 10 members and 2 admins.

I think it's a combination of that and the front page is no longer relevant. Blogs are what's big now. The forums are great, but if you look at the front page we have 7 updates in the last 7 1/2 weeks. It makes it look like nothings going on on the site, so I may as well not visit the forums. If you look at say GMI they have 5 stories in the last 2 1/2 weeks and autoblog has, well dozens and dozens. Both of those other sites also allow you to post comments directly to the story. C&G locks them. So when I look at GMIs artical on the $25B I see it has 108 replies and the C&G has 0 replies. It just makes it look like C&G has nothing going on.

We need new articles posted on the front page daily and to have the number of comments be displayed on the front page, or allow us to respond directly to that article. We may also want to consider making it look more like a blog. Also what happened to the other guys news that used to be on the front page. C&G is about GM and GM is part of the automotive industry. I want to get news about the whole American industry. I can go to other sites and get that.

Now about the loans program. I hope GM uses it to do additional development and doesn't just use it to replace $5B they would have spent on these projects anyway. Fuel efficiency is very much on the forefront of car shoppers today. A walk around my local Chevy dealer revealed nearly all of the vehicles they had were 4 cylinder models. They had Malibus, Cobalts and HHRs all up front. The Traverse, Equinox and Corvettes were all pushed to the back of the lot.

[Robert Hall]

I think it's a combination of that and the front page is no longer relevant. Blogs are what's big now. The forums are great, but if you look at the front page we have 7 updates in the last 7 1/2 weeks. It makes it look like nothings going on on the site, so I may as well not visit the forums. If you look at say GMI they have 5 stories in the last 2 1/2 weeks and autoblog has, well dozens and dozens. Both of those other sites also allow you to post comments directly to the story. C&G locks them. So when I look at GMIs artical on the $25B I see it has 108 replies and the C&G has 0 replies. It just makes it look like C&G has nothing going on.

\

Interesting...that could definitely be part of it.... I know with sites like Autoblog and others, I check my Google Reader RSS feeds a couple times a day for new posts. With this board, and message forums in general, I never go to the front page but always just click on 'view new posts' when I come in to see what has been posted since my last visit. I have auto-subscribe set as well, so I get emails for any postings on threads I've posted to...

Edited October 6, 2008 by moltar

[network engineer]

Interesting...that could definitely be part of it.... I know with sites like Autoblog and others, I check my Google Reader RSS feeds a couple times a day for new posts. With this board, and message forums in general, I never go to the front page but always just click on 'view new posts' when I come in..

I don't think most people do it that way. I think they hit the front page to see what's new. For a while I would visit the front page, not see any new news in the last week or two or three! and just think that nothing new had been posted. I'd then go over to GMI and autoblog where I would most likely find newer stories right on the front page. I also find that I sometimes post a comment in a thread and then can't remember what thread it was. On other forums I can go into the user CP and see what forums I've posted in recently, or what threads have replies after mine. A nice feature for getting me to revisit the thread and keep it alive. I'm pretty sure this forum could also do this.

I've been coming to and posting on C&G for the better part of a decade, but I post less and less, because it hasn't kept up with the times. If C&G wants to remain relevant we need to keep the front page hopping news, so that it gets into the search engines and let us reply directly to stories.

I'll bet many people are checking sites on their phones nowadays too. I pop websites up on my iPhone all the time. I love how, if I go to many of my favorite sites, they automatically load a mobile version. it's got a little ad at the top of every page, usually a top story with a photo, then about 10 text links of the latest news or whatever. Very handy. C&G on my iPhone is kind of a pain the ass, and on my last non apple phone it was completely unusable.

[turbo200]

I don't think most people do it that way. I think they hit the front page to see what's new. For a while I would visit the front page, not see any new news in the last week or two or three! and just think that nothing new had been posted. I'd then go over to GMI and autoblog where I would most likely find newer stories right on the front page. I also find that I sometimes post a comment in a thread and then can't remember what thread it was. On other forums I can go into the user CP and see what forums I've posted in recently, or what threads have replies after mine. A nice feature for getting me to revisit the thread and keep it alive. I'm pretty sure this forum could also do this.

I've been coming to and posting on C&G for the better part of a decade, but I post less and less, because it hasn't kept up with the times. If C&G wants to remain relevant we need to keep the front page hopping news, so that it gets into the search engines and let us reply directly to stories.

I'll bet many people are checking sites on their phones nowadays too. I pop websites up on my iPhone all the time. I love how, if I go to many of my favorite sites, they automatically load a mobile version. it's got a little ad at the top of every page, usually a top story with a photo, then about 10 text links of the latest news or whatever. Very handy. C&G on my iPhone is kind of a pain the ass, and on my last non apple phone it was completely unusable.

interesting ideas. i think it's obvious to many the front page has become outdated and needs to get with the times. It's time for a C&G revolution! How about more dedicated member access? Dedicated members posting updates to a blog like style on the front page, I guess similar to autoblog which has a more wide-ranging set of stories and scribes to take up the brunt of the work.

I don't usually go to other auto news sites simply because I don't have much time, and have proably an outmoded mindset towards GMI that it's a labyrinth. Some of the people here are still engaging, and that's really why I keep coming.

[Camino LS6]

It's simple really, no one has enough time to devote to the site at the moment. It will get better at some point, but right now it would be a tall order.

I agree that C&G needs a major updating, and I'm sure that isn't lost on the rest of the staff. I've been thinking some ideas over lately, but simply getting by has occupied most of my time.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think a lot of it has to do with GM in general.

Back when this site started, GM and being a GM fan was 'the cool thing'

But now that the company is failing, the government has destroyed fun cars and GM seems to be back to it's old ways... Well, it's almost not even worth being a GM/car enthusiast.

I hate to say it, but I think GM has lost a lot of supporters over the last 3-4 years.

[ehaase]

Back when this site started, GM and being a GM fan was 'the cool thing'

I believe this site started around 2000 or 2001, and GM wasn't "the cool thing" then, although most of us still had some hope.

[Blake Noble]

I hate to say it, but I think GM has lost a lot of supporters over the last 3-4 years.

And I really hate to say this, but GM probably could care less.

[Satty]

Yeah, the billions (hundreds of by now?) of dollars they have lost hurt a lot more.

[z28luvr01]

Sometimes it feels like the industry is moving such that in 5-10 years getting a new car will be on par with buying a new stove or refrigerator. All the emotion and fun associated with owning and driving car will be engineered out. I'd really like to say that "This is America and we'll innovate our way out of this", but the fact is that GM (and most other car companies) are thinking globally and could care less about local markets. So what we're going to get is a one-size-fits-all car in every segment that'll do their jobs extremely well, but ultimately will have little emotional/cultural appeal.

*sigh*

[Camino LS6]

Not that much yet, Satty.

But way too close.

[Chazman]

I believe this site started around 2000 or 2001, and GM wasn't "the cool thing" then, although most of us still had some hope.

I wonder how many "success is right around the corner" periods we've gone through since then?

[Satty]

about 600

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I believe this site started around 2000 or 2001, and GM wasn't "the cool thing" then, although most of us still had some hope.

2001 was the last year of huge profits and share growth. 2001 also saw the dawn of the Bob Lutz era if I'm not mistaken.

Those factors alone made interest in GM rise.

[Robert Hall]

Sometimes it feels like the industry is moving such that in 5-10 years getting a new car will be on par with buying a new stove or refrigerator. All the emotion and fun associated with owning and driving car will be engineered out. I'd really like to say that "This is America and we'll innovate our way out of this", but the fact is that GM (and most other car companies) are thinking globally and could care less about local markets. So what we're going to get is a one-size-fits-all car in every segment that'll do their jobs extremely well, but ultimately will have little emotional/cultural appeal.

*sigh*

We are already there...look at the success of appliances like the Corolla, Camry, Civic, Accord, etc. Function, reliability, quality, value for the money trumps emotional appeal for most buyers, I think.

Edited October 8, 2008 by moltar