Pontiac Defends The G3 Insertion Into The Lineup

[gm4life]

If Pontiac dies I know alot of people who will be done with GM even if they buy Chevrolet's or have ever owned a Pontiac or desire to own one again. Look at it this way Pontiac in 1963 had a Tempest was that an exciting or overtly sporty car? No but Pontiac did take a boring Tempest are create a GTO with a monster motor in it. Pontiac was always about being a little sportier than Chevrolet and they still are today... Case in point Equinox-Torrent, Cobalt-G5, HHR-Vibe, Impala-G8 (I know its RWD) and so on and so forth. Pontiac has a heritage Saturn will never have, and still has more volume than Saturn with all there new Opel products. Need I remind you that the Aura was new for 2007, Astra 2008, Outlook 2007, Vue 2008, Sky 2006... As for Pontiac 2005 G6, 2005 G5 (I knew it was in Canada so it was an old design), 2006 Torrent, 2006 Solstice, 2008 G8, 2009 Vibe and who has an older line-up? Pontiac and the volume model the G6 is four years old and sells nicely even without fleet sales.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It makes perfect sense, because you get rid of a brand without killing the sales channel, and you save millions by not shutting that sales channel down.

I can see your point in that it would eliminate the Saturn arm of the sales channels without having to buy out the Saturn dealers. But what is the share and product benefit? Saturn pulls what, 2% or less of market share a year? 1) Your going to wipe out VERY VALUABLE market share either way, especially closing GM's second best selling division (Fleet or not) That share is basically a "Here ya go, take it on us" gift to the asian competitors. 2) Even if you weren't looking to shed share, by trimming the 2% that the saturn dealers bring to the table, you still have a HUGE brand portfolio battling for "on a good day, 20% of share" (<--- A defeatist attitude in and of itself)

And then what of the dealers? Do you think they're going to settle for less volume? These are the same dealers that OPENLY advocate and fight for GM clone models. (Canyon, G5, G3) What happens to Opels image when it has to start selling Opel G3s and Opel G5s?

Launching the Opel name alone in North America will probably wipe out any savings from killing a bunch of 're-badged' Pontiacs.

I'm sorry PCS. I don't mean half of what I say to be taken personally, I hope you realize that. But this kind of backwards thinking is what is killing GM. This kind of backwards thinking is what led to the CREATION of Saturn at the expense of the core divisions in the first place. It's almost as if GM expects to cut the engine out of the car and then try to drive into town faster. It makes no sense.

GMNA has to many brands, in a market, that on a good day is only 20% of that market. GM has 3 major car sales channels in North America, Cadillac, Chevrolet and BPG, by retiring Pontiac and moving Opel in, you strengthen the old BPG sales channel by changing it to BOG and offering a European arm into that sales channel, the sales channel survives stronger that it was before and offering a more varied MID/LUX product portfolio with a European flair. Let Chevrolet offer the entry level GMDAT cars and volume leading vehicles, while Cadillac offers American luxury to the world.

Revisited, how is this any different from a successful B/P/GMC channel? I mean, I'm assuming that CURRENTLY, people aren't willing to pay high enough transaction prices for GM to make any money off of Pontiacs. But the idea was that EVENTUALLY, once the Pontiac Buick GMC channel was re-established (Remember, this channel was never supposed to be VOLUME per se) it WOULD be a mid-lux, more specialized sales channel. That was the whole idea behind products like the Enclave, the Denalis and plans like an all RWD, performance based Pontiac division.

Even if GM did introduce Saturn/Opel into the channel at the expense of Pontiac, who's to say the buyer would pay 'premium' prices for those cars anyway? Most consumers either 1) Don't know the Opel brand 2) Remember it as a cheap, undesirable option from 30+ years ago or 3) would just consider it a Saturn in spirit (especially in light of the name change) and be unwilling to pay premiums for it.

Remember, Saturn, once the maker of 'Rubermaid' cars (and not too long ago, either) is having just as hard of a time pulling 'premium' transaction prices as Pontiac is.

How about this; I'll run with your Buick/Saturn/GMC channel idea... But then, now that the channel has the volume it needs and Saturn has the growth it needs, why not make Pontiac a focused 2-3 car performance division and team it up with select Chevy dealers? Chevy and Pontiac share the same demographics, the dealer network is already strong and a performance Pontiac line would complement the Corvette and Camaro nicely.

Think of it in the same sense as you think of the old "Chevy & Corvette" dealers, except Pontiac, while premium to Chevy, wouldn't be premium to the Corvette like Corvette was to Chevy

Edited September 29, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Oracle of Delphi]

Both Pontiac and Saturn would go, Pontiac would be retired and the Saturn name would be retired in favor of the Opel name. Remember, I would get rid of anything in the old Saturn lineup that wasn't in the Opel lineup. Outlook would go, Aura changed to Insignia (perhaps just a 5 door hatchback, think Opel Chevy Maxx and a wagon version), as to not compete with the 4 door Buick EP II. But also offer Opel OPC variants with a more sporty feel (see my sig for OPC). The Opel lineup in BOG would consist of Corsa, Tigra Twin Top, Combo, Meriva, Astra, Astra Caravan, Zafira, Sky name changed to Opel GT, and Vue name changed to Antara. 90% of these models would not compete with Buick and would offer North Americans choices they currently don't have.

I know your comments aren't aimed at me directly, I take it all in stride. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited September 29, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Chazman]

Both Pontiac and Saturn would go, Pontiac would be retired and the Saturn name would be retired in favor of the Opel name. Remember, I would get rid of anything in the old Saturn lineup that wasn't in the Opel lineup. Outlook would go, Aura changed to Insignia (perhaps just a 5 door hatchback, think Opel Chevy Maxx and a wagon version), as to not compete with the 4 door Buick EP II. But also offer Opel OPC variants with a more sporty feel (see my sig for OPC). The Opel lineup in BOG would consist of Corsa, Tigra Twin Top, Combo, Meriva, Astra, Astra Caravan, Zafira, Sky name changed to Opel GT, and Vue name changed to Antara. 90% of these models would not compete with Buick and would offer North Americans choices they currently don't have.

I know your comments aren't aimed at me directly, I take it all in stride. :AH-HA_wink:

In that scenario, what would happen to the freestanding Saturn dealerships? Would they be converted to freestanding Opel dealers?

[buyacargetacheck]

Even though I find the idea "neat and tidy," it's not gonna happen.

One, the Opel name in the US is meaningless. GM has shown that marketing brand awareness is not one of its strong suits. So, if they can't get Saturn off the ground after 20 years why would they expect to successfully launch and build up Opel?

Second, most of the European Opel lineup is irrelevant in its native form to the US market. The Opels that are relevant will be better off as Chevrolets (head-to-head with Ford).

Third, unless the BPG dealers are culled to Saturn levels GM will find itself expanding the number of new "Opel" dealerships to BPG levels. That puts GM in a deeper hole, expanding franchise agreements, and deeply committing itself to a brand that has little relevance to the US market.

Finally, Pontiac still sells a crapload of cars in North America. Pontiac has always been about adapting itself to the hot trend, which is fuel economy now. Pontiac is perfectly positioned to offer sporty economy like it has done many times in its past.

I will say that it makes sense to merge Saturn with BPG if GM commits to making Pontiac a 2 or 3 model performance lineup while returning Saturn to economy transportation (FWD B-cars and FWD C-cars). Somehow, GM would have to adopt Saturn's customer service standards (sans one-price sales) to BPG in the process.

Both Pontiac and Saturn would go, Pontiac would be retired and the Saturn name would be retired in favor of the Opel name. Remember, I would get rid of anything in the old Saturn lineup that wasn't in the Opel lineup. Outlook would go, Aura changed to Insignia (perhaps just a 5 door hatchback, think Opel Chevy Maxx and a wagon version), as to not compete with the 4 door Buick EP II. But also offer Opel OPC variants with a more sporty feel (see my sig for OPC). The Opel lineup in BOG would consist of Corsa, Tigra Twin Top, Combo, Meriva, Astra, Astra Caravan, Zafira, Sky name changed to Opel GT, and Vue name changed to Antara. 90% of these models would not compete with Buick and would offer North Americans choices they currently don't have.

I know your comments aren't aimed at me directly, I take it all in stride. :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

In that scenario, what would happen to the freestanding Saturn dealerships? Would they be converted to freestanding Opel dealers?

They would be offered the opportunity to join BOG, if they refused for whatever reason, they would be allowed to remain freestanding Opel dealerships. However they would increase their foot traffic by joining BOG and reduce their cost of running a standalone dealership too.

[ToniCipriani]

"Sad" doesn't begin to cover it. It would be outrageous, criminal and inexcusable for GM to kill Pontiac. They'll kill what's left of GMNA. They lost a big majority of Oldsmobile customers, never to return. Killing Pontiac would only further weaken their position. If GM management wants to run the company into the ground, let them, but I am not going down with the ship. f@#k GM if that's the case, seriously.

Sums up nicely, and I fall perfectly into that category of customers. One of the reasons I bought the G6 because I wanted an Alero.