Alpha Mail: Caddy's 3 Series rival is go

[BigPontiac]

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[PurdueGuy]

Anyone else find it humorous that for so long, smaller Caddies were flops (Cimmaron, Catera), then the CTS came along, and now the smaller ones are the best styled & best sellers, if not the best all-around? Looking forward to seeing how this Caddy turns out.

[the_yellow_dart]

How has the BLS done in Europe?

ps. Isn't the CTS already a 3er competitor? That's how I would place it...

[The O.C.]

ps. Isn't the CTS already a 3er competitor? That's how I would place it...

CTS has moved up a bit in price.

A comparably-equipped 3-Series is now less MSRP than CTS (loaded CTSs top $50K now)......and when you factor in our crappy leases, alot less expensive to lease.

I think there's plenty of room for an Alpha Cadillac.....say sized around the 3-Series, but priced like a 1-series......

[Oracle of Delphi]

Was there ever any doubt? Now expect to see a Buick and Chevy Alpha soon.

[smk4565]

This car should have been in development years ago, at least it is finally coming. How about pricing this like a 3-series and overhauling the CTS and making CTS $50,000 base. A 335i starts at $39,000 and can easily hit near $50k. And stopping the priced like a 1-series but sized like a 3-series or priced like a 3-series but sized like a 5-series, because the imports have been whopping on Cadillac for years. The GM beancounters need to stop nickle and diming, their engineers need to get behind the wheel of a 550i and E550, and the design department has to stop holding back, and make the BTS better than the 335i and CTS better than the Jaguar XF (the new #1 midsize luxury sedan according to Edmunds, Motortrend and CAR Magazine).

[Robert Hall]

Was there ever any doubt? Now expect to see a Buick and Chevy Alpha soon.

I'm surprised...I had assumed Alpha would get cancelled and GM would do something predictable like a Delta or Epsilon II based small Caddy..

[FAPTurbo]

And stopping the priced like a 1-series but sized like a 3-series or priced like a 3-series but sized like a 5-series

Why?

[Drew Dowdell]

This car should have been in development years ago, at least it is finally coming. How about pricing this like a 3-series and overhauling the CTS and making CTS $50,000 base. A 335i starts at $39,000 and can easily hit near $50k. And stopping the priced like a 1-series but sized like a 3-series or priced like a 3-series but sized like a 5-series, because the imports have been whopping on Cadillac for years. The GM beancounters need to stop nickle and diming, their engineers need to get behind the wheel of a 550i and E550, and the design department has to stop holding back, and make the BTS better than the 335i and CTS better than the Jaguar XF (the new #1 midsize luxury sedan according to Edmunds, Motortrend and CAR Magazine).

You realize a good part of the 5-series price premium is exchange rate.....

no.... I thought you didn't.

[Northstar]

Was there ever any doubt? Now expect to see a Buick and Chevy Alpha soon.

The Buick is pointless... dump the money into the Cadillac and give Buick a Delta II-based vehicle if they need a small car.

[Robert Hall]

The Buick is pointless... dump the money into the Cadillac and give Buick a Delta II-based vehicle if they need a small car.

Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

[Northstar]

Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

Pontiac should be getting a 3rd Alpha if there is one. Pontiac and Cadillac alone would probably be the best two, but of course Chevy has to have one of everything. Pontiac has no business pawning off a Chevy rebadge. Just kill the brand if that's all it's going to be.

[Camino LS6]

Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

NO!

In fact, the alpha Buick should go to Pontiac instead. WTF do Buick buyers care about RWD?

Moronic.

[Chazman]

Pontiac should be getting a 3rd Alpha if there is one. Pontiac and Cadillac alone would probably be the best two, but of course Chevy has to have one of everything. Pontiac has no business pawning off a Chevy rebadge. Just kill the brand if that's all it's going to be.

One of everything? I've heard talk that Chevy may get more than just one Alpha.....

[Croc]

Pontiac should be getting a 3rd Alpha if there is one. Pontiac and Cadillac alone would probably be the best two, but of course Chevy has to have one of everything. Pontiac has no business pawning off a Chevy rebadge. Just kill the brand if that's all it's going to be.

I would agree, and say IMO a Delta II Buick and Alpha Pontiac make more sense to me than to flip those platforms. But GM is so myopic IMO.

[Robert Hall]

I would agree, and say IMO a Delta II Buick and Alpha Pontiac make more sense to me than to flip those platforms. But GM is so myopic IMO.

Yes, esp. since they are going to be in the same showroom.. a sporty compact RWD model for Pontiac makes more sense than a RWD entry lux model for Buick.

[Camino LS6]

The only car brands that should get RWD on a regular basis are Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Caddy and Pontiac should be almost entirely RWD, Chevy should get its traditional RWDs, and the occasional model should show up elsewhere (Buick Riviera).

[smk4565]

No one should get an Alpha besides Cadillac. There isn't a heavily rebated, 40% rental car volume brand using 3-series platforms. If this car is supposed to compete with a 3-series, it should be $33-49,00 and $62,000 for a V-series.

A 5-series is cheaper here than it would be in the UK. The 3-series is built in South Carolina, yet commands a premium price. BMWs don't cost more than Cadillac's and the E-class doesn't start at $53,000 because of exchange rates. They cost that much because the materials used are more expensive and the engineering is more intense. Plus, those brands can command a premium because of reputation, people are willing to pay $50k for a compact car because it's "the ultimate driving machine."

Cadillac should be trying to out do them, not get 80 or 90% of the way there and figure they'll just have a $5k lower MSRP then add an employee discount to it to move metal.

[Robert Hall]

A 5-series is cheaper here than it would be in the UK. The 3-series is built in South Carolina, yet commands a premium price.

Invalid. The X5, X6, and Z4 come from S. Carolina... The 3-series is not built in the US.

Edited September 16, 2008 by moltar

[Oracle of Delphi]

Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

[thegriffon]

A CTS is $15K cheaper than a comparable 5-series. That money buys a lot of extra refinement, expensive materials (more aluminum e.g.) to cut weight and more technology. GM can't compete long term without substantially increasing the CTS' price. It is slowly doing that, but exchange rate moves have forced BMW to do likewise.

I doubt Alpha is cost-effective just with Cadillac's volume. They are a long way from matching the 3-series' sales levels. I agree that the Alpha should be a Pontiac rather than a Buick, but the Chinese market demands a Buick to match off against the rwd Toyota Reiz (Mark X/Cressida).

[Croc]

The only car brands that should get RWD on a regular basis are Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Caddy and Pontiac should be almost entirely RWD, Chevy should get its traditional RWDs, and the occasional model should show up elsewhere (Buick Riviera).

I don't want to be too much of a purist, but a RWD Riviera just seems...very odd.

Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

WHAT COMPETITION?!?! Good lord, unless the Pontiac gets every single one of the nifty little features the Cadillac gets, has identical dimensions, and near-identical styling...hell no, I can't see those two being cross-shopped EVEN THEN!!

This is why GM is so fracking retarded: they do not yet understand that vehicles with price differentials of $20K DO NOT COMPETE! Being a "value leader" is nothing more than putting a "RENT ME!" sticker on a car. Who cross-shops the SLR and XLR? Those two vehicles actually are in the same segment...yet here's Cadillac stressing about a RWD Pontiac stealing its thunder. HELLO? Cadillac? Where was all the outrage in the 90s when you could get an OldsmoBuiCadillac Sedan d'Aurora Avenue?

[endeavorc]

Who in their right mind would think that a 30K G8 wagon will compete with a 40-50K CTS wagon

Not all of us are willing to spend 40K for a wagon. This is the main reason that my 9-3 will probably be my LAST GM product. I have been buying GM exclusively for the last 20 years and it amazes the mindset of GM management.

My wish list for what it is worth:

Pontiac - affordable (notice I did not say cheap) performance vehicles:

Alpha sedan, coupe, and wagon similar to the Tourana (sp?) concept

Kappa or next gen based 2 seater

Next gen G8 equivalent

3 platforms (unless the kappa moves to an alpha based platform), and 6 models. This fills the need for most people looking for sporty cars.

Cadillac - Premium cars

[Drew Dowdell]

Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

Chevy Cruze, Pontiac G5, Saturn Astra, and Saab 9-3.... so I guess the answer is... "yes".

[91z4me]

I doubt Alpha is cost-effective just with Cadillac's volume. They are a long way from matching the 3-series' sales levels. I agree that the Alpha should be a Pontiac rather than a Buick, but the Chinese market demands a Buick to match off against the rwd Toyota Reiz (Mark X/Cressida).

I am surprised nobody else mentioned this.

Who in their right mind would think that a 30K G8 wagon will compete with a 40-50K CTS wagon

I would. Look if I am going out to buy a sports wagon I want RWD, nice interior, good looks w/ good practicality. I don't shop based upon a dollar amount up. I shop a dollar amount down. If I can afford $50k but can get 80% of the looks, features, and practicality for $30k why should I spend the difference?

[enzl]

Chevy Cruze, Pontiac G5, Saturn Astra, and Saab 9-3.... so I guess the answer is... "yes".

Note: The question was "Do they need 4 Deltas?"

The answer is simply: No. The Chevy, Saturn & Pontiac are redundant. The Saab a waste of precious resources.

None of this has stopped GM before, however. The 'good' news is that Lehman & AIG's misadventures have knocked GM off the front pages of the b-sections.

[z28luvr01]

Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

Why does Caddy care? Exactly how badly can Pontiac hurt Caddy if Pontiac only exists in GMNA and Caddy is global?

[Robert Hall]

I don't want to be too much of a purist, but a RWD Riviera just seems...very odd.

Why? The best Rivieras were RWD...

WHAT COMPETITION?!?! Good lord, unless the Pontiac gets every single one of the nifty little features the Cadillac gets, has identical dimensions, and near-identical styling...hell no, I can't see those two being cross-shopped EVEN THEN!!

Yes, but remember, GM's brands consider each other competition.... I can't see them cross-shopped either, different target demographics..

[Drew Dowdell]

Why? The best Rivieras were RWD...

Yes, but remember, GM's brands consider each other competition.... I can't see them cross-shopped either, different target demographics..

The most popular ones were FWD.

What Riviera sold better than the 79-85 Generation?

[endeavorc]

I am surprised nobody else mentioned this.

I would. Look if I am going out to buy a sports wagon I want RWD, nice interior, good looks w/ good practicality. I don't shop based upon a dollar amount up. I shop a dollar amount down. If I can afford $50k but can get 80% of the looks, features, and practicality for $30k why should I spend the difference?

But where does it stop...

BMW 5 series / CTS or CTS /G8... beyond performance numbers and features, people look at appearance and the badges (status symbol). While the CTS is VERY nice looking and I could afford it, I would rather have the G8.

Some people would choose the BMW over the CTS and some would choose the CTS over the G8. We (the consumers) should have the choice, not building the right vehicle makes the choice for the consumer.

Just my .02

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

NO!

In fact, the alpha Buick should go to Pontiac instead. WTF do Buick buyers care about RWD?

Moronic.

+1

(Unless Zeta is going to be phased out in China as well)

[RBB]

Is it just me, or does MT's '3 Series rival' sketch look like a Sentra?

-RBB

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

A CTS is $15K cheaper than a comparable 5-series. That money buys a lot of extra refinement, expensive materials (more aluminum e.g.) to cut weight and more technology. GM can't compete long term without substantially increasing the CTS' price. It is slowly doing that, but exchange rate moves have forced BMW to do likewise.

I doubt Alpha is cost-effective just with Cadillac's volume. They are a long way from matching the 3-series' sales levels. I agree that the Alpha should be a Pontiac rather than a Buick, but the Chinese market demands a Buick to match off against the rwd Toyota Reiz (Mark X/Cressida).

Badge it as a Pontiac in NA and a Buick in China...

Same sales channel right?

(AS I predicted the other day) I guess Cadillac doesn't want the heat from Pontiac, since Cadillac can't command the right premium for it's cars.

WHAT COMPETITION?!?! Good lord, unless the Pontiac gets every single one of the nifty little features the Cadillac gets, has identical dimensions, and near-identical styling...hell no, I can't see those two being cross-shopped EVEN THEN!!

Good point.

Add to that the fact that Chevrolet is supposedly getting both an Alpha sedan and Camro and it makes even less sense. If Cadillac thought Pontiac was going to eat there lunch, just wait and see what 'heritage' inspired chevrolet models do to them. Not to mention, Buick is getting a model as well which is even closer to competing with them.

Sounds like political to me. Some faction in GM wants Pontiac to die... Plain and simple.

GM's brands consider each other competition

Anyone who is this stuck in the past should be fired on the spot. (PCS included)

As usual, GM's logic is more F888ed up than a meth head on speed. Let us PRAY that GM has not made the ignorant choice of giving Buick an Alpha model in favor of Pontiac.

Besides, same company, same money from the sales, same bank account.

If GM can't control it's infighting better than this, the company will not see another 20 years, much less 100.

Edited September 16, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Oracle of Delphi]

Now why would you want to fire me?

As a loyal German GME soldier, I can honestly say, "I was only following orders!". :AH-HA_wink:

[Northstar]

Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

The CTS is $10-15k more expensive than a G8, how is that competition? Some people might go down from the Cadillac to the Pontiac, but GM would get many more sales from people who can't afford the CTS. CTS also offers AWD.

[Northstar]

Now why would you want to fire me?

As a loyal German GME soldier, I can honestly say, "I was only following orders!". :AH-HA_wink:

Perhaps you should have thought about what orders were given before you performed them, to insure they made sense (ie your boss was not intoxicated)?

[Camino LS6]

Well, whoever made this decision had to have been intoxicated.

It's just plain stupid.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Perhaps you should have thought about what orders were given before you performed them, to insure they made sense (ie your boss was not intoxicated)?

They make sense, just not to you yet.

Saturn/Saab has Opel. Buick has China, Chevy is a world brand and needs no help. Cadillac, worldwide luxury brand. GMC has Chevy. Pontiac was going to be paired up with Holden, but in this economic/gasoline/green climate that idea is dead, so Pontiac and Holden are in freefall. Pontiac is an American brand only, that's bad, and Holden is losing a huge portion of their staff either through transfers or being laid off, and Holden's projects are being moved to other GM centers. Is the writing on the wall for Pontiac and Holden? That remains to be seen, but it's not looking good.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

They make sense, just not to you yet.

Saturn/Saab has Opel. Buick has China, Chevy is a world brand and needs no help. Cadillac, worldwide luxury brand. GMC has Chevy. Pontiac was going to be paired up with Holden, but in this economic/gasoline/green climate that idea is dead, so Pontiac and Holden are in freefall. Pontiac is an American brand only, that's bad, and Holden is losing a huge portion of their staff either through transfers or being laid off, and Holden's projects are being moved to other GM centers. Is the writing on the wall for Pontiac and Holden? That remains to be seen, but it's not looking good.

If things actually go that way, I guess I'll just have to buy my last GM car and remember when I cared.

[ocnblu]

The Alpha platform BELONGS under an array of Pontiacs. It is sized right for the times, it is RWD, and it is affordable. It would absolutely REVITALIZE the entire Pontiac brand and propel them well into the future. Coupe, sedan, convertible, wagon... what could be a more perfect fit for Pontiac? All four bodystyles to sell more of the platform... all at Pontiac. Seems such a NO BRAINER. How stupid can GM management be? The Alpha platform does NOT fit Buick at all. An Alpha Buick would be way too close to Cadillac's version... yet "Cadillac" has no problem with it? BULL!

Cadillac sedan/hardtop convertible/wagon

Pontiac coupe/sedan/cloth top convertible/wagon

Chevrolet coupe

That's what GMNA's Alpha lineup needs to be... it's a natural, instinctive lineup... nothing forced, everything FITS.

[91z4me]

Cadillac sedan/hardtop convertible/wagon

Pontiac coupe/sedan/cloth top convertible/wagon

Chevrolet coupe

That's what GMNA's Alpha lineup needs to be... it's a natural, instinctive lineup... nothing forced, everything FITS.[/b]

Some people can be so blinded by loyalty that they can't see what is plainly to many models.

Try this on for size:

Caddy: Sedan, Wagon

Buick: Sedan

Pontiac: Coupe

Opel/Saturn: Wagon

[Camino LS6]

I can't argue with that recipe, Ocn.

[Robert Hall]

Some people can be so blinded by loyalty that they can't see what is plainly to many models.

Try this on for size:

Caddy: Sedan, Wagon

Buick: Sedan

Pontiac: Coupe

Opel/Saturn: Wagon

Caddy needs a coupe and convertible to be competitive w/ the 1 and 3 series, though, as well as the IS and G37 (both of which have convertibles coming).

[ocnblu]

91z: Alpha doesn't fit with Buick or Saturn. And Chevy needs it for the next Camaro. Pontiac should have it spread over its lineup the widest, as the platform fits perfectly with Pontiac's natural mission.

[Oracle of Delphi]

91z: Alpha doesn't fit with Buick or Saturn. And Chevy needs it for the next Camaro. Pontiac should have it spread over its lineup the widest, as the platform fits perfectly with Pontiac's natural mission.

From what I see internally, it looks like Mission Over to me!

[ocnblu]

I know that's not what you want. Admit it.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I know that's not what you want. Admit it.

I can't be hypnotized!

[ocnblu]

You lie. CPF swings something in front of your face and you get verrrry sleepy, next thing you know you awake under his desk and wonder how you got there. Edited September 17, 2008 by ocnblu

[Camino LS6]

From what I see internally, it looks like Mission Over to me!

Internally?

Sounds like some surgery is in order - there is a cancer to remove in there.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You lie. Carl-Pecker swings something in front of your face and you get verrrry sleepy, next thing you know you awake under his desk and wonder how you got there.

Oh no, I work for him willingly. No need to be hypnotized!