Pontiac Defends The G3 Insertion Into The Lineup

[saturnd00d]

Agreed Satty.

On top of the obvious lack of money it would take to shut down Saturn, I would honestly like to see Pontiac shut down before Saturn, because I wouldn't want to see Pontiac re-imaged as the brand GM no longer cares about. They get re-badged leftovers like the G3, G5 and Torrent (yes I know Torrent is finally done with though), but lets think back to what Pontiac was about...performance. What does today's America need more than anything? Fuel efficiency. There is not enough consumer interest to support a brand made up of performance-oriented offerings (if GM restored Pontiac to what it used to be), so if it can't be what made it great, and since no one here would want to see it as re-badged division, what is it's purpose again? To have the name live forever? Kind of selfish if you ask me.

A division like Buick offers more of what I think consumers would want in that price range. Quality interiors, comfort, power and style. Pontiac was always about cheap power. These days people see a car and think "Sure this car has power, but that car has power and a better interior for equal money", in essence, they look for the better package. We all know that power isn't the only thing people shop for anymore. As I stated in my above posts, we're a different market in this day in age. Some things that were once relevant to more people, are now relevant to only few. It's about comfort and fuel efficiency these days, not raw power. The automaker that can offer those products with a comfortable pricetag in its target market, is the one who will net the most sales.

Let Pontiac die with some dignity, and please take Saab with it. I don't want to see their good names smeared in the mud any longer.

[Intrepidation]

The G8 would make a perfect Impala.

It's just ashame that 1.) GM has to this day no clue how to manage its brands beyond Chevrolet and to a lessor extent Cadillac, and 2.) Someone high up is playing favorites with the brands.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Dodgefan

[saturnd00d]

I thought the same thing, as it wouldn't fit well being a Buick...

[Robert Hall]

I think I've figured it out. It makes perfect sense. Saturn is the 'European influenced' brand what with the Opel-based models, and now Pontiac is going to be the 'Pacific Rim influenced' brand, with the Australian G8, Japanese Vibe, and now the Korean G3 !

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I appreciate that you are trying to remain positive about Pontiac's future,

+1

I also don't think PCS is being overly negative or pessimistic. He is obviously in a position to receive information about GM's future plans and is simply trying to warn us that Pontiac's future isn't very bright and definitely not what we would want it to be.

Maybe not. But I think PCS is a part of the brain trust that appears to be the problem for Pontiac instead of the solution.

[SAmadei]

By Some Loser

Mismanager, Pontiac Communications

Blah blah blah...

Blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah excellent fuel efficiency (27 mpg city, 34 mpg highway) blah blah blah blah

blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah, blah blahs.

34 mpg is not excellent fuel efficiency for something that small. It SUCKS.

The Cobalt XFE is claiming 34 mpg... and is twice the size. The Corolla gets 35 mpg and is even bigger. Yesh.

[Oracle of Delphi]

+1

Maybe not. But I think PCS is a part of the brain trust that appears to be the problem for Pontiac instead of the solution.

As always, I am innocent.

[CARBIZ]

34 mpg is not excellent fuel efficiency for something that small. It SUCKS.

The Cobalt XFE is claiming 34 mpg... and is twice the size. The Corolla gets 35 mpg and is even bigger. Yesh.

If you drive a 1.6 litre engine like you stole the car, of course your gas mileage is going to stink. People expect a certain degree of performance from their vehicles. The drivetrain can be tailored for whatever the marketing boys think the car needs. Case in point: the 3.4 in the older Impala (heavy, bigger) and the Alero/Grand Am. Same engine, same tranny, but the Alero/Grand AM has horrid fuel mileage; whereas the Impala was absolutely amazing.

Any 20 year old who buys a G3 because it is what he/she can 'afford' and then drive it like their daddy's Audi, is going to be in for quite a shock. Ditto for the Corolla.

[regfootball]

how saturn would be perceived differently if we had all the corsa, astra, insignia, and zafira models available in EU.

[Diehard GrandPrix Fan]

Since I left GM already since the current Pontiacs(once, my only favorite GM brand) are nothing more than Chevy crap re-badge and imports(with the exception of the Solstice, and current G6 that's to be replaced with another import soon), I just don't care if they closes or not. Surely, Pontiac and GM have succeeded in chasing me away from their future showrooms by killing all the 'DOMESTIC' masterpieces in place of the imported sh*ts and re-badged Chevy-crap leftovers. So, unless they bring back the AMERICAN made Grand Prix, Bonneville, even Firebird and GTO, I WANT them to close down, since I don't want to remember Pontiac as an import seller. Period. I just don't like what these clowns are doing these days pissing off of once a great brand that has heritage and history. I still think it was a mistake of killing Oldsmobile, and they are trying to REPEAT that same mistake again by shutting down Pontiac, so be it. I don't care anymore, since I already got my dream car that is a last breed of the true 'DOMESTIC' that was made in North America. Not some sh*tty Aussie import crap.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Diehard GrandPrix Fan

[Intrepidation]

Since I left GM already since the current Pontiacs(once, my only favorite GM brand) are nothing more than Chevy crap re-badge and imports(with the exception of the Solstice, and current G6 that's to be replaced with another import soon), I just don't care if they closes or not. Surely, Pontiac and GM have succeeded in chasing me away from their future showrooms by killing all the 'DOMESTIC' masterpieces in place of the imported sh*ts and re-badged Chevy-crap leftovers. So, unless they bring back the AMERICAN made Grand Prix, Bonneville, even Firebird and GTO, I WANT them to close down, since I don't want to remember Pontiac as an import seller. Period. I just don't like what these clowns are doing these days pissing off of once a great brand that has heritage and history. I still think it was a mistake of killing Oldsmobile, and they are trying to REPEAT that same mistake again by shutting down Pontiac, so be it. I don't care anymore, since I already got my dream car that is a last breed of the true 'DOMESTIC' that was made in North America. Not some sh*tty Aussie import crap.

I don't know how many times this has to be hammered in, but the G8 is a better car than anything Pontiac has had in decades.

[Camino LS6]

I don't know how many times this has to be hammered in, but the G8 is a better car than anything Pontiac has had in decades.

And a better car than Saab and Saturn have ever had.

Saab is useless in North America and Saturn is nothing but a classic case of throwing good money after bad. Saturn is, was, and always will be GM's worst mistake. It has cost us Oldsmobile, and if this current "plan" is followed, it may cost us Pontiac as well.

Saturn is a boat anchor dragging GM down.

[Intrepidation]

And a better car than Saab and Saturn have ever had.

Saab is useless in North America and Saturn is nothing but a classic case of throwing good money after bad. Saturn is, was, and always will be GM's worst mistake. It has cost us Oldsmobile, and if this current "plan" is followed, it may cost us Pontiac as well.

Saturn is a boat anchor dragging GM down.

GM's inability to manage its brands since the early 70's is what is dragging GM down IMHO. If GM knew how to manage the brands before it was cash-strapped, they could all have their place without competing with each other.

[saturnd00d]

Saab is useless in North America and Saturn is nothing but a classic case of throwing good money after bad. Saturn is, was, and always will be GM's worst mistake.

GM is GM's worst mistake.

Bad decision after bad decision after bad decision. That's what it boils down to. OK I get it, you don't like Saturn, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Here's mine.

What purpose would Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac and Chevy all serve in today's market? They all overlap. There is no need for slightly different variations of cars within the same automaker in today's market. I see it all as overhead cost that needs to be trimmed down. Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Buick, for the most part, are the same. Nothing substantiating differentiated them from eachother. They all shared engines and platforms, making it more of a choice of "Do I like the look of this car over that one, because they are otherwise identical". I woud like to see Buick injected with new life, as not everyone wants cadillac edginess or chevy boring, or saturn euro-feel. Pontiac, on the other hand, went from the excitement brand, to the brand that offers re-badges from Chevy, Toyota and Holden. But wait, they do have the solstice - a car with the same underpinnings as the Sky.

Lutz was good for a short time, bringing quality interiors and a few cool cars back into the GM fold, not to mention bringing some much-wanted ideas into the company, but his flavour seems to have worn off. He needs to be removed from the podium, along with Wagoner. Let's get someone in there willing to listen to what the public wants, rather than doing the things they THINK the public wants.

[gm4life]

Saturn killed Olds, I know it. I hate Saturn. Seriously if Saturn costs us Pontiac a brand that can get back to there glory with some work that is a bunch of $h!. The G8 even tho not made in NA is a true Pontiac is spirit, I love it and I am not a RWD guy. I say lets get through the tuff times and put some money into them giving then unique designs even if they share platforms GM can afford to do that.

[gm4life]

And a better car than Saab and Saturn have ever had.

Saab is useless in North America and Saturn is nothing but a classic case of throwing good money after bad. Saturn is, was, and always will be GM's worst mistake. It has cost us Oldsmobile, and if this current "plan" is followed, it may cost us Pontiac as well.

Saturn is a boat anchor dragging GM down.

I totally agree.

[saturnd00d]

Saturn didn't kill Olds at all, more like GM's decision making. Saturn was an experiment, and for the first few years it started doing well. If GM kept evolving Saturn based on it's philosophy, it would have kept turning a profit. Instead, they chose to starve their new division of R&D and marketing, and kept the same product for 11 years, except with minor refreshes. In the meantime, the japanese further advanced their lead to bring consumers a far superior car than Saturn's refreshed line could bring.

On the issue of Olds, again, what would a bran like Olds do in times like these? Your American economy is in a bad spot right now, the dollar is very weak, people are losing their jobs, houses and cars in the wake of a recession, but you want to keep a performance division around? It wasn't selling well even when the economy was decent.

These days, people are looking to squeeze by, so they turn to fuel efficient cars that can suit their needs. Performance isn't even in the cards these days. Why do you think Cadillac sales are in a slump? Not because the product is stale, but because that's not where the focus is these days.

Hate Saturn all you want, but I love the idea of driving an Opel-based vehicle over here in NA. My second car in 3-4 years time will be an 08 Astra. While it's not the quickest car in it's segment, it's definitely what appeals to me. It's decently quick with a manual, looks great, and handles wonderfully. I wouldn't ask for more than that personally.

But you can all hold onto your dreams of big, powerful RWD whatever cars to be parked in your driveways, Pontiac or otherwise. Sooner or later, the economy will catch up to you too, just as it has to everyone else already. Happy motoring.

[ocnblu]

Hahaha... WHEN did Saturn EVER turn a profit? NEVER! My mother owned two SL2s, a '92 and a '97. She liked her '92 better, but both were good cars for her. GM LOST THEIR OPPORTUNITY LONG AGO to keep Saturn relevant. Saturn is an albatross now as ever... a misguided experiment and a waste of money. The corporation would have been much better served to put that money into better J-cars for their core divisions, their legacy divisions, instead of this expensive diversion which has done nothing to further GM's cause, then, now or ever.

Customers liked Saturn when they were separate from GM... now that Saturn is just another GM division sharing platforms... they have lost any reason to exist. THAT Saturn customer has moved on from GM, and they haven't captured anyone new. They're finished!

Edited September 25, 2008 by ocnblu

[cire]

How many stand alone Saturn dealerships still exist? The one where I live shares a dealership with one other GM division and a minor Japanese brand. The reason I'm asking this is because I wonder how expensive it would be to pull Saturn into Buick/Pontiac/GMC. This would give GM a strong midmarket premium dealer network with Buick taking the lead. Buick should be the high profile player in this network because it has the most premium image of the 4 brands as well as excellent quality/reliability survey scores (not to mention its popularity in China). With Buick in the lead as the volume member of the network, Saturn, Pontiac, and GMC could be transformed into focused sub-brands to complement Buick. North American built versions of Opel products could be widely used to form or augment the lineups for Buick, Saturn, and Pontiac to save ground up development costs. The network's Opel based products would be differentiated by body style, badging, and grille design.

As the volume member, Buick would sell sedans, wagons, and crossovers. Saturn would serve as an entry sub-brand for the network with a lineup of sensible smaller vehicles consisting of hatchbacks and MPVs. Pontiac would be transformed into a coupe and/or coupe-cabrio niche brand. GMC would revert back to its traditional role of premium truck/SUV outlet.

This strategy would give GM an economical way to establish a strong midmarket premium division. It would help GM avoid the following issues:

1) Discontinuing brands. Each brand would have a distinct purpose and identity in the midmarket premium network.

2) Rebadged clones. Since Pontiac would have a lineup consisting mostly of rebadged Opel coupe-cabrios, GM would not need to create any more rebadged Chevy clone products for this division.

3) Overlapping models. Since each brand in this network would be assigned specific body styles, there would be no model overlap in this network.

GM could duplicate this setup for Opel and Buick in China. Opel of China would align with Saturn in North America and Buick of China would align with Buick/Pontiac in North America (Pontiac's products would need to be absorbed into Buick in the Chinese market since Pontiac doesn't exist there). This would provide GM a cost efficient way to provide their most popular brand in China (Buick) with a wide range of brand appropriate products. Since GM is already giving Buick of China a rebadged Insignia sedan, why not also give them the Astra sedan, Tigra "TwinTop" roadster, Astra "TwinTop" coupe, and Antara crossover?

This isn't the best case scenario for Pontiac, but I know GM is financially strapped and worried about upcoming CAFE regulations. I think a 3 car lineup consisting of a rebadged Tigra "TwinTop" roadster, a rebadged Astra "TwinTop" coupe, and either a restyled G6 coupe/coupe-cabrio (Insignia inspired front/end treatment and interior) or rebadged Insignia "TwinTop" coupe (if GM would develop one; I think the Insignia's styling would make a nice base for such a product) would be a brand appropriate future lineup for Pontiac. I would much rather see a RWD based affordable performance lineup instead (like many of you), but this doesn't seem to be in the cards for Pontiac (I don't expect to see a next gen G8 or Solstice, unfortunately). The alternative I proposed is still preferable to rebadged Chevy clones or total extinction.

PCS: You don't have to say it; I know it's not going to happen. It's just a suggestion.

[daves87rs]

How the heck did this turn into a topic here?

Don't get me started in what I think is a waste....

[SAmadei]

If you drive a 1.6 litre engine like you stole the car, of course your gas mileage is going to stink. People expect a certain degree of performance from their vehicles. The drivetrain can be tailored for whatever the marketing boys think the car needs. Case in point: the 3.4 in the older Impala (heavy, bigger) and the Alero/Grand Am. Same engine, same tranny, but the Alero/Grand AM has horrid fuel mileage; whereas the Impala was absolutely amazing.

Any 20 year old who buys a G3 because it is what he/she can 'afford' and then drive it like their daddy's Audi, is going to be in for quite a shock. Ditto for the Corolla.

These are the manufacturers' freeway numbers. 'Driving it like you stole it' applies to sub-50 mph jackrabbit acceleration and teeth-pulling stopping. On the freeway, doing a steady 70, these cars need to get closer to 40.

I'm sure when the companies tested these, trying to get the highest numbers possible, they drove them like you 103 year old great grand aunt Ethel.

BTW, I drive my girlfriends Corolla 'like it stole it'... and it still gets killer mileage _and_ doesn't fall apart flying over gigantic potholes. I can't figure out what magic Toyota put in this thing...

I still hate Toyotas, however.

My beater '95 Caprice wagon gets 19.5 mpg in the mix of freeway and top-fuel-stoplight drags I do. At $4 a gallon, 20K miles a year, that's $4K a year. The G3 would average about 30 mpg, giving it the benefit of the doubt. Again, 20K miles at $4 a gallon... $2.6K a year. $200 bucks a month is a premium I pay for size, safety, comfort and speed (yes, my Caprice is quite quick) and it's paid for. How much is the monthly payment on a G3?

Yeah, yeah, I know most people want a new car, blah blah... but even comparing the G3 to a G6, the mileage is not compelling, which is my point.

[saturnd00d]

Saturn is an albatross now as ever... a misguided experiment and a waste of money. The corporation would have been much better served to put that money into better J-cars for their core divisions, their legacy divisions, instead of this expensive diversion which has done nothing to further GM's cause, then, now or ever.

Better J cars? Legacy divisions? Do you hear yourself? Better yet, why hasn't anyone answered my questions yet in my previous posts? I would STILL like to know how anyone thinks GM could have differentiated Olds, Pontiac, Buick, CHevy in today's market? My point is that it was inevitable. Olds was axed because there was no further direction for them to follow. Today, no one looks for "budget performance" which seems to be what Pontiac has stood for throughout it's history, so it as well, should go. It's no longer needed. What Pontiac does offer right now at this point in time, can be better used in other divisions.

Customers liked Saturn when they were separate from GM... now that Saturn is just another GM division sharing platforms... they have lost any reason to exist. THAT Saturn customer has moved on from GM, and they haven't captured anyone new. They're finished!

Um, Saturn was never seperate from GM. They were always under that umbrella, whether or not people knew it. And really, doesn't it say much that people flocked to a brand like Saturn and not other "known" divisions of GM because they were looking for a different kind of manufacturer (not realizing Saturn was in the GM fold). Obviously GM failed to attract such people with it's "known brands" like Chevy, Pontiac, Geo, etc. Ocnblu, your statement about THE saturn customer who has moved away from GM and no one come back in it's place, well, that's B.S. I am a 3 time Saturn customer and I've enjoyed my experience with them quite a bit. People are starting to say they like the new products that are available through Saturn now. The cheap stigma is finally starting to wear off, so its just a matter of time before even more fresh faces enter the showrooms. Just because several on this board dislike Saturn because they think it was an experiment gone wrong, doesn't mean that Saturn would be any better not existing. Personally I think that, although not profitable as of yet, Saturn has done rather decent. If you take things into account like how it has a small percentage of dealer networks across Canada and the U.S. compared to GM's other divisions, the lack of ad dollars gone into Saturn's public perception (hey, you can have one great car on your hands, but if the public isn't aware it exists or is competitive, who's going to buy it?)

Saturn has, for the past 17 years, been the red-headed stepchild of GM. They were the sole reason the customer satisfaction ratings throughout all of GM's divisions have vastly improved (because everyone now follows Saturn's low-pressure sales tactics), they were the test-experiments for the rest of GM's product line (L-series created to introduce the Vectra to N/A, Aura to bring over newer Gen Vectra platform, Ion redline to iron out the kinks for Chevy's Cobalt SS/SC, Vue to introduce Theta chassis before Nox and Torrent). The list goes on.

You guys can say what you want about Saturn, but the truth is that without Saturn, I wouldn't have put my faith in GM as a company either, because I prefer to own smaller cars myself, and when the alternative to my original S-series was a cavalier or sunfire, I was going to otherwise end up at Honda. My purchase of an SC1 with it's great gas mileage, was what drew me back into the GM fold. I love driving my 08 Vue. Sure it's heavy, but it kills the nox and torrent in refinement, handling and overall driving characteristics. I can't wait to own an Astra when the time comes to get a second vehicle for my personal commute to work. The thought of it excites me. It's such a great little car, that, to me, re-energizes GM's small car segment. Personally, I couldn't care less about the cobalt and G5 since they were identical in feel to my previous ION. Good cars, but I want to move forward in my car buying decisions, not backwards.

Back to the topic at hand, the saving of the Pontiac brand, and why it wouldn't be cut out for today's consumer.

[gm4life]

Saturn has failed. GM screwed that brand up and has brought them in too close. If Pontiac goes to spare Saturn I will be so pissed. Pontiac sells so many more vehicles than Saturn and they have a bunch of rebadges. Where as Saturn gets Opels and they can't move them out the door.

[Camino LS6]

Better J cars? Legacy divisions? Do you hear yourself? Better yet, why hasn't anyone answered my questions yet in my previous posts? I would STILL like to know how anyone thinks GM could have differentiated Olds, Pontiac, Buick, CHevy in today's market? My point is that it was inevitable. Olds was axed because there was no further direction for them to follow. Today, no one looks for "budget performance" which seems to be what Pontiac has stood for throughout it's history, so it as well, should go. It's no longer needed. What Pontiac does offer right now at this point in time, can be better used in other divisions.

Um, Saturn was never seperate from GM. They were always under that umbrella, whether or not people knew it. And really, doesn't it say much that people flocked to a brand like Saturn and not other "known" divisions of GM because they were looking for a different kind of manufacturer (not realizing Saturn was in the GM fold). Obviously GM failed to attract such people with it's "known brands" like Chevy, Pontiac, Geo, etc. Ocnblu, your statement about THE saturn customer who has moved away from GM and no one come back in it's place, well, that's B.S. I am a 3 time Saturn customer and I've enjoyed my experience with them quite a bit. People are starting to say they like the new products that are available through Saturn now. The cheap stigma is finally starting to wear off, so its just a matter of time before even more fresh faces enter the showrooms. Just because several on this board dislike Saturn because they think it was an experiment gone wrong, doesn't mean that Saturn would be any better not existing. Personally I think that, although not profitable as of yet, Saturn has done rather decent. If you take things into account like how it has a small percentage of dealer networks across Canada and the U.S. compared to GM's other divisions, the lack of ad dollars gone into Saturn's public perception (hey, you can have one great car on your hands, but if the public isn't aware it exists or is competitive, who's going to buy it?)

Saturn has, for the past 17 years, been the red-headed stepchild of GM. They were the sole reason the customer satisfaction ratings throughout all of GM's divisions have vastly improved (because everyone now follows Saturn's low-pressure sales tactics), they were the test-experiments for the rest of GM's product line (L-series created to introduce the Vectra to N/A, Aura to bring over newer Gen Vectra platform, Ion redline to iron out the kinks for Chevy's Cobalt SS/SC, Vue to introduce Theta chassis before Nox and Torrent). The list goes on.

You guys can say what you want about Saturn, but the truth is that without Saturn, I wouldn't have put my faith in GM as a company either, because I prefer to own smaller cars myself, and when the alternative to my original S-series was a cavalier or sunfire, I was going to otherwise end up at Honda. My purchase of an SC1 with it's great gas mileage, was what drew me back into the GM fold. I love driving my 08 Vue. Sure it's heavy, but it kills the nox and torrent in refinement, handling and overall driving characteristics. I can't wait to own an Astra when the time comes to get a second vehicle for my personal commute to work. The thought of it excites me. It's such a great little car, that, to me, re-energizes GM's small car segment. Personally, I couldn't care less about the cobalt and G5 since they were identical in feel to my previous ION. Good cars, but I want to move forward in my car buying decisions, not backwards.

Back to the topic at hand, the saving of the Pontiac brand, and why it wouldn't be cut out for today's consumer.

You are simply way off of the mark.

-Saturn always was and still is an ill-advised, money-losing experiment.

-Saturn has a tiny distribution network

-The Satopels aren't exactly lighting up the sales charts.

-The money wasted on creating Saturn is a huge part of why so many of the products of that time were substandard - Saturn ate their budgets. Billions were wasted creating Saturn.

- Saturn has never, and likely will never, offer GM a return on the massive investment GM has repeatedly put into it.

Those are facts.

Don't believe me?

Ask PCS!

My position on this is not based on emotion as you charge. If any brand should be starved out of existence, it should be Saturn. And If we must have some opels here, they should have been Buicks and Maybe a Pontiac.

[Z-06]

My position on this is not based on emtion as you charge. If any brand should be starved out of existence, it should be Saturn. And If we must have some opels here, they should have been Buicks and Maybe a Pontiac.

Or SAABs

[Oracle of Delphi]

Or SAABs

Pssst, they already are!

[Z-06]

Pssst, they already are!

Psst, Ich weiß

[Satty]

Saturn has failed. GM screwed that brand up and has brought them in too close. If Pontiac goes to spare Saturn I will be so pissed. Pontiac sells so many more vehicles than Saturn and they have a bunch of rebadges. Where as Saturn gets Opels and they can't move them out the door.

Saturn and Pontiac have to be viewed as separate entities. They're different cases because of the dealer networks. Shutting Saturn down would cost GM billions and put anyone who works at a stand-alone Saturn dealership out of work. My local dealer is owned by a group that also owns the Acura dealership with which the Saturn dealer shares a lot. If Saturn were closed down, the more competent employees in the Saturn bulding could go over to the Acura building with little problem, but there would still be job losses. Pontic is just one head of a three-headed beast, and I'm sure the people who run B-P-G dealerships wouldn't mind if one brand was gone, it would free up floor space in the showroom and make less product for their salespeople and service staff to study.

[Camino LS6]

Pssst, they already are!

That might have made Saab less worthless as a North American brand.

[ocnblu]

What Camino says is true about Saturn. Simple.

[Camino LS6]

Saturn and Pontiac have to be viewed as separate entities. They're different cases because of the dealer networks. Shutting Saturn down would cost GM billions and put anyone who works at a stand-alone Saturn dealership out of work. My local dealer is owned by a group that also owns the Acura dealership with which the Saturn dealer shares a lot. If Saturn were closed down, the more competent employees in the Saturn bulding could go over to the Acura building with little problem, but there would still be job losses. Pontic is just one head of a three-headed beast, and I'm sure the people who run B-P-G dealerships wouldn't mind if one brand was gone, it would free up floor space in the showroom and make less product for their salespeople and service staff to study.

...and shrink the customer base massively.

I don't think they'll be too happy about that.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Psst, Ich weiß

Psst, ich weiß, dass Sie wissen!

[Camino LS6]

Even if GM (in their seemingly infinite capacity to be foolish) turns Pontiac into an all small FWD clone division, it would still be the better bet than Saturn.

[ocnblu]

Borger, what are all these nonsensical words you are posting up in here?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Borger, what are all these nonsensical words you are posting up in here?

I'm saying that your Bratwurst smells! :AH-HA_wink:

Edited September 26, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Z-06]

Even if GM (in their seemingly infinite capacity to be foolish) turns Pontiac into an all small FWD clone division, it would still be the better bet than Saturn.

I really think Alpha will suit Pontiac more than a Chevy but I understand Chevy will bring home the bread more than Pontiac and that is what GM needs. I remember starting a thread about a car like the E46 3 series at price of Malibu. That would be a perfect fit. No it does not have to compete with the Caddy. As a matter of fact of the B-P-G the least relevant brand to me is the Buick. Keep it in China only just like keep a Pontiac in US only. If Pontiac gets a Delta II why will Buick need a Delta II?

Borger, what are all these nonsensical words you are posting up in here?

Blu, man you still have not learned faarrin languages?

[saturnd00d]

Even if GM (in their seemingly infinite capacity to be foolish) turns Pontiac into an all small FWD clone division, it would still be the better bet than Saturn.

And if anyone would be happy about Pontiac becoming said FWD clone division, then you aren't as big a Pontiac fanbase as I thought you all were. Though I would hate to see any division go, I would hate more for a heritage division like Pontiac or Buick to soldier on with poor products that are unrelated to their background. ie to see Pontiac with small FWD econoboxes that are re-badged daewoo products is truly sad, likewise if Buick came out with a small econo car, I would be just as sad, as that is not the direction these divisions should be going. Saturn, as you are all glad to say, is a failure with it's original mission. It's been this huge money pit that GM mistakingly thought up. While, as much of that might be true, it doesn't have the background and heritage that the others have. It doesn't have rich history drilled deep within the American roots of society. This is why GM can (and is trying) to re-invent Saturn.

As I stated in my previous post, with a percentage of the retail network that the other divisions have, and marketing $$$ going into the new 'bu among other more popular bread-and-butter products, it's no wonder why the public has no idea what Saturn is, offers or is trying to become. On a similar note, going back to the malibu, look at how much more attention GM is paying to that car, compared with the Aura. They are essentially the same car. Both look classy, both have polished looks, both have won Car of the Year, both have the same exact gov't EPA ratings, yet ask anyone, and they will tell you that the 'bu's highway rating is 33 MPG. Ask those same people about the Aura, and they probably won't realize it has the same rating.

Plain and simple, how can Saturn light up the sales chart with a fraction of the available resources that the other divisions have? But with what it does have, it's doing decently well. We all know how long a public's perception of a product or division takes to overcome. GM has had to do it with their whole organization. Same will go with Saturn (if it survives that long).

Lastly, would I miss Pontiac if it went away? Sure I would, but then again, I already miss it because it's not these days, what it stood for in the past. To me, Pontiac as I knew it, is already dead.

[Satty]

I'm sure high school girls will drive a Buick Somerset if their parents cant buy them a G6. A lot of them drove Aleros until Olds went under.

[Camino LS6]

And if anyone would be happy about Pontiac becoming said FWD clone division, then you aren't as big a Pontiac fanbase as I thought you all were. Though I would hate to see any division go, I would hate more for a heritage division like Pontiac or Buick to soldier on with poor products that are unrelated to their background. ie to see Pontiac with small FWD econoboxes that are re-badged daewoo products is truly sad, likewise if Buick came out with a small econo car, I would be just as sad, as that is not the direction these divisions should be going. Saturn, as you are all glad to say, is a failure with it's original mission. It's been this huge money pit that GM mistakingly thought up. While, as much of that might be true, it doesn't have the background and heritage that the others have. It doesn't have rich history drilled deep within the American roots of society. This is why GM can (and is trying) to re-invent Saturn.

As I stated in my previous post, with a percentage of the retail network that the other divisions have, and marketing $$$ going into the new 'bu among other more popular bread-and-butter products, it's no wonder why the public has no idea what Saturn is, offers or is trying to become. On a similar note, going back to the malibu, look at how much more attention GM is paying to that car, compared with the Aura. They are essentially the same car. Both look classy, both have polished looks, both have won Car of the Year, both have the same exact gov't EPA ratings, yet ask anyone, and they will tell you that the 'bu's highway rating is 33 MPG. Ask those same people about the Aura, and they probably won't realize it has the same rating.

Plain and simple, how can Saturn light up the sales chart with a fraction of the available resources that the other divisions have? But with what it does have, it's doing decently well. We all know how long a public's perception of a product or division takes to overcome. GM has had to do it with their whole organization. Same will go with Saturn (if it survives that long).

Lastly, would I miss Pontiac if it went away? Sure I would, but then again, I already miss it because it's not these days, what it stood for in the past. To me, Pontiac as I knew it, is already dead.

First of all, no I would not be happy with FWD clones as the new Pontiac lineup.

Second, I still believe that killing any brands other than Saab (for the NA market) and Hummer (selling it off) isn't a good answer. That goes for Saturn as well. My point is that it never should have existed in the first place, and that the premise which created it was deeply flawed.

If, However, any current brand other than Hummer and Saab were to go away then Saturn would be the right one to go.

Pontiac still has two cars that meet the criteria the brand should be following (G8 and Solstice) with two new G8 variants and a new Solstice variant yet to come - so the value is still there at the moment. Add in a Mini competitor (a real one with style), and an Alpha lineup while dumping the G5 ,G3, and Vibe then I'll be happy.

[saturnd00d]

First of all, no I would not be happy with FWD clones as the new Pontiac lineup.

Second, I still believe that killing any brands other than Saab (for the NA market) and Hummer (selling it off) isn't a good answer. That goes for Saturn as well. My point is that it never should have existed in the first place, and that the premise which created it was deeply flawed.

If, However, any current brand other than Hummer and Saab were to go away then Saturn would be the right one to go.

Pontiac still has two cars that meet the criteria the brand should be following (G8 and Solstice) with two new G8 variants and a new Solstice variant yet to come - so the value is still there at the moment. Add in a Mini competitor (a real one with style), and an Alpha lineup while dumping the G5 ,G3, and Vibe then I'll be happy.

I actually agree with you in the fact that Hummer and Saab should be axed. Though I like Saab cars, I don't know a single person who owns a newer one. When I ask people I know, who are in the market for a car of that pricerange, if they've even considered Saab, I get the same answers like "why would I consider a car in that pricerange with a turbo-4 when I can have X car with a punchy V6?". Likewise, Hummer should be sold to the highest bidder as soon as possible. From the sale of those two, GM could soldier on for at least a few more years, and have more money for product improvements, refreshes, and marketing right there.

I still believe that with some more marketing along with local assembly of the Astra, Saturn could survive and turn the tables. The Astra is a great little car, but due to the currency fluctuations, puts it at a higher starting price than that of its direct competitors.

If Pontiac existed on a smaller scale and offered "niche cars" like Solstice and G8 variants, I think it could work, but I don't think Pontiac can keep going selling in volume anymore. I just don't think it's what people want or need anymore. Sadly, I hope it can survive but as I've said so many times now, not if it has to survive the way it is right now.

[Camino LS6]

I actually agree with you in the fact that Hummer and Saab should be axed. Though I like Saab cars, I don't know a single person who owns a newer one. When I ask people I know, who are in the market for a car of that pricerange, if they've even considered Saab, I get the same answers like "why would I consider a car in that pricerange with a turbo-4 when I can have X car with a punchy V6?". Likewise, Hummer should be sold to the highest bidder as soon as possible. From the sale of those two, GM could soldier on for at least a few more years, and have more money for product improvements, refreshes, and marketing right there.

I still believe that with some more marketing along with local assembly of the Astra, Saturn could survive and turn the tables. The Astra is a great little car, but due to the currency fluctuations, puts it at a higher starting price than that of its direct competitors.

If Pontiac existed on a smaller scale and offered "niche cars" like Solstice and G8 variants, I think it could work, but I don't think Pontiac can keep going selling in volume anymore. I just don't think it's what people want or need anymore. Sadly, I hope it can survive but as I've said so many times now, not if it has to survive the way it is right now.

Here is where we agree!

Pontiac was 'supposed" to be moving toward a niche identity with a focus on performance and less volume. I was fine with that plan.

But now the "wizards" at GME are attempting to turn it into a Daewoo clone - which is suicidal and stupid.

As for Saturn, GM has little choice but to try to make it work at this point. Some of the products are good, but the focus not so much.

I love the Sky, but it never should have existed at Saturn.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Lastly, would I miss Pontiac if it went away? Sure I would, but then again, I already miss it because it's not these days, what it stood for in the past. To me, Pontiac as I knew it, is already dead.

It is dead to me too as I remember it. Pontiac will never be the way it was during the 60's and early 70's when my Pontiac Custom-S was built. The realities of the world today make Pontiac irrelevant and redundant to GM's other brands. As the only North American brand, it is weak compared to the other American brands that have connections to other brands in other parts of the world. As FOG said in another post, I would rather Pontiac be taken out now, head held high, instead of waiting a few years when the brand goes out with a whimper.

Pontiac should be retired and Saturn needs to have it's name changed to Opel and it's vehicle lineup needs to be exactly the same lineup as it is in Europe. That Opel brand needs to be moved into the Buick GMC sales channel as Pontiac is moved out and retired.

GMNA has to many brands, in a market, that on a good day is only 20% of that market. GM has 3 major car sales channels in North America, Cadillac, Chevrolet and BPG, by retiring Pontiac and moving Opel in, you strengthen the old BPG sales channel by changing it to BOG and offering a European arm into that sales channel, the sales channel survives stronger that it was before and offering a more varied MID/LUX product portfolio with a European flair. Let Chevrolet offer the entry level GMDAT cars and volume leading vehicles, while Cadillac offers American luxury to the world.

[Camino LS6]

I entirely disagree with that approach, it will fail miserably.

[BigPontiac]

It is dead to me too as I remember it. Pontiac will never be the way it was during the 60's and early 70's when my Pontiac Custom-S was built. The realities of the world today make Pontiac irrelevant and redundant to GM's other brands. As the only North American brand, it is weak compared to the other American brands that have connections to other brands in other parts of the world. As FOG said in another post, I would rather Pontiac be taken out now, head held high, instead of waiting a few years when the brand goes out with a whimper.

Pontiac should be retired and Saturn needs to have it's name changed to Opel and it's vehicle lineup needs to be exactly the same lineup as it is in Europe. That Opel brand needs to be moved into the Buick GMC sales channel as Pontiac is moved out and retired.

GMNA has to many brands, in a market, that on a good day is only 20% of that market. GM has 3 major car sales channels in North America, Cadillac, Chevrolet and BPG, by retiring Pontiac and moving Opel in, you strengthen the old BPG sales channel by changing it to BOG and offering a European arm into that sales channel, the sales channel survives stronger that it was before and offering a more varied MID/LUX product portfolio with a European flair. Let Chevrolet offer the entry level GMDAT cars and volume leading vehicles, while Cadillac offers American luxury to the world.

With Opel moving up market, they appear to overlap with Buick. The Opel, Saturn, Buick roles all appear to be blurring.

[saturnd00d]

With Opel moving up market, they appear to overlap with Buick. The Opel, Saturn, Buick roles all appear to be blurring.

I'm not so sure on that, Opel offers (which Saturn should offer) small cars in addition to midsized cars and CUV's, whereas Buick can focus on midsized and larger cars, with base V6 engines or more powerful V8 engines as options (with addition of Enclave), and have whisper-quiet rides, esentially being the average man's caddy.

So now that most of us are on the same page, the only thing I'm not so clear on, is to have Saturn renamed in N/A as Opel. Essentially, the initial Saturn brand, with its original mission is far from what it is now, we all know that. However, I feel that renaming it Opel would cost GM more money to do, that it doesn't have or can't spare. Think of the new advertising it would have to do to make the public aware of the "new" Opel and focus TV spots on it's european heritage and it's leaps and bounds in quality improvement, compared to its past (for those that were around to see Opel in it's N/A glory days). I think GM is better off leaving the Saturn brand intact just for the sake of having SOME brand recognition to draw people in the doors. At this point, many car enthusiasts already know or understand that Saturn is essentially Opel with some minor changes, but for those that don't follow automotive news and still doesn't know, the Saturn name that they've come to know for the past 17 years will resonate a bit more, than the Opel name they really don't remember or that might have caused them problems when they bought one in the 70's.

Maybe down the pipeline if GM starts toward the road to profitability again and has some liquid assets, should they consider the namechange to Opel, but at this point in time, I don't think they can afford to take a chance any further. It could really go either way.

[BigPontiac]

I'm not so sure on that, Opel offers (which Saturn should offer) small cars in addition to midsized cars and CUV's, whereas Buick can focus on midsized and larger cars, with base V6 engines or more powerful V8 engines as options (with addition of Enclave), and have whisper-quiet rides, esentially being the average man's caddy.

So now that most of us are on the same page, the only thing I'm not so clear on, is to have Saturn renamed in N/A as Opel. Essentially, the initial Saturn brand, with its original mission is far from what it is now, we all know that. However, I feel that renaming it Opel would cost GM more money to do, that it doesn't have or can't spare. Think of the new advertising it would have to do to make the public aware of the "new" Opel and focus TV spots on it's european heritage and it's leaps and bounds in quality improvement, compared to its past (for those that were around to see Opel in it's N/A glory days). I think GM is better off leaving the Saturn brand intact just for the sake of having SOME brand recognition to draw people in the doors. At this point, many car enthusiasts already know or understand that Saturn is essentially Opel with some minor changes, but for those that don't follow automotive news and still doesn't know, the Saturn name that they've come to know for the past 17 years will resonate a bit more, than the Opel name they really don't remember or that might have caused them problems when they bought one in the 70's.

Maybe down the pipeline if GM starts toward the road to profitability again and has some liquid assets, should they consider the namechange to Opel, but at this point in time, I don't think they can afford to take a chance any further. It could really go either way.

You assumed Buick's role in the US in your thinking, not in China where they also offer small cars. Also even new Opels are being rebadged as Buicks for the Chinese market (Insignia -> Regal).

[ocnblu]

The Pontiac "image" and "spirit" and that potential will always be more attractive to me than "whatever" Saturn/Opel stands for. I use VW (and I love VW when they stick to their original premise of affordability) as an example of a European company who has lost favor here in the US... Saturn/Opel would seem to offer a similar image as VWNA... nice enough, but not "hot", not "gotta have". Local Saturn dealer has cars languishing on the lots, even with the Employee Pricing promotion, they cannot move an Astra. Their lot is full of every Saturn model, and every time I stop by there, the very same cars remain. Some here like to say Pontiac will be starved of product, but Saturn has been starved of purpose, which can be just as powerful in the eyes of the buying public.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It is dead to me too as I remember it. Pontiac will never be the way it was during the 60's and early 70's when my Pontiac Custom-S was built. The realities of the world today make Pontiac irrelevant and redundant to GM's other brands. As the only North American brand, it is weak compared to the other American brands that have connections to other brands in other parts of the world. As FOG said in another post, I would rather Pontiac be taken out now, head held high, instead of waiting a few years when the brand goes out with a whimper.

Pontiac should be retired and Saturn needs to have it's name changed to Opel and it's vehicle lineup needs to be exactly the same lineup as it is in Europe. That Opel brand needs to be moved into the Buick GMC sales channel as Pontiac is moved out and retired.

GMNA has to many brands, in a market, that on a good day is only 20% of that market. GM has 3 major car sales channels in North America, Cadillac, Chevrolet and BPG, by retiring Pontiac and moving Opel in, you strengthen the old BPG sales channel by changing it to BOG and offering a European arm into that sales channel, the sales channel survives stronger that it was before and offering a more varied MID/LUX product portfolio with a European flair. Let Chevrolet offer the entry level GMDAT cars and volume leading vehicles, while Cadillac offers American luxury to the world.

That makes no sense...

If you bring Opel into B/P/GMC, you'll still have 3 major sales channels in a market "that on a good day is only 20%"

It's just a pissing match.

GME wants Opel to expand into a global brand and they will continue to try and kill GM divisions until that happens. What about when Opel sits in the same showroom as Buick and sells for the same prices? Will Buick be the next brand to be "irrelevant and redundant"?

Retiring Pontiac makes no sense... You'll still have the same number of dealers, the same products and the same WEAKENING, half-assed B/P/GMC sales channel.

So, you're plan is to save how much money by phasing out Pontiac? And then you're going to spend HOW MUCH MONEY on buying out Saturn dealers/merging Saturn into the B/GMC channel/rebuilding the channel to accommodate a 'Euro flair'. THEN YOU'RE GOING TO SPEND HOW MUCH(?!?!?!) TO LAUNCH AND ESTABLISH OPEL IN THE U.S. WHILE ENDURING THE NEGATIVE PR OF PHASING THE SATURN NAME OUT (On top of the negative PR of phasing the much more relevant -- in media terms Pontiac name?!?!?!

People need to realize that the 60's ONLY ENCOMPASS A SMALL AMOUNT OF WHAT PONTIAC IS. Saying that Pontiac is irrelevant today based on what you perceived it to be in the 60s is akin to saying that Cadillac is irrelevant today based on what you perceived it to be in the 30s or 40s.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That makes no sense...

If you bring Opel into B/P/GMC, you'll still have 3 major sales channels in a market "that on a good day is only 20%"

It's just a pissing match.

GME wants Opel to expand into a global brand and they will continue to try and kill GM divisions until that happens. What about when Opel sits in the same showroom as Buick and sells for the same prices? Will Buick be the next brand to be "irrelevant and redundant"?

Retiring Pontiac makes no sense... You'll still have the same number of dealers, the same products and the same WEAKENING, half-assed B/P/GMC sales channel.

So, you're plan is to save how much money by phasing out Pontiac? And then you're going to spend HOW MUCH MONEY on buying out Saturn dealers/merging Saturn into the B/GMC channel/rebuilding the channel to accommodate a 'Euro flair'. THEN YOU'RE GOING TO SPEND HOW MUCH(?!?!?!) TO LAUNCH AND ESTABLISH OPEL IN THE U.S. WHILE ENDURING THE NEGATIVE PR OF PHASING THE SATURN NAME OUT (On top of the negative PR of phasing the much more relevant -- in media terms Pontiac name?!?!?!

People need to realize that the 60's ONLY ENCOMPASS A SMALL AMOUNT OF WHAT PONTIAC IS. Saying that Pontiac is irrelevant today based on what you perceived it to be in the 60s is akin to saying that Cadillac is irrelevant today based on what you perceived it to be in the 30s or 40s.

It makes perfect sense, because you get rid of a brand without killing the sales channel, and you save millions by not shutting that sales channel down.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[longtooth]

It makes perfect sense, because you get rid of a brand without killing the sales channel, and you save millions by not shutting that sales channel down.

Why save millions, when you can save...thousands? (w/my apologies to Dr. Evil)