Alpha camaro. Can you live without a V8?

[Chazman]

If an Alpha Camaro came without a V8 option, would that be acceptable?

Personally, I think what GM does, depends alot on what Ford does with it's next gen Mustang in '13/'14.

[Chazman]

Sorry mods about the triple post. I was trying to post a poll but somehow screwed it up.

[AAS]

I might be able to live without one. But based on PCS's posts about the new platform, I don't think we'll have to.

[z28luvr01]

For me, it probably doesn't matter, but for the car to be sold as a Camaro, it needs a V8 option even if it's a small displacement that has lower HP numbers than we're used to.

[Camino LS6]

In a word: no.

[ehaase]

The Camaro will need to get substantially over 30 mpg, since trucks will be averaged in the 35 mpg CAFE. I don't see how GM can offer V8's in any cars other than the Corvette and maybe the CTS-V. I don't even see how GM can offer V6's in anything other than Cadillacs to meet 35 mpg CAFE.

[Sixty8panther]

There's NO acceptable reason, (even if gas stayed at $3.50+/gallon) to have

a Camaro without a V8. This is more knee-jerk stupidity.

No V8 option? not a Camaro

FWD? not a Camaro!

transverse motor? NOT a Camaro!

I think I've made myself clear.

[ocnblu]

Will a V8 even fit in the Gamma platform?

[Chazman]

The Camaro will need to get substantially over 30 mpg, since trucks will be averaged in the 35 mpg CAFE. I don't see how GM can offer V8's in any cars other than the Corvette and maybe the CTS-V. I don't even see how GM can offer V6's in anything other than Cadillacs to meet 35 mpg CAFE.

From a marketing perspective, Camaro always benchmarks Mustang closely. If the next gen Mustang has a V8, Chevy will be under lots of pressure to follow suit. If Camaro's base models are equipped with I4 or turbo I4's getting 35 mpg, from a smaller, lighter Camaro - I can also imagine this smaller lighter Camaro getting over 30 mpg with a Gen 5 smallblock of around 5.0L.

[Camino LS6]

Take a look at the difference in MPG between current V8 cars and V6 cars, the difference is minimal at best.

No, I won't make that trade.

'sides, GM has been building V8 cars that can crack 30 MPG in real-world mileage for about a decade now.

Lighter cars are the answer (well, most of it).

A V8 is part of Camaro's DNA - it is a requirement.

[Camino LS6]

I have been wondering though, why so many V6 cars get such lousy MPG.

I think that might be a place to find quite a bit of improvement in the CAFE numbers.

[Camino LS6]

The Camaro will need to get substantially over 30 mpg, since trucks will be averaged in the 35 mpg CAFE. I don't see how GM can offer V8's in any cars other than the Corvette and maybe the CTS-V. I don't even see how GM can offer V6's in anything other than Cadillacs to meet 35 mpg CAFE.

It's all about the production volume, sales trends should help considerably (at least at first).

[Sixty8panther]

For the love of GoD why the F*** is GM not building a modern BOP 215 like last 2005?

I'm not saying the Camaro needs a 6.0 litter or even a 5.7 liter V8, but how about a

mini-V8, PUSHROD, in two or three displacements. Like say a 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 liter

sizes, the 3.0 being the "frugal", low compression, 87-octane drinking "STANDARD"

V8 motor for the Impala & Camaro, the 3.5 being the sporty, high volume variant &

the 4.0 being the "all out" Z/28 and SS motor.

Case closed, put a fork in it!

[Camino LS6]

While I find the idea of small V8s very interesting, you can't gain enough simply by dropping the displacement. You'd have to engineer a new line of V8s with a smaller and lighter overall envelope to really get the full benefit. I like that idea in principle, but it would be enormously expensive and would have implications for anything carrying a v8 option including trucks. As much as I hate to say it, I just can't see GM springing for two different V8 families given the times.

Still, I wish that they would.

A new twist on the old big block/small block approach would be very cool.

[Z-06]

The 4.9L DI V8 shown in the GMC Denali XT seems promising. If they can force induce it and produce a variety of small blocks and by love of God have the HCCI ready by then, it will be a good V8 family.

If they can punch out about 400 HP N/A of that engine (I cannot see a reason why not DI 3.6 V6 = 84.4 hp/l, DI V8 = 81.6 hp/l) it will be a capable engine with decent fuel economy.

[Sixty8panther]

Camino:

3/4 scale LS-series V8, reworked to accept 1:1-scale hardware (bolts, bearings etc.)

I know it's a bit more complicated than that but the superiority of a pushrod V8 in

terms of reliability and efficiency (as you said opposed to DOHC V6s) coupled with

small displacement would guarantee (imho) a virtual silver bullet solution!

As you said: BIG and small blocks.... the 21st century "small block" has 1960s BIG

block output.... time for a new gen SMALL block. :wink:

[Camino LS6]

The 4.9L DI V8 shown in the GMC Denali XT seems promising. If they can force induce it and produce a variety of small blocks and by love of God have the HCCI ready by then, it will be a good V8 family.

If they can punch out about 400 HP N/A of that engine (I cannot see a reason why not DI 3.6 V6 = 84.4 hp/l, DI V8 = 81.6 hp/l) it will be a capable engine with decent fuel economy.

Good steps for now, but what about ten years out?

If they did create a smaller V8 envelope, it could give the V8 a much longer lifespan.

Could be very, very, cool.

[Camino LS6]

Camino:

3/4 scale LS-series V8, reworked to accept 1:1-scale hardware (bolts, bearings etc.)

I know it's a bit more complicated than that but the superiority of a pushrod V8 in

terms of reliability and efficiency (as you said opposed to DOHC V6s) coupled with

small displacement would guarantee (imho) a virtual silver bullet solution!

As you said: BIG and small blocks.... the 21st century "small block" has 1960s BIG

block output.... time for a new gen SMALL block. :wink:

That's the recipe! :AH-HA_wink:

[Z-06]

Good steps for now, but what about ten years out?

If they did create a smaller V8 envelope, it could give the V8 a much longer lifespan.

Could be very, very, cool.

HCCI seems to be coming off age and looks promising. I think future is HCCI for the ICE. A DI with HCCI will make a good pair and GM does not have to sweat a lot for creating a good solid architecture based on their experience with V-8.

A family with 3.5L, 4.0L and 5.0L will be a good offering.

[Camino LS6]

That's the recipe! :AH-HA_wink:

EDIT:

It would also allow for Physically smaller transmissions, driveshafts, rear diffs,brakes, and so on.

A perfect driveline for smaller, lighter cars.

Imagine the "big block swaps" people would dream up!

[Camino LS6]

HCCI seems to be coming off age and looks promising. I think future is HCCI for the ICE. A DI with HCCI will make a good pair and GM does not have to sweat a lot for creating a good solid architecture based on their experience with V-8.

A family with 3.5L, 4.0L and 5.0L will be a good offering.

I have no doubt of that, just wanted to look ahead a bit farther. Of course, that tech could also apply at a 3/4 scale.

[Sixty8panther]

EDIT:

It would also allow for Physically smaller transmissions, driveshafts, rear diffs,brakes, and so on.

A perfect driveline for smaller, lighter cars.

Imagine the "big block swaps" people would dream up!

Great minds think alike!!!

longitudinal mounted motors, RWD and Baby-V8s with great MPG FTW!

[Camino LS6]

Just imagine a fifth gen Camaro reproduced at 3/4 scale ( in all the "hardparts") and I think we'd have a real winner.

[Camino LS6]

Of course GM would have to pull-off a record-breaking turnaround first to be able to afford it.

[gm4life]

It needs a V8. It needs to offer one in a mainstream performance trim and let the folks decide whether they want it or not. I would find a 5.0L V8 acceptable. I am not sure if I'd do a stripped V8 Camaro or loaded V6 yet.

[Chazman]

The 4.9L DI V8 shown in the GMC Denali XT seems promising. If they can force induce it and produce a variety of small blocks and by love of God have the HCCI ready by then, it will be a good V8 family.

If they can punch out about 400 HP N/A of that engine (I cannot see a reason why not DI 3.6 V6 = 84.4 hp/l, DI V8 = 81.6 hp/l) it will be a capable engine with decent fuel economy.

I questioned the two designers of the Denali pretty heavily at the Chicago show about the 4.9. My impressions were that it was essentially vaporware. A more fuel friendly 'number' on the press release than say, 6.2L. But it does let us know that GM is at least thinking different displacements for the Gen 5 smallblock.

[mustang84]

The Camaro will need to get substantially over 30 mpg, since trucks will be averaged in the 35 mpg CAFE. I don't see how GM can offer V8's in any cars other than the Corvette and maybe the CTS-V. I don't even see how GM can offer V6's in anything other than Cadillacs to meet 35 mpg CAFE.

Wasn't GM sitting at a 27 mpg average including trucks right now? As long as they come out with new small cars that get better than what the Aveo and Cobalt are getting now (minus the XFE), I don't see it being so farfetched to achieve 35 mpg by 2020. Especially not to the point where GM would only supply two of its cars with a V8 and make V6 exclusive to Cadillac.

[NOS2006]

I would agree with Sixty8 and say that it needs a small LSx V8 (5.0L DI perhaps, maybe even with a turbo for an exclusive high-performance model) with LS2 output in terms of power and V6 output in terms of fuel efficiency.

Then give us a turbo 4 and a potent V6.

[Chazman]

I would agree with Sixty8 and say that it needs a small LSx V8 (5.0L DI perhaps, maybe even with a turbo for an exclusive high-performance model) with LS2 output in terms of power and V6 output in terms of fuel efficiency.

Then give us a turbo 4 and a potent V6.

I'd be willing to give up a V6 in the line-up in order to retain a V8. As was mentioned earlier, the V6's don't really get that noteworthy MPG anyway. I'd take a 4 and turbo 4 line-up, if it meant more breathing space for an optional smallblock. Maybe a NA GDI 2.3L and a turbo 2.0L. I think the very efficient Family 0 1.4L turbo 4 might be alittle too weak though.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I will never buy a Camaro without a V8.

End of story.

And yes, I would be perfectly happy with a very light, very nimble 4.9L (302) equipped Z28

[Chazman]

I will never buy a Camaro without a V8.

End of story.

And yes, I would be perfectly happy with a very light, very nimble 4.9L (302) equipped Z28

And why couldn't we have that? In a package 12-15% lighter than the 5th gen, with say 20% less displacement, and lots more technology than the Gen IV smallblock. Why couldn't such a Z/28 get 30 (+) mpg?

[regfootball]

if they can cram a solstice or w-body with a v8, they can an alpha.

stop worrying.

although the question could be asked, is the time right for GM to design and new aluminum, compact pushrod v8? I prefer OHC, but this is an interesting question.

and a DI v6 twin turbo would do just as good a job.....

Edited September 30, 2008 by regfootball

[Chazman]

.

although the question could be asked, is the time right for GM to design and new aluminum, compact pushrod v8? I prefer OHC, but this is an interesting question.

I wouldn't expect them to design an all new V8, but the Gen5 smallblock will - sooner or later - be released.

[Camino LS6]

I suspect that timing will be the critical factor here.

Unfortunately, GM is notoriously bad when it comes to timing product effectively.

[Z-06]

I am gonna go smk... the problem is that Zeta is too heavy for its own good when it comes to fuel economy. If Camaro looses 700lb (from 3900 lb to 3200 lb) that 15% drop shall convert at least into 10% gain in fuel economy. Add to it smaller V8's DI and HCCI we can see a better Alpha Camaro. I hope GM spends some of those $5B in retooling for using lighter materials like magnesium and aluminum.

[Chazman]

I am gonna go smk... the problem is that Zeta is too heavy for its own good when it comes to fuel economy. If Camaro looses 700lb (from 3900 lb to 3200 lb) that 15% drop shall convert at least into 10% gain in fuel economy. Add to it smaller V8's DI and HCCI we can see a better Alpha Camaro. I hope GM spends some of those $5B in retooling for using lighter materials like magnesium and aluminum.

I've been told that one of Alpha's top priorities is to control mass. GM does NOT want a repeat of what happened to Zeta with it's out of control weight.

[ehaase]

What technology could raise the fuel economy of a V8 Camaro by roughtly 30 percent? I don't know of any car with a V8 anywhere that gets EPA 20 mpg in the city. It's not enough for the car to get over 30 on the highway; it's got to do much better with city mpg.

[Camino LS6]

What technology could raise the fuel economy of a V8 Camaro by roughtly 30 percent? I don't know of any car with a V8 anywhere that gets EPA 20 mpg in the city. It's not enough for the car to get over 30 on the highway; it's got to do much better with city mpg.

Actually, it doesn't.

V8 cars are a rare commodity already, and truck sales are way down, so the V8 is no real obstacle to increasing fuel economy fleetwide.

Now, the V6 is another story.

It really needs to do better, because it is such a large part of the market right now.

And it often makes V8 numbers for MPG.

That can't continue.

[z28luvr01]

What technology could raise the fuel economy of a V8 Camaro by roughtly 30 percent? I don't know of any car with a V8 anywhere that gets EPA 20 mpg in the city. It's not enough for the car to get over 30 on the highway; it's got to do much better with city mpg.

In the late 70s I'll bet noone thought that a small block V8 could make big block V8 power and yet be within reach of 30mpg hwy.

The lighter weight of an Alpha based car alone will help a lot. Throw direct-injection in a small displacement V8 and 25MPG city is doable even at the power output of the current V8s. HCCI could make things even more interesting.

And if a workable ethanol infrastructure is ever developed.....

[Camino LS6]

In the late 70s I'll bet noone thought that a small block V8 could make big block V8 power and yet be within reach of 30mpg hwy.

The lighter weight of an Alpha based car alone will help a lot. Throw direct-injection in a small displacement V8 and 25MPG city is doable even at the power output of the current V8s. HCCI could make things even more interesting.

And if a workable ethanol infrastructure is ever developed.....

Not to mention hybrid tech such as used in the Tahoe, or active fuel management, or smaller displacements, or gaseous fuels...

[ToniCipriani]

if they can cram a solstice or w-body with a v8, they can an alpha.

stop worrying.

although the question could be asked, is the time right for GM to design and new aluminum, compact pushrod v8? I prefer OHC, but this is an interesting question.

and a DI v6 twin turbo would do just as good a job.....

Not from factory. There's a lot more considerations for a mass production line versus a small workshop.

[Sixty8panther]

I suspect that timing will be the critical factor here.

Unfortunately, GM is notoriously bad when it comes to timing product effectively.

That's an understatement.

GM is so GOOD at bad timing it's like they took lessons from Jack (John Ridder) in Three's company.

[NOS2006]

What technology could raise the fuel economy of a V8 Camaro by roughtly 30 percent?

1. Less cubic inches

2. Lighter/smaller valvetrain pieces, crank, rods, pistons, flywheel, etc.

3. Better OEM porting of intake/exhaust passages

4. More efficient transmissions and rear ends

5. Better gearing

6. Lighter driveshafts

7. Direct Injection

8. VVT

9. Forced Induction

...and I'm sure that's just touching the tip of the iceberg. These all (well, mostly) cost money, but some are just better engineering.

Edited October 1, 2008 by NOS2006

[Oracle of Delphi]

I will say this one more time, the Alpha platform has been engineered to take an 8, 6, and 4 cylinder engine. The question then becomes will GM put the 8 in it?

[Chazman]

I will say this one more time, the Alpha platform has been engineered to take an 8, 6, and 4 cylinder engine. The question then becomes will GM put the 8 in it?

Well? Will they?

[Z-06]

I will say this one more time, the Alpha platform has been engineered to take an 8, 6, and 4 cylinder engine. The question then becomes will GM put the 8 in it?

Big B, when can we expect the mules to run, or are they already running?

[Camino LS6]

I will say this one more time, the Alpha platform has been engineered to take an 8, 6, and 4 cylinder engine. The question then becomes will GM put the 8 in it?

If any amount of logic remains at GM, there will be a Camaro and a Pontiac Alpha with a V8 option.

[SuperSport623]

i know i wont be the only with torches and a pitchfork at the RenCen if any product named CAMARO didnt have a v8

I will say this one more time, the Alpha platform has been engineered to take an 8, 6, and 4 cylinder engine. The question then becomes will GM put the 8 in it?

See? this is GM's problem! they dont get us enthusiasts! why the hell dont they engineer this car for the V16 swaps some of us want! this is why GM is swirling around the drain! FAIL!

=)

[Chazman]

Big B, when can we expect the mules to run, or are they already running?

I think Alpha right now is alot of computer math and design studio clay. I'd be shocked if there were any running prptotypes at this point.

[Chazman]

One other thought...

There has been lots of buzz, both on the internet and at Indy last month, regarding what's happening with the Z/28. Will it come or will it not come this gen . Considering that the original 5th gen Z/28 proposal weighed in at around 4100 pounds in full LSA regalia, I'm not sure if the world is really ready for a (GASP!) 4100 pound Camaro, regardless of how much power it puts out.

The other thing, will this gen Camaro even be around long enough to warrant the developement of a Z/28 package for it?

So........... if you were king of GM, would you spend those Z/28 developement dollars on a shortlived Zeta Camaro, or would you attempt to roll that money into a truly phenominal, smaller, lighter, more nimble, next gen Z/28 package.

Edited October 2, 2008 by Chazman