McCain's trend

[Drew Dowdell]

Not quite, the billionaire pays a lot larger income tax %. HOWEVER, if most of his income comes from capital gains, its only 15%. But on the same token, most middle/lower/working class people can get capital gains at only 5%.

The difference is most people dont actually invest in qualified stocks.

What I think you're trying to imply is that capital gains should be taxed as normal income. In that, we'd agree.

There would have to be exceptions for personal real estate.

[Robert Hall]

What does that chart mean? Increase or decrease from current tax rates (columns 2 & 3) ? If so, I'd have a slightly ($410) bigger decrease under the AZ senator.

Edited September 9, 2008 by moltar

[loki]

or.... you don't know enough about economics to understand why we have progressive taxation in the first place.

Flat taxes are inherently regressive. Even though the percentage of tax is the same, the burden on the lower classes is much greater.

so progressive, aka not equal, taxation is needed?

and equal taxation is unfair?

so the system is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't...? sounds like it should be dissolved.

[Drew Dowdell]

so progressive, aka not equal, taxation is needed?

and equal taxation is unfair?

so the system is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't...? sounds like it should be dissolved.

You're playing with semantics.

But yes, progressive taxation makes the burden even out... but that's just making it fair. Most people on here seem to be more concerned with using tax policy to manipulate the prosperity of the economy. Horse and Sparrow theorists have been consistently proven wrong in all except the most extreme of high tax cases.

Read my sig. If you want economic prosperity for the whole country and you're going to adjust taxes to do it, you cut taxes hard at the middle and lower classes. Those are the areas most likely to increase spending.

Whenever taxes have been cut for the wealthy, all that's happened is the wealth of this country has been concentrated higher and higher and the rest just get to eat cake.

For me, a heavy tax cut for everyone under $200,000 yearly income. Capital gains get taxed at the same rate unless the income comes from a homestead sale or retirement fund. Ending of tax breaks for sending jobs overseas. A "per-country" tariff to equalize costs of labor.

[gm4life]

gm4llife:

Another great point.... Dems. seem to always want to PUNISH the wealthy by HIGHER taxes,

so in other words, this is America,home of the free, land of opportunity, but if you actually

manage to ACCOMPLISH the American dream, you'll be PUNISHED FOR IT.

The wealthy should pay EXACTLY the same percentage tax wise as the rest of us.... not a

penny LESS (as some Republicans think) and not a penny MORE. EXACTLY the same.

Anything other is stupid and unfair.

It's like a gas-guzzler tax on low-mpg vehicles;

The low MPGs of a Viper or Hummer H1 ARE the taxes, stupid.

Fu%$ing what kind of logic is that?: your Hummer is going to cost you three times

as much fuel wise as a Corolla-S.... therefore you should be TAXED for it.

You're paying THREE times the taxes at the pump, what kind of double dipping is that!?

Many (not all) Democrats are lazy mot#erfuc%ers that have no motivation in life and will NOT

& can NOT ever even fathom working hard enough and making enough sacrifices to get ahead

in life and someday become wealthy... soif they're going to smootch off the rest of us working

class folk by staying on welfare & being worthless losers all their lives OF COURSE they want

HIGHER taxes for the rich, so that their handoutis ensured.

It's disgusting!

I'm broke like a joke and came from an immigrant family, my parents struggled to stay in the

very lower echelon of the low-middle class by working 2 jobs each all my life, but someday I

would hope that either I or one of my two daughters (Amelia should be here any day now)

will reach the American dream by owning my/their ow business or just making god money by

working for someone else's well established business... meantime I'm not going to work hard

to make sure when that day comes (I or they) am taxed extra HARD to keep the lazy, and

ignorant (who can't help themselves) well fed and therefore perpetuating the (broken) system!

Thank you 68 you are a very smart guy and your daughters can do anything they want too. It is America after-all! As for the broken system in the last paragraph that is so true we work are balls off and then some lazy a$$ gets my money. It is people like Obama want to make it all the worse. That is yet another reason why I support McCain.

Edited September 9, 2008 by gm4life

[gm4life]

Obama wants you to fill up your tires and get a tune-up. That kind of attitude won't cut in nor send the right messeage to the oil "Gods". Honestly the wealthly people will actually take a risk with there tax credit and invest in buisness and therefore create jobs for everyone! The rich take the risks that other people don't take and won't. Without them and there investment in this nation we can't keep going on or get out of a rut. Obama taxes plan in like Robin-Hood and that is a problem, and it is not fair. Wait until a loved one dies rich or poor you will have the $h! taxed out of you. Honestly 68 is right you pay tax on your gas and a hell of alot more of it is paid if you drive an H2 vs. a Cobalt the gas guzzler tax just is stupid as 68 said.

Edited September 9, 2008 by gm4life

[Drew Dowdell]

It is people like Obama want to make it all the worse.

Ok, I'm going to violate my own rule. What the hell kind of stupid comment is that?

[Drew Dowdell]

Obama wants you to fill up your tires and get a tune-up. That kind of attitude won't cut in nor send the right messeage to the oil "Gods". Honestly the wealthly people will actually take a risk with there tax credit and invest in buisness and therefore create jobs for everyon! The rich take the risks that other people don't take and won't. Without them and there investment in this nation we can't keep going on or get out of a rut. Obama taxes plan in like Robin-Hood and that is a problem, and it is not fair. Wait until a loved one dies rich or poor you will have the $h! taxed out of you. Honestly 68 is right you pay tax on your gas and a hell of alot more of it is paid if you drive an H2 vs. a Cobalt the gas guzzler tax just is stupid as 68 said.

You can keep posting that and you'll just keep being wrong. Repeating it over and over won't make it true. It doesn't work for SMK and it won't work for you.

I came from NOTHING and built my own business.

My dad came from NOTHING and built his own business.

My grandfather came from NOTHING and built his own business.

None of us got anything other than advice from our respective elders.

The company I used to work for was owned by a wealthy family. When the Bush tax cuts came out we got NOTHING. No raises, no bonuses, no nothing. They bought a new machine from a defunct competitor <the machine was purchased from the bank>, they fired most of the workers who used to work in the area where the new machine was being located and moved more production to El Salvador.

The proof is in the pudding, unemployment is UP since the Bush tax cuts. Businesses are closing or laying off workers. Companies are trying to sell their products to people who can no longer afford to purchase them and then scratching their heads as to why the economy is so bad.

Horse and Sparrow theory, Trickle Down theory, Supply Side economics whatever you want to call it, have 90 years of FAIL! Do NOT PASS GO! DO NOT COLLECT $200!

[gm4life]

I am no more wrong than you. You have a choice this year just like I do, I will make mine and so will you.

[Drew Dowdell]

I am no more wrong than you.

Uh, I have data and history on my side regarding economics. If you're trying to maintain that Horse and Sparrow works.... show it.

The only time that a tax cut on the wealthy worked was when JFK lowered the tax rate from it's absurd high of 91% for the wealthiest folk.

The boom after Reagan was from the deregulation of the credit market NOT the Reagan tax cuts. Proof? Marginal income stayed the same.

There was no boom after Bush's tax cuts as the unemployment figures and payroll figures show... the country has been kept afloat by manicly crazy credit policy and the fed printing presses running at full.

If I'm wrong, give me an argument as to why.

I am no more wrong than you.

doesn't cut it.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Olds, you realize that people that are currently in the lower tax brackets, who can somehow manage to scrape together enough money for capital investment, are only taxed at 5% on their capital gains right?

Its an often overlooked tax law.

[Drew Dowdell]

Olds, you realize that people that are currently in the lower tax brackets, who can somehow manage to scrape together enough money for capital investment, are only taxed at 5% on their capital gains right?

Its an often overlooked tax law.

Yes I realize that. The people that fall into that bracket are usually the elderly who have a small stock portfolio from decades ago or who are selling their house.

[loki]

You're playing with semantics.

But yes, progressive taxation makes the burden even out... but that's just making it fair. Most people on here seem to be more concerned with using tax policy to manipulate the prosperity of the economy. Horse and Sparrow theorists have been consistently proven wrong in all except the most extreme of high tax cases.

Read my sig. If you want economic prosperity for the whole country and you're going to adjust taxes to do it, you cut taxes hard at the middle and lower classes. Those are the areas most likely to increase spending.

yes, your sig, i agree. but the previous year was the beginning of the income tax, and the federal reserve. so maybe he was smart, paying people more was good and now they had income tax too. ford could write off alot more expenditures for paying people so with this maybe he lowered himself into a lower tax bracket.

~20 years later that $5 was worth 40% less.

and your "US oil independence will most likely be achieved through poverty." if it's done how you would like it done, with bulk investments, yes. the increase of the debt, or increasing of taxes on everyone.....and the companies that would be working doing that would get rich. horse and sparrow theory...or would these investments be regulated so that nobody profits, except the gov't...?

"Those are the areas most likely to increase spending." the lower and middle class? maybe, but wouldn't it be smarter to save that income they can keep again?.... or are you saying that they need tax relief so they can buy more taxed products that will increase the tax revenue to the states/federal gov't.... even if those $s are buying things from over seas and not made here in the USA?

[ocnblu]

"Vote for John McCain as long as you don't mind eating horse &#036;h&#33;." - Oldsmoboi

Oh honey, you just lost every last ounce of your credibility in this thread with that statement... telling me to stop insulting the Obama supporters, be nice, and all that other bull&#036;h&#33;. f@#k that. You repeatedly break your own rules and all bets are OFF, get it? NOBAMA!

[Satty]

NAMBLA?

[ocnblu]

NOBAMA!

[Satty]

I bet that if I put on weight, I'd look enough like Marlon Brando to join NAMBLA.

[Robert Hall]

"Vote for John McCain as long as you don't mind eating horse &#036;h&#33;." - Oldsmoboi

Oh honey, you just lost every last ounce of your credibility in this thread with that statement... telling me to stop insulting the Obama supporters, be nice, and all that other bull&#036;h&#33;. f@#k that. You repeatedly break your own rules and all bets are OFF, get it? NOBAMA!

A vote for McCain is a vote for the past. For the same old conservative bull&#036;h&#33;.

[ocnblu]

You sell yourself short. I think you're at the perfect weight right now to look like a member.

[ocnblu]

A vote for Nobama is a vote for the same old Tax & Spend Liberal bull&#036;h&#33;. We've seen it all before. Now it's just spoken of in a dreamy way. *Yawn*

[Satty]

Haven't the last 8 years been tax and spend? The national debt has nearly doubled since Clinton left office, and we dont have a whole lot to show for it. When FDR was doing it, we had something to show for it, like winning WWII.

[Robert Hall]

A vote for Nobama is a vote for the same old Tax & Spend Liberal bull&#036;h&#33;. We've seen it all before. Now it's just spoken of in a dreamy way. *Yawn*

As opposed to the Cut-Tax & Spend Conservative bull&#036;h&#33;? No one can spend as out of control as Republicans, as evidenced by the Bush/Cheney years... I am so sick of the hypocritical conservative nonsense in this country. They talk like their &#036;h&#33; doesn't smell because they think they have God on their side. F*ck 'em.

Edited September 10, 2008 by moltar

[Sixty8panther]

Te NOBAMA stickers are both creative and funny.

Oldsmoboi: I respect you and there's certainly points I agree with you about,

and these points are usually in the gray, not extreme left or far right... but

that having been said, sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.

[Drew Dowdell]

"Vote for John McCain as long as you don't mind eating horse &#036;h&#33;." - Oldsmoboi

Oh honey, you just lost every last ounce of your credibility in this thread with that statement... telling me to stop insulting the Obama supporters, be nice, and all that other bull&#036;h&#33;. f@#k that. You repeatedly break your own rules and all bets are OFF, get it? NOBAMA!

Read up on Horse and Sparrow theory and you'll understand why I said it that way.

[ocnblu]

I'll understand why you've broken rules you told me to abide by, rules that you wrote?

[Satty]

Something that has gone unmentioned. Obama's tax cuts will pass Congress without much debate, McCain's wont. Its simple numbers, When Jan 3rd rolls areound and the new Congress is sworn in, the Democrats will hold 55-60 seats in the Senate (60 would be a filibuster-proof majority) and 240-250 seats in the House. There is absolutely no way McCain would be able to get enough Democrats to jump ship to pass his tax cuts.

[Satty]

Why Oldsmoboi worded it the way he did:

horse-and-sparrow economics - that is, if you feed the horse well, some will pass on through and be there on the ground for the sparrow. There is no doubt that sparrows can be nourished in this manner; and the more the horses get fed, the more there will be on the ground for the sparrows to pick through. It is, however, probably not a very pleasant way for sparrows to get their sustenance, and, if one's primary goal is to feed the sparrows, it is a pretty silly - and inefficient - way to do the job.

[ocnblu]

You are discounting McCain's ability to reach across the aisle. He's made repeated overtures toward bipartisanship.

[Satty]

So has Obama. So did George W. Bush in 2000 and again in 2004. No Democrat is going to vote for McCain's tax plan, especially since they've been voting to kill them since the majority turned in 2006.

[Drew Dowdell]

"Vote for John McCain as long as you don't mind eating horse &#036;h&#33;." - Oldsmoboi

Oh honey, you just lost every last ounce of your credibility in this thread with that statement... telling me to stop insulting the Obama supporters, be nice, and all that other bull&#036;h&#33;. f@#k that. You repeatedly break your own rules and all bets are OFF, get it? NOBAMA!

You were right about something way back at the beginning of this thread. This was a terrible idea. For pages and pages I've tried to have reasonable debate with people. I've presented facts, with links, for the things the candidate I support is in favor of. I've posted links about the things McCain supports that I do not. The immaturity of the people that I have been friends with on this board for years STAGGERS me!

I'm fine with disagreeing about which political theories are better but all that comes back is "Obama is a dirty stinking muslim who wants to tax you into poverty and abort all your babies!"

You're so concerned about my credibility?!? You've yet to post any FACTS. NONE of the people who have been opposing my arguments has demonstrated even the most basic understanding of economics or tax policy. EVEN IF I'M WRONG NO ONE HERE COULD SAY WHY!

OCN you don't even understand the "horse&#036;h&#33;" reference because you have no idea what Horse and Sparrow theory is! Tend to your own credibility backyard, mine is rather lush with FACTS already.

[Sixty8panther]

Wait, so the horse is BIG Government... right? :AH-HA_wink:

[Robert Hall]

Wait, so the horse is BIG Government... right? :AH-HA_wink:

No..the old white corrupt rich men that run corporations.... feed them, and supposedly the sparrows (the general public) might get a bit of nourishment off the turds..

[Drew Dowdell]

I'll understand why you've broken rules you told me to abide by, rules that you wrote?

Because I've changed my mind about C&G having a political thread. I thought that my friends and neighbors here could handle this in a mature fashion . Congratulations OCN, you and a few others have proven me wrong.

[Robert Hall]

You were right about something way back at the beginning of this thread. This was a terrible idea. For pages and pages I've tried to have reasonable debate with people. I've presented facts, with links, for the things the candidate I support is in favor of. I've posted links about the things McCain supports that I do not. The immaturity of the people that I have been friends with on this board for years STAGGERS me!

I've learned over the years it's pointless to try and argue with conservatives..they believe their delusions so deeply, it's impossible for them have a rational discussion. It's impossible. All that religion and the smell of gun powder has warped their minds, I'm afraid..

[Drew Dowdell]

Wait, so the horse is BIG Government... right? :AH-HA_wink:

No, the horse is the Rockefellers, the Bloombergs, the Fords, the Goulds......

[ocnblu]

How could I not understand your horse&#036;h&#33; theory... you've posted about it to GREAT LENGTHS throughout this thread. Now please stop breaking your own rules, and stop talking down to people who listen to what is going on and have their own valid opinions.

[Drew Dowdell]

A vote for Nobama is a vote for the same old Tax & Spend Liberal bull&#036;h&#33;. We've seen it all before. Now it's just spoken of in a dreamy way. *Yawn*

George Bush already raised your taxes... probably more than any President ever has.... you just won't get the bill for a few more years....

oh yea,,, and there is a hefty interest charge too....

[Drew Dowdell]

Te NOBAMA stickers are both creative and funny.

Oldsmoboi: I respect you and there's certainly points I agree with you about,

and these points are usually in the gray, not extreme left or far right... but

that having been said, sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.

Disagreeing about which policy is correct is one thing. There are people here who don't even believe things published by their own candidate if it doesn't fit their warped views.

[Satty]

I prefer Stephen Colbert's explanation of supply-side economics:

you build the top floor first, you prop it up with homeless people, and you hope the rest of the house trickles down

[ocnblu]

"their warped views..."

[Drew Dowdell]

How could I not understand your horse&#036;h&#33; theory... you've posted about it to GREAT LENGTHS throughout this thread. Now please stop breaking your own rules, and stop talking down to people who listen to what is going on and have their own valid opinions.

The come back at me with why you think my economics is wrong but be prepared to back it up. Post something even vaguely factual about Obama's tax policy. Post something vaguely factual about Obama's energy policy.

But stop spreading misinformation!

I don't like John McCain but at least I'm not making &#036;h&#33; up about him.

[Drew Dowdell]

"their warped views..."

Yes... warped views. When you're posting lies and/or misinformation about the other candidate, it's a warped view.

You persist on saying that Obama is going to raise your taxes.... well, that Lincoln Mercury dealer must be paying you VERY well for you to be making over $250,000 a year from them..... because that is the ONLY way your taxes are going up OCN.

[Satty]

John McCain is 1/2 zombie

There, I made up something about him

And for the sake of being equal opportunity

Barack Obama is 1/2 leprechaun, and not the good kind, the one from the movie

[Drew Dowdell]

I prefer Stephen Colbert's explanation of supply-side economics:

I LOVE IT!

[Sixty8panther]

I have no problem agreeing that McCain is a dope, & imo B.O. is even MORE so.

If you remember, before a lot of the (my value judgment) disturbing , cold hard

facts came out about Obama I was a bit optimistic about him... I certainly would

NOT dislike a candidate based just on their respective party, that's ignorant.

I guess being a Libertarian means there's a ZERO% chance that the election will

address any of MY major issues.

[Drew Dowdell]

I have no problem agreeing that McCain is a dope, & imo B.O. is even MORE so.

If you remember, before a lot of the (my value judgment) disturbing , cold hard

facts came out about Obama I was a bit optimistic about him... I certainly would

NOT dislike a candidate based just on their respective party, that's ignorant.

I guess being a Libertarian means there's a ZERO% chance that the election will

address any of MY major issues.

If you're a Liberatarian, your SOL in this country. There are too many busy body PTA moms for that to happen.

[balthazar]

>>"No one can spend as out of control as Republicans"<<

BO has proposed over $1T in new spending out on the trail. He has also co-signed (w/ Biden) the World Povery Act, tentatively proposing to send another $845B overseas over the next 13 years. Great- I guess that's a monster FU to this country's infrastructure. How much would that accomplish towards energy independance ?? Add to that any claim to balance or even reduce the budget... and where, again, is that money going to come from?

Donate enough, moltar, and you can drop yourself into a lower brakcet and save under obama- feel free to do so. Me, I don't feel the 4-year risk of inexperience & radical views is worth a $281 bribe.

That said, I heard that a staggering 2 of the bills BO endorsed in his sparse, actual time 'in the office', out of 152, were actually made into law. Wonder if that's any indicator on how much "change" he'll be able to impliment, even with a huge Dem advantage. If it is, the OTC (Obama Tax Crush) isn't a worry after all.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Because I've changed my mind about C&G having a political thread. I thought that my friends and neighbors here could handle this in a mature fashion . Congratulations OCN, you and a few others have proven me wrong.

QFT

blu, thou doth protest too much, I think your goal isn't to have a political discussion, quite the contrary, I think your goal is to shut down any political threads on this site, because you don't believe in them. What other reason could you have for acting like a 4 year old? IMHO.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[FAPTurbo]

I've learned over the years it's pointless to try and argue with conservatives..they believe their delusions so deeply, it's impossible for them have a rational discussion. It's impossible. All that religion and the smell of gun powder has warped their minds, I'm afraid..

That's funny; I've learned over the years it's pointless to try and argue with 'liberals' because they all think we're bible-thumping, gun-powder snorting nutcases.

[Drew Dowdell]

>>"No one can spend as out of control as Republicans"<<

BO has proposed over $1T in new spending out on the trail. He has also co-signed (w/ Biden) the World Povery Act, tentatively proposing to send another $845B overseas over the next 13 years. Great- I guess that's a monster FU to this country's infrastructure. How much would that accomplish towards energy independance ?? Add to that any claim to balance or even reduce the budget... and where, again, is that money going to come from?

Donate enough, moltar, and you can drop yourself into a lower brakcet and save under obama- feel free to do so. Me, I don't feel the 4-year risk of inexperience & radical views is worth a $281 bribe.

That said, I heard that a staggering 2 of the bills BO endorsed in his sparse, actual time 'in the office', out of 152, were actually made into law. Wonder if that's any indicator on how much "change" he'll be able to impliment, even with a huge Dem advantage. If it is, the OTC (Obama Tax Crush) isn't a worry after all.

Bush doubled the country's debt on sunday....... in a single day the debt jumped 5 trillion.