FUTURE PRODUCTS -- GENERAL MOTORS

[Oracle of Delphi]

Jamie LaReau

Automotive News

August 25, 2008 - 12:01 am ET

At Buick, it's nearly all about China — the brand's biggest market.

Buick's redesigned mid-sized car will be sold here and in China. A small sedan created for China may be sold here. A stylish, rear-wheel-drive sedan went on sale last year in China and was penciled in for the United States. But GM's financial plight scuttled the U.S. plan for the rwd sedan, as well as production plans for a sharp-looking coupe concept that debuted last year at the Shanghai auto show.

Small car: General Motors is likely to bring a redesigned compact sedan to the United States for the 2012 model year, a front-wheel-drive vehicle built on GM's new global Delta vehicle architecture. That car will be sold in China.

Still to be decided is whether Buick or Pontiac will market the car. No decision has been made on where that car would be assembled.

LaCrosse: The Invicta concept car, unveiled this year, is essentially a mildly camouflaged 2010 LaCrosse. The Buick sedan is being developed on GM's new global mid-sized, fwd vehicle architecture. The car was co-engineered and co-designed with GM's China operations.

Lucerne: Buick's top sedan gets a new lease on life. The fwd cruiser had been scheduled to be discontinued during the 2010 model year. A redesigned 2011 model was planned, with the Lucerne switching to GM's global rwd Zeta vehicle architecture.

But "serious fuel economy issues" killed the rwd Buick sedan and rwd Chevrolet Impala, says one GM insider.

The Lucerne will continue as is with only minor upgrades. How many years? As long as its size and fuel economy fit into U.S. federal regulatory standards, says one GM insider.

Interestingly, China already is selling that rwd Buick. The car is assembled by GM's Holden subsidiary in Australia and exported to China as the Park Avenue.

Riviera: GM no longer can afford to develop the car that would have added some excitement to the product line. Plans for the sexy two-door coupe based on the highly praised Riviera concept are dead.

Enclave: In terms of styling, the popular crossover essentially will remain unchanged for several years. The Enclave may get a freshening for the 2011 model year. The changes in corporate average fuel economy and GM's financial problems make more extensive changes unlikely for some time. All of GM's Lambda-based crossovers are candidates for a Two Mode hybrid.

Link: http://www.autonews.com/article/20080825/ANA03/808250305

[Paolino]

Sigh.

[cire]

Sigh.

Ditto

[VenSeattle]

I don't think Pontiac needs a rebadged compact Cruze and a rebadged compact Chinese Buick. The compact Chinese Buick should be sold in the US as a Buick... with standard Quiet Tuning and Buick's standard warranty.

If Lucerne is to "soldier on" like the DTS, then the Lucerne needs a 6-sp automatic and 3.6l V6... which is assumed as planned for the DTS.

[Paolino]

I don't think Pontiac needs a rebadged compact Cruze and a rebadged compact Chinese Buick. The compact Chinese Buick should be sold in the US as a Buick... with standard Quiet Tuning and Buick's standard warranty.

If Lucerne is to "soldier on" like the DTS, then the Lucerne needs a 6-sp automatic and 3.6l V6... which is assumed as planned for the DTS.

How is it assumed as planned for the DTS? I didn't hear anything to that.

What really upsets me is they're essentially Crown Vic/Grand Marquing the Lucerne. They could update the interior dramatically and refresh the exterior with some new sheet metal and an edgier grille to at least try and keep it fresh. Minor updates to me means packing/color changes, maybe the addition of a feature or two.

It's upsetting--I love the Lucerne, would love it to become a big player, but it seems it won't be given the chance.

[VenSeattle]

Just based off of what was said in the Cadillac topic. I just took it as an assumption... although the point is valid. The Northstar V8 is still planned for phased out soon.

[Paolino]

Just based off of what was said in the Cadillac topic. I just took it as an assumption... although the point is valid. The Northstar V8 is still planned for phased out soon.

Ah, I saw the part about the 3.6L, but not anything about a 6-speed being offered.

[smk4565]

The Lucerne platform is already 14 years old, come 2011 that car is going to be ancient, and that is their flagship. Much like the DTS does to Cadillac, it just makes the brand seem outdated and geared toward senior citizens. A Buick car on Delta could work if it is nice, and not just a rebadge.

[Northstar]

GM has its head up its ass still, it will not survive with plans like these. Neither Buick nor Pontiac really needs a Cruze-based vehicle when there is already going to be the Cruze, Astra, and 9-3, but if one of them must have it, it should go to Buick, only because the Pontiac would essentially be a Cruze and nothing more. On the contrary, Pontiac would benefit much more from an Alpha-based compact than Buick as the Buick would be priced much more closely to the Cadillac Alpha.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Again, Pontiac will never get any Opels of any kind. Alpha from my understanding will not be going to Pontiac.

[VenSeattle]

The Lucerne platform is already 14 years old, come 2011 that car is going to be ancient, and that is their flagship. Much like the DTS does to Cadillac, it just makes the brand seem outdated and geared toward senior citizens. A Buick car on Delta could work if it is nice, and not just a rebadge.

Yes and no. The G-Platform has received several updates and changes since 1994. I don't personally agree with the strategy, but the Lucerne/DTS platform is not identical to the 1st gen Aurora.

If the platform cannot accommodate a modern power train, then it should be phased out. If the Lucerne/DTS can be upgraded to handle the 6-sp auto, then I'm perfectly fine with a 3rd generation of vehicles off of the G-Platform.

[Paolino]

Yes and no. The G-Platform has received several updates and changes since 1994. I don't personally agree with the strategy, but the Lucerne/DTS platform is not identical to the 1st gen Aurora.

If the platform cannot accommodate a modern power train, then it should be phased out. If the Lucerne/DTS can be upgraded to handle the 6-sp auto, then I'm perfectly fine with a 3rd generation of vehicles off of the G-Platform.

+1

If they firm up the suspension a tad, and it can handle the 3.6L DI with a 6-speed, all they'd have to do is tweak the interior and I'd be happy.

[Oracle of Delphi]

+1

If they firm up the suspension a tad, and it can handle the 3.6L DI with a 6-speed, all they'd have to do is tweak the interior and I'd be happy.

Can I take your order?

[Robert Hall]

Yes and no. The G-Platform has received several updates and changes since 1994. I don't personally agree with the strategy, but the Lucerne/DTS platform is not identical to the 1st gen Aurora.

If the platform cannot accommodate a modern power train, then it should be phased out. If the Lucerne/DTS can be upgraded to handle the 6-sp auto, then I'm perfectly fine with a 3rd generation of vehicles off of the G-Platform.

I don't see the point in spending more on an old platform when they have a perfectly good new platform that they are underutilizing...(Zeta).

[Paolino]

Can I take your order?

If that happens and I don't have a new car by then, I'd greatly consider it.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Always like to help.

[VenSeattle]

Can I take your order?

Can you place 2 orders?

Can you make mine with Head-Up Display?

[VenSeattle]

I don't see the point in spending more on an old platform when they have a perfectly good new platform that they are underutilizing...(Zeta).

There's nothing wrong with the G-Platform except for the power train. The overhangs are no greater than the foreign competition. Interior dimensions are very accommodating including trunk space. A Lucerne with 3.6l & 6-speed would be a perfectly fine replacement for my V6-powered Park Avenue Ultra.

[Paolino]

There's nothing wrong with the G-Platform except for the power train. The overhangs are no greater than the foreign competition. Interior dimensions are very accommodating including trunk space. A Lucerne with 3.6l & 6-speed would be a perfectly fine replacement for my V6-powered Park Avenue Ultra.

And the DI 3.6 would be a fair replacement for the "PA ultra". It'd be a nice CXL.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Can you place 2 orders?

Can you make mine with Head-Up Display?

Well HUD is a selling point with me also, as you most likely know.

[Paolino]

Well HUD is a selling point with me also, as you most likely know.

I wouldn't mind HUD, but there are so many other features I'd love to see in Buicks before that.

[VenSeattle]

I love HUD in my current PA and would like to keep that feature. The updated HUD in the Corvette & STS would be very nice.

But... while we're composing wish lists for Lucerne upgrades...

Exterior:

Xenon/HID Headlights - (like the Enclave)

LED Tail lights - (Like the 2010 LaCrosse & DTS)

front foglamps on all trims (just looks better - more youthful. Simpler to build with one facia too)

Interior:

Updated dash to help tie all three models together (2010 LaCrosse, Lucerne, & Enclave)

Mood lighting (if included in the 2010 LaCrosse) with possible LED gauges?

HUD

Memory driver & front passenger seats (All Lexus sedans including the ES350 offer them)

Heated rear seats

Rear power sunshade

Rear manual passenger window sunshades

Powertrain:

DI 3.6l with 6-speed automatic.

Make the Lucerne just two trim levels with 5-passenger seating only... so drop the CX. The Lucerne needs to be positioned above the 2010 LaCrosse. The CX trim would prevent that.

I wouldn't desire a Chinese Cadillac SLS if the above Lucerne was offered.

[smk4565]

The G-platform was fine back in the day, I have a G-platform I agree that there is nothing wrong with it. However, for $40k or more cars, there is better out there now. In 3 years there will be even better stuff out there, the G-platform is just past its prime, as is the Northstar. I am pretty sure the G-body can't accommodate the 6-speed, and the overhangs on the Lucerene are bad.

Buick sold 309,000 cars in 2004, yet is on pace for 180,000 or so this year. This brand is sinking, it is almost impossible for them to get younger buyers at this point.

[VenSeattle]

I am pretty sure the G-body can't accommodate the 6-speed, and the overhangs on the Lucerene are bad.

The overhangs on the Lucerne are almost identical in length to one of its closest competitors: Toyota Avalon... which is based on the "thoroughly modern" Camry platform.

Toyota Avalon

Length: 197.2 in

Wheelbase: 111.0 in

Overhang: 86.2 in

Buick Lucerne

Length: 203.2 in

Wheelbase: 115.0 in

Overhang: 88.2 in

Your G-Platform Aurora shows that the platform's overhangs do not need to be excessive. I think this is the third or fourth time I've pointed this out to you.

Buick sold 309,000 cars in 2004, yet is on pace for 180,000 or so this year. This brand is sinking, it is almost impossible for them to get younger buyers at this point.

How many models did Buick sell in 2004 compared to 2008? Yeah...

And Buick has already started attracting younger buyers... Don't you read any of the articles posted on this site?

[VenSeattle]

I don't see the point in spending more on an old platform when they have a perfectly good new platform that they are underutilizing...(Zeta).

I'm sure part of it has to do with weight:

Loaded large Buick Lucerne Super (with all the additional sound-deadening material + size)

4,004 lbs (203.2 in - length)

Loaded large Cadillac DTS

4,009 lbs (207.6 in - length)

Loaded midsize Pontiac G8 GT

3995 lbs (196.1 in - length)

Loaded Holden V8 Caprice

4160 lbs (1887 Kg)

[Robert Hall]

I'm sure part of it has to do with weight:

Loaded large Buick Lucerne Super (with all the additional sound-deadening material + size)

4,004 lbs (203.2 in - length)

Loaded large Cadillac DTS

4,009 lbs (207.6 in - length)

Loaded midsize Pontiac G8 GT

3995 lbs (196.1 in - length)

Loaded Holden V8 Caprice

4160 lbs (1887 Kg)

Seems like Zetas are definitely heavy enough to be Buicks, then.

[VenSeattle]

Seems like Zetas are definitely heavy enough to be Buicks, then.

Haha... but seriously. The G8 doesn't have near the sound deadening nor the electronic features, yet it weighs almost as much as the Cadillac DTS. Not good.

[smk4565]

I know the Aurora's overhangs aren't excessive, but there is still a good bit up front. The Aurora is better designed than the Lucerne though, Buick took what Oldsmobile had and made a step backwards. I agree that Zeta has a weight problem.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Haha... but seriously. The G8 doesn't have near the sound deadening nor the electronic features, yet it weighs almost as much as the Cadillac DTS. Not good.

Not even HUD, what a shame.

[gm4life]

So they will be doing six speed autos in the G? If they give it a nice reskin and some work under-neath I have no problem with it. $h! give one to Pontiac and call it the Grand Prix or Bonneville.

[cire]

So they will be doing six speed autos in the G? If they give it a nice reskin and some work under-neath I have no problem with it. $h! give one to Pontiac and call it the Grand Prix or Bonneville.

I agree with you. I think Buick would still have a competitive large sedan if they would create a redesign on an updated version of the G-body with a more modern and competitive engine/trans combo. However, I would like to see the Pontiac flagship sedan remain RWD (I know, fat chance in that happening). A G-body replacement for the W-body Impala would be nice, though.

[VenSeattle]

A G-body replacement for the W-body Impala would be nice, though.

I've thought this and suggested a similar idea several times...

GM could give a 3.9l G-platform Impala to Chevrolet with the 3.6l as optional. Make the DI 3.6l V6 on the Lucerne standard and drop the CX trim.

[Paolino]

I've thought this and suggested a similar idea several times...

GM could give a 3.9l G-platform Impala to Chevrolet with the 3.6l as optional. Make the DI 3.6l V6 on the Lucerne standard and drop the CX trim.

I say keep the CX trim for the blue-haired crowd that wants them still. Make a few things standard to keep the Lucerne "premium car status". I mean, seriously, if the cheaper LaCrosse has tilt/telescoping standard, dual auto climate control standard, etc., why doesn't the more expensive flagship have these standard?

[cire]

I've thought this and suggested a similar idea several times...

GM could give a 3.9l G-platform Impala to Chevrolet with the 3.6l as optional. Make the DI 3.6l V6 on the Lucerne standard and drop the CX trim.

I thought the Impala would have the 3.6 liter V6 as standard and the direct injection version as optional. I agree with you that the direct injection version should be standard on the Buick G-body (I would prefer a name change, "LeSabre" would be my pick since it has a lot of market recognition). I would maybe add a turbocharger to the direct injection version for an upper trim level of the Buick. GM needs to quit compromising their future products with old tech. They need to appear as though they are modern and competitive in the market and old tech compromises this perception. I don't want GM to be the oversized dinosaur in the market anymore.

[Paolino]

I thought the Impala would have the 3.6 liter V6 as standard and the direct injection version as optional. I agree with you that the direct injection version should be standard on the Buick G-body (I would prefer a name change, "LeSabre" would be my pick since it has a lot of market recognition). I would maybe add a turbocharger to the direct injection version for an upper trim level of the Buick. GM needs to quit compromising their future products with old tech. They need to appear as though they are modern and competitive in the market and old tech compromises this perception. I don't want GM to be the oversized dinosaur in the market anymore.

Well, aren't they phasing out the 3900? I mean, the only cars it's offered on that I can think of will be the 2009 Impala, Lucerne (and maybe G6?)

It seems they're stepping up and putting DOHC V6's in all their cars. The Aura and Malibu have only DOHC engines, and I believe for 2009, the G6 will be the same except for the 3500.

[The O.C.]

There's nothing wrong with the G-Platform except for the power train. The overhangs are no greater than the foreign competition. Interior dimensions are very accommodating including trunk space. A Lucerne with 3.6l & 6-speed would be a perfectly fine replacement for my V6-powered Park Avenue Ultra.

I disagree, Ven......the platform is ancient, and feels like it.

Even taking a DTS with the 1SE Performance Package out (the firmest setup) it still feels too floaty and boatish compared to any other Caddy.....even base-suspension STS and CTS models. And this is my impression at low-to-moderate speeds (as I don't expect it to be a "sport sedan.")

On the flip side, no DTS, even the base suspension car, seems to really float over the road and soak up bumps like it should. There are just too many quivers and shudders now.

Plus, I don't think I've ever been in a vehicle with such a VERY poor turning radius as the DTS......(thank you front-wheel-drive and wide tranversely-mounted V8 engine.....)

I do agree that the interior is roomy and, at least in the DTS, has pretty fine finishing and materials. But that's little consolation for a car with such a dated powertrain and chassis.

[The O.C.]

And Buick has already started attracting younger buyers... Don't you read any of the articles posted on this site?

......yeah but only thanks to Enclave.....that's it......

[Oracle of Delphi]

I disagree, Ven......the platform is ancient, and feels like it.

Even taking a DTS with the 1SE Performance Package out (the firmest setup) it still feels too floaty and boatish compared to any other Caddy.....even base-suspension STS and CTS models. And this is my impression at low-to-moderate speeds (as I don't expect it to be a "sport sedan.")

On the flip side, no DTS, even the base suspension car, seems to really float over the road and soak up bumps like it should. There are just too many quivers and shudders now.

Plus, I don't think I've ever been in a vehicle with such a VERY poor turning radius as the DTS......(thank you front-wheel-drive and wide tranversely-mounted V8 engine.....)

I do agree that the interior is roomy and, at least in the DTS, has pretty fine finishing and materials. But that's little consolation for a car with such a dated powertrain and chassis.

Old people like floaty and boatish.

[turbo200]

so the question is can sufficient updates, requisite modernizing of powertrains and styling, overcome suspension defecits inherent with an outdated architecture. the only large FWD car sold with moderate success, for its category, aside from GM cars, are the Audi A6 and Toyota Avalon. Maxima is still midsized, 500 is value priced and still fails [though the future update will change this]....what other large FWD cars are out there?

The problem from my perspective truly is G-body is outdated to truly handle the demands of newer car buyers based on competing entries within the segment. We're talking the newly minted Maxima, the classy and good driving MKS [perhaps a classic interpretation of what a Buick can be, and hopefully the next Lacrosse/Invicta will be], and the Accord [large car interior, not so large car footprint].

Whether it's dynamics, space utilization, or just plain tired proportions....G-body seems lackluster. I would honestly just do a larger Epsilon Buick.......the problem is that wouldn't work at all at Caddy, and I would be ashamed to do it. But DTS is already FWD. and it's badly hurting Caddy's image. Plans for a RWD Caddy should not have been dismissed, however poorly timed that entry may be. With great pricing, killer styling, great powertrains and features, that car could be a massive success, on the luxury scale. and help justify Zeta's Oshawa investments.

DTS needs to go. Buick big car can stay FWD, but make it Epsilon to modernize drive feel, along with style [though who knows what the new gen Epsilon brings in that direction, Insignia is a killer design, Invicta is already looking lame.]

[turbo200]

Old people like floaty and boatish.

Old people die everyday. Buick's base has dwindled. Lacrosse will supplant many of those Lucerne buyers, who look more for price, stateliness, and luxury features. Buick needs to redefine its large car formula, as it competes too much with lower end cars, like the TL, that are much better at doing what they do.

Edited September 3, 2008 by turbo200

[The O.C.]

Old people like floaty and boatish.

Many of the elderly people I've sold the new CTS to would disagree with you.......

[The O.C.]

Old people like floaty and boatish.

The vast majority of (old) people that buy the DTS is for it's roominess. Cars don't have to be floaty and boaty to ride smoothly and soak up bumps.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The vast majority of (old) people that buy the DTS is for it's roominess. Cars don't have to be floaty and boaty to ride smoothly and soak up bumps.

By the way, what are the dealership demographics for old, is it 50 - 60, 60 -70, 70 - 80, or 80 and over?

[Robert Hall]

By the way, what are the dealership demographics for old, is it 50 - 60, 60 -70, 70 - 80, or 80 and over?

Those sound like the target McCain demographics! All old, all the time..

[VenSeattle]

I disagree, Ven......the platform is ancient, and feels like it.

Even taking a DTS with the 1SE Performance Package out (the firmest setup) it still feels too floaty and boatish compared to any other Caddy.....even base-suspension STS and CTS models. And this is my impression at low-to-moderate speeds (as I don't expect it to be a "sport sedan.")

On the flip side, no DTS, even the base suspension car, seems to really float over the road and soak up bumps like it should. There are just too many quivers and shudders now.

Plus, I don't think I've ever been in a vehicle with such a VERY poor turning radius as the DTS......(thank you front-wheel-drive and wide tranversely-mounted V8 engine.....)

Uhm... You're talking about a DTS... remember that. It's not tuned to perform like a CTS, not even as a DTS III...

I think a Bonneville GXP, Aurora 4.0 or possibly a G-platform-based STS w/magnetic ride control would serve as a better gauge for the driving dynamics of the platform. Test drive those and then let us know if a DTS level interior with similar suspension tuning would make it feel more capable.

[VenSeattle]

......yeah but only thanks to Enclave.....that's it......

Oh really? Please share the 2007 and/or 2008-to-date average buyer's age for the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave. I'm actually very curious.

[turbo200]

old is 70+. 60-70 are now boomers. they're in lexuses, good luck syphoning most of those buyers off

[gm4life]

Actually I think a new G is fine but revamp and make sure a six speed automatic will work. GM screwed that up on the DTS and Lucerne. Although the DTS's interior quality is good and in performance trim drives very well. Then make sure a V8 OHV or OHC (I don't care) will fit in it with the six speed. In a DTS/Lucenre or even new Pontiac sedan with 325hp (optional AWD) wider front tires *think Grand Prix GXP* and Bonneville GXP tuning or Aurora 4.0 for that matter would be fine with me. As for a base motor a 3.6L DI would be nice.

Edited September 3, 2008 by gm4life

[turbo200]

Oh really? Please share the 2007 and/or 2008-to-date average buyer's age for the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave. I'm actually very curious.

he may not have the info to back up his statement [or maybe he does, i remember many articles quoting it]....but there's only been one Buick to change in the last year, and Buick's age group has only just begun to get younger. one can only assume no seismic shift like a tidal wave occured destroying all Toyotas bound to our shore dramatically increasing the number of younger buyers heading to thier local Buick dealers, so the other two cars already well into their lifecycle logically would not have a shift in buying patters except for decreases. right? that's only logic...

[The O.C.]

Oh really? Please share the 2007 and/or 2008-to-date average buyer's age for the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave. I'm actually very curious.

I'll let someone else spend the time to pull up the numbers.

C'mon now.....you know as well as I do that neither LaCrosse NOR Lucerne are attracting "younger" buyers.

Enclave? Yeah......