If GM decides to kill/emasculate Pontiac...

[Blake Noble]

You know, the more and more I read about how GM will be doing less and less of what they should actually be doing, the more I realize that I actually am getting dangerously close to not having an automaker with whom I would really like to buy my first new car from and would like to continue doing business with.

The closest automaker is BMW and, let's get real, how in the hell am I going to afford one of those right now?

Edited October 1, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

You know, the more and more I read about how GM will be doing less and less of what they should actually be doing, the more I realize that I actually am getting dangerously close to having no place where I would really like to buy my first new car from and would like to continue doing business with.

The closest automaker is BMW and, let's get real, how in the hell am I going to afford one of those right now?

...and that's why Pontiac matters.

[ToniCipriani]

Would anybody object if this was rebadged as a G3 instead?

Pair this up with the 1.6L Turbo available and it'll make smoke.

[Camino LS6]

Infinitely better than the Aveo, but still falls short.

[Sixty8panther]

For once I finally agree with you...

All the planets must be aligned JUST right.

I think my Mars is firmly inside Venus' orbit, and Jupiter is headed for Uranus.

[Blake Noble]

...and that's why Pontiac matters.

Exactly.

Sometimes I wonder if there is any cause in supporting GM any more. The more I've been hearing from them lately, if it's an official statement from the PR department to the usual rumor to what's being done but not being said, the more and more I've realized that there's not much of anything for me to like.

For example, the Volt is a great idea, a great product, and is most certainly better in many categories than most vehicles it intends to compete with, but, at it's root, it's just as much of a PR tool to GM as the Prius is to Toyota (however, I can't fault GM for fighting just as dirty with Toyota as Toyota has fought with GM in the past). But I know that I would never spend the money to pay for it's sticker price in order to buy one.

The only one GM product that I would ever consider for a new car purchase would be the F5 Camaro. However, there are details that horribly irk me about the base LS model that I would be buying; like the base steel wheels, for example, when the base model Mustangs and Challengers come with at least some form of alloy five-spoke wheels that are much better and don't blatantly say "cheap, cheap, cheap." The weight bothers me as well, but I can live with it.

The G8 is an honorable mention. However, I do not want nor do I need a sedan. If GM actually built the Coupe60 and made a version of it as a G8 for The States, with a manual transmission as an option, I would then seriously consider the G8.

The Solstice and Sky are nice as well, but I already own a strictly two-person vehicle: it's called a regular cab truck and the lack of extra people room can sometimes be a real pain in the ass, so that's out.

Edited October 1, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

...and that's why Pontiac matters.

Beautifully stated...

Would anybody object if this was rebadged as a G3 instead?

Not as much as they do now...

[PurdueGuy]

Would anybody object if this was rebadged as a G3 instead?

Pair this up with the 1.6L Turbo available and it'll make smoke.

I might, since Saturn's supposed to get it, but I've given up on caring too much about what Saturn does & doesn't get. Funny, I think that's the same feeling that most brand-specific GM enthusiasts are feeling...

Edited October 1, 2008 by PurdueGuy

[Blake Noble]

I might, since Saturn's supposed to get it, but I've given up on caring too much about what Saturn does & doesn't get. Funny, I think that's the same feeling that most brand-specific GM enthusiasts are feeling...

That's the way I really feel about the whole company.

[ToniCipriani]

I might, since Saturn's supposed to get it, but I've given up on caring too much about what Saturn does & doesn't get. Funny, I think that's the same feeling that most brand-specific GM enthusiasts are feeling...

Go straight ahead, let Saturn have the 5-door version. The more Gamma, the more volume, the merrier. At least let Pontiac get the 3-door version.

There, no more divisional fighting... just if the world is that perfect...

[Oracle of Delphi]

Would anybody object if this was rebadged as a G3 instead?

Pair this up with the 1.6L Turbo available and it'll make smoke.

Yes I would object, along with all of GME. I don't know how I can stress to you any more than I already have, that Pontiac will NEVER be given any GME products, N E V E R!

[Robert Hall]

Yes I would object, along with all of GME. I don't know how I can stress to you any more than I already have, that Pontiac will NEVER be given any GME products, N E V E R!

Yet Saturn gets GME products... so they will be the preferred child while Pontiac will be starved?

Edited October 1, 2008 by moltar

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yet Saturn gets GME products... so they will be the preferred child while Pontiac will be starved?

Of course Saturn gets GME products, that has been the plan for a few years now, there wasn't, and never will be a plan to share those products with Pontiac. They made their bed with Holden, now they have to sleep in it. Guess they backed the wrong horse.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Of course Saturn gets GME products, that has been the plan for a few years now, there wasn't, and never will be a plan to share those products with Pontiac. They made their bed with Holden, now they have to sleep in it. Guess they backed the wrong horse.

So, it's all about politics and not what the company needs to do to sell more cars (or even survive)

Typical GM... BTW, what got CPF's Victoria Secret specials in a twist about Holden/Pontiac anyway?

[Oracle of Delphi]

So, it's all about politics and not what the company needs to do to sell more cars (or even survive)

Typical GM... BTW, what got CPF's Victoria Secret specials in a twist about Holden/Pontiac anyway?

Every Company has internal politics, GM is no exception. Have you noticed that there is no Zeta in the Opel lineup, other than in the UK, and that was only because they drive on the same side of the road as OZ, so that was a no brainer. On the European continent, Zeta is verboten (forbidden), except for winter testing in Sweden, and for a few selected test.

Pontiac reminds me of John McCain, he and Pontiac can't seem to make up their mind as to what they want to be. Pontiac used to be all RWD, then they went some RWD and FWD, then they went FWD, then they became FWD and RWD again, moving to an all RWD lineup, hence the tie up with Holden. Well oops, that looks like a mistake now, with the economy, gas prices, CAFE, impending CO2 regs and now they need to go back to FWD, Opel products are for Saturn alone in North America, that was always the plan and that's what works for Opel too. So Pontiac's only choice will be to offer GMDAT rebadged products, that's why you see the G3 coming to Pontiac. Like a poor marksman, Pontiac keeps missing it's target. Pontiac is fast becoming a Chevy rebadge, perhaps it's time to retire the old girl and move Saturn/Opel into the BPG sales channel.

No one was more of a Pontiac fan than I was, but they sold their soul with the Holden tie up and wanting to go all RWD, I would have been willing to work to save Pontiac, had they 1.) Not hooked up with Holden and 2.) not gone all RWD and left a few models FWD, so people like me that loved Pontiac would still have choices to buy that brand. Now the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it? Pontiac wants to have a RWD/FWD lineup again, I say, too little too late and I whisper that message into the ears of anyone in GME that will listen.

[regfootball]

FWIW, i don't think people in NA would accept rebadged Opels as Pontiacs.

It sounds like without Zeta, Pontiac had no backup plan.

I really think there is a place for Chevy (to fight low aspiring Asian offerings), Saturn (vs. VW and Honda with Opels), and I really do think there is a place for Buick and Pontiac but not if Pontiac is mere rebadges. And for Buick to go the way of Buick China also is astray.

I don't think Buick and Pontiac need many models, they just need to be unique and special. Problem is standalone BPG dealers need volume to survive and this is where the FWD clones and rebadges come in.

Until GM fixes is sales channels, this will be a big problem. Like it or not, Saturn has the ability to have the most unique offerings in NA here.....they will be shared with Opel and not many Saturn dealers share floor with Chevy or BPG.

Pontiac has Chrysler to blame for that overreaction to RWD. Fine if that would have stayed but expensive gas fixed that. Now Pontiac is scrambling. Is the next G6 Alpha or Epsilon 2? How long does the G8 stay, and on Zeta?

[Sixty8panther]

PCS:

Zeta was not, IS not a mistake. RWD is not the problem here, can't

you (and by extension GM) understand that?!?!?!

Do you see BMW designing some POS front-drier 3-series because

of gas prices? How about Mazda, are they busy fu**ing around with

FWD Miata prototypes? And Ford, the Probe II is eminent.... right?

IF Pontiac was all-RWD and marketed and designed as a TRUE

enthusiast's brand they would be safe from sales losses due to MPG

and CAFE could be taken care of with a smart mix of modern MINI

competitors or even a "high" volume model long the lines of the

1960s/early-1970s BMW 2002.

[Sixty8panther]

I say, too little too late and I whisper that message into the ears of anyone in GME that will listen.

And that's why so many on here despise you.

Your user name should be Judas. Enjoy your 30-pieces of silver.

[ehaase]

And that's why so many on here despise you.

But so many on here love him. At least he is always interesting and often correct.

[z28luvr01]

Every Company has internal politics, GM is no exception. Have you noticed that there is no Zeta in the Opel lineup, other than in the UK, and that was only because they drive on the same side of the road as OZ, so that was a no brainer. On the European continent, Zeta is verboten (forbidden), except for winter testing in Sweden, and for a few selected test.

Pontiac reminds me of John McCain, he and Pontiac can't seem to make up their mind as to what they want to be. Pontiac used to be all RWD, then they went some RWD and FWD, then they went FWD, then they became FWD and RWD again, moving to an all RWD lineup, hence the tie up with Holden. Well oops, that looks like a mistake now, with the economy, gas prices, CAFE, impending CO2 regs and now they need to go back to FWD, Opel products are for Saturn alone in North America, that was always the plan and that's what works for Opel too. So Pontiac's only choice will be to offer GMDAT rebadged products, that's why you see the G3 coming to Pontiac. Like a poor marksman, Pontiac keeps missing it's target. Pontiac is fast becoming a Chevy rebadge, perhaps it's time to retire the old girl and move Saturn/Opel into the BPG sales channel.

No one was more of a Pontiac fan than I was, but they sold their soul with the Holden tie up and wanting to go all RWD, I would have been willing to work to save Pontiac, had they 1.) Not hooked up with Holden and 2.) not gone all RWD and left a few models FWD, so people like me that loved Pontiac would still have choices to buy that brand. Now the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it? Pontiac wants to have a RWD/FWD lineup again, I say, too little too late and I whisper that message into the ears of anyone in GME that will listen.

I have to ask: Back in the early portion of this decade, when Pontiac's lineup was a cruel joke, and GM decided it wanted RWD back at Pontiac, and GMNA had just killed its last volume RWD platform, and the Catera was just finishing up a miserable run in the US, how would you have gone about getting Pontiac the RWD vehicle it wanted? The fact remains that Holden was the only place where GM could get a RWD platform that could fit more than two seats. If not for the VE platform's availablilty, GM might be completely devoid of RWD save for the Corvette.

Another question: what exactly is the root of GME's hatred of Holden and, consequently, Pontiac for its relationship with Holden? Is it because Holden turned the run-of-the-mill Omega into a hot blooded supercar, and created enough variants out of it to make your head spin? Is it because Holden stopped selling Opels and went to Daewoos, thus costing Opel some business? Whatever the reason, all of GM will suffer if GME doesn't get over their little tiff.

[Chazman]

I have to ask: Back in the early portion of this decade, when Pontiac's lineup was a cruel joke, and GM decided it wanted RWD back at Pontiac, and GMNA had just killed its last volume RWD platform, and the Catera was just finishing up a miserable run in the US, how would you have gone about getting Pontiac the RWD vehicle it wanted? The fact remains that Holden was the only place where GM could get a RWD platform that could fit more than two seats. If not for the VE platform's availablilty, GM might be completely devoid of RWD save for the Corvette.

Another question: what exactly is the root of GME's hatred of Holden and, consequently, Pontiac for its relationship with Holden? Is it because Holden turned the run-of-the-mill Omega into a hot blooded supercar, and created enough variants out of it to make your head spin? Is it because Holden stopped selling Opels and went to Daewoos, thus costing Opel some business? Whatever the reason, all of GM will suffer if GME doesn't get over their little tiff.

I'd like to hear that too.

I can tell you that circa '02/'03 Pontiac had a pretty hot line up planned based on FWD/AWD and supercharged/turbocharged engines. It's halo would have been an especially hot AWD coupe with a SC'd V6. I don't know what it was based on, but I imagined it was Epsilon. I was told that the M3 was it's performance benchmark.

I don't know what happened, but as soon as Pontiac announced that it would be importing the GTO, everything changed for Pontiac.

[cire]

Every Company has internal politics, GM is no exception. Have you noticed that there is no Zeta in the Opel lineup, other than in the UK, and that was only because they drive on the same side of the road as OZ, so that was a no brainer. On the European continent, Zeta is verboten (forbidden), except for winter testing in Sweden, and for a few selected test.

Pontiac reminds me of John McCain, he and Pontiac can't seem to make up their mind as to what they want to be. Pontiac used to be all RWD, then they went some RWD and FWD, then they went FWD, then they became FWD and RWD again, moving to an all RWD lineup, hence the tie up with Holden. Well oops, that looks like a mistake now, with the economy, gas prices, CAFE, impending CO2 regs and now they need to go back to FWD, Opel products are for Saturn alone in North America, that was always the plan and that's what works for Opel too. So Pontiac's only choice will be to offer GMDAT rebadged products, that's why you see the G3 coming to Pontiac. Like a poor marksman, Pontiac keeps missing it's target. Pontiac is fast becoming a Chevy rebadge, perhaps it's time to retire the old girl and move Saturn/Opel into the BPG sales channel.

No one was more of a Pontiac fan than I was, but they sold their soul with the Holden tie up and wanting to go all RWD, I would have been willing to work to save Pontiac, had they 1.) Not hooked up with Holden and 2.) not gone all RWD and left a few models FWD, so people like me that loved Pontiac would still have choices to buy that brand. Now the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it? Pontiac wants to have a RWD/FWD lineup again, I say, too little too late and I whisper that message into the ears of anyone in GME that will listen.

If Pontiac's future lies in carrying small rebadged Chevy clones via GMDAT, then I agree with putting the brand out of its misery; Pontiac will have no relevance or purpose in the market. I view BPG as a midmarket premium network to bridge the gap between Chevrolet and Saab/Cadillac. Based on this perception, BPG should not be offering any rebadged Chevy/GMDAT vehicles in their lineups.

I still think Pontiac has some potential to be something relevant in the market if GM would give it a clearly defined product strategy. Rebadged Chevy/GMDAT vehicles do not represent an acceptable product strategy. I would rather see Pontiac discontinued than reduced to such an unacceptable fate.

I can think of many different solutions that could be implemented to prevent this from happening, but it seems that GM has decided that Pontiac is not worthy of their time and attention.

Edited October 1, 2008 by cire

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Every Company has internal politics, GM is no exception. Have you noticed that there is no Zeta in the Opel lineup, other than in the UK, and that was only because they drive on the same side of the road as OZ, so that was a no brainer. On the European continent, Zeta is verboten (forbidden), except for winter testing in Sweden, and for a few selected test.

Yes, but that's a product of the market and legislation there I figured (Zeta is way too heavy to meet the regs)

Pontiac reminds me of John McCain, he and Pontiac can't seem to make up their mind as to what they want to be. Pontiac used to be all RWD, then they went some RWD and FWD, then they went FWD, then they became FWD and RWD again, moving to an all RWD lineup, hence the tie up with Holden. Well oops, that looks like a mistake now, with the economy, gas prices, CAFE, impending CO2 regs and now they need to go back to FWD, Opel products are for Saturn alone in North America, that was always the plan and that's what works for Opel too. So Pontiac's only choice will be to offer GMDAT rebadged products, that's why you see the G3 coming to Pontiac. Like a poor marksman, Pontiac keeps missing it's target. Pontiac is fast becoming a Chevy rebadge, perhaps it's time to retire the old girl and move Saturn/Opel into the BPG sales channel.

Nah... Pontiac just hasn't been given the best rifle GM has to offer.

BTW, some sources are saying that Pontiac actually Opted OFF of the Alpha platform in favor of Epsilon (for volume sake) And last I heard, Epsilon was technically a GME product. How ironic that an Opel will basically underpin the best selling Pontiac in NA.

No one was more of a Pontiac fan than I was, but they sold their soul with the Holden tie up and wanting to go all RWD, I would have been willing to work to save Pontiac, had they 1.) Not hooked up with Holden

Why do you and GME dislike Holden so much?

Is it because Holden stole global RWD work from GME (Wasn't the Catera and GTO a GME designed architecture?)

and 2.) not gone all RWD and left a few models FWD, so people like me that loved Pontiac would still have choices to buy that brand. Now the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it? Pontiac wants to have a RWD/FWD lineup again, I say, too little too late and I whisper that message into the ears of anyone in GME that will listen.

It's a good thing GME isn't developing Alpha then

I don't understand your logic... Pontiac is GM's performance division and GM doesn't WANT more than one volume division. The logical way to go was all RWD (Lutz probably had a lot to do with this) and global RWD was at Holden.

You talk of Pontiac alienating buyerts like yourself when most of their line up is STILL FWD cars that you can buy and you have admitted to a future purchase of Alpha a RWD platform (The one that Pontiac was set to benefit the most from)

I'm not buying it.

It seems that someone ruffled someone elses feathers. Maybe the execs at GM should grow some balls and stop the estrogen therapy so that they don't fight like a bunch of sorority girls at a handbag and sunglass sale.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I have to ask: Back in the early portion of this decade, when Pontiac's lineup was a cruel joke, and GM decided it wanted RWD back at Pontiac, and GMNA had just killed its last volume RWD platform, and the Catera was just finishing up a miserable run in the US, how would you have gone about getting Pontiac the RWD vehicle it wanted? The fact remains that Holden was the only place where GM could get a RWD platform that could fit more than two seats. If not for the VE platform's availablilty, GM might be completely devoid of RWD save for the Corvette.

Another question: what exactly is the root of GME's hatred of Holden and, consequently, Pontiac for its relationship with Holden? Is it because Holden turned the run-of-the-mill Omega into a hot blooded supercar, and created enough variants out of it to make your head spin? Is it because Holden stopped selling Opels and went to Daewoos, thus costing Opel some business? Whatever the reason, all of GM will suffer if GME doesn't get over their little tiff.

My only hope is that the people who ACTUALLY run the company, instead of posting on message boards, have a better grip on reality.

I think the key is still Holden... If Holden gets an Alpha to supplement or replace the Commodore (as rumored) then I think Pontiac will be fine.

Either way, I think we're in for a rough and embarrassing few years at Pontiac, if the division survives.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'd like to hear that too.

I can tell you that circa '02/'03 Pontiac had a pretty hot line up planned based on FWD/AWD and supercharged/turbocharged engines. It's halo would have been an especially hot AWD coupe with a SC'd V6. I don't know what it was based on, but I imagined it was Epsilon. I was told that the M3 was it's performance benchmark.

I don't know what happened, but as soon as Pontiac announced that it would be importing the GTO, everything changed for Pontiac.

Bob Lutz... That's what happened.

And I think that's why PCS hates Uncle Bob as well.

It seems that professional jealousy runs rampant among the OFTEN overshadowed and OFTEN forgotten execs of GME.

[Robert Hall]

I'd like to hear that too.

I can tell you that circa '02/'03 Pontiac had a pretty hot line up planned based on FWD/AWD and supercharged/turbocharged engines. It's halo would have been an especially hot AWD coupe with a SC'd V6. I don't know what it was based on, but I imagined it was Epsilon. I was told that the M3 was it's performance benchmark.

I don't know what happened, but as soon as Pontiac announced that it would be importing the GTO, everything changed for Pontiac.

Alas, the GTO was the first model in a long time to have any relevance at Pontiac, which by 2003 was just another GM brand peddling mediocre FWD rental cars.

[buyacargetacheck]

In case you haven't noticed, Opels aren't really doing that well for Saturn. There's less of a chance they'd do well for Pontiac because price and the "deal" is as important as sporty looks for the typical Pontiac customer especially in Canada. Anything built in Europe that isn't prestigious is doomed to fail because of the US dollar tanking.

Would anybody object if this was rebadged as a G3 instead?

Pair this up with the 1.6L Turbo available and it'll make smoke.

[buyacargetacheck]

Maybe that's true if you define Pontiac as its 1960s high-horsepower glory days. But that ignores nearly 40 years of high sales of workaday, value-packed Pontiacs. The Grand Am, as Pontiac's best-seller for many years, was more relevant than any Holden GTO in both sales and probably overall profits.

We'd all do well to put Pontiac in perspective by remembering fondly of the 400ci days but respecting Pontiac for what it really is and has mostly always been.

Alas, the GTO was the first model in a long time to have any relevance at Pontiac, which by 2003 was just another GM brand peddling mediocre FWD rental cars.

Edited October 1, 2008 by buyacargetacheck

[Robert Hall]

Maybe that's true if you define Pontiac as its 1960s high-horsepower glory days. But that ignores nearly 40 years of high sales of workaday, value-packed Pontiacs. The Grand Am, as Pontiac's best-seller for many years, was more relevant than any Holden GTO in both sales and probably overall profits.

We'd all do well to put Pontiac in perspective by remembering fondly of the 400ci days but respecting Pontiac for what it really is and has mostly always been.

Maybe..to me, the Grand Am was just a dull rental car. Then again, I've never been a FWD believer...

Edited October 1, 2008 by moltar

[buyacargetacheck]

Not any more or less dull than a Camry or an Accord. The interior styling in the later versions were definitely not dull. Overall fit and finish/refinement was not great though.

Anyway, this is what Pontiac has mostly been since the 1970s. We're not doing ourselves any favors by imagining Pontiac as something it never was.

Maybe..to me, the Grand Am was just a dull rental car. Then again, I've never been a FWD believer...

[AAS]

...Opel products are for Saturn alone in North America, that was always the plan...

So, will Opels badged as Chevrolets in Mexico (at least that I know of) become Saturns?

[cire]

It seems that someone ruffled someone elses feathers. Maybe the execs at GM should grow some balls and stop the estrogen therapy so that they don't fight like a bunch of sorority girls at a handbag and sunglass sale.

I totally agree. If GM is allowing internal politics and senseless bickering to impede their ability to fully utilize their potentially lucrative resources or give their divisions brand appropriate products, then they deserve to fall on their face. Nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, should be allowed to stand in the way of the corporation's ultimate goals: SUCCESS, PROFITABILITY, COMPETITIVENESS (within the market, not within the corporation), RELEVANCE, & LONGEVITY.

[REDO1GPGT]

Like a poor marksman, GM keeps missing it's target.

Fixed. Oh, that's right GM doesn't even have a target, everything about the company is such a half-ass effort they're a joke.

Edited October 1, 2008 by REDO1GPGT

[z28luvr01]

Of course Saturn gets GME products, that has been the plan for a few years now, there wasn't, and never will be a plan to share those products with Pontiac. They made their bed with Holden, now they have to sleep in it. Guess they backed the wrong horse.

Chevy (Middle East), Vauxhall (England), Buick (China), and Daewoo (Southeast Asia) have all at one point or another gotten in bed with Holden. Are there plans to phase those brands out as well?

Just saying....

[Robert Hall]

Chevy (Middle East), Vauxhall (England), Buick (China), and Daewoo (Southeast Asia) have all at one point or another gotten in bed with Holden. Are there plans to phase those brands out as well?

Just saying....

PCS is mad that Pontiac didn't continue his beloved mediocre W-body Grand Prix and is now doing his part to help kill the brand from within GM

Edited October 1, 2008 by moltar

[cire]

Of course Saturn gets GME products, that has been the plan for a few years now, there wasn't, and never will be a plan to share those products with Pontiac. They made their bed with Holden, now they have to sleep in it. Guess they backed the wrong horse.

I've never quite understood the logic of aligning Saturn with Opel. Saturn has a well established market identity as a quirky affordable brand which appeals to those who value maximum space for minimal money. Opel seems to be moving in an upmarket direction with products that appeal to those who are seeking sporty and stylish vehicles. Attempting to align the 2 brands doesn't seem to be a logical or successful proposition. I think this might be the major reason why Bob Lutz has announced that the next gen Aura would be significantly different from the Opel Insignia. The Insignia favors sophistication and style over affordability and utility, which would make it quite unsuccessful in Saturn's lineup and undesirable to Saturn's traditional clientele. GM would have been better off completely replacing Saturn with Opel (which has very little, if any, market baggage in the U.S. to limit its appeal or market demographic) or aligning Opel with Pontiac (which has a sportier image and a larger dealership base) than attempting to move Saturn upmarket by giving it an Opel inspired lineup.

I do have a question. How much power do the individual divisions have in deciding their product strategies? Based on what I have read on this forum and other sources, the product strategies seem to be formed more by bickering ego-driven corporate executives, bean counting corporate accountants, and whining dealerships than any clearly defined or coherent plans formed by individual division managers. It appears that the main responsibility of division managers is to attempt to convince the public that the resulting product placement decisions are appropriate and acceptable for their respective divisions.

Edited October 1, 2008 by cire

[Camino LS6]

I've never quite understood the logic of aligning Saturn with Opel. Saturn has a well established market identity as a quirky affordable brand which appeals to those who value maximum space for minimal money. Opel seems to be moving in an upmarket direction with products that appeal to those who are seeking sporty and stylish vehicles. Attempting to align the 2 brands doesn't seem to be a logical or successful proposition. I think this might be the major reason why Bob Lutz has announced that the next gen Aura would be significantly different from the Opel Insignia. The Insignia favors sophistication and style over affordability and utility, which would make it quite unsuccessful in Saturn's lineup and undesirable to Saturn's traditional clientele. GM would have been better off completely replacing Saturn with Opel (which has very little, if any, market baggage in the U.S. to limit its appeal or market demographic) or aligning Opel with Pontiac (which has a sportier image and a larger dealership base) than attempting to move Saturn upmarket by giving it an Opel inspired lineup.

I do have a question. How much power do the individual divisions have in deciding their product strategies? Based on what I have read on this forum and other sources, the product strategies seem to be formed more by bickering ego-driven corporate executives, bean counting corporate accountants, and whining dealerships than any clearly defined or coherent plans formed by individual division managers. It appears that the main responsibility of division managers is to attempt to convince the public that the resulting product placement decisions are appropriate and acceptable for their respective divisions.

That sums up the problem nicely, the way GM has run Pontiac defines malpractice.

GME should bugger-off and let Pontiac and Holden do what they do best without any interference from Europe. I wouldn't want one of those "vaunted" Opels anyway, they are nothing to get excited about (as proven by Saturn sales).

So screw GME and what it wants, Pontiac needs Holden and a few good GMNA-built models on Alpha, Zeta, and whatever replaces Kappa..

European connections not required.

And if Caddy doesn't like it, they need to STFU as well.

[ToniCipriani]

Yes I would object, along with all of GME. I don't know how I can stress to you any more than I already have, that Pontiac will NEVER be given any GME products, N E V E R!

I'm just hypothesizing. This whole thread is an hypothesis too... at least I hope it is.

Edited October 1, 2008 by ToniCipriani

[cire]

That sums up the problem nicely, the way GM has run Pontiac defines malpractice.

GME should bugger-off and let Pontiac and Holden do what they do best without any interference from Europe. I wouldn't want one of those "vaunted" Opels anyway, they are nothing to get excited about (as proven by Saturn sales).

So screw GME and what it wants, Pontiac needs Holden and a few good GMNA-built models on Alpha, Zeta, and whatever replaces Kappa..

European connections not required.

And if Caddy doesn't like it, they need to STFU as well.

I think the current Astra should not have been imported into the U.S. The styling is cool, but a lot of the details (engine, transmission, options, amenities) needed to be altered to better match the expectations of U.S. buyers (especially for a premium compact). The absence of a sedan version probably isn't helping matters either. It also would have helped if the car could have been built in North America to avoid the exchange rate issue. In addition to the car's own shortcomings, it is being sold under a brand that seems to be trying to straddle the affordable and premium segments of the market. The Astra is simply a good car that is burdened by the effects of poor product planning and execution by GM.

I would love to see the Insignia and other future Opel products sold here, I just question their potential to sell well here as Saturns. I don't think Saturn has the proper identity or premium credibility to fully represent Opel in the U.S. I think Saturn should be combined with Buick and reduced to a small car entry sub-brand to complement Buick in a midmarket premium sales channel. I think Saturn could effectively support this new position by selling next gen North American built versions of the Corsa 3-door/5-door, Astra 3-door/5-door, plus the Meriva and Zafira MPVs. Next gen Opel sedans, wagons, coupe-cabrios, and crossovers (starting with the current Insignia) should be assigned to Buick to complete its lineup and make the brand the high profile member of this sales channel. This would give GM a cost effective way to complete Buick's lineup (in the U.S. and China) as well as allowing the corporation to set up an effective, lucrative, and successful premium midmarket sales channel in the U.S. featuring a division (Buick) that has an established premium image (as well as excellent quality/reliability scores) in the market. The only "ground up" development costs required beyond the Opel based products would be funds to create approximately 2-4 products to complete Buick's lineup. This relationship between Saturn and Buick in the U.S. could be duplicated between Opel and Buick in China since Buick is more popular and established in that market as well.

Since Pontiac is apparently not going to receive any Opel products, I think it should be designated as the corporation's affordable performance sub-brand and combined with Chevrolet. GMC should be designated as the corporation's sole truck/SUV sub-brand and combined with Chevrolet as well. Chevrolet's lineup would be reduced and focused on affordable FWD cars and crossovers.

Under this setup, Pontiac's lineup would consist of the following products:

* LeMans: RWD compact 5-door sedan (Alpha: resurrected Holden Torana with styling inspired by the Torana TT 36 Concept)

* Grand Prix: RWD midsize sedan (Sigma-Zeta: downsized next gen Holden Commodore)

* Trans Am: RWD compact sports coupe/convertible (Alpha: replaces next gen Chevy Camaro)

* GTO: RWD midsize coupe (Sigma-Zeta: resurrected Holden Monaro with styling inspired by the Coupe 60 Concept)

* Corvette: RWD flagship 2-seat sports coupe/convertible (I know the Corvette has always been sold under the Chevy name, but it needs to be moved to Pontiac in order for this setup to work. Besides, the Corvette has its own distinct badging and it will still be sold at Chevy dealerships since Pontiac will share showrooms with Chevrolet under this dealer network configuration).

Although Pontiac is restricted to North America only, its products could be sold globally under different brands. They could appear as Holdens in Australia, Chevrolets in the Middle East, etc.

To differentiate the products and prevent them from competing with their Cadillac platform mates, Pontiac products would be engineered and equipped with features that would keep them targeted at the affordable portion of the market. Cadillac would be the destination for people who desire and can afford all the technological bells and whistles.

GM could support all its brands if it would learn that the divisions don't need to be all things to all people. The divisions need to be assigned focused roles that showcase their strengths and given brand appropriate products that reinforce their designated roles. Chevrolet could handle the mainstream affordable portion of the market with Pontiac and GMC supporting it in well defined niche roles. Buick could become a high profile premium division with Saturn supporting it as a small premium vehicle sub-brand. Saab and Cadillac could work together to cover the luxury portion of the market; Saab could supply Cadillac with some luxury credibility in foreign markets (as well as some U.S. markets) while Cadillac could supply Saab with more exposure and a higher profile in the U.S. with its larger dealer base. If GM would change their way of thinking and how it utilizes its global resources, then it would have a more streamlined portfolio that would effectively cover all segments of the U.S. auto market.

As for all the internal corporate pettiness, bickering, and ego-tripping, it needs to end so GM can focus on what it needs to do to be successful and profitable in each market. Cadillac doesn't cover the same portion of the market as Pontiac and doesn't need to worry about what Pontiac is doing. If GMNA needs GME products to help it be competitive or fill a need over here, then GME shouldn't be presenting obstacles to prevent it from happening or dictating which divisions should receive the products. If the corporation fails, it will affect all parts of GM. You would think that the corporation's employees would realize this and do whatever it takes to ensure that the corporation succeeds.

Edited October 2, 2008 by cire

[Camino LS6]

Cire: I agree with most of what you propose, but some of the details and one of the main ideas simply are not workable.

Main point: Chevrolet and Pontiac cannot co-exist at the same dealership, if for no other reason than that Chevy already has more models than many dealers can effectively inventory.

Detail #1: There is simply no way that Corvette and Camaro buyers will ever accept the Pontiac badge on their cars. The idea would reap only ridicule and sales disaster.

Detail#2: Just as I left out a fun, small FWD/AWD Mini competitor for Pontiac, so did you. We are both wrong to have done so.

Otherwise, I love the idea of rolling Saturn into a sub-brand of Buick and slowly dissolving the stand alone Saturn stores. It would be a slow and expensive process, but in time it could create positive results. Far better than taking the easy way out by starving Pontiac out of existence, just because it's easier to do. Making corporate decisions like that stems from a negative assumption, not a positive one, and so is doomed from the outset to failure.

Saturn has proven that it lacks the strength to stand alone, and by virtue of that fact it, and not Pontiac, needs to be the target for consolidation. Such a consolidation need not be at the expense of Pontiac.

[gm4life]

Cire: I agree with most of what you propose, but some of the details and one of the main ideas simply are not workable.

Main point: Chevrolet and Pontiac cannot co-exist at the same dealership, if for no other reason than that Chevy already has more models than many dealers can effectively inventory.

Detail #1: There is simply no way that Corvette and Camaro buyers will ever accept the Pontiac badge on their cars. The idea would reap only ridicule and sales disaster.

Detail#2: Just as I left out a fun, small FWD/AWD Mini competitor for Pontiac, so did you. We are both wrong to have done so.

Otherwise, I love the idea of rolling Saturn into a sub-brand of Buick and slowly dissolving the stand alone Saturn stores. It would be a slow and expensive process, but in time it could create positive results. Far better than taking the easy way out by starving Pontiac out of existence, just because it's easier to do. Making corporate decisions like that stems from a negative assumption, not a positive one, and so is doomed from the outset to failure.

Saturn has proven that it lacks the strength to stand alone, and by virtue of that fact it, and not Pontiac, needs to be the target for consolidation. Such a consolidation need not be at the expense of Pontiac.

What a great post, I just like you believe Pontiac should live. But if they need some FWD and RWD together that is fine but PCS trying to kill the brand even though he is in Europe it really rubs me the wrong way. I think he might be pissed that Pontiac actually got the GTO and G8 two cars that have a true Pontiac spirit. If Pontiac would get more mileage out of the Opels then Saturn why not give them to Pontiac? Oh wait isn't Pontiac still outselling Saturn?

Edited October 2, 2008 by gm4life

[daves87rs]

I think Caddy should share.....

Make the platforms cheaper (cost)...give Pontiac something fun to drive....

GME would be a waste a money, and the only decent thing out of Holden would be the Zeta platform.....

I hate to say it, but Caddy will NOT be the standard of luxury much longer....they about to have their asses handed to them by THREE different companies......

While GM comes up with some new ideas for Caddy, share some of that love with Pontiac...

And dump a few models while they are at....

The G5 and G6 are some of the lamest models GM has out there.....

[daves87rs]

Oh, and I thought we were done member bashing.....

What a lame thread this is turning out to be.....

[cire]

Cire: I agree with most of what you propose, but some of the details and one of the main ideas simply are not workable.

Main point: Chevrolet and Pontiac cannot co-exist at the same dealership, if for no other reason than that Chevy already has more models than many dealers can effectively inventory.

Detail #1: There is simply no way that Corvette and Camaro buyers will ever accept the Pontiac badge on their cars. The idea would reap only ridicule and sales disaster.

Detail#2: Just as I left out a fun, small FWD/AWD Mini competitor for Pontiac, so did you. We are both wrong to have done so.

Otherwise, I love the idea of rolling Saturn into a sub-brand of Buick and slowly dissolving the stand alone Saturn stores. It would be a slow and expensive process, but in time it could create positive results. Far better than taking the easy way out by starving Pontiac out of existence, just because it's easier to do. Making corporate decisions like that stems from a negative assumption, not a positive one, and so is doomed from the outset to failure.

Saturn has proven that it lacks the strength to stand alone, and by virtue of that fact it, and not Pontiac, needs to be the target for consolidation. Such a consolidation need not be at the expense of Pontiac.

Thanks for the feedback.

I do have some replies and responses to your concerns:

1) I don't think combining Pontiac/GMC with Chevrolet would be creating more products for the sales channel. Most of Pontiac's lineup and all of GMC's lineup would actually reduce the number of products sold under the Chevrolet brand. The actual number of increased products is 2: the LeMans and GTO (the Grand Prix would essentially replace the FWD Impala as the flagship sedan for the sales channel). Even if combining the 3 brands would result in a marginal increase in products, shouldn't this sales channel have the most products anyway since it is the corporation's volume network? Another reason that I chose to combine Pontiac with Chevrolet is that Pontiac's products would get the maximum amount of exposure by simply being included in GM's largest dealership base. I also believe that the affordable performance sub-brand (Pontiac) should be paired with the affordable volume division (Chevrolet).

2) I can appreciate and understand your counterpoint to my suggestion of moving the Corvette and Camaro under the Pontiac brand. Actually this move would affect the Camaro much more than it would the Corvette. The Corvette has its own distinct badging if I remember correctly; neither the Chevy gold tie badge or name appear anywhere on the car. Chevy simply serves as a designated outlet for the vehicle. All I basically did was change the outlet. No physical changes would need to be made to the Corvette and it would still appear in the same showrooms, it would just be grouped with and sold under Pontiac's affordable performance banner. I do admit that my plan to develop the next gen Alpha based Camaro as a Pontiac Trans Am instead would be a little trickier to pull off. I wouldn't make the change until the Alpha based product was ready for production; the Zeta based Camaro would remain a Camaro for the full length of its model cycle. I don't know if waiting until the model cycle change would make the transition any easier for enthusiasts. The way I look at it is the benefits of having this product be a part of Pontiac's transformation into a true RWD affordable performance sub-brand far outweighs the disadvantages of not badging the next gen Alpha based car as a Chevrolet Camaro. If GM were to decide to make Pontiac the corporation's RWD affordable performance sub-brand, then it seems only natural that the Corvette and Alpha based sports coupe be included in Pontiac's lineup. I'm not suggesting this move to alienate enthusiasts; I am simply trying to keep the brands as clearly defined and relevant as possible. Chevy would be all about affordable mainstream products (FWD cars and crossovers) while Pontiac would be about affordable performance (RWD cars).

3) I didn't neglect or forget a Mini-competitor for Pontiac. I chose not to give Pontiac this product. Pontiac's mission should stay pure and not be diluted with FWD based products. Besides, Pontiac is supposed to represent RWD based affordable performance. This is in direct contrast to Mini, which is more of a FWD based premium small vehicle brand. To me, Saab would be the natural choice for a Mini-competitor. It's a native Euro premium brand that specializes in FWD/AWD vehicles.

I enjoyed exchanging thoughts and ideas with you. I fully respect your point of view and where you are coming from with your counterpoints. I provided the above responses just to give you a little more insight into why I made my initial decisions. To me, the exchange of ideas on this forum proves that there are many viable options GM could pursue to improve its North American operations. The corporation just needs to be brave enough to form and adhere to some clear and coherent overall plans and product strategies for its divisions.

[Camino LS6]

Thanks for the feedback.

I do have some replies and responses to your concerns:

1) I don't think combining Pontiac/GMC with Chevrolet would be creating more products for the sales channel. Most of Pontiac's lineup and all of GMC's lineup would actually reduce the number of products sold under the Chevrolet brand. The actual number of increased products is 2: the LeMans and GTO (the Grand Prix would essentially replace the FWD Impala as the flagship sedan for the sales channel). Even if combining the 3 brands would result in a marginal increase in products, shouldn't this sales channel have the most products anyway since it is the corporation's volume network? Another reason that I chose to combine Pontiac with Chevrolet is that Pontiac's products would get the maximum amount of exposure by simply being included in GM's largest dealership base. I also believe that the affordable performance sub-brand (Pontiac) should be paired with the affordable volume division (Chevrolet).

2) I can appreciate and understand your counterpoint to my suggestion of moving the Corvette and Camaro under the Pontiac brand. Actually this move would affect the Camaro much more than it would the Corvette. The Corvette has its own distinct badging if I remember correctly; neither the Chevy gold tie badge or name appear anywhere on the car. Chevy simply serves as a designated outlet for the vehicle. All I basically did was change the outlet. No physical changes would need to be made to the Corvette and it would still appear in the same showrooms, it would just be grouped with and sold under Pontiac's affordable performance banner. I do admit that my plan to develop the next gen Alpha based Camaro as a Pontiac Trans Am instead would be a little trickier to pull off. I wouldn't make the change until the Alpha based product was ready for production; the Zeta based Camaro would remain a Camaro for the full length of its model cycle. I don't know if waiting until the model cycle change would make the transition any easier for enthusiasts. The way I look at it is the benefits of having this product be a part of Pontiac's transformation into a true RWD affordable performance sub-brand far outweighs the disadvantages of not badging the next gen Alpha based car as a Chevrolet Camaro. If GM were to decide to make Pontiac the corporation's RWD affordable performance sub-brand, then it seems only natural that the Corvette and Alpha based sports coupe be included in Pontiac's lineup. I'm not suggesting this move to alienate enthusiasts; I am simply trying to keep the brands as clearly defined and relevant as possible. Chevy would be all about affordable mainstream products (FWD cars and crossovers) while Pontiac would be about affordable performance (RWD cars).

3) I didn't neglect or forget a Mini-competitor for Pontiac. I chose not to give Pontiac this product. Pontiac's mission should stay pure and not be diluted with FWD based products. Besides, Pontiac is supposed to represent RWD based affordable performance. This is in direct contrast to Mini, which is more of a FWD based premium small vehicle brand. To me, Saab would be the natural choice for a Mini-competitor. It's a native Euro premium brand that specializes in FWD/AWD vehicles.

I enjoyed exchanging thoughts and ideas with you. I fully respect your point of view and where you are coming from with your counterpoints. I provided the above responses just to give you a little more insight into why I made my initial decisions. To me, the exchange of ideas on this forum proves that there are many viable options GM could pursue to improve its North American operations. The corporation just needs to be brave enough to form and adhere to some clear and coherent overall plans and product strategies for its divisions.

Thanks for the response, I have enjoyed reading your ideas as well. Though we may disagree on the methodology, it is clear that the sort of bold action we both endorse is desperately needed at GM.

The basic difference in philosophy here is likely that I see BPG (and a Saturn sub brand) as an alternative to Chevy. I think that this sales channel could be as complete as, and yet different than, Chevrolet. That way, both a Chevy or BPG store would be able to cover most market segments. That would allow greater distance between GM dealerships while maintaining the availability of cars and trucks to cover most all wants and needs of the consumer. The differences in coverage of the segments could emphasize brand definition.

Example:

Chevy gets the Volt, but Pontiac gets an E-flex sport coupe that looks and performs like a Tesla for less than half the price.

I'd love to flesh this out a bit more, but I'm out of time for now.

[ToniCipriani]

Thanks for the response, I have enjoyed reading your ideas as well. Though we may disagree on the methodology, it is clear that the sort of bold action we both endorse is desperately needed at GM.

The basic difference in philosophy here is likely that I see BPG (and a Saturn sub brand) as an alternative to Chevy. I think that this sales channel could be as complete as, and yet different than, Chevrolet. That way, both a Chevy or BPG store would be able to cover most market segments. That would allow greater distance between GM dealerships while maintaining the availability of cars and trucks to cover most all wants and needs of the consumer. The differences in coverage of the segments could emphasize brand definition.

Example:

Chevy gets the Volt, but Pontiac gets an E-flex sport coupe that looks and performs like a Tesla for less than half the price.

I'd love to flesh this out a bit more, but I'm out of time for now.

Love that idea, except I don't see it happening, at least until the Volt reaches its economies of scale.

[Camino LS6]

Love that idea, except I don't see it happening, at least until the Volt reaches its economies of scale.

Other E-flex varaints are how the Volt will reach economies of scale.

The way I hear it, an Opel minivan is next.

[ToniCipriani]

Flextreme?

[daves87rs]

Other E-flex varaints are how the Volt will reach economies of scale.

The way I hear it, an Opel minivan is next.

I like how that works...

[Camino LS6]

I like how that works...

Well, GM has said that that is the plan for E-flex.

A plan that they should have applied elsewhere a bit more often.