McCain's trend

[Oracle of Delphi]

McCain doesn't even know what day it is, I'm seriously starting to think he has Alzheimers. He says one thing at 8 AM and two hours later he is saying something completely opposite of what he stated 2 hours before. I can't vote for Gramps, it's Dole all over again. Can't go there.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11670.html

WSJ is a good read too http://www.wsj.com/article/SB121910303529751345.html

You see, There is far more to tax than simply income bracket %s. Various credits, social security + various other taxes (which your probably aren't even familiar with).

Obama's plan is very detrimental to small business (sole proprietorship's, partnerships, S-corportations) because those companies are not taxed as businesses, they are taxed as personal taxes (hence the benefit of single taxation, C-corps are double taxed but that's a different story).

Obama's plan is also detrimental to the stock market, his tax changes would severely undermine efforts to keep our stock market going strong. Eliminating Bush's more favorable rate on eligible capital gains would slow stock market recovery (as I'm sure it will depress in the months to come).

So what it comes down to is this, if the economy was stagnant and never changed, then yes Obama's tax plan would give the government more revenue, but that is simply not the case, as the economy slips into recession (which im quite sure it will) the difference in money raised/lost will lessen between McCains and Obama's, but the economy will likely grow faster under McCains, which will lead to more revenues. Over time, their tax plans may end up equaling out in overall revenues brought in.

There's an old saying that says, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Well Obama wants to bite that hand for a significant amount of our population.

Obama will lead us down the path to socalism. He will lead us down the path to less innovation. Obama will promote the idea that, its okay if you don't do your best, the government will bail you out. You don't have to make good decisions, because there is equality of results. Your success will be heavily taxed, because you don't deserve to be successful and employ others you bastard!

America's work ethic may be upon its death throes. Sure, the economy will continue, and sure there will still be people who will try and be successful because that is just their nature, but overall it will have a detrimental effect on American ingenuity.

Of course, i will admit that McCains tax plan isn't the best either, but its better than Obama's, and McCain isn't proposing undermining what little is left of the Protestant Work Ethic.

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2...plan_impac.html

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/augus...a2019s-tax-plan

Edited September 22, 2008 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[gm4life]

McCain doesn't even know what day it is, I'm seriously starting to think he has Alzheimers. He says one thing at 8 AM and two hours later he is saying something completely opposite of what he stated 2 hours before. I can't vote for Gramps, it's Dole all over again. Can't go there.

Bob Dole didn't have the record of reaching across party lines like McCain does either. He is a totally different person from the same party but Dole and McCain for republican are about as different as night and day.

[balthazar]

>>"...there is the $171B a year to maintain 8 more years of 'all war, all the time'..."<<

I ask this without expecting anything close to a serious answer, but here goes: By whom & where/when was it ever stated that there was an intent to extend the war "8 more years" ???

This should carry just as much weight as Barry's promise that 'nothing is off the table regarding Iran' and 'we'll invade Pakistan if we have to' comments, tho I know you Obamaniacs will 'poo-poo' this right away as taken out of context or some other excuse.

Anyone at all concerned that Barry (as a "citizen of the world" ) & Joe have co-sponsored the Global Poverty Act, aiming to dump an estimated $850,000,000,000 overseas to cut the WORLD poverty rate in HALF by 2015 ? Think that's included in his dreamy tax chart above ?? You're being suckered.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

McCain would offer Andrew Cuomo job of head of the SEC.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypoli...mo-for-sec.html

[Robert Hall]

>>"...there is the $171B a year to maintain 8 more years of 'all war, all the time'..."<<

I ask this without expecting anything close to a serious answer, but here goes: By whom & where/when was it ever stated that there was an intent to extend the war "8 more years" ???

You don't think McCain is going to end the war,do you? He will continue it.... at least 8 more years (if he's elected twice). I'm afraid I don't trust Republicans to do the right thing about anything...they will extend the war indefinitely, to keep business good for their buddies at Halliburton, Blackwater, and other corrupt defence contractors/etc...

[gm4life]

Thanks to McCain and the surge were actually going to start to be pulling troops out of Iraq.

[balthazar]

You don't think McCain is going to end the war,do you? He will continue it.... at least 8 more years (if he's elected twice). I'm afraid I don't trust Republicans to do the right thing about anything...they will extend the war indefinitely, to keep business good for their buddies at Halliburton, Blackwater, and other corrupt defence contractors/etc...

McCain stated more than once he's only going to run for 1 term, so you're down to only 4 years.

If McCain wanted to continue the war indefinately for these nameless 'buddies', why was he a proponent of the surge and the increasing control & declining violence it accomplished? Something's not consistant in Conspiracy World...

Actually, I'm rather shocked you aren't trotting out the '100 years' quote and firing up your calculator for a dollar total.

[Robert Hall]

McCain doesn't even know what day it is, I'm seriously starting to think he has Alzheimers. He says one thing at 8 AM and two hours later he is saying something completely opposite of what he stated 2 hours before. I can't vote for Gramps, it's Dole all over again. Can't go there.

Yeah, and McCain even admits he doesn't use a computer or email. No way in the 21st century would I want a luddite like that leading the country. McCain and the Republicans have done nothing to appeal to my demographic (upper middle class urban/suburban technologists).

Before the Palin decision, I didn't think McCain was that bad..but I find her totally disgusting (the whole gun/fundie Christian angle is a complete turn off).

Edited September 22, 2008 by moltar

[Robert Hall]

McCain stated more than once he's only going to run for 1 term, so you're down to only 4 years.

If McCain wanted to continue the war indefinately for these nameless 'buddies', why was he a proponent of the surge and the increasing control & declining violence it accomplished? Something's not consistant in Conspiracy World...

Actually, I'm rather shocked you aren't trotting out the '100 years' quote and firing up your calculator for a dollar total.

I was going to, but that would be overkill...

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Yeah, and McCain even admits he doesn't use a computer or email. No way in the 21st century would I want a luddite like that leading the country. McCain and the Republicans have done nothing to appeal to my demographic (upper middle class urban/suburban technologists).

Nice job of making fun of a man who can only surf the net with his mouse, Why? Because of his war injuries it hurts him to type! As a result he has to have his wife type responses while at home. Like i said he can surf with a mouse though as it doesn't hurt him as much apparently. He has stated that he DOES read his own mail, but he just can't himself write responses because it pains him to type. I dont see a computer in the oval office anyways, do you? Perhaps when he is president they will get him one of those doohickies that lets people move the mouse with their mind, and perhaps even type with it.

Anyways if you are quite done making fun of a man's disabilities, http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-h...ck-if-they-let-

Edited September 22, 2008 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[Robert Hall]

Nice job of making fun of a man who can only surf the net with his mouse, Why? Because of his war injuries it hurts him to type! As a result he has to have his wife type responses while at home. Like i said he can surf with a mouse though as it doesn't hurt him as much apparently. He has stated that he DOES read his own mail, but he just can't himself write responses because it pains him to type. I dont see a computer in the oval office anyways, do you? Perhaps when he is president they will get him one of those doohickies that lets people move the mouse with their mind, and perhaps even type with it.

Actually, my comment had nothing to do with disabilities... there are people that use computers strictly with voice activation. He's said before that he has no use for email and doesn't see what the big deal with the Internet is...it's a generational thing, I think he's out of touch w/ the modern world. He's at the age where he should be relaxing at his place near Sedona and playing golf...

Edited September 22, 2008 by moltar

[balthazar]

I was going to, but that would be overkill...

Pish-posh; libs don't know the meaning of the word. Go ahead & use '100 years'... and be convincing! Don't let facts slow your party's rhetoric down!

[Robert Hall]

Pish-posh; libs don't know the meaning of the word. Go ahead & use '100 years'... and be convincing! Don't let facts slow your party's rhetoric down!

Any 'facts' put forth by the Republicans I automatically assume are fake..I don't trust them.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09212008/busin...ddon_130110.htm

Apparently the stock market could have been in far worse trouble if the fed didn't intervene. I don't know though, im still not a fan of this.

[siegen]

>>"...there is the $171B a year to maintain 8 more years of 'all war, all the time'..."<<

I ask this without expecting anything close to a serious answer, but here goes: By whom & where/when was it ever stated that there was an intent to extend the war "8 more years" ???

This should carry just as much weight as Barry's promise that 'nothing is off the table regarding Iran' and 'we'll invade Pakistan if we have to' comments, tho I know you Obamaniacs will 'poo-poo' this right away as taken out of context or some other excuse.

Anyone at all concerned that Barry (as a "citizen of the world" ) & Joe have co-sponsored the Global Poverty Act, aiming to dump an estimated $850,000,000,000 overseas to cut the WORLD poverty rate in HALF by 2015 ? Think that's included in his dreamy tax chart above ?? You're being suckered.

Edit: Awesome super man!

He plays basketball too. ;]

Edited September 22, 2008 by siegen

[balthazar]

>>"Oooooh, you're making a pun!"<<

A pun? No; his mother remarried after his biological father left when BO was 2, and when he was enrolled in Indonesian schools (you know- under the religious category of 'Muslim'... but I digress), it was under the name 'Barry Soetoro'- his step-father's surname. Isn't this common knowledge ??

[Oracle of Delphi]

Bob Dole didn't have the record of reaching across party lines like McCain does either. He is a totally different person from the same party but Dole and McCain for republican are about as different as night and day.

My point was, they are both old and senile.

[siegen]

>>"Oooooh, you're making a pun!"<<

A pun? No; his mother remarried after his biological father left when BO was 2, and when he was enrolled in Indonesian schools (you know- under the religious category of 'Muslim'... but I digress), it was under the name 'Barry Soetoro'- his step-father's surname. Isn't this common knowledge ??

I tried to Ninja edit my post but didn't get it in time. :AH-HA_wink:

Does he go by Barry?

[loki]

Any 'facts' put forth by the Republicans I automatically assume are fake..I don't trust them.

you know what happens when you assume... cause i don't. LOL

vast lies or opinions thrown around as facts happen in both parties. i think if you take a "fact" and try to go the opposite way with it and that way sounds worse, after more than an inkling of thought, the original "fact" must be closer to the truth than not. a very simple example of scientific thought, not science though.

[balthazar]

Your ninja skills must be off; that was a 9 minute gap between our posts.

>>"Does he go by Barry?"<<

Don't believe so. In fact, when asked if he ever went by another name, he reportedly answered 'no'. Unfortunately for his credibility, there's an AP-verified picture of his Indonesian school registration form floating around on the web with the 'Barry' name (and 'Islam' religion) on it. If it didn't come from Indonesia, even that would be squirreled away, just like his Occidental college records, his Columbia U records, his health report, his 'accomplishments' working for ACORN, or any other paper trail from his past. I refrain from making a reference to the '30s radio program with the mysterious cloaked crime-fighter for fear it would be mistaken as a racial slur, but that character's name aptly describes the man's history.

Frankly, I cannot decide whether to refer to him as earthy 'Barry' or heavenly 'The Messiah'....

[Drew Dowdell]

>>"McCain has the author of the deregulation bill as his economic advisor."<<

Barry had James Johnson involved in his VP vetting campaign. Johnson was CEO of Fannie Mae throughout the '90s, and was accused of received loans directly from Angelo Mozilo, CEO of Countrywide Financial... of course, implicated in the U.S. subprime mortgage lending crisis.

Oh nooo! Someone who was CEO in the 90s of a company that is failing today got a cheap loan from a buddy!

[Drew Dowdell]

is it really a lack of regulation or lack of oversight of current regulations?

i think it's horribly funny that "they" are looking at whether short selling should be illegal. i'm sure it does hurt people occasionally, but one could say that's what the market is for, so strong and weak companies can be prodded as such to test them. this is just socializing risk more and could take away "market selection".

is there a theory of market selection yet? if not, can i propose it?!

Well.. to be more specific, they're looking into if "naked" short selling should be illegal. Naked short selling (for those who don't know) is the practice of selling a stock short without first borrowing the shares or ensuring that the shares can be borrowed as is done in a conventional short sale. When the seller does not then obtain the shares within the required time frame, the result is known as a "fail to deliver". However, the transaction generally continues to sit open until the shares are acquired by the seller or the seller's broker, allowing a trade to occur when the order is filled.

It's the process of selling something you don't have.

And yes, it's the lack of regulation. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley act allowed conflicts of interest to evolve.

Please read this whole article carefully. It shows John McCain at the heart of the S&L Crisis, Keating 5, Enron, and todays mess.

Glass-Steagall was put in place in 1933 to control the rampant speculation that had helped cause the collapse of banking at the outset of the Depression, and to prevent such consolidation of the banks that the nation had all its eggs in one fiscal basket. Gramm-Leach-Bliley reversed those rules, allowing not only more bank mergers but for banks to become directly involved in the stock market, bonds and insurance. Remember the bit about how S&Ls failed because they didn't have the regulations that protected banks? After Gramm-Leach-Bliley, banks didn't have that protection either.

[Drew Dowdell]

I know everyone thinks Obama can handle the economy, hate to say it neither one has the kind of knowledge I think a prez should have. Having said that if there is one whom has a plan that is closer to actually working it is McCain. Honestly when you look at this alone Frannie Mae and Freddie Mack gave Obama 80K for his campigen while McCain got a mere 20K gee I wonder whom has the "big boys" on there side. Just saying a pancake has two sides. I have a hard time trusting a man whom says one thing in San Franisco about "us" (middle class American's) and then says something totally different when the people he just knocked are around. You might not agree with McCain on the issues but you have to give him this, that he is a man of his word and is honest. Obama has the words but I question his ability to back it up...

Considering Fannie and Freddie both got where they are today because of John McCain and pals, I can understand they may be less willing to donate to McCain.

[Drew Dowdell]

You might not agree with McCain on the issues but you have to give him this, that he is a man of his word and is honest. Obama has the words but I question his ability to back it up...

You know that there are now website up just to keep track of the lies McCain and Palin are passing out... right?

[Drew Dowdell]

Obama will lead us down the path to socalism. He will lead us down the path to less innovation. Obama will promote the idea that, its okay if you don't do your best, the government will bail you out. You don't have to make good decisions, because there is equality of results. Your success will be heavily taxed, because you don't deserve to be successful and employ others you bastard!

Uhm...if you haven't been paying attention, we just socialized the two biggest mortgage companies, the two remaining investment banks, and the worlds largest insurance company.

[Drew Dowdell]

Thanks to McCain and the surge were actually going to start to be pulling troops out of Iraq.

Thanks to McCain for what? All he did was say "+1" when Bush proposed it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Nice job of making fun of a man who can only surf the net with his mouse, Why? Because of his war injuries it hurts him to type! As a result he has to have his wife type responses while at home. Like i said he can surf with a mouse though as it doesn't hurt him as much apparently. He has stated that he DOES read his own mail, but he just can't himself write responses because it pains him to type. I dont see a computer in the oval office anyways, do you? Perhaps when he is president they will get him one of those doohickies that lets people move the mouse with their mind, and perhaps even type with it.

Anyways if you are quite done making fun of a man's disabilities, http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-h...ck-if-they-let-

Dragon Naturally Speaking

It's like $350.... surely a man with 7.... 9..... 11? houses can afford it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Don't let facts slow your party's rhetoric down!

Some even use lies to try and accelerate themselves.

[Drew Dowdell]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09212008/busin...ddon_130110.htm

Apparently the stock market could have been in far worse trouble if the fed didn't intervene. I don't know though, im still not a fan of this.

BUT BUT!!!!! THAT"S SOCIALISM!!!@#!@!! **SPUTTER** *SPITTLE***

We're privatizing the gains and socializing the losses. This is the biggest robbery of the American public ever orchestrated.

[balthazar]

>>"Considering Fannie and Freddie both got where they are today because of John McCain and pals"<<

No, FM & FM got where they are today because of barack obama's pals. Pals who fostered illegal activity, pals who raped the system and got away with it, pals who remain close at his request. The roster of criminals & the morally-bankrupt grows around him, yet all the Dem lib supporters do is shrug it away and wave their signs all the harder.

The 'buddy sub-prime' loan scenario for multi-millionaires points right to the reality of the situation: MORE OF THE SAME- cronyism, back-room dealings, a middle-finger for the law, bold lies and the same old me-first attitude. The whole 'Change' platform is complete & utter bull&#036;h&#33;, the only difference is Barry's been better at concealing it longer.

[Drew Dowdell]

>>"Considering Fannie and Freddie both got where they are today because of John McCain and pals"<<

No, FM & FM got where they are today because of barack obama's pals. Pals who fostered illegal activity, pals who raped the system and got away with it, pals who remain close at his request. The roster of criminals & the morally-bankrupt grows around him, yet all the Dem lib supporters do is shrug it away and wave their signs all the harder.

The 'buddy sub-prime' loan scenario for multi-millionaires points right to the reality of the situation: MORE OF THE SAME- cronyism, back-room dealings, a middle-finger for the law, bold lies and the same old me-first attitude. The whole 'Change' platform is complete & utter bull&#036;h&#33;, the only difference is Barry's been better at concealing it longer.

Rizzo? wouldn't have been able to do any of it without the deregulation John McCain and Phil Gramm provided. It wasn't millionaires* getting the sub-prime loans btw. Gramm promptly retired at the end of his term and became a well paid lobbyist for one of the banks that helped write the legislation.

*Mostly... I'm sure you can find a few who did.... but millionaires aren't generally defined as "sub-prime". The buddy-loans were mostly sweet deals at low interest rates, not mortgages made on fraudulent data to people unable to repay.

[balthazar]

See post #888.

[Drew Dowdell]

See post #888.

So, you're more pissed at the guy who is friends with the foxes than the guy who was paid to pick the lock on the hen house and let the foxes in....... got it.

edit: Oh yeah, and this was the 3rd time the foxes got in and ate all the chickens.

[Drew Dowdell]

Just imagine for a moment if it were the black candidate in this election, rather than the white candidate, who was born in Central America, was an indifferent churchgoer, had graduated near the bottom of his university class, had dumped his first wife, had regularly displayed an explosive and profane temper, and had referred to the Pakistani-Iraqi border ...

[siegen]

Your ninja skills must be off; that was a 9 minute gap between our posts.

>>"Does he go by Barry?"<<

Don't believe so. In fact, when asked if he ever went by another name, he reportedly answered 'no'. Unfortunately for his credibility, there's an AP-verified picture of his Indonesian school registration form floating around on the web with the 'Barry' name (and 'Islam' religion) on it. If it didn't come from Indonesia, even that would be squirreled away, just like his Occidental college records, his Columbia U records, his health report, his 'accomplishments' working for ACORN, or any other paper trail from his past. I refrain from making a reference to the '30s radio program with the mysterious cloaked crime-fighter for fear it would be mistaken as a racial slur, but that character's name aptly describes the man's history.

Frankly, I cannot decide whether to refer to him as earthy 'Barry' or heavenly 'The Messiah'....

I thought I was faster than that.... Anyway, I read about Occidental and Barry. I don't see what the problem is there. I signed my driver's license with my nickname and have always had trouble getting my signature notarized because I like to sign my full name now. I may actually have signed up with community college with my nickname, although I don't remember, I know I used my full name for my university, and I make sure to use my full name now. As far as the religion goes, perhaps he was confused or didn't really care. If it said Atheist I'm sure he would never hear the end of it from the Republican party, but it wouldn't affect my opinion. He has also admitted to drinking and using drugs in high school.

Barry Obama decided that he didn't like his nickname. A few of his friends at Occidental College had already begun to call him Barack (his formal name), and he'd come to prefer that. The way his half sister, Maya, remembers it, Obama returned home at Christmas in 1980, and there he told his mother and grandparents: no more Barry.

"Why did Obama make the conscious decision to take on his formal African name? His father was also Barack, and also Barry: he [barack's father]chose the nickname when he came to America from Kenya on a scholarship in 1959. His was a typical immigrant transition. Just as a Dutch woman named Hanneke might become Johanna, or a German named Matthias becomes Matt, the elder Barack wanted to fit in. America was a melting pot, and it was expected then that you melt—or at least smooth some of your more foreign edges.

The full 6 page article

To sum up the first page of the article, he was having an identity crisis, and finally decided he wanted to go by his formal name. This is almost exactly the same thing that happened to two of my friends during and shortly after high school. They both had Americanized versions of their last names (at least in pronunciation), then became quite adamant about having it pronounced properly. It's almost like they suddenly became proud of their heritage, maybe it was something their parents told them, I don't know and I never asked them.

[Drew Dowdell]

Oh no.... as a kid I went by Andy... by my very late teens, I was Andrew... and for the past 10 years or so, I've been Drew.

I am now ineligible for elected office?

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

BUT BUT!!!!! THAT"S SOCIALISM!!!@#!@!! **SPUTTER** *SPITTLE***

We're privatizing the gains and socializing the losses. This is the biggest robbery of the American public ever orchestrated.

I know, this is bad enough, there were better ways at stabilizing the financial sector than this. I hate this. But, Obama's Universal healthcare will rank us among the Europeans in socialistic countries, plus INCOME REDISTRIBUTION is the hallmark of socialistic policies. So while there may be (god awful) socialism in the McCain presidency due to regulators not doing their jobs and AMERICANS making bad decisions and CORPORATIONS making bad decisions. There will still be far less socialism during a McCain presidency than an Obama one.

Socialism is the easy way out. Socialism is how you attract idiotic peoples votes (oh well hey government giving me money sounds good! He-yup!). Socialism is what you turn to when you have admitted defeat.

Capitalism is like playing a video game on the hard difficulty. Your potential rewards are better, you can get a better score. But it's a lot harder to successfully manage capitalism in a way that benefits everyone. It can be done, but it takes some skill.

Socialism is like playing that same game on easy. You get less rewards, its easier, and you get a lot lower score. Plus you need a bigass bureaucracy to manage it all.

<rant>

ARgh, this whole deal sickens me. "well hey, i didnt know i was getting into a bad loan here..." WTF man, did you not read your own terms of contract?! did you HONESTLY BELIEVE that these house prices weren't inflated? What is wrong with people? Are people really this stupid?

And to corporations: HOW THE HELL did you believe that giving loans to people with TERRIBLE credit, OR people who don't have very much income is a GOOD IDEA? WTF is wrong with you financial America? You people must have been slapped by the idiot stick a few too many times.

And to the Gubment: WHY THE HELL were you encouraging people to continue buying houses? you COULDNT TELL THAT THERE WAS A BIGASS INFLATIONARY BUBBLE GOING ON IN THE HOUSING MARKET? WTF. FURTHERMORE, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU FORCING US intelligent, rational, taxpayers who steered clear of this whole mess (because it was quite obvious what was going to happen) to bail out these idiotic Americans? Why are you forcing us to pay CORPORATE AMERICA money because of their stupid decisions? Why should we be paying YOU for problems that YOU YOURSELF contributed to by not doing your job (even with less regulations, there were still regulators in place who should have sought to nip this in the heels when it was still a non-problem)? Why should we be paying for an EXTREMELY risky venture to rectify this mess? Why didn't YOU choose a far less risky venture that involved less capital expenditures (as there are other means of stabilizing a sector than shoving money down its throat).

</rant>

Edited September 22, 2008 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[siegen]

Every negative statement I hear about Obama's healthcare plan says generally that he will make our healthcare system universal, and we will lose good doctors and have overcrowded clinics and hospitals, like in European countries.

I do not pretend to know a whole lot about how healthcare functions in other countries, but from what I've read on Obama's website and in articles, it doesn't sound to me like what he wants to do is like in the "horrible" European countries.

From what I read, Obama wants to offer a government healthcare service, that will not be free (it will have premiums, copays, deductibles, like private insurance), and it will supplement the current private system. There will be subsidies for low income peoples and children to purchase healthcare, either from the government system or private companies ("Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need financial assistance will receive an income-related federal subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan"). People will continue to be able to purchase healthcare individually or through their work, and they will have the option of purchasing the government's healthcare plan or private insurance.

From what I read on McCain's website, he wants to offer everyone free money to purchase their own healthcare system ("every family will receive a direct refundable tax credit - effectively cash - of $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families"). He also wants to create a nonprofit group to work with private companies to offer healthcare to those who can't afford it.

Socialism is how you attract idiotic peoples votes

So is free money.

[Drew Dowdell]

If you're going to do Socialism, at least give the money to the poor people. To quote Dodgefan, "It's not so much that I care about what you're doing, it's the stupid way you're doing it."

ARgh, this whole deal sickens me. "well hey, i didnt know i was getting into a bad loan here..." WTF man, did you not read your own terms of contract?! did you HONESTLY BELIEVE that these house prices weren't inflated? What is wrong with people? Are people really this stupid?

Actually, there were a lot of people who were duped by mortgage brokers and real estate agents. There were papers slipped in at the last minute and signatures that "magically" jumped from document to document. That isn't to say there weren't dumb consumers.... but fraud in the industry was rampant.

And to corporations: HOW THE HELL did you believe that giving loans to people with TERRIBLE credit, OR people who don't have very much income is a GOOD IDEA? WTF is wrong with you financial America? You people must have been slapped by the idiot stick a few too many times.

This is the deregulation I was speaking to earlier. Mortgage brokers sold bad loans to people who were fraudulently representing their income to the banks. The banks would then package up a group of these mortgages into financial funds and sell the fund to some other institution. At this point, the visibility of who the mortgages are written to disappears. These funds would get traded around to other institutions, portioned out, repackaged with others, and resold. The funds were then rated as AAA by the financial ratings agencies....because these securities are backed by real estate and real estate never goes down in value.... "they aren't making more land" <insert cheesy salesman laugh here>. Now if you're a bank and you KNOW you're going to package these mortgages up and sell them to some poor schmuck who walks by, what do you care if the mortgage was based on fraud?

Now you get a new job and start filling out the 401k paperwork and see this highly rated fund that's backed with real estate. Sounds like a good thing to bank your retirement on...right? Well, lots of people did.

And to the Gubment: WHY THE HELL were you encouraging people to continue buying houses? you COULDNT TELL THAT THERE WAS A BIGASS INFLATIONARY BUBBLE GOING ON IN THE HOUSING MARKET? WTF. FURTHERMORE, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU FORCING US intelligent, rational, taxpayers who steered clear of this whole mess (because it was quite obvious what was going to happen) to bail out these idiotic Americans? Why are you forcing us to pay CORPORATE AMERICA money because of their stupid decisions?

Government and Corporate were in it together. We probably wouldn't be where we are if there hadn't been a concerted effort <NAFTA> to keep the wages of the middle and lower classes down. I'm not saying this was a cause, but the situation wouldn't be nearly as dire had wages kept up with inflation.

[Drew Dowdell]

Every negative statement I hear about Obama's healthcare plan says generally that he will make our healthcare system universal, and we will lose good doctors and have overcrowded clinics and hospitals, like in European countries.

I do not pretend to know a whole lot about how healthcare functions in other countries, but from what I've read on Obama's website and in articles, it doesn't sound to me like what he wants to do is like in the "horrible" European countries.

From what I read, Obama wants to offer a government healthcare service, that will not be free (it will have premiums, copays, deductibles, like private insurance), and it will supplement the current private system. There will be subsidies for low income peoples and children to purchase healthcare, either from the government system or private companies ("Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need financial assistance will receive an income-related federal subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan"). People will continue to be able to purchase healthcare individually or through their work, and they will have the option of purchasing the government's healthcare plan or private insurance.

From what I read on McCain's website, he wants to offer everyone free money to purchase their own healthcare system ("every family will receive a direct refundable tax credit - effectively cash - of $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families"). He also wants to create a nonprofit group to work with private companies to offer healthcare to those who can't afford it.

So is free money.

Correct. He is just opening up the healthcare program offered to federal employees to everyone. You'll still need to pay to play unless you are the most destitute out there.... which basically is happening already anyway.

[Intrepidation]

I feel so loved that my quote was used

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Government and Corporate were in it together. We probably wouldn't be where we are if there hadn't been a concerted effort <NAFTA> to keep the wages of the middle and lower classes down. I'm not saying this was a cause, but the situation wouldn't be nearly as dire had wages kept up with inflation.

I feel sorry for the victims of fraud, but people need to learn not to take things at their face value if they want to get ahead in life. But Fraud is still a crime, and it should have been nipped before it was a problem. This was still WELL WITHIN governments means to control it, even with deregulation.

Manufacturing is gone from this country, you can't get a good paying job with only a high school education these days. The only way the Working/Middle class will see a large change is if they either A. Unionize all the crappy jobs, or B. make the rest of the world expensive to manufacture in. Both of these will raise inflation considerably. Both of these will likely lead to no advantage over now.

Now you advocating that NAFTA was a bad deal just shows you believe in protectionist policies, which time and time again have PROVEN to be a massive failure. Incentives to manufacture here may be a more viable and beneficial route.

And in argument of McCain's plan, his plan has the merits of POSSIBLY reducing health care costs, i HIGHLY doubt a government ran health care plan would be efficient enough to have any sort of downward push on private HMOs. You see, the beauty of the tax credit, is that it modifies peoples behavior, plus they can be quite temporary. If his plan has the effect of significantly lowering healthcare costs, then the credits can be phased out. Under Obama's plan, there is no possible phasing out of government spent money. So in the long run, Obama's plan would likely end up costing US THE TAXPAYER more money when you net everything out. But, do not forget that under McCain's plan, health care benefits become taxable, they are not currently taxed, so that tax credit is a bit more muddled than you would think.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[Drew Dowdell]

I feel sorry for the victims of fraud, but people need to learn not to take things at their face value if they want to get ahead in life. But Fraud is still a crime, and it should have been nipped before it was a problem. This was still WELL WITHIN governments means to control it, even with deregulation.

I'm not sure you are following me. Sometimes the fraud was committed by the borrower via "Stated Income" or more rudely, "Liar Loans". Sometimes the fraud was committed by the brokers who switched out paper work or even went so far as to use Photoshop to move someone's signature to a document they never even saw. Sometimes the borrower and brokers worked together to commit the fraud.

Manufacturing is gone from this country, you can't get a good paying job with only a high school education these days. The only way the Working/Middle class will see a large change is if they either A. Unionize all the crappy jobs, or B. make the rest of the world expensive to manufacture in. Both of these will raise inflation considerably. Both of these will likely lead to no advantage over now.

Now you advocating that NAFTA was a bad deal just shows you believe in protectionist policies, which time and time again have PROVEN to be a massive failure. Incentives to manufacture here may be a more viable and beneficial route.

Re: NAFTA... again Dodgefan's quote comes into play here. But even still, non-manufacturing jobs have had stagnant wages.

And in argument of McCain's plan, his plan has the merits of POSSIBLY reducing health care costs, i HIGHLY doubt a government ran health care plan would be efficient enough to have any sort of downward push on private HMOs. You see, the beauty of the tax credit, is that it modifies peoples behavior, plus they can be quite temporary. If his plan has the effect of significantly lowering healthcare costs, then the credits can be phased out. Under Obama's plan, there is no possible phasing out of government spent money. So in the long run, Obama's plan would likely end up costing US THE TAXPAYER more money when you net everything out. But, do not forget that under McCain's plan, health care benefits become taxable, they are not currently taxed, so that tax credit is a bit more muddled than you would think.

Re in bold: Initially, yes it would cost more to the taxpayer. However, the Federal government is the single largest healthcare payer in the nation right now. Just adding Walmart employees alone would create a LARGE downward pressure on healthcare rates.

Re in italics: Be careful of unintended consequences. McCain's policy might look good on the surface, but look 15 years down the road when NO employers offer healthcare to their employees anymore. I know you're all Nelson Capitalist Rockefeller and all, but that is a MASSIVE shift of burden from the wealthy to the non-wealthy. Considering we're already suffering substantially from Rich getting Richer and Poor getting Poorer, it might not be such a good idea to accelerate that trend.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Re in italics: Be careful of unintended consequences. McCain's policy might look good on the surface, but look 15 years down the road when NO employers offer healthcare to their employees anymore. I know you're all Nelson Capitalist Rockefeller and all, but that is a MASSIVE shift of burden from the wealthy to the non-wealthy. Considering we're already suffering substantially from Rich getting Richer and Poor getting Poorer, it might not be such a good idea to accelerate that trend.

Nay, you see, the wealthiest get the best health care plans. These would be taxed quite nicely and would encourage a more level heal care playing field for all workers. Now, if either candidate proposed a government healthcare system which was essentially just an HMO with the governments name on it, i might be slightly more in favor of it.

However, it would need to meet a few criteria. 1) The ONLY taxpayer funding for it should be initially. 2) They should be required to repay this initial funding with interest. 3) It must be ran as a non-profit and NOT AS A GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY.

Even then it likely wont be as efficient as a private company, but it would be better than a bureaucracy running it if it HAD TO BE DONE.

Theoretically a mix of Obama's and McCains plans could create an environment much more conducive to competition and lowering health care prices provided said government HMO was as i described above.

You see, there are 2 thoughts in this world. Thought A) says solve the problem at the roots. Thought B) says throw money at it and make it a government responsibility without actually addressing the root cause. And Thought C) says do nothing about it and let it ride cause maybe it will solve itself (which occasionally happens).

Democrats typically advocate B and republicans usually either go with route C or some mix of A and B. Now neither of those are obviously very good routes to take, its a shame most people dont realize that the ROOT OF THE PROBLEM will CAUSES THE SYMPTOMS. You can mask the symptoms all you want, but the root will just get worse (as in you make a government sponsored health care plan which addresses the symptoms, but not the root problem, which means that costs will still continue to rise astronomically). At least McCain makes a rather poor attempt at addressing the root problem instead of the symptoms.

Of course, BOTH McCains and Obama's arguments miss the point (well McCain addresses a very small portion of a real problem).

The simple point of the matter is that Americans lead very unhealthy lifestyles. They should not be having to go to the doctor for anything unless it was quite serious. The amount of drugs that Americans are on because they have "problems" is dizzying and disgusting to me. COME ON PEOPLE, just cause you hurt your arm and it kinda hurts doesnt mean you need PAIN MEDS. A Pill CANNOT SOLVE all your problems. YOU YOURSELF CAN. This is the real root of our problems in my opinion (and as a hypochondriac i should know!). I have an extremely low threshold to pain, but when i get a cold, or have the flu, or have to have dental work, i dont drug myself up to get through it. I take the pain and ride along with it. I remember one time, a friend of mine got a new doctor. So the first time he sees the new doc the doc asks him what drugs he is currently on. My buddy said "i dont take anything," the doc then gave him a puzzling look and said "really?" That alone, i believe, shows how bad our society has become.

Frivolous things like this tie up our medical staff and drive up costs of health care due to damn near pointless use of drugs which the HMOs have to at least partially cover (so they charge everyone more to make up for it). And of course the old regulations on how drug makers can advertise should be re-instated

Edited September 22, 2008 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[Intrepidation]

So for oral surgery we're just supposed to suck it up while they remove the wisdom teeth?.

Bite me.

I suppose if a bone breaks we should just let it heal itself and see how well that goes too. Screw the doctors or the cast!

Edited September 22, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Drew Dowdell]

Did you just advocate taxing the rich more to aid the poor? *hugs* I'm so proud of you! You're growing up so fast! *wipes away a tear*

I think you missed my point though. McCain's idea of dissuading companies from offering health care is shifting the burden away from the companies and onto the employees. It removes the advantage of buying in bulk and makes it more difficult for those with the tendency to be ill to get insurance.

This is yet another Rich get Richer and Poor get Poorer scheme and nothing more. Just stick it up there with McCain's S&L credentials, Banking deregulation, and the Enron Loophole.

Edit: And after seeing all of these HUGE institution belly up to the trough to feed more after stealing so many people's life savings.... How bad could universal healthcare really be? I mean, we're now NEVER EVER going to kill this debt. We will have to pay $1.00 per second for the next 300 years* just to cover the principle on the amount borrowed today.

*not making that up.

[Drew Dowdell]

The simple point of the matter is that Americans lead very unhealthy lifestyles. They should not be having to go to the doctor for anything unless it was quite serious. The amount of drugs that Americans are on because they have "problems" is dizzying and disgusting to me. COME ON PEOPLE, just cause you hurt your arm and it kinda hurts doesnt mean you need PAIN MEDS. A Pill CANNOT SOLVE all your problems. YOU YOURSELF CAN. This is the real root of our problems in my opinion (and as a hypochondriac i should know!). I have an extremely low threshold to pain, but when i get a cold, or have the flu, or have to have dental work, i dont drug myself up to get through it. I take the pain and ride along with it. I remember one time, a friend of mine got a new doctor. So the first time he sees the new doc the doc asks him what drugs he is currently on. My buddy said "i dont take anything," the doc then gave him a puzzling look and said "really?" That alone, i believe, shows how bad our society has become.

Frivolous things like this tie up our medical staff and drive up costs of health care due to damn near pointless use of drugs which the HMOs have to at least partially cover (so they charge everyone more to make up for it). And of course the old regulations on how drug makers can advertise should be re-instated

I'm the same way as you. I am very allergic to most anti-biotics so I refuse to take them unless I'm being carted to the ER. I don't want the few that I'm not allergic to lose their effectiveness.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

So for oral surgery we're just supposed to suck it up while they remove the wisdom teeth?.

Bite me.

I suppose if a bone breaks we should just let it heal itself and see how well that goes too. Screw the doctors or the cast!

Thats not what i said. However, i did deal with my wisdom teeth removed without pain meds AFTERWARDS (not during the surgery of course!) but that was because the vicoden made me very very sick.

Having your wisdom teeth out is a LEGITIMATE medical concern, and should be treated as such! I'm talking about more frivolous things (and let me be the first to admit that i have contributed to this!).

Breaking a bone is a VERY LEGIT concern, and once again should be fully treated! But if you minorly sprain your wrist (you know, like it will heal in a week without any problems), then BUCK UP (unless of course it is negatively affecting your job or something important like that). Your are doing nothing but wasting medical staffs time, honestly, what are they going to do for you? Of course, if you have reason to believe you may have broken a bone, then sure its a legit thing.

Another thing that really gets at me is people always want an anti-biotic or some drug to take care of their problem (that your body can probably handle by itself in a week or 2). Its been shown that overuse of anti-biotic has created very dangerous situations FOR US ALL, it is also a nice contributor to pointless drug use which helps drive up costs. Apparently it is so important to people to feel good in 3 days as opposed to 5 days that they are willing to put the entire world at risk of furthering the development of drug resistant strains. and once again i stress that if it is a legitimately serious thing, then by all means every drug, surgery, and alternative medicine, in the world should be thrown at you if it means saving your life or saving the use of your limbs etc

Leading a sedimentary life style, eating nothing but junk food, and never exercising often leads to diabetes. This is (in many many cases) an AVOIDABLE THING PEOPLE, but since people insist on doing it, it now costs us the HMO (or medicare) users money so that the HMO can cover these drugs to treat diabetes. High blood pressure is another, usually, avoidable thing. And once again, let me be the first to admit that i lead this kind of life myself.

How about skateboarders? Heres a group that often gets hurt (although i doubt they really tie up very much time or drugs or anything), but for the purpose of an analogy. Why should >>I<< be forced to help pay for some dumbass kid who breaks a bone while defacing public property and generally annoying people? Once again, im sure they are a very very insignificant cause for medical problems. Im just using this as an analogy.

So, my fellow Americans, it is time for us to take up own own responsiblity. Our health is largely due to how we contribute to it. We need to exercise more, eat better, and lead healthier lives so that we aren't constantly relying on the medical system, and when we do, the costs are somewhat more reasonable. I know that i am guilty of this, and i need to work on it, but if i do end up being affected by it, im not going to blame society, im not going to blame McDonalds, its my own damn fault and im the one who should be paying, not the rest of you.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Did you just advocate taxing the rich more to aid the poor? *hugs* I'm so proud of you! You're growing up so fast! *wipes away a tear*

I think you missed my point though. McCain's idea of dissuading companies from offering health care is shifting the burden away from the companies and onto the employees. It removes the advantage of buying in bulk and makes it more difficult for those with the tendency to be ill to get insurance.

This is yet another Rich get Richer and Poor get Poorer scheme and nothing more. Just stick it up there with McCain's S&L credentials, Banking deregulation, and the Enron Loophole.

Edit: And after seeing all of these HUGE institution belly up to the trough to feed more after stealing so many people's life savings.... How bad could universal healthcare really be? I mean, we're now NEVER EVER going to kill this debt. We will have to pay $1.00 per second for the next 300 years* just to cover the principle on the amount borrowed today.

*not making that up.

I know! if we really want to address health care at this time, we should wait until we have this deficit settled. tieing up 10% (and increasing daily) of our budget into interest is crazy. Additional government programs really need to be put on hold until this is all repaid IMO, the public won't want to hear it, but then again most of the public doesn't understand the ramifications of this in the long run. However, it seems as if Obama's method to do this is to cut our military/defense expenditures. I'm not really sure that's the best way to go about our deficit in these times.

EDIT:: You know Olds, the more we argue the more i come to think that we both really want the same exact thing, we just have different ideas of how to get there.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Teh Ricer Civic!