If GM decides to kill/emasculate Pontiac...

[Camino LS6]

...how will that affect your relationship with GM as a whole?

For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

What I'll be left with is old GM cars and possibly an occasional Chevy that I'll be interested in.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

[Satty]

If GM decides to discontinue Pontiac as a brand name, I'll be unaffected. Just like when Sony discontinued the Aiwa, I can get the same damned thing under a different name.

[Sixty8panther]

...how will that affect your relationship with GM as a whole?

For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

What I'll be left with is old GM cars and possibly an occasional Chevy that I'll be interested in.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

Between the lack of any great Buick cars, Cadillac's compete idiocy

regarding many things FWD, b-pillar, DTS & Sixteen related, coupled

with the death of brand that is VERY close to my heart, I'd be 100

percent with you 'Camino!

[Sixty8panther]

lest I forget the dropping of the ball on RWD (Zeta) for over a decade, and now

we have but one, under the banner that is in jeopardy no less..

Satty:

Your comment is ignorant & you know better.... if Pontiac lived up to its

potential & intent as a brand it would eclipse Chevrolet & Buick like a

doomsday asteroid.

[siegen]

Ponti-what?

[Satty]

What is Pontiac's potential? Their dealer network is smaller than Chevy, so the brand is not going to pass the Big Dog in sales. In a world with stop lights every quarter mile and poorly maintained highways, people will put comfort over performance. With gas prices fluctuating and the dollar losing value, people will take efficiency into account when car shopping. The market isn't there for the Pontiac that people on C&G think we should have. And I haven't even mentioned insurance rates. Performance cars aren't going to sell the way they did back in the day, you're never going to see a million Mustangs sold in 18 months again. You're probably going to see a million Camrys or Malibus sold in that time frame someday. Pontiac's best chance to survive is to just be a hanger-oner. If Buick and GMC are strong, Pontiac can hang around and take up a corner of the showroom with models like the Solstice (very limited market) and G8 (limited importation capacity) that can fill the "excitement" niche.

[Camino LS6]

What is Pontiac's potential? Their dealer network is smaller than Chevy, so the brand is not going to pass the Big Dog in sales. In a world with stop lights every quarter mile and poorly maintained highways, people will put comfort over performance. With gas prices fluctuating and the dollar losing value, people will take efficiency into account when car shopping. The market isn't there for the Pontiac that people on C&G think we should have. And I haven't even mentioned insurance rates. Performance cars aren't going to sell the way they did back in the day, you're never going to see a million Mustangs sold in 18 months again. You're probably going to see a million Camrys or Malibus sold in that time frame someday. Pontiac's best chance to survive is to just be a hanger-oner. If Buick and GMC are strong, Pontiac can hang around and take up a corner of the showroom with models like the Solstice (very limited market) and G8 (limited importation capacity) that can fill the "excitement" niche.

The potential? Much bigger than that of Saturn.

The rest of your post is just sweeping generalizations with an urban bias.

You don't think a Pontiac "Mini" would sell?

Or a Pontiac "3 series"?

Or an e-flex sportscar?

Performance can come in many forms, but at GM, it should come from Pontiac.

[Sixty8panther]

Wow Satty... spoken like a true enthusiast.

In 2002 GM killed off the F-body and insisted that "there is no more market for sporty 2-door cars"

And your tirade sounds about as accurate. You probably used the words "NEVER" and "CAMARO"

in the same sentence back then too.

I'm so sick of this "sky is falling" mentality towards anything without a 'hybrid' emblem.

Nothing is more of a drag than a can't do attitude.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Sixty8panther

[Camino LS6]

Wow Satty... spoken like a true enthusiast.

In 2002 GM killed off the F-body and insisted that "there is no more market for sporty 2-door cars"

And your tirade sounds about as accurate. You probably used the words "NEVER" and "CAMARO"

in the same sentence back then too.

I'm so sick of this "sky is falling" mentality towards anything without a 'hybrid' emblem.

Nothing is more of a drag than a can't do attitude.

It is the same sort of "failure mentality" that created Saturn in the first place.

If followed, the results will be the same.

[Sixty8panther]

Camino, you don;t get it.... performance does not sell with a small dealer network.

That is why BMW, Porsche and Audi all have dealer networks larger than GM's and

Ford's combined.

Any Chrysler executive will tell you more dealerships = more profits.

[Satty]

A MINI-competitor can come from any brand. Same with an Alpha 3er competitor. Thats my point, there is no Pontiac. There is no Chevy. There is no Saturn. They're all GMs wearing different clothes.

[Camino LS6]

Camino, you don;t get it.... performance does not sell with a small dealer network.

That is why BMW, Porsche and Audi all have dealer networks larger than GM's and

Ford's combined.

Any Chrysler executive will tell you more dealerships = more profits.

[Camino LS6]

A MINI-competitor can come from any brand. Same with an Alpha 3er competitor. Thats my point, there is no Pontiac. There is no Chevy. There is no Saturn. They're all GMs wearing different clothes.

And there must be a Pontiac, a Chevy, a Saturn, etc. or GM is doomed.

It's define the brands or die.

[Camino LS6]

Slowly folding Saturn into Buick might make sense, but pitting Saturn against Pontiac is pointless.

They are like apples and oranges and should be even moreso in the future. Going generic FWD with Pontiac is pure foolishness.

Killing the brand is equally foolish.

[REDO1GPGT]

For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

I'm in the same boat, in my lifetime you will never catch me shopping for a Saturn, Buick, Saab, or GMC. Chevrolet is unlikey too with the exception of the Camaro and possibly Corvette; Cadillac will be out of my price range in the short run. So once the G8 departs and the (additional) rebadges keep coming GM will be out of the running. I can't help but feel negatively towards GM for what they have done (and not done) to Pontiac, which drives me to buy non-GM in spite.

[Camino LS6]

I'm in the same boat, in my lifetime you will never catch me shopping for a Saturn, Buick, Saab, or GMC. Chevrolet is unlikey too with the exception of the Camaro and possibly Corvette; Cadillac will be out of my price range in the short run. So once the G8 departs and the (additional) rebadges keep coming GM will be out of the running. I can't help but feel negatively towards GM for what they have done (and not done) to Pontiac, which drives me to buy non-GM in spite.

The sad part is that, in the end, it will be remembered as what GM did to itself.

[Drew Dowdell]

I felt the same with the death of Oldsmobile, and I'll never forgive them for it.... but the first gen CTS was a nice consolation prize.

[Camino LS6]

Except for me there is no sign of a consolation prize.

[Sixty8panther]

Except for me there is no sign of a consolation prize.

F%$# no.

Not this time... if GM really does ''euthanize" Pontiac

(just the though makes me sick ot my stomach)

then the consolation prize will be some Daewoo POS

rebadged as a chevy.

[Oracle of Delphi]

A MINI-competitor can come from any brand. Same with an Alpha 3er competitor. Thats my point, there is no Pontiac. There is no Chevy. There is no Saturn. They're all GMs wearing different clothes.

Oh finally, someone who understands the inner workings of GM.

Who disturbs the Great Divisions of GM? (Picture the Wizard of Oz here) Pay no attention to the GME man behind the curtain.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[saturnd00d]

What is Pontiac's potential? Their dealer network is smaller than Chevy, so the brand is not going to pass the Big Dog in sales. In a world with stop lights every quarter mile and poorly maintained highways, people will put comfort over performance. With gas prices fluctuating and the dollar losing value, people will take efficiency into account when car shopping. The market isn't there for the Pontiac that people on C&G think we should have. And I haven't even mentioned insurance rates. Performance cars aren't going to sell the way they did back in the day, you're never going to see a million Mustangs sold in 18 months again. You're probably going to see a million Camrys or Malibus sold in that time frame someday. Pontiac's best chance to survive is to just be a hanger-oner. If Buick and GMC are strong, Pontiac can hang around and take up a corner of the showroom with models like the Solstice (very limited market) and G8 (limited importation capacity) that can fill the "excitement" niche.

It looks like I'm not alone in this.

Everyone on here talks up a big game, but when it comes down to it, more and more people will be shopping for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. Canada differentiates from the U.S. in this way. Up here, we have accepted smaller cars moreso than in the U.S. so in trying times such as these, we, as a country, aren't feeling as though we are giving up everything we love about the big American car and "settling" with smaller cars, such as our American brethren.

Pontiac, for what it's worth, was a great division up until recently. Unfortunately, it's fallen into defeat by the state of the economy, and future trying economic times. GM isn't the only corporation to fall into such drastic decision making, it's happening all over. As Satty has said, you won't ever see sales of a million mustangs in 18 months, but someday you might see that from a camry or malibu. I think this to be true as well. It's just a sign of the times, and if we don't like it, well, that's just too bad for us. If any of you would like to front the bill to save a division, by all means, help GM out. It's funny that you all expect GM as a corporation to hold onto a heritage division that there's no longer a market for, while at the same time trying to acrue some much-needed assets. You have to realize that there's less cost to GM (at this point in time) to expend Pontiac, than Saturn. If you want to be pissed about it, so be it, but that's the situation they find themselves in, self-inflicted or not.

[Camino LS6]

It looks like I'm not alone in this.

Everyone on here talks up a big game, but when it comes down to it, more and more people will be shopping for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. Canada differentiates from the U.S. in this way. Up here, we have accepted smaller cars moreso than in the U.S. so in trying times such as these, we, as a country, aren't feeling as though we are giving up everything we love about the big American car and "settling" with smaller cars, such as our American brethren.

Pontiac, for what it's worth, was a great division up until recently. Unfortunately, it's fallen into defeat by the state of the economy, and future trying economic times. GM isn't the only corporation to fall into such drastic decision making, it's happening all over. As Satty has said, you won't ever see sales of a million mustangs in 18 months, but someday you might see that from a camry or malibu. I think this to be true as well. It's just a sign of the times, and if we don't like it, well, that's just too bad for us. If any of you would like to front the bill to save a division, by all means, help GM out. It's funny that you all expect GM as a corporation to hold onto a heritage division that there's no longer a market for, while at the same time trying to acrue some much-needed assets. You have to realize that there's less cost to GM (at this point in time) to expend Pontiac, than Saturn. If you want to be pissed about it, so be it, but that's the situation they find themselves in, self-inflicted or not.

Again way off, check the difference in market share between Pontiac and Saturn. And as for efficiency, it need not be boring (or tiny). Cars already on the market prove that. An all small FWD lineup at Pontiac would be entirely redundant within the GM universe - something I thought we all agreed needed to be avoided. Isn't Pontiac GM's strongest selling brand in Canada?

As for me - no tiny cars ever, no matter the cost of fuel.

[Camino LS6]

Oh finally, someone who understands the inner workings of GM.

Who disturbs the Great Divisions of GM? (Picture the Wizard of Oz here) Pay no attention to the GME man behind the curtain.

An apt comparison.

After all, wasn't the Wizard of Oz eventually exposed as a fraud and a fool? :AH-HA_wink:

[BigPontiac]

I think GM is wasting an opportunity with Pontiac -- I think they could easily build the brand around a single RWD 3-series sized car with coupe, convertible, sedan and wagon variants -- applying 4 and 6 cylinder power plants and manual and automatic transmissions across the line. Optional AWD as well with both transmission choices. Seeking out new, profitable niches would appear to me to be a better strategy than trying to drive incremental volume on cars that are clones of existing models with no differentiation. Figure out what people are willing to PAY a PREMIUM for and build it. A small FWD "pocket rocket" in the vein of the GTI or Mini Cooper could also be slotted in below this RWD line-up with the G8 and G8 ST above it. Simple.

Given the current economic climate, Cadillac's ascent upmarket may be ill timed.

[Satty]

A small, RWD/opt. AWD/coupe/sedan/convertible/wagon/4 cyl./turbo 4cyl./6 cyl/manual/automatic would cost money that GM simply doesn't have. How many 3-Series did BMW sell last year? Not just in the U.S. but worldwide? The cost would have to be spread out, Pontiac isn't a world brand and U.S. sales wouldn't be high enough to justify that kind of investment. So why wouldn't they just take this car and give it to Buick or Cadillac, both of which have a presence in China, which is a huge market?

[Camino LS6]

I think GM is wasting an opportunity with Pontiac -- I think they could easily build the brand around a single RWD 3-series sized car with coupe, convertible, sedan and wagon variants -- applying 4 and 6 cylinder power plants and manual and automatic transmissions across the line. Optional AWD as well with both transmission choices. Seeking out new, profitable niches would appear to me to be a better strategy than trying to drive incremental volume on cars that are clones of existing models with no differentiation. Figure out what people are willing to PAY a PREMIUM for and build it. A small FWD "pocket rocket" in the vein of the GTI or Mini Cooper could also be slotted in below this RWD line-up with the G8 and G8 ST above it. Simple.

Given the current economic climate, Cadillac's ascent upmarket may be ill timed.

Exactly!

[Camino LS6]

A small, RWD/opt. AWD/coupe/sedan/convertible/wagon/4 cyl./turbo 4cyl./6 cyl/manual/automatic would cost money that GM simply doesn't have. How many 3-Series did BMW sell last year? Not just in the U.S. but worldwide? The cost would have to be spread out, Pontiac isn't a world brand and U.S. sales wouldn't be high enough to justify that kind of investment. So why wouldn't they just take this car and give it to Buick or Cadillac, both of which have a presence in China, which is a huge market?

So let Caddy have a bling version here and in Europe, with a Buick version in China.

Problem solved.

EDIT: and a Torana for Holden, a Vauxhall for the Brits, and a Chevy for the Middle East.

[Oracle of Delphi]

An apt comparison.

After all, wasn't the Wizard of Oz eventually exposed as a fraud and a fool? :AH-HA_wink:

Ahh, but it was the man behind the curtain who actually showed Dorothy how to get back home to what really mattered. He put her back on track as it were. Remember Camino, click your heels 3 times and repeat, "There is no place like home, There is no place Like home, There is no place like home.".

[Camino LS6]

Ahh, but it was the man behind the curtain who actually showed Dorothy how to get back home to what really mattered. He put her back on track as it were. Remember Camino, click your heels 3 times and repeat, "There is no place like home, There is no place Like home, There is no place like home.".

BFD, he helped a little girl (guilt?)

I can find my own way home.

[Sixty8panther]

It was the losers and idiots at GM (E) that LOST their way, not us the consumers.

1977 --- GM downsized the B-bodies --- market share fell

1980s --- GM started pumping out FWD econo-boxes like hotcakes --- market share fell

1988 --- GM KILLED midsize RWD by replacing the G-bodies with the Wrong wheel Drive Ws --- market share fell

1996 --- GM KILLED mainstream RWD by killing the B-bodies --- market share fell

notice a pattern?

[Camino LS6]

I have some words for the proposed all FWD, all small sedan idea for Pontiac's future:

Redundancy

Sabotage

Incompetence

Malpractice

Myopia

[Sixty8panther]

I've said it before, these things are cyclical.

Right now it's 1974 again... and gm is putting all of its eggs in the VEGA basket.

[Satty]

So let Caddy have a bling version here and in Europe, with a Buick version in China.

Problem solved.

EDIT: and a Torana for Holden, a Vauxhall for the Brits, and a Chevy for the Middle East.

Or, consolidate things and call it a Buick or Caddy worldwide.

[Camino LS6]

I've said it before, these things are cyclical.

Right now it's 1974 again... and gm is putting all of its eggs in the VEGA basket.

Again.

BTW: The Vega was around before '74, but I get your meaning.

Makes me think of the awful X-cars more than the Vega anyway.

[Camino LS6]

Or, consolidate things and call it a Buick or Caddy worldwide.

With what gain?

Offending your customers on several continents and maximizing overlap?

Buick is way too close to Caddy for that to make any sense at all.

The way I laid it out, it is a world product with no overlap.

Care to place a bet on which plan makes more profit?

[smk4565]

I don't care if Pontiac gets killed, they are mostly making rental cars now anyway. They probably should kill the brand or make them rental car only with 3 models. I'd rather see them make better Cadillacs and Chevrolets than to keep wasting dollars on G3's and G5's no matter how incremental the cost to do it.

Cadillac has to go up market to where they should have been all along, GM needs Cadillac as a symbol of greatness for American cars. Many people have an image/perception that American cars are unreliable junk made of plastic that have poor handling. Cadillac needs to get to Mercedes level pricing and restore the lost image of American cars. Cadillac is the last brand that can do it, Chrysler can't, Lincoln can't, it's Cadillac or nothing.

[Camino LS6]

Another thing that annoys me about all of this is the criticism of Pontiac as a NorthAmerican-only brand.

I'd market that as a strength, not a weakness!

I like the idea of a GM brand that is exclusive to the market I live in.

It is a serious potential appeal that GM has been ignoring.

[Camino LS6]

I don't care if Pontiac gets killed, they are mostly making rental cars now anyway. They probably should kill the brand or make them rental car only with 3 models. I'd rather see them make better Cadillacs and Chevrolets than to keep wasting dollars on G3's and G5's no matter how incremental the cost to do it.

Cadillac has to go up market to where they should have been all along, GM needs Cadillac as a symbol of greatness for American cars. Many people have an image/perception that American cars are unreliable junk made of plastic that have poor handling. Cadillac needs to get to Mercedes level pricing and restore the lost image of American cars. Cadillac is the last brand that can do it, Chrysler can't, Lincoln can't, it's Cadillac or nothing.

There's that failure mentality again.

The surrender monkey syndrome at work.

[Camino LS6]

This sort of one-size-fits-all, blandness in product planning is doomed.

[ehaase]

It was the losers and idiots at GM (E) that LOST their way, not us the consumers.

1977 --- GM downsized the B-bodies --- market share fell

The downsized 1977 B bodies were a smash hit.

[daves87rs]

Ah, another death post.

What you guys fail to see is that maybe-a few years ago this all would have mattered.

The game now has completely changed-not with just GM, but other automakers as well.

Cars in the near future will be no where near what you see now.

As a whole, less people are going to care how fast their car goes, as long as it is affordable and gets you from point A to B.

Some people will still want that choice, but are going to pay quite a premuim for that.....

GM can see that big picture, and most of you do not.

You only have to see how fast the "ricer" trend is fading to see that there are less car lovers out there everyday.

More people every day worry about keeping their house, and less on what they are driving.......

I think Pontiac will still be here, but expect some bumpy times ahead..........

New Tech is more important than fast cars...for now.

*grabs flame suit*

[Camino LS6]

Bull$h!.

[daves87rs]

This sort of one-size-fits-all, blandness in product planning is doomed.

Well, than I 'm not sure what to tell ya......

And this gloom is going to be everywhere, not just at GM...

[daves87rs]

Bull$h!.

What part of "we are going to be in a period of change" are you missing, Camino?

When all this new Tech "bull$h!" gets affordable, then I can see fun and faster cars coming back...

Like it or not, it's going to be a flashback to the 80s again....

You can thank big oil and the greenies for that one........

[Sixty8panther]

Camino... you're absolutely right. Citation would have been a better description.

Between the Vega's mini-70-Camaro styling and the fact it was RWD ,not to

mention the Cosworth connection, it was way more car (for its day) than

the GM(E)-Daewoo crap that G is trying to put lipstick on right now.

[balthazar]

Idle thoughts~

The relatively lame show 'Gearz' on Speed this morning did an interesting retrospect. They narrated a brief recap of the mid '70s, centric to the new cars available, showing quick commercial clips of such pulse-quickening cars as the Pacer & Opel, then mentioned as how the muscle car was gone & most 'car guys' were almost looked down apon for valuing performance & performance cars. They were undoubtedly dark days for car enthusiasts.

The flip side was a lead-in to the unbridaled fun that was Smokey & the Bandit (and the Year One Bandit III).

It struck me we're witnessing a replay of a very similar scenario, esp WRT Pontiac. Of course by '77 when Smokey came out, the T/A was already in the lineup with all the hardware in place & it was the last performance car available. But a refreshing along with it's placement in S&TB had the Firebird line selling 211K by '79.

Today is slightly different, in that there's no money and no one in management cares for the potential of Pontiac anymore, but that aside, with the economy looking to be in the dumper for at least a year or 3, and the swell of marketshare for puddlejumpers... a really well packaged -say- Kappa-based 4-place Pontiac, along with the right pop culture nudge, could really pop after a span of years where people are forcing themselves into cars they feel they 'need' vs what they want. Pontiac is exactly type of division to reinject fun into what's going to be a stressful, compromised period of car buying.

[Oracle of Delphi]

a really well packaged -say- Kappa-based 4-place Pontiac, along with the right pop culture nudge, could really pop after a span of years where people are forcing themselves into cars they feel they 'need' vs what they want. Pontiac is exactly type of division to reinject fun into what's going to be a stressful, compromised period of car buying.

You do know that there won't be a Kappa platform after 2011/2012 model year, don't you?

[Robert Hall]

You do know that there won't be a Kappa platform after 2011/2012 model year, don't you?

With nothing replacing it but more FWD BS?

[daves87rs]

You do know that there won't be a Kappa platform after 2011/2012 model year, don't you?

[daves87rs]

With nothing replacing it but more FWD BS?

I'm going to assume it will be replaced by NOTHING.