Official production Volt photo's

[PurdueGuy]

I'm thinking of another usage problem: what I if I live in a building and my car is left in the underground parking? How am I supposed to charge it?

I don't think dangling an extension cord down 20 floors is a workable idea...

you may not always be able to recharge it. Again, that just means you don't have the advantage of the plug-in system, but it will still be operable with the gas engine.

(how many times do I have to say that?)

[Dragon]

I think GM has designed it to occasionally start the engine to make sure there aren't problems with prolonged down-time.

the other problem with prolonged non-use would the gas itself. after a year or 2 the gas will be crap, depending on how much, or even if, any stabilizer was put in

[GXT]

you may not always be able to recharge it. Again, that just means you don't have the advantage of the plug-in system, but it will still be operable with the gas engine.

(how many times do I have to say that?)

I think it means you don't buy the Volt. You would be paying ~$40,000 for a car that gets the same MPG (or worse, I guess we will see) as an ~$20,000 Honda Insight.

[siegen]

I think it means you don't buy the Volt. You would be paying ~$40,000 for a car that gets the same MPG (or worse, I guess we will see) as an ~$20,000 Honda Insight.

Edit: I wonder what MPG it gets like that (if the gas engine is running constantly to keep the battery charged).

Edited September 18, 2008 by siegen

[PurdueGuy]

Edit: I wonder what MPG it gets like that (if the gas engine is running constantly to keep the battery charged).

It's a good question. An electric drivetrain is highly efficient, and it certainly helps to run an ICE at a specific RPM where it is at it's most efficient. Whether the overall package is more efficient than a normal ICE direct drive setup or not will be interesting to learn more about.

I agree, GXP (can't believe I just said that) - if a person's normal parking space doesn't allow them to plug in the Volt, it probably won't come even close to making sense for them to buy. The good thing is that the plugging in isn't required, so if you drive it to the airport and park it without plugging in, you won't return to a giant paperweight.

[Robert Hall]

One thing I wonder--the electric range is 40 miles, so after that it would run on the gasoline engine? i.e. would this car be useful for a road trip from Phoenix to LA (about 400 miles) and back for the weekend, for example? (or even up to Sedona and back, about 100 miles each way)

My commute from May-July was right around 40 miles a day (19.4 each way--18 miles freeway), plus another 2-5 miles a day if I went to lunch or dinner. My new commute is about 12 miles a day, all city.

Interesting stuff to ponder.

[PurdueGuy]

One thing I wonder--the electric range is 40 miles, so after that it would run on the gasoline engine? i.e. would this car be useful for a road trip from Phoenix to LA (about 400 miles) and back for the weekend, for example? (or even up to Sedona and back, about 100 miles each way)

My commute from May-July was right around 40 miles a day (19.4 each way--18 miles freeway), plus another 2-5 miles a day if I went to lunch or dinner. My new commute is about 12 miles a day, all city.

Interesting stuff to ponder.

You would have to gas it up along the way, but yeah, you can drive it anywhere like a normal car. The only difference between this and a regular hybrid (in a functional how-you-use-it sense) is that you get a notable all-electric range. After that, you drive it, gas it, park it like a normal car.

[Robert Hall]

You would have to gas it up along the way, but yeah, you can drive it anywhere like a normal car. The only difference between this and a regular hybrid (in a functional how-you-use-it sense) is that you get a notable all-electric range. After that, you drive it, gas it, park it like a normal car.

That's what I assumed, wasn't sure..I haven't seen the specs on the gasoline engine--# of cylinders, hp, fuel tank size, etc.

[GXT]

That's what I assumed, wasn't sure..I haven't seen the specs on the gasoline engine--# of cylinders, hp, fuel tank size, etc.

GM originally claimed 50 MPG when running on the gas engine. At that time the engine was spec'd at a 1L or (1.3L, I can't remember which off-hand) turbo 3cyl. Now they have moved to a non-turbo version of the cruze 4cyl engine.

Two thoughts:

1) The 50 MPG estimate was probably much like the 40 mile range estimate... namely city. So highway fuel economy will probably be less.

2) I believe GM is claiming 40 MPG (this time highway, of course) for the cruze. GM has to experience some additional losses when going from generator to batteries to electric motor. On the plus side they should be able to control the RPM of the engine to run at whatever makes most sense.

Based on the above I'm guessing 45-50 MPG city and 35-40 MPG highway. It would appear that if you cannot charge the Volt from a plug then it would be a REALLY bad idea to buy one.

[GXT]

One thing I wonder--the electric range is 40 miles, so after that it would run on the gasoline engine? i.e. would this car be useful for a road trip from Phoenix to LA (about 400 miles) and back for the weekend, for example? (or even up to Sedona and back, about 100 miles each way)

My commute from May-July was right around 40 miles a day (19.4 each way--18 miles freeway), plus another 2-5 miles a day if I went to lunch or dinner. My new commute is about 12 miles a day, all city.

Interesting stuff to ponder.

Your new commute brings up another criticism. Although at first a 12 mile commute would seem ideal for the Volt, it actually means you are paying for, and hauling around, a lot of batteries that you are almost never going to use.

If you drove 12 miles/day at 50MPG from an insight/prius type hybrid @ $4/gallon you would spend $350/year. The Volt would cost $73 in elec. That's a $277/year savings with the Volt and a 70+ year payback on the extra up-front cost of the Volt.

That is why I keep saying GM made a mistake when they picked the range. They picked a range to cover 80% of the consumers but in doing so raised the price and lowered their volume to only a couple % of the market. I don't recall the exact stats, but I believe GM could have had a battery half the size of what is in the volt and still had a range that covered 50% of consumer's commutes. That probably would have made the Volt hit their target of sub $30,000 and allowed them to have built more product. And maybe they could even break even on the Volt.

It was totally ass-backwards thinking... at least if we were talking about something that they intended to make a viable product. But then if they were trying to do that they wouldn't be talking about it. As PR it makes a lot more sense.

[RBB]

1) The 50 MPG estimate was probably much like the 40 mile range estimate... namely city. So highway fuel economy will probably be less.

I might be wrong on this, but in theory, it's the opposite if you think about it.

The gasolene engine is simply used as a generator to charge the battery and/or supply electricity to the powertrain, correct? So, it would theoretically burn fuel at a constant rate independently of the vehicle's speed or accelleration needs.

Say, and I'm just pulling these numbers out of my backside, that the Volt's engine burns through a gallon of gas an hour at 2500 RPM, which is the optimal speed to generate sufficient charge. If you averaged a speed of 60 mph, that'd be equivilant to 60 mpg, assuming constant use of the engine (60 miles in an hour divided by 1 gallon of gas used in an hour). The same engine, running constantly at the same speed, however would only return you 20 mpg if you averaged 20 MPH in rush hour.

Of course, the engine won't run constantly - it'll only run long enough to recharge the batteries, then shut off until the 30% battery life threshold is reached again. But, the point is in this particular type of hybrid powerplant that high speeds can mean less gas burned per mile, unlike your Prius/Malibu- 2-mode-style hybrids.

-RBB

[CARBIZ]

Your new commute brings up another criticism. Although at first a 12 mile commute would seem ideal for the Volt, it actually means you are paying for, and hauling around, a lot of batteries that you are almost never going to use.

If you drove 12 miles/day at 50MPG from an insight/prius type hybrid @ $4/gallon you would spend $350/year. The Volt would cost $73 in elec. That's a $277/year savings with the Volt and a 70+ year payback on the extra up-front cost of the Volt.

That is why I keep saying GM made a mistake when they picked the range. They picked a range to cover 80% of the consumers but in doing so raised the price and lowered their volume to only a couple % of the market. I don't recall the exact stats, but I believe GM could have had a battery half the size of what is in the volt and still had a range that covered 50% of consumer's commutes. That probably would have made the Volt hit their target of sub $30,000 and allowed them to have built more product. And maybe they could even break even on the Volt.

It was totally ass-backwards thinking... at least if we were talking about something that they intended to make a viable product. But then if they were trying to do that they wouldn't be talking about it. As PR it makes a lot more sense.

A lot can happen between now and then. I am confident (hope?) that as production begins and more real world driving stats come in, the battery technology will grow by leaps and bounds. Prices will drop and range will increase.

Perhaps a little simplistic, but anyone who has owned cell phones over the past 15+ years will attest to how much better batteries are today than a decade ago.

Most people I have spoken with who care a whit about the environment are quite excited about the Volt. Just the thought of not having to run on gas at all is enticement to many. I, myself, only drive 25 miles a day, so even with errands, I would most likely never have to fill up the tank.

Another interesting aspect about the Volt is that for quite a few people (me included) the Volt could be plugged in at night when electricity rates are cheap and generator stations are idled. One of the drawbacks of nuclear power is that it cannot be 'scaled back' when demand slumps at night, so most utilities can never hope to run with more than 50-60% of their supply from nuclear. Thinking of a million or more plug-ins recharging over night could go a long way to managing our electrical supplies better.

Clean coal and nuclear are the only 2 energy sources that we have in abundance and are not reliant on unfriendly powers for. The more vehicles we can have run off those two sources, the better off we will be.

[GXT]

I might be wrong on this, but in theory, it's the opposite if you think about it.

The gasolene engine is simply used as a generator to charge the battery and/or supply electricity to the powertrain, correct? So, it would theoretically burn fuel at a constant rate independently of the vehicle's speed or accelleration needs.

Say, and I'm just pulling these numbers out of my backside, that the Volt's engine burns through a gallon of gas an hour at 2500 RPM, which is the optimal speed to generate sufficient charge. If you averaged a speed of 60 mph, that'd be equivilant to 60 mpg, assuming constant use of the engine (60 miles in an hour divided by 1 gallon of gas used in an hour). The same engine, running constantly at the same speed, however would only return you 20 mpg if you averaged 20 MPH in rush hour.

Of course, the engine won't run constantly - it'll only run long enough to recharge the batteries, then shut off until the 30% battery life threshold is reached again. But, the point is in this particular type of hybrid powerplant that high speeds can mean less gas burned per mile, unlike your Prius/Malibu- 2-mode-style hybrids.

-RBB

The engine can run at any speed GM wants it to. I understand that it will run at one of 3 or 4 fixed speeds depending on conditions.

The reason why the Volt (and hybrids) give such good city fuel economy relative to a traditional car is that they gain energy back while slowing down. That doesn't happen on the highway. On the highway the engine/battery have to provide all the energy. Once the battery power is at 30% it is pretty much all gas engine. Therefore the it is fair to compare the Cruze to the Volt as they have the same engine and chasis. The Volt will be hauling around probably an extra 15-20% of the mass of the Cruze. On the other hand it should be more aerodynamic. The Volt will lose some efficiency over the Cruze when it generates electricity and when it turns the electric motor. But the Volt will also be able to run at optimal engine speed (but then the Cruze should be geared to be running at optimal engine speed on the highway as well).

All in all, I don't see how the Volt could offer highway efficiency equivalent to a Cruze or a traditional hybrid. This further contributes to the niche market of the Volt.. if you do a lot of highway driving the Volt is a poor choice.

On a related note, apparently the generator is only able to supply about half (?) of the power that the batteries can supply. Therefore it is likely that once the generator is on it will mostly stay on except in the most non-taxing of situations.

[CSpec]

So, if you're in engine mode and you floor it, do the RPMs of the gas engine stay constant at first? That would be an odd experience to get accustomed to.

[GXT]

A lot can happen between now and then. I am confident (hope?) that as production begins and more real world driving stats come in, the battery technology will grow by leaps and bounds. Prices will drop and range will increase.

No doubt the batteries will get cheaper. But they aren't cheap yet. So any way you look at it if GM was serious about making a car that appealed to a lot of people AND that a lot of people could actually possess then they should have started with a much smaller battery. They could have increased the battery size as it made sense. I think this is the major reason why GM was pretty much alone in making this move. What they are doing just doesn't make any sense beyond PR and Prius-envy.

Most people I have spoken with who care a whit about the environment are quite excited about the Volt. Just the thought of not having to run on gas at all is enticement to many. I, myself, only drive 25 miles a day, so even with errands, I would most likely never have to fill up the tank.

Most people haven't sat down and done the math. Some who have done the math are doing it wrong. Anyone who does it right would no longer be excited. If you only drive 25 miles/day then the Volt makes no economic sense for you. You are paying for ~$7,000 of batteries and hauling around and extra ~180 lbs you will rarely use (assuming GM's 40 mile claimed range is correct). That is on top of the fact that the battery that you will use still won't pay for itself regardless of the $7,000 wasted on top of it.

Clean coal and nuclear are the only 2 energy sources that we have in abundance and are not reliant on unfriendly powers for. The more vehicles we can have run off those two sources, the better off we will be.

I agree, but I'm still not excited about paying 45-$55,000 CDN for a Volt. Not that they will be available outside of perhaps Toronto and Vancouver anyways. The time will come, but GM is forcing it way too early for anything but PR.

[aaaantoine]

I hope the center stack "buttons" have tactile feedback. They sure don't look like it. Aside from that, a superb interior!

The exterior reminds me too much of the Prius, though, and that makes me sad.

[ZL-1]

So, if you're in engine mode and you floor it, do the RPMs of the gas engine stay constant at first? That would be an odd experience to get accustomed to.

Yeah, but the high and constant torque of the electric engine would make the acceleration experience... well.... electrifying!