New 2010 LaCrosse pictures

[Drew Dowdell]

As for your Enclave comment...

Enclave Sept'08 sales: 5,171

Lexus RX Sept'08 sales: 4,639

RX sales have regularly trumped everything in its class, but the Enclave has exceeded expectations as a newcomer in the Luxury SUV/CUV market and beats just about everything else in the market:

2008 YTD sales:

Lexus RX - 63,219

Buick Enclave - 36,900

Acura MDX - 36,888

Mercedes ML - 25,498

BMW X5 - 24,663

Lincoln MKX - 23,977

Volvo XC90 - 15,292

Cadillac SRX - 12,863

Infiniti FX - 10,176

Audi Q7 - 10,107

VW Touareg - 5,477

What are the RX's sales since May 2008 when the Enclave was released?

[InvictaMan]

I think my biggest disappointment so far on the new car (I just can't bring myself to call it LaCrosse, it is just too unworthy) is the elusive headlight pod. The concept headlights were great and incorporated the LED running lights which are currently the big thing showing up on new luxury models (i.e. Audi A4). Why would Buick feel the need to step away from this emerging trend to do run of the mill, not trend setting designs? I know the headlights have yet to be fully seen up close, but that is my current opinion. Everything else (with the lack of specs) seems to be right on the money with the concept. I think the integrated center console in the back seat of the Enclave, along with the lack of attention given behind the second row from concept to reality, was the wrong step for Buick. These details are what would have differentiated the vehicle more from its lesser GM siblings.

[Z-06]

What are the RX's sales since May 2008 when the Enclave was released?

Enclave was released in May 2007, not 2008. So far the RX has been holding strong except for last month when Enclave bumped it. To give Enclave the credit, it has not seen decline in sales if compared to the same month last year.

[Drew Dowdell]

damn, am I really that asleep?

[Z-06]

damn, am I really that asleep?

Long night heh?

[smk4565]

The Lucerne starts $8,000 less than an ES, and they sell them to rental fleets and it still is behind the ES this year.

As pointed out:

Lexus ES Jan-Sept'08: 50,642

Buick Lucerne Jan-Sept'08: 43,839

If the LaCrosse is $28-35,000 it will just cannabolize Lucerne sales, so maybe they'll sell 60-70,000 a year like GM thinks, but it won't be from conquest sales of imports.

The Enclave does well on that list because it is cheaper than a lot of those vehicles. The Enclave starts at $33,955 (plus $2500 cash back) which is closer to Tahoe, Expedition, Armada, Pilot, Acadia, etc. than it is to an X5 which bases over $47,000.

[Drew Dowdell]

Long night heh?

One week till I say auf wiedersehen.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Lucerne starts $8,000 less than an ES, and they sell them to rental fleets and it still is behind the ES this year.

As pointed out:

Lexus ES Jan-Sept'08: 50,642

Buick Lucerne Jan-Sept'08: 43,839

If the LaCrosse is $28-35,000 it will just cannabolize Lucerne sales, so maybe they'll sell 60-70,000 a year like GM thinks, but it won't be from conquest sales of imports.

The Enclave does well on that list because it is cheaper than a lot of those vehicles. The Enclave starts at $33,955 (plus $2500 cash back) which is closer to Tahoe, Expedition, Armada, Pilot, Acadia, etc. than it is to an X5 which bases over $47,000.

The Enclave starts there, but transaction prices are much higher. Buick had the opposite problem with the Enclave as Cadillac had with the SRX. This time, there aren't enough high end models.

[smk4565]

The concept headlights were great and incorporated the LED running lights which are currently the big thing showing up on new luxury models (i.e. Audi A4). Why would Buick feel the need to step away from this emerging trend to do run of the mill, not trend setting designs?

To cut cost and save money.

[smk4565]

The Enclave starts there, but transaction prices are much higher. Buick had the opposite problem with the Enclave as Cadillac had with the SRX. This time, there aren't enough high end models.

If it is such a hot seller with such a high transaction price, why offer $2500 cash back on it?

Wasn't the Enclave around $34,700 for 2008, if so they lowered the price on the 09 model.

The Enclave has a long options/package list, so it is probably hard to build them to suit buyer tastes. They should make more standard on the CXL, and leave big ticket stuff like navigation, panoramic roof and rear dvd system as options. Even still a loaded Enclave is about $45,000 which is the same as a Nissan Armada LE (base), and I don't consider the Nissan a luxury suv.

GM's problem is Cadillac is primarily a $35-50,000 brand. So that forces Buick to be a $25-35,000 brand, Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn cars primarily are under $25,000 (except G8, Corvette). Cadillac needs to be a $40-100,000 brand, Buick $30k-40k, etc.

[z28luvr01]

The Enclave has a long options/package list, so it is probably hard to build them to suit buyer tastes.

So in order to build Enclaves to better suite buyer tastes, they need to offer fewer options/packages?

oooh kaaaaay

[VenSeattle]

The Lucerne starts $8,000 less than an ES, and they sell them to rental fleets and it still is behind the ES this year.

As pointed out:

Lexus ES Jan-Sept'08: 50,642

Buick Lucerne Jan-Sept'08: 43,839

Approx 13% of Lucerne sales have gone to fleet. That's not a high percentage. There are other premium brands with higher numbers... including several direct import competitors to the Lucerne.

Even still a loaded Enclave is about $45,000 which is the same as a Nissan Armada LE (base), and I don't consider the Nissan a luxury suv.

By that definition, none of the Enclave competitors listed below should be considered luxury CUVs either - Base Prices -

Lincoln MKX - $35,840

Volvo XC90 - $36,210

Lexus RX - $37,700

Cadillac SRX - $38,105

VW Touareg - $39,300

Acura MDX - $40,195

The Enclave overlaps the pricing of all the CUVs listed above and competes directly with them.

The Pilot is not an Enclave competitor. The Pilot competes with the Traverse. The MDX competes with the Enclave.

[VenSeattle]

Notice that the Buick Enclave starting price less than $5,000 than the Lexus, and has managed to place 2nd in premium CUV sales. That's called success.

Lexus RX350 Base MSRP: $37,700

Buick Enclave Base MSRP: $33,220

You're only fooling yourself if you think the Lexus RX350 is a premium/luxury CUV and the Buick Enclave isn't.

[smk4565]

I'd call the Enclave premium, and the Lexus RX entry level luxury. ML350 and X5 are luxury. The Enclave at $33,955 is about $5000 more than a Pilot or Flex. The Acura and Lexus are about $5,000 more than an Enclave. You can't argue that the Enclave competes with more expensive vehicles, but the Pilot and Flex don't compete with and Enclave, especially when a Pilot or Flex with options runs near $40,000, right in the heart of Enclave/Acadia pricing. The Pilot is closer in price to an Enclave, than the Enclave is to the MDX.

I know GM and Buick fans try to create perception that the Enclave is squarely aimed at Lexus and Acura and that the LaCrosse is aimed at the ES, but if that is the case, price them like a Lexus, don't price them like a Toyota. There is a reason the Enclave is $6,000 less than an MDX, just as there is a reason a Pilot is $5,000 less than an Enclave. In each case, you get more stuff on the more expensive vehicle.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'd call the Enclave premium, and the Lexus RX entry level luxury. ML350 and X5 are luxury.

Tell us why the Enclave isn't luxury?

Price and ability to circle the nurburgring are not factors.

[Z-06]

I'd call the Enclave premium, and the Lexus RX entry level luxury. ML350 and X5 are luxury. The Enclave at $33,955 is about $5000 more than a Pilot or Flex. The Acura and Lexus are about $5,000 more than an Enclave. You can't argue that the Enclave competes with more expensive vehicles, but the Pilot and Flex don't compete with and Enclave, especially when a Pilot or Flex with options runs near $40,000, right in the heart of Enclave/Acadia pricing. The Pilot is closer in price to an Enclave, than the Enclave is to the MDX.

I know GM and Buick fans try to create perception that the Enclave is squarely aimed at Lexus and Acura and that the LaCrosse is aimed at the ES, but if that is the case, price them like a Lexus, don't price them like a Toyota. There is a reason the Enclave is $6,000 less than an MDX, just as there is a reason a Pilot is $5,000 less than an Enclave. In each case, you get more stuff on the more expensive vehicle.

Point VERY WELL Noted:

Audi A6 3.2 - $42,950 Base

MB E350 - $54,075 Base

BMW 535i - $50,080 Base

Based on your logic - Audi = Premium, BMW = Mid way between luxury and premium, MB = Luxury

Now if you put all those three aforementioned brands in the same breath again, I will have to treat you using Archibald Bitchslap theory.

Edited October 28, 2008 by smallchevy

[The O.C.]

CTS and ES are the same size and price, although the drive train and ride firmness difference attracts different types of buyers. But my point was the CTS at $34,000 sells about 6,000 units a month. If the LaCrosse is $34,000 (like some here think it will be) how will they sell the same volume the CTS does? This car is no threat to Lexus, just as the old and ugly Lexus RX still crushes the Enclave in sales.

Buick is going after the Avalon, Sable and Azera (if it is still around) with this car. And there is nothing wrong with that, just don't tell me a $27,000 Buick is as good as a $37,000 Lexus.

Couple of things........realistically, the CTS doesn't sell anywhere near $34K. The average transaction price is up around the low- to -mid $40's. This is in well-equipped-to-loaded ES range.

(We probably sell just as many $48K-$50K CTSs as we do $38K-$40K ones.)

We see way more cross-shopping and trade-ins from the Lexus ES than we do the IS. In fact, I can't recall one single customer coming in with an IS cross-shopping with CTS. It's ES all the way. Now, this is a good thing as it proves we are able to conquer the all-hailing Lexus customer......but the reality in the marketplace is that it is the CTS that is battling the ES.

Buick is in a $h!load of trouble if they try to market the new LaCrosse against the ES.

May sound good on paper.....but in the real world, that's simply not gonna be reality.

[The O.C.]

If the 4-year old Lucerne can beat the ES in sales during this traumatic climate, then why can't a brand new Buick sedan?

We've battled on this before (friendly battle)........

The Lucerne is no Lexus competitor. No Buick is. (With the exception, IMHO, of the Enclave possibly.)

Just because a Lucerne sells close to as many cars as the ES doesn't mean Buick is attracting those buyers......or that Buick is even on their shopping list.

Look at average transaction price, model mix, and consumer demographics. The vast majority of Lucernes that are sold transact in the high-$20K range (CX and CXL V6 models.)

While I think the concept of Buick offering Lexus-style appointments and ride quality is sound......the reality is that Buick can offer those attributes but in no way should be marketed as a competitor to Lexus.

Lexus is now a tier-1 luxury make....along with BMW and Mercedes-Benz. That is where Cadillac's place is in this industry.

[The O.C.]

Notice that the Buick Enclave starting price less than $5,000 than the Lexus, and has managed to place 2nd in premium CUV sales. That's called success.

Lexus RX350 Base MSRP: $37,700

Buick Enclave Base MSRP: $33,220

You're only fooling yourself if you think the Lexus RX350 is a premium/luxury CUV and the Buick Enclave isn't.

The Enclave is a premium product relative to it's sister Lambdas......Buick is not a premium brand.

[smk4565]

Audi A6 3.2 - $42,950 Base

MB E350 - $54,075 Base

BMW 535i - $50,080 Base

Based on your logic - Audi = Premium, BMW = Mid way between luxury and premium, MB = Luxury

The auto luxury tax is (or was recently) $42,000, I tend to think of luxury cars as being over that, and the $32-40k priced cars being entry level luxury. SUVs cost more than cars though, there are Chevy, Nissan and Ford SUVs that cost $45,000+, I don't really think of them as luxury vehicles.

I can see the Enclave as entry luxury since it has several luxury features, but the interior materials are at best, marginally better than what the Acadia or Outlook has. The Enclave has faux wood all over the dash, and it doesn't match the color or grain of the wood on the steering wheel. That is a detail Lexus wouldn't miss.

There is a big size difference between the Enclave, which is Tahoe length, and the RX that is Equinox size or even a little smaller. So I wonder if they are even cross shopped that much, RX buyers probably aren't looking for such a large vehicle.

[VenSeattle]

The Enclave is a premium product relative to it's sister Lambdas......Buick is not a premium brand.

That wasn't my argument. I was talking about the Enclave... not Buick itself...

However, you're incorrect. Buick is a "premium" brand.

Buick's current portfolio "price range" is similar to Lincoln, Acura, SAAB, and Volvo. ($25k-$45k)

Buick is not a mainstream brand. Buick is not and entry-level brand. Buick is not a Luxury brand in the US. Internationally, Buick is a luxury brand. The Enclave and the next Gen LaCrosse will be sold in the US and China relatively unchanged. We'll see how the market accepts the new LaCrosse and go from there.

I don't think GM's attempt at the market repositioning of Buick is a mistake. Buick can not continue to allow the market to believe they only make retirement cars. Buick can not continue to be compared to Hondas or Toyotas. Buick should not overlap Chevrolet. That's Saturn and Pontiac. It takes time to change public perception. Public perception is changing gradually at Buick. China's success and the Enclave's success indicate this. The drop in buyer's age indicates this.

[Drew Dowdell]

The auto luxury tax is (or was recently) $42,000, I tend to think of luxury cars as being over that, and the $32-40k priced cars being entry level luxury. SUVs cost more than cars though, there are Chevy, Nissan and Ford SUVs that cost $45,000+, I don't really think of them as luxury vehicles.

And what SMK thinks is what dictates the market.

I can see the Enclave as entry luxury since it has several luxury features, but the interior materials are at best, marginally better than what the Acadia or Outlook has. The Enclave has faux wood all over the dash, and it doesn't match the color or grain of the wood on the steering wheel. That is a detail Lexus wouldn't miss.

You mean like this?

I also like the KMart LCD you get if you don't buy the Navi.

There is a big size difference between the Enclave, which is Tahoe length, and the RX that is Equinox size or even a little smaller. So I wonder if they are even cross shopped that much, RX buyers probably aren't looking for such a large vehicle.

The Enclave doesn't look as big as a Tahoe. Given the sales statistics, I'd say there is a lot of cross shopping going on.

[Robert Hall]

And what SMK thinks is what dictates the market.

The Enclave doesn't look as big as a Tahoe. Given the sales statistics, I'd say there is a lot of cross shopping going on.

Yeah, the Enclave is only 0.2 inches shorter, same width, over 4 inches lower, wheelbase almost 3 inches longer than the Tahoe. The Tahoe just looks bigger because it's square and truckular, while the Enclave is curvy and sleeker.

[Z-06]

The auto luxury tax is (or was recently) $42,000, I tend to think of luxury cars as being over that, and the $32-40k priced cars being entry level luxury. SUVs cost more than cars though, there are Chevy, Nissan and Ford SUVs that cost $45,000+, I don't really think of them as luxury vehicles.

I can see the Enclave as entry luxury since it has several luxury features, but the interior materials are at best, marginally better than what the Acadia or Outlook has. The Enclave has faux wood all over the dash, and it doesn't match the color or grain of the wood on the steering wheel. That is a detail Lexus wouldn't miss.

There is a big size difference between the Enclave, which is Tahoe length, and the RX that is Equinox size or even a little smaller. So I wonder if they are even cross shopped that much, RX buyers probably aren't looking for such a large vehicle.

You were NOT arguing SIZE, TAX, A CUT-OFF POINT (luxury cap or whatever you call), FAUX WOOD.

You were merely pointing PRICE DIFFERENCE among comparable vehicles distinguishes those vehicles' classification of being a premium or a luxury vehicle, so stop prodding around and get back to your own point.

[gm4life]

My small town dealer got two Lexus RX's in on trade for Enclaves. This is a town with 5,000 people and one car dealer don't tell me it isn't being cross-shopped.

Edited October 29, 2008 by gm4life

[gm4life]

Also in my book haven been in both of them and driven an Acaida (not an Enclave) but sat in Enclave and driven an RX I can honestly say they each drive great. The Lexus slightly more sportier due to its size but the Enclave with its smooth six speed auto and wonderful quad seats (first two rows) is hard to beat. The interior in the Buick is far better than the Lexus in my view also add in the fact you actually have a real back seat and trunk it is a no brianer. On styling alone the Enclave would win it. I trust me when the RX first came out I really liked it and gave them credit, Buick just upped the ante and they deserve credit for coming close if not dethroning Toyota.

[smk4565]

Rumor is a 3 liter DI V6 with 250 hp is the standard engine. It's about time GM came up with that engine, the 3.6 isn't fuel efficient enough (lage behind the Honda and Ford 3.5's), a 3 liter getting 28-29 mpg highway with 250 hp is perfect for Buicks, Saturns, Malibus, Impalas, etc.

Although i would never put it past GM to offer some 3900 and 4-speed auto combo (like that in the Lucerne) and call it the LaCrosse "special edition" or "value package".

[Paolino]

Although i would never put it past GM to offer some 3900 and 4-speed auto combo (like that in the Lucerne) and call it the LaCrosse "special edition" or "value package".

I'm highly doubting that this time around since the Malibu debuted with only DOHC engines and the 6-speed auto mated to the V6, and now, almost every 4-banger trim.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm highly doubting that this time around since the Malibu debuted with only DOHC engines* and the 6-speed auto mated to the V6, and now, almost every 4-banger trim.

*Pushrod 3.5 liter was available to fleets at launch.

[Robert Hall]

I'm highly doubting that this time around since the Malibu debuted with only DOHC engines and the 6-speed auto mated to the V6, and now, almost every 4-banger trim.

Maybe they will keep the current LaCrosse around for a few years and call it the Buick Special, a base model priced below the new LaCrosse.

[Paolino]

Maybe they will keep the current LaCrosse around for a few years and call it the Buick Special, a base model priced below the new LaCrosse.

Haha, that's counting on having a bunch more 3800's laying around... oh wait... they probably do.

[Robert Hall]

Haha, that's counting on having a bunch more 3800's laying around... oh wait... they probably do.

They could even call it the Avis Special...since the W-Impala will be around for who knows how long, it wouldn't cost much more to keep the W-LAX around also..

[Paolino]

Nah... I wouldn't mind seeing this LaCrosse go.

[InvictaMan]

Article at Leftlane says "According to GM Inside News, the 2010 Buick LaCrosse will be offered with two powerplants – a base 3.0L V6 and an up-level 3.6L V6."

Here's the link.

[loki]

Article at Leftlane says "According to GM Inside News, the 2010 Buick LaCrosse will be offered with two powerplants – a base 3.0L V6 and an up-level 3.6L V6."

Here's the link.

assuming this is true...

is it,

1. just a larger 2.8 motor?

2. an imported design?

3. mostly new?

if the output is right, it will be more powerful than ford's 3.0

obviously motors have to make cafe regs ...I'm sure gearing will be very well matched for a motor like this.

hopefully this will be a motor that is more diverse than what the 2.8L could be used for. 2.8L block is the same as 3.6L? hopefully the 3L is more compact/lighter

[Robert Hall]

assuming this is true...

is it,

1. just a larger 2.8 motor?

2. an imported design?

3. mostly new?

if the output is right, it will be more powerful than ford's 3.0

obviously motors have to make cafe regs ...I'm sure gearing will be very well matched for a motor like this.

hopefully this will be a motor that is more diverse than what the 2.8L could be used for. 2.8L block is the same as 3.6L? hopefully the 3L is more compact/lighter

The article said all new with DI, so who knows....I would have thought maybe a smaller version of the 3.6.

Edited October 31, 2008 by moltar

[loki]

The article said all new with DI, so who knows....I would have thought maybe a smaller version of the 3.6.

yeah.. i just skimmed. lol

if it's still the 3.6/2.8 block...it will be heavier than needed but cheaper.... oh well.

prolly have ~225lbft? can i put it in place of my 3.1L/4speed ?!!!!! almost 3/4's the displacement of the 3.8, but 20% more power and same torque. that's why i think developing a small CIB v6 would be a great N/A compromise powerplant for small and midsize cars (~2800 lbs to ~3400lbs?)

too bad gm doesn't have the money to develop a gas engine like how they made the 4.5L diesel.

talk about truely "SS" epsilons... CuI/power ratio of the LNF, 3.0L putting out 380hp+ in a very compact and light powerplant.

[regfootball]

And the CTS outsells the IS. Way to compare non-similar vehicles. The ES is lipstick on the Camry pig. The Lacrosse is the Malibu <already excellent in it's own right> with all the lessons learned from the CTS. If Toyota isn't worried about the Lacrosse, so much the better. Let them get caught with their pants down.

the tundra is the pig in toyota's stable, it even looks like it will oink when you look at the grille