Automotive News: Pontiac future products

[gm4life]

You make a good point cire.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Opels going to Pontiac will NEVER happen.

[cire]

Opels going to Pontiac will NEVER happen.

So basically GM is content to let the brand drown in mediocrity with twin-nostrilized Chevy clones until the inevitable day arrives when they pull the plug on it. That's a shame. Pontiac has a lot of potential that could be realized if GM would give it rebadged and slightly altered North American built Opel products. Opel cars (Corsa, Tigra, Astra, Insignia) would have given the brand some products that have a proper balance between fuel efficiency, sportiness, and moderately premium aspirations (basically, the qualities that Pontiac should have today). The cars would have required some slight decontenting and alterations to be successful as both Pontiacs and moderately premium cars in North America, but I believe those changes would have been less dramatic for Pontiac than they have been for Saturn. Even the next generation Opel MPVs and Antara crossover would have made nice additions to the Terrain and Acadia in GMC's lineup if GM wanted to transform the brand and move it out of the rapidly shrinking truck/SUV segment.

I think Opel is totally wasted on Saturn. Saturn's existence began as a quirky "cheap and cheerful" car division and that perception of Saturn will never change no matter how many Opels (either "real" like the Astra, Vue, and Sky or "faux" like the Aura and Outlook) GM stuffs in its product portfolio. Saturn shoppers aren't looking for anything edgy, sporty, or aspirational; they are looking for an affordable GM product that isn't badged as a Chevy. It seems to me that these customers would be just as satisfied with significantly modified Chevy products as they would be with altered Opels. In fact, they would probably be much happier since the products would be closer to the budget price points that Saturn shoppers value as a top priority. This situation should start when the Cruze hits the U.S. market. GM should introduce a significantly altered version for Saturn (completely revised front/rear and interior design) maybe six months after the introduction of the Cruze. If GM is under the impression that it needs 2 brands to cover the mainstream affordable volume end of the market, this seems like the direction they should go (which seems like it wouldn't be necessary if GM would just focus on making Chevy strong and competitive).

From the way your post was submitted, I am assuming this is totally out of the question (no matter how much it makes sense). I could really come to terms with GM abandoning the all RWD lineup (hopefully not completely abandoned) for Pontiac if they would substitute some of it with something besides rebadged Chevy clones and reworked Toyota products. GM has the opportunities (Saturn as an alternative volume brand to Chevy and Pontiac as a moderately premium sporty brand), but they have their product strategies severely mixed up to take advantage of these opportunities.

[dwightlooi]

There is nothing wrong with FWD, fuel economy focused vehicles*. What's wrong is selling the same basic thing under several different brands.

IMHO, if two brands are selling the same thing then there is no need for two brands! I am sick of this brand engineering BS already. If GM doesn't want a full line, performance and driving experience focused brand then it should get rid of Pontiac or reduce it to a maker of the Solstice and other niche vehicle models. Otherwise, GM should do its darnest to give it a product line that is as different from Chevy's as possible. It doesn't make sense to make a Pontiac and Chevy version of the Cruze and the Malibu. Pontiac doesn't have to have its own version of everything Chevy, in fact the whole point should be that it DOESN'T. If it does, then all you'll be doing is splitting the pie between the two brands; you won't be baking a bigger pie!

I think the future Pontiac line up should be:-

Mainstream:

G4 -> Alpha Kurz Platform Coupe (Compact RWD w/2.0 liter DI VVT NA, Turbo or HO Turbo engine (170~310hp) ~ 2900 lbs

G6 -> Alpha Platform Sedan (Compact RWD) w/2.0 liter DI VVT NA, Turbo or HO Turbo engine (170~310hp) ~ 3200 lbs

G8 -> Zeta Platform (Mid-size RWD) w/3.6 liter DI VVT or 6.2 liter OHV engines (300~432hp) ~3700 lbs

Solstice -> Kappa Platform (Compact RWD - coupe/roadster) w/ 2.0 liter DI VVT NA or Turbo engine (170~260hp) ~2900 lbs

Performance Hybrids**:

E4 -> Alpha Kurz Platform Coupe (Compact RWD w/2.0 liter DI VVT Turbo engine + 60hp electric assist (260+60hp) ~ 3200 lbs

E6 -> Alpha Platform Sedan (Compact RWD) w/2.0 liter DI VVT Turbo engine + 60hp electric assist (260+60hp) ~ 3500 lbs

E8 -> Zeta Platform (Mid-size RWD) w/2.0 liter DI VVT Turbo engine + 60hp electric assist (260 + 60hp) ~4000 lbs

Solstice Electra -> Kappa Platform (Compact RWD - coupe/roadster) w/2.0 liter DI VVT Turbo engine + 60hp electric assist (260 + 60hp) ~3200 lbs

Cancelled -> All Pontiac SUVs, Vibe (crossover)

*Technical Side Note: Who says that fuel efficiency and RWD are mutually exclusive? Really it comes down to drive train loss and an addition 100 lbs or so of platform weight on a 3000 lbs class vehicle. Typical RWD drive train loss is ~ 15% whereas FWD is ~10%, a 5% difference. In terms of MPG, you are looking at a similar 5% reduction such at a 22/30mpg vehicle will then become about 21/28.5mpg -- really does that matter that much? You can make more of a difference switching tire types and/or inflation pressures than switching from RWD to FWD! The 100 lbs increase probably doesn't even register on the fuel economy sticker -- it's like the difference between driving with a full 16 gallon tank and a near empty one with 1 gallon of fuel left in it (15 gallons = 57 liters = 45.6 kg = 100.4 lbs!

**Technical Side Note: All Hybrid Pontiac models should use the same hybrid add-on for developmental expedience and economy. This includes a Li-Ion battery pack replacing the spare tire well and a 60hp (45kW) permanent-magnet rear-differential-motor-generator (RDMG). This is actually two separtate 30hp motors coupled to the left and right differential output shafts. The entire system should weigh in at a 300 lbs mass delta. One side benefit of the hybrids can be "Regenerative Active Handling". Because the motors are independently coupled to the left and right outputs, and are by nature capable of functioning as motors or generators, the computer can electronically add or remove up to 30hp from both the inside or outside rear wheel during hard cornering. This can be used to automatically correct for understeer or oversteer using differential electric motor input or power draw. In fact, if properly managed the use of active handling won't even deplete the battery pack because the power used by the motor on one side is actually generated by the motor on the otherside (minus the 10% or so generation/induction loss)!

Edited October 9, 2008 by dwightlooi

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Opels going to Pontiac will NEVER happen.

Nah... They'll instead LANGUISH at a dealer network that is too small to matter and continue to sell at 15/month.

Maybe Pontiac should use it's extensive dealer network to it's advantage. "Give us Opels and you'll ACTUALLY SELL some of them here."

Despite your striving to make it seem like a 'war of politics' PCS, I think the underlying (READ: yes, politics might be involved on top of this) reason that Pontiac will not get Opels is because the Pontiac name cannot bring enough R.O.I. on Opel products to justify it.

I also think that's ONE of the reasons GM is debating locking Pontiac out of Alpha. If Alpha is to be a "one size fits all RWD platfform" (The article posted hints at that and you yourself said it would accomodate 4,6 & 8 cylinder engines) And if Alpha is to remain C.A.F.E. positive, it will require HEAVY investment.

Cadillac and Buick (mostly thanks to China) can provide a good R.O.I. and Chevrolet can move enough units to negate the slim profit margin. I have a feeling that Pontiac and Holden, since they're not global and since they're more focused (i.e. less potential volume from alpha) and since they're mid level brands (i.e. less profit margin, if any) are having a hard time convincing GM that they should be on the program.

That's sad to me... That the industry is being FORCED into bi-polar homogeny. In the future; either you can buy a $h!ty homogenous 'appliance' for average money or you can step up the price ladder substantially and get a car that you desire (the same cars that today, we take for granted)

As a buyer, that leaves me out because I don't want an appliance and I don't want a pretentious 'pig with lipstick' (although a CTS-V does sound amazing )

This is yet another area where GM could make Pontiac a real winner. But hey, what do I know? I'm not pessimistic enough or blind enough or trained to think status quo enough to make it in Detroit.

(On second thought PCS, if we ever do get to meet, I think cars and Detroit should definitely be the topic of conversation. )

Edited October 9, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[BatmanGTO]

Opels going to Pontiac will NEVER happen.

sweet..... Audi S5 here i come

[The O.C.]

Nah... They'll instead LANGUISH at a dealer network that is too small to matter and continue to sell at 15/month.

Maybe Pontiac should use it's extensive dealer network to it's advantage. "Give us Opels and you'll ACTUALLY SELL some of them here."

Despite your striving to make it seem like a 'war of politics' PCS, I think the underlying (READ: yes, politics might be involved on top of this) reason that Pontiac will not get Opels is because the Pontiac name cannot bring enough R.O.I. on Opel products to justify it.

I also think that's ONE of the reasons GM is debating locking Pontiac out of Alpha. If Alpha is to be a "one size fits all RWD platfform" (The article posted hints at that and you yourself said it would accomodate 4,6 & 8 cylinder engines) And if Alpha is to remain C.A.F.E. positive, it will require HEAVY investment.

Cadillac and Buick (mostly thanks to China) can provide a good R.O.I. and Chevrolet can move enough units to negate the slim profit margin. I have a feeling that Pontiac and Holden, since they're not global and since they're more focused (i.e. less potential volume from alpha) and since they're mid level brands (i.e. less profit margin, if any) are having a hard time convincing GM that they should be on the program.

That's sad to me... That the industry is being FORCED into bi-polar homogeny. In the future; either you can buy a $h!ty homogenous 'appliance' for average money or you can step up the price ladder substantially and get a car that you desire (the same cars that today, we take for granted)

As a buyer, that leaves me out because I don't want an appliance and I don't want a pretentious 'pig with lipstick' (although a CTS-V does sound amazing )

This is yet another area where GM could make Pontiac a real winner. But hey, what do I know? I'm not pessimistic enough or blind enough or trained to think status quo enough to make it in Detroit.

(On second thought PCS, if we ever do get to meet, I think cars and Detroit should definitely be the topic of conversation. )

I just read my latest Autocar last night.....and they had an extensive first-drive of the new Insignia (with the 2.0L Turbo) and had lots of great, glossy photos of their black-on-black test car.

IMHO, I can't believe this is a GM product. After studying the interior photos, I came to the conclusion that it looked good enough to pass muster as a Caddy interior.....or at least something way more upscale.

That got me to thinking, once again......WHY DON'T WE GET THIS PRODUCT undiluted, here in the U.S.? Frankly, there is not a car in the U.S. lineup (Malibu and Aura included) that holds a candle to the new Insignia.

Then I thought......who should get it?

Buick? With a product this good, unfortunately, Buick's old-man, cruiser-mobile image would ruin this car's chances for volume success.

Pontiac? This thought is what made me put this post in this Pontiac thread. Well, no question this would make an AWESOME new G6. But then, you get to deal with all the whining Saturn dealers that don't get the car. Plus, with Pontiac's dwindling position in the marketplace, would it be so smart to hoist such a vital, important, and fully-competitive product on a brand that very well may have it's days numbered?

Saturn? Probably a good fit. However.....

.......what I really realized is......that the Insignia is THE car that Chevy needs. A volume, mainstream midsize sedan that is good enough to not only compete with the Camrys and Accords of the world, but actually maybe beat them. Frankly even the Malibu doesn't exude the kind of class and style (inside AND outside) that GME has managed with the Insignia.

Even more importantly, Chevy has the dealer body and marketing dollars to support the volume this vehicle has the ability to put forth.

Once again, it comes down to the fact that, really, GM truly needs a strong, high-volume Chevrolet brand offering world-class mainstream products.....and a high-end Cadillac brand to battle the premium offerings.

Everything else, sadly, has very weak legs to stand on in regards to a place in the GM lineup.

[regfootball]

and today we read how lutz says the insignia will not be the aura.

translation- the US aura will be cost cut.

it becomes really easy to HATE GM for this.

[cire]

and today we read how lutz says the insignia will not be the aura.

translation- the US aura will be cost cut.

it becomes really easy to HATE GM for this.

I think the overall styling between the Insignia and next gen Aura will be much different also. The Insignia's 4-door coupe profile limits passenger and cargo volume. I think GM realizes that the Insignia's proportions and reduced utility will make it unpopular and unappealing to Saturn's customer base.

[The O.C.]

The Insignia's 4-door coupe profile limits passenger and cargo volume.

......not according to Autocar.....

In fact, they are suggesting that this car is good enough to topple the vaunted Mondeo as soon as they get it in one of their Group Tests. They also offered flattering comparisons with premium "rep" cars such as the 3-Series and C-Class.......

[Oracle of Delphi]

(On second thought PCS, if we ever do get to meet, I think cars and Detroit should definitely be the topic of conversation. )

I look forward to that day as well!

[cire]

......not according to Autocar.....

In fact, they are suggesting that this car is good enough to topple the vaunted Mondeo as soon as they get it in one of their Group Tests. They also offered flattering comparisons with premium "rep" cars such as the 3-Series and C-Class.......

The Insignia looks to be a well executed premium sedan. I never questioned the car's credentials on this aspect. It might also be considered exceptionally roomy by Euro standards (where smaller cars are the norm). For the car to be successful for mainstream midsize sedan buyers in the U.S. (and "mainstream" is Saturn's market, no matter how much GM wants to deny it), it needs to meet U.S. buyers' expectations of roominess and affordability for a mainstream midsize sedan. This is where I believe the car will falter if it is badged as a Saturn (and I think GM realizes it too). However, I can see the Insignia joining Buick's lineup as a smaller and sportier counterpart to the upcoming LWB Eps II based LaCrosse sedan (much like it will do in China). This is why I translate Bob Lutz's comments on the next gen Aura as meaning that the car will be significantly different from the Insignia. Just like the current Aura was significantly different from the Vectra, I believe that the only elements that will be shared between the next gen Aura and the Insignia are the Opel specific design cues. This would serve to justify the reason why the next gen Aura has been delayed.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Pontiac? This thought is what made me put this post in this Pontiac thread. Well, no question this would make an AWESOME new G6. But then, you get to deal with all the whining Saturn dealers that don't get the car. Plus, with Pontiac's dwindling position in the marketplace, would it be so smart to hoist such a vital, important, and fully-competitive product on a brand that very well may have it's days numbered?

The fact that Pontiac (GM's second best selling division) has a dwindling place in the market is enough to "Next Day Air" the Insignia here as a G6. GM needs volume to survive (Or so they say) They have a MASSIVE dealer network that features a name with so much equity that EVERY american knows something about it (Good or bad) And that network desperately needs good volume product.

But instead, GM would rather take the car and appeal to a limited audience with a brand that is trying to capture a broad and uncaring audience that knows NOTHING about the brand in question, or even where it stands in the market.

.......what I really realized is......that the Insignia is THE car that Chevy needs. A volume, mainstream midsize sedan that is good enough to not only compete with the Camrys and Accords of the world, but actually maybe beat them. Frankly even the Malibu doesn't exude the kind of class and style (inside AND outside) that GME has managed with the Insignia.

1) I disagree. The Malibu is a very sweet car and looks to be a huge success.

2) According to GM, being class and style isn't Chevy's mission. (Especially now that apparently we'll be getting Daewoo junk)

Once again, it comes down to the fact that, really, GM truly needs a strong, high-volume Chevrolet brand offering world-class mainstream products.....and a high-end Cadillac brand to battle the premium offerings.

True...

But it also needs more focused divisions for those of us that do not want the monotony of a Cadillac or Chevrolet. I have no doubt that this is why Detroit IS NOT dead yet. Eventhough they've been losing sales, the sales they've maintained are either die-hards or people that DO NOT WANT the appliances that the japanese brands and luxury brands provide. I want something unique... I don't buy a Lexus, because I don't want to own the same car as 15 other people on my street.

Everything else, sadly, has very weak legs to stand on in regards to a place in the GM lineup.

I disagree...

Wait 'til C.A.F.E. is fully felt. Chevy will be peddling updated 80's junk that none of us would be caught dead in (excluding a few models -- if those models survive) and Cadillac will be peddling great cars that 75-80% of us can't afford.

That leaves the middle of the market WIDE OPEN and the company that can exploit that middle market with unique offerings (READ: Scion will do it, just wait and see -- funny no one wants them to be phased out) will see huge increases.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

and today we read how lutz says the insignia will not be the aura.

translation- the US aura will be cost cut.

it becomes really easy to HATE GM for this.

That's because Saturn is having the same problem Pontiac is having... It can't justify the price of the new cars to consumers.

It's funny that GM thinks it can forsake Pontiac and all of that equity in favor of a brand that has sold nothing but outdated, discounted compact cars to a fraction of the market for the last 6 years and suddenly build that brand into a mid-lux, european flavored volume machine overnight.

Really?!?! Give me a break. I mean, I was hopeful, just like every GM fan, but in the back of all our minds we we're all saying; "I'm not sure about this."

In reality, the Insignia, at it's current price should be in BUICK showrooms (See my suggestions in the To GM section) and that's what pisses me off so bad about PCS yelling that Pontiac should be displaced by Saturn. Because if that ever happens, the argument will then be: "Why don't we just replace Buick with Opel since they're roughly the same content/price"

Where will it stop??? At what point will Saab be battling Cadillac? (They already are IMO, with Saabs foray into green sh*t and the competing models in the dealer channel (EX: 9-4X & SRX- same frickin' name almost)

Pontiac will not be repaired overnight, and because of that GM is abandoning the division, just like they abandoned Oldsmobile when it didn't revive itself overnight. (Eventhough it was showing very positive signs until the 1998 strike)

I'm going to make a bold prediction that GM will do the same with Saturn in 3-5 years for the same reason. The division will either be closed down (The dealers won't be a big issue if GM continues to hurt like it is) or replaced with Opel or swallowed up by Buick.

In america, corporations must have profits NOW. And that is a big reason why our businesses are failing. Unlike, the japanese, for instance we won't allow anything time to regenerate or show results. Because of that, no one cares about the long-term and that's a HUGE reason why Japan Inc. is killing us in this sector. (And will continue to IMO)

Saab is the only wild card at the table, and I think the ONLY reasons GM hasn't sent it to the grave yet are 1) They're hanging onto the outdated and very stupid ideology that Saab can somehow transcend the domestic bias. Yeah right, the media has already "informed" the consumer not to buy GM owned Saabs for at least 10 years now. Not to mention, Saab like Saturn has absolutely NO equity/identity with an even bigger (than Saturn) majority of the buying public. 2) GM still believes that, if it gets really desperate, it can sell Saab and raise some cash. (Maybe $5 or so)

Or 3) Saab somehow is favored over the HUNDREDS of years of history and MILLIONS of sales of all the core GM divisions.

Edited October 11, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[hyperv6]

The state GM is in right now we can debate Pontiac and Buick all day but end up with only Chevy and Cadillac in the end.

With the market as it is all bets are off and anything that is not easily sorted out can be cut so much eaiser.

Pontiac, Buick and Saturn can turn Gangreen so easy right now that GM may jusr retire a name or two till they can get their house in order. Oh sorry that is for sales too.

The biggest thing is how long will the economy take to recover? 6 months? A year? Anything over 6 months is dire for GM.

It is more about saving GM NA today vs just saving a few Pontiacs and Buicks. Less models and divisions may be the only way out now.

[Blake Noble]

Opels going to Pontiac will NEVER happen.

Oh, but they look so pretty.

[Camino LS6]

The state GM is in right now we can debate Pontiac and Buick all day but end up with only Chevy and Cadillac in the end.

With the market as it is all bets are off and anything that is not easily sorted out can be cut so much eaiser.

Pontiac, Buick and Saturn can turn Gangreen so easy right now that GM may jusr retire a name or two till they can get their house in order. Oh sorry that is for sales too.

The biggest thing is how long will the economy take to recover? 6 months? A year? Anything over 6 months is dire for GM.

It is more about saving GM NA today vs just saving a few Pontiacs and Buicks. Less models and divisions may be the only way out now.

If all they are going to save is Caddy and Chevy, it hardly seems worth the effort.

[regfootball]

i actually don't get why saturn couldn't sell the insignia as is, side by side with the current aura. the insignia is premium in comparison. the aura could cover lower prices and have greater volume. the insignia could be the top of the line and could bear a little higher price tag. aura can't totally compete with the likes of the new mazda6 (trust me, sit in one, and you understand that). insignia could actually one up the mazda6. If saturn is serious about going toe to toe with imports, then they need to have the best model available. also, the insignia will just not come off well as a buick. the next astra has similar styling to the insignia. it all makes sense, yet GM won't do it. it wouldn't hurt for them to import 20-30k of them a year, to build the brands image if nothing else. the aura still can be the volume and value car, but the insignia would give it real cred.

don't knock the saab/caddy pairing until you've seen them share a showroom. it seems to work IMHO. it means each brand can feed off each other, and it means saab can move down in size if they want. it also means saab can remain fwd based and leave rwd to caddy. i think once the 9-4x and next 9-5 hit the market saab will uptick, unless GM decides to push their pricing even higher. 9-3 should do alright if they would adjust that pricing also.

i have ideas regarding chevy and bpg to fit around this but i think i am hlf asleep as i type this. already.

saturn wanted to be opel north america...however, they already have butchered the antara interior, they muted the astra's offerings and now they will neuter the chance of getting the best car, the insignia. basically, GM doesn't have a f*cking clue how to keep their head out of their ass (or bankruptcy, take your pick).

Edited October 13, 2008 by regfootball

[gm4life]

If all they are going to save is Caddy and Chevy, it hardly seems worth the effort.

Agreed.

[hyperv6]

If all they are going to save is Caddy and Chevy, it hardly seems worth the effort.

Now stop that! You have to stop thinking as enthusiast and start thinking as a share holder looking for a profit.

Lets face it Chevy and Caddy are the only NA brands targeted as world wide brands. Saturn could be renamed Opel here and it may or may not worl but the cost to try is little.

Buick is not amounting to anything outside of China and Pontiac at this point has little appeal to anyone out side a G8 or Solstice. The money it would take to fix Pontiac is just not their unless you just rebadge cars.

I would be happier if they parked Pontiac till they can fund it right vs tarnishing it with a rebadged Aveo or a new nose on the Camaro.

I would rather lose 2 legs vs my life. Somtimes you just can't have it all.

The bottom line is to make money and all the finger pointing and reshuffling products are just not cutting it. Many here have said for a long time GM need less divisions and models and I am sad to say I know now they are right.

I have placed my first choice to see GM saved vs just saving Buick and Pontiac. If we lose GM what good will saving Pontiac be? Let GM bring back back a Buick or Pontiac right at a later time when they can do it right and with a clean sheet of paper.

I am not saying this for a argument but after a long look at all that is going on> I have also spoken to many people in the industry. Many of them would have never felt this way now are. Thy just as I see no other way out.

Edited October 13, 2008 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

Now stop that! You have to stop thinking as enthusiast and start thinking as a share holder looking for a profit.

Lets face it Chevy and Caddy are the only NA brands targeted as world wide brands. Saturn could be renamed Opel here and it may or may not worl but the cost to try is little.

Buick is not amounting to anything outside of China and Pontiac at this point has little appeal to anyone out side a G8 or Solstice. The money it would take to fix Pontiac is just not their unless you just rebadge cars.

I would be happier if they parked Pontiac till they can fund it right vs tarnishing it with a rebadged Aveo or a new nose on the Camaro.

I would rather lose 2 legs vs my life. Somtimes you just can't have it all.

The bottom line is to make money and all the finger pointing and reshuffling products are just not cutting it. Many here have said for a long time GM need less divisions and models and I am sad to say I know now they are right.

I have placed my first choice to see GM saved vs just saving Buick and Pontiac. If we lose GM what good will saving Pontiac be? Let GM bring back back a Buick or Pontiac right at a later time when they can do it right and with a clean sheet of paper.

I am not saying this for a argument but after a long look at all that is going on> I have also spoken to many people in the industry. Many of them would have never felt this way now are. Thy just as I see no other way out.

Well Hyper, I just don't see any pluses to killing brands. So I reject the premise that it is the "only way out". I think it is a recipe for failure and will not bring about the desired result.

Killing models is another story.

So no, I have no intention of holding back on comments such as the one you quoted.

[gm4life]

Once again Camino is right.

[hyperv6]

Well Hyper, I just don't see any pluses to killing brands. So I reject the premise that it is the "only way out". I think it is a recipe for failure and will not bring about the desired result.

Killing models is another story.

So no, I have no intention of holding back on comments such as the one you quoted.

Camaino I respect and welcome your replies. You have a right to say what you want and yopu may even change my mind if you can present a good case. That is the way it used to work around here.

Anymore it is a few opinions and a bunch of Pandering yes post.

My veiw is GM is having trouble getting just 2-3 divisions right. How are we to expect them to fix two other divisions when they don't have the money to do it let alone do it right?

You know me enough that I would really hate to see Pontiac go away but I would even hate it more to see GM go away. Right now I want them to save the corperation more than just a division that they have not done much to help in going on how many years now. Pontiac needs a major overhaul and they just don't have the money to do it right at this time.

I would rather see them put Pontiac on hold get the GM house in order and reintro Pontiac with the right products and right image at a later time.

It is no longer about division, being #1, or fun cars it is all about making money. Right now Pontiac has lost me as they do not offer anyting I want. I may buy a G8 for the wife if they are still around but it is too soon to tell. The Solstice is a great car but two seats. Also the G8 ST is great but Two seats.

As for the rest of the line up they can have it. The G6 pales to the Malibu. I have a good amount of time behind the wheel of both and have a good insight on each. If I want as Toyota I would buy a zToyota not a Vibe.

The G5 if offered with a Turbo would be a hit but only one was built at Lordstown where they showed me it would stay till it is distroyed.

Fixing Pontiac right now is like fixing a old house. It take a lot of money to do it right. IF you don't do it right it may just burn down and take the rest of your tings with it.

Sorry for being negitive but GM just has taken to long to fix them and right now GM needs fixed first.

I don't expect you to agree but I hope you understand where I am coming from.

[Camino LS6]

Camaino I respect and welcome your replies. You have a right to say what you want and yopu may even change my mind if you can present a good case. That is the way it used to work around here.

Anymore it is a few opinions and a bunch of Pandering yes post.

My veiw is GM is having trouble getting just 2-3 divisions right. How are we to expect them to fix two other divisions when they don't have the money to do it let alone do it right?

You know me enough that I would really hate to see Pontiac go away but I would even hate it more to see GM go away. Right now I want them to save the corperation more than just a division that they have not done much to help in going on how many years now. Pontiac needs a major overhaul and they just don't have the money to do it right at this time.

I would rather see them put Pontiac on hold get the GM house in order and reintro Pontiac with the right products and right image at a later time.

It is no longer about division, being #1, or fun cars it is all about making money. Right now Pontiac has lost me as they do not offer anyting I want. I may buy a G8 for the wife if they are still around but it is too soon to tell. The Solstice is a great car but two seats. Also the G8 ST is great but Two seats.

As for the rest of the line up they can have it. The G6 pales to the Malibu. I have a good amount of time behind the wheel of both and have a good insight on each. If I want as Toyota I would buy a zToyota not a Vibe.

The G5 if offered with a Turbo would be a hit but only one was built at Lordstown where they showed me it would stay till it is distroyed.

Fixing Pontiac right now is like fixing a old house. It take a lot of money to do it right. IF you don't do it right it may just burn down and take the rest of your tings with it.

Sorry for being negitive but GM just has taken to long to fix them and right now GM needs fixed first.

I don't expect you to agree but I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Oh I get where you are coming from, I just reject the premise that it will benefit GM to kill Pontiac or any other core brand. There is this assumption that things will improve for GM if it cuts a brand or brands - I simply don't believe that. I'll spare you a long post about which models at which brands I would change/cut/add, but suffice it to say that I see far better options than simply killing-off brands. I believe that GM can (and must) do more with less, I would just go at the issue from a different set of parameters. If I had time to do the topic justice, I would write and post the full "manifesto". But I simply don't have the time, and no one seems willing to think beyond the knee-jerk "solution" of killing brands. That mantra has been around so long that it verges on self-fulfilling prophecy because too many people blindly believe it.

I see other options.

Better options.

[hyperv6]

Oh I get where you are coming from, I just reject the premise that it will benefit GM to kill Pontiac or any other core brand. There is this assumption that things will improve for GM if it cuts a brand or brands - I simply don't believe that. I'll spare you a long post about which models at which brands I would change/cut/add, but suffice it to say that I see far better options than simply killing-off brands. I believe that GM can (and must) do more with less, I would just go at the issue from a different set of parameters. If I had time to do the topic justice, I would write and post the full "manifesto". But I simply don't have the time, and no one seems willing to think beyond the knee-jerk "solution" of killing brands. That mantra has been around so long that it verges on self-fulfilling prophecy because too many people blindly believe it.

I see other options.

Better options.

I just don't see it as a knee jerk deal. I see it as a way to take money from a division that is damaged and spending a lot of money on with little results. I would rather see it using the money to save the rest of the company.

Right now it is like seeing you Grandfather dying from cancer. You hate to lose him but the doctors are not doing much to save him. I hate to see him suffer and remember him as he was not as he is.

I would rather see Pontiac on hold before they are tarnished anymore than they already have. If they can bring back the Camaro they can bring back Pontiac too.

The bottom line is I just don't see GM having the money to fix Pontiac right and the damage they will do will make it impossible to save them later. That is if there is a later.

We can debate models here all we want to save the company. But the problem is we are not GM and they are not getting it done. Also We don't have to pay for it. I think that is what is holding things up is there just is not not enough money for divisions like Pontiac that are now just a small part of the big picture.

Now if Pontiac was sold world wide that would be a different story.

I think the time is coming that most if not all models will have to be sold world wide in some form or it will not be sold at all.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Now stop that! You have to stop thinking as enthusiast and start thinking as a share holder looking for a profit.

Lets face it Chevy and Caddy are the only NA brands targeted as world wide brands. Saturn could be renamed Opel here and it may or may not worl but the cost to try is little.

Buick is not amounting to anything outside of China and Pontiac at this point has little appeal to anyone out side a G8 or Solstice. The money it would take to fix Pontiac is just not their unless you just rebadge cars.

I would be happier if they parked Pontiac till they can fund it right vs tarnishing it with a rebadged Aveo or a new nose on the Camaro.

I would rather lose 2 legs vs my life. Somtimes you just can't have it all.

The bottom line is to make money and all the finger pointing and reshuffling products are just not cutting it. Many here have said for a long time GM need less divisions and models and I am sad to say I know now they are right.

I have placed my first choice to see GM saved vs just saving Buick and Pontiac. If we lose GM what good will saving Pontiac be? Let GM bring back back a Buick or Pontiac right at a later time when they can do it right and with a clean sheet of paper.

I am not saying this for a argument but after a long look at all that is going on> I have also spoken to many people in the industry. Many of them would have never felt this way now are. Thy just as I see no other way out.

That day will never come...

We must try to MAINTAIN what we have because *if* GM dynamites the whole structure and starts over, the market will eat them alive.

It's now or never. GM will not just magically become a profit machine and expansion company by focusing on Chevrolet and Cadillac. What it will become (if it chooses this path) is a niche automaker. (Think: VW) And when that happens, this whole cost verses R.O.I. and market share loss argument will start over again. Except this time, we'll be bitching about what countries we should pull out of and whether we should maintain 7% of the market or give up and try to "re-boot" the company at 5% of the market.

That's my point. No good general has ever voluntarily given up ground during a battle, only to gain that ground and then some more back with a smaller amount of troops and ammo.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Camaino I respect and welcome your replies. You have a right to say what you want and yopu may even change my mind if you can present a good case. That is the way it used to work around here.

Anymore it is a few opinions and a bunch of Pandering yes post.

My veiw is GM is having trouble getting just 2-3 divisions right. How are we to expect them to fix two other divisions when they don't have the money to do it let alone do it right?

You know me enough that I would really hate to see Pontiac go away but I would even hate it more to see GM go away. Right now I want them to save the corperation more than just a division that they have not done much to help in going on how many years now. Pontiac needs a major overhaul and they just don't have the money to do it right at this time.

I would rather see them put Pontiac on hold get the GM house in order and reintro Pontiac with the right products and right image at a later time.

It is no longer about division, being #1, or fun cars it is all about making money. Right now Pontiac has lost me as they do not offer anyting I want. I may buy a G8 for the wife if they are still around but it is too soon to tell. The Solstice is a great car but two seats. Also the G8 ST is great but Two seats.

As for the rest of the line up they can have it. The G6 pales to the Malibu. I have a good amount of time behind the wheel of both and have a good insight on each. If I want as Toyota I would buy a zToyota not a Vibe.

The G5 if offered with a Turbo would be a hit but only one was built at Lordstown where they showed me it would stay till it is distroyed.

Fixing Pontiac right now is like fixing a old house. It take a lot of money to do it right. IF you don't do it right it may just burn down and take the rest of your tings with it.

Sorry for being negitive but GM just has taken to long to fix them and right now GM needs fixed first.

I don't expect you to agree but I hope you understand where I am coming from.

GM has the tools at its disposal to build a much more pure and competitive Pontiac division. Little to no investment is needed.

GM, if they phase out another division, will just be giving in to defeat and giving the import humpers in the industry and media what they want; an ever diminishing domestic auto industry.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I just don't see it as a knee jerk deal. I see it as a way to take money from a division that is damaged and spending a lot of money on with little results. I would rather see it using the money to save the rest of the company.

How? What platforms, powertrains, components, etc. does Pontiac use exclusively that would create such a cost savings?

How about management and marketing? NOPE. All of that is integrated with GMC and Buick now, which is why LaNeve said that GM "has 4 divisions now", not 8.

Dealers? Nope. The dealer buy out alone would cost you more than you'd save by killing the division. Keep in mind, these are the same dealers that are so desperate to make a buck that they tack thousands of dollars in premiums on to ANY desireable Pontiac GM produces. (Which also proves that the name still has a lot of good equity)

Product development? Not really, especially since all of the future Pontiacs are supposedly re-badges.

And the sad irony of it all is; the more Pontiac becomes a brand of re-badges, the LESS money GM will save by killing the division.

Right now it is like seeing you Grandfather dying from cancer. You hate to lose him but the doctors are not doing much to save him. I hate to see him suffer and remember him as he was not as he is.

But he IS alive and fighting to stay that way, is he not?

The bottom line is I just don't see GM having the money to fix Pontiac right and the damage they will do will make it impossible to save them later. That is if there is a later.

Depends on how the market swings... This COULD be an opportunity for Pontiac to re-birth itself for a new generation of buyers.

We can debate models here all we want to save the company. But the problem is we are not GM and they are not getting it done. Also We don't have to pay for it. I think that is what is holding things up is there just is not not enough money for divisions like Pontiac that are now just a small part of the big picture.

A small part of the picture?!?! 2nd best selling GM division.

I think the time is coming that most if not all models will have to be sold world wide in some form or it will not be sold at all.

Ah yes, the homogeny continues.

[Camino LS6]

GM has the tools at its disposal to build a much more pure and competitive Pontiac division. Little to no investment is needed.

GM, if they phase out another division, will just be giving in to defeat and giving the import humpers in the industry and media what they want; an ever diminishing domestic auto industry.

The bolded part goes directly to my point, and the second part is the result I expect from brand killing.

I think the major failing within GM on this is a failure to define the brands and to see BPG as a single entity. Models are developed and placed in a brand lineup in a terribly illogical fashion. GM needs to get lean and focused, but not through political game playing between its factions ( which should not exist in the first place), nor by killing brands.

Not only is GM unfocused in the way it brands its products, but it also seems incapable of balancing product within and between sales channels. Unless it can get that part right, the number of brands makes little difference.

Some basic ideas I think are overdue:

- no product should go to any brand when that product is not a good fit (to hell with the pissing and moaning of the dealers).

- The number of architectures needs to be limited drastically

- The number of variants (real bodystyles not badge jobs) needs to be maximized for each architecture.

- A given brand's design language needs to be instantly recognizable. Not only for what it is, but for what it means.

[Camino LS6]

This thread makes good reading:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...mp;#entry436846

[gm4life]

Camino I agree with you on all of this. I watched many Olds customers go to Toyota/Lexus many a second gen Aurora sits used on a the Lexus lot 60 miles south of me. If Pontiac was killed even if the brand is slightly diluted customers would not go to Chevrolet or Saturn for sure, they would folk to Dodge or Nissan/Infiniti.

Edited October 15, 2008 by gm4life

[SAmadei]

Camino I agree with you on all of this. I watched many Olds customers go to Toyota/Lexus many a second gen Aurora sits used on a the Lexus lot 60 miles south of me. If Pontiac was killed even if the brand is slightly diluted customers would not go to Chevrolet or Saturn for sure, they would folk to Dodge or Nissan/Infiniti.

Pontiac drivers seem to go to Nissan, IMHO.

Years ago, I used to note that the only people who would blast by me on the freeway where Nissan Maximas, Pontiac Bonnevilles and BMWs. I assumed they must be cut from some of the same cloth... maniacs. ;-)

Every secondhand Bonneville (including the one I own) and GTO I look at I seem to find on Nissan dealer's lots as trade-ins. I imagine that adds up to a lot of new Maximas and G37s.

It's ridiculous that I have to go to a Nissan dealership to get a good Pontiac. Ugh.

[gm4life]

Yup I have noticed that too. Also Bonneville drivers, Maxima drivers, BMW drivers, and CTS/STS driver along with DTS drivers (in the upper trim now) do that too. *I have noticed similar things, that is the cloth I am cut from.*

[Diehard GrandPrix Fan]

I really miss Bonnevilles. Maybe I'm the only one, but to me, it's really a great car to be made in North America. When I went to the dealer for the 6,000 mile service for my Grand Prix, I saw a couple of last generation Bonnevilles parked in front for a service as well. I peeked inside and fell in love. I know they were the customer's cars, I kept thinking that why it had to die, oh, just why.......

It is really a great car well deserving to take place as Pontiac's flagship model. Shame they had to kill it. G8 to me, in my opinion, since it's an overseas import, does not have the right to take Pontiac's flagship status. I know, I am the only one, since EVERYONE of you have the lust for this stupid looking Aussie stuff.

I still love my 08 Grand Prix, but in about 10 years, if they bring back the Bonniville, only if it is not some stupid Aussie made rebadged trash as a Bonniville then, I may return to GM.

I really miss the Bonniville to be displayed in the showroom. I am not sure if that day will come or not, but....

Edited October 24, 2008 by Diehard GrandPrix Fan

[Chicagoland]

Well, with whats going on nowadays, looks like we wont see Bonnevilles or GP's anymore.

[dwightlooi]

The way I see it, having as many brands as GM does incurs higher than desired operating costs and a dilution of very finite marketing resources. This may have been justifiable if each brand is highly focused on a specific market segment with little or no overlap between them, but this clearly isn't the case with GM.

Think about it for a second. GM builds a Cobalt, a G5 and an Astra; Toyota builds ONE Corolla. GM builds a Malibu, a G6 and an Aura; Honda builds ONE Accord. GM builds a Tahoe, a Yukon and an Enclave; Nissan builds ONE Armada. In every case, even though the vehicles may share a platform, you have three sets of sheet metal, three sets of interior trims, three bouts of stlying efforts and three rounds of testing. This expends more R&D resources, encumbers the supply chain and does nothing to improve final vehicular technology or quality. Finally, when the models are out you have to either spend three times as much to promote each model or you have to dilute the same budget over the three. We frequently talk about legacy UAW benefit costs shackling GM compared to say Toyota's operations in a right-to-work state. This is true. But a lot of GM's higher operating overheads also comes from brand proliferation, engineering prismatification and marketing diversification.

This, as I have said, would have been justifiable if each brand targets a very specific market segment, but they don't. The same shopper who is looking for a Yukon, is also the same dude who is looking at the Envoy or Enclave. The same can be said of the Cobalt, G5 and Astra.

I think GM can really benefit from REALLY focusing the brands and perhaps getting rid of some of them. Each brand does NOT have to be a full spectrum vehicular marque, as long as GM as a whole is a full spectrum purveyor. If it's me this is how I'll do it:-

(1) Chevy -- FWD, main stream, sedans and coupes: Aveo, Cobalt (Cruze), Malibu, Impala and Volt.

(2) Pontiac -- RWD, performance, sedans and coupes: Solstice, G6 (RWD-Alpha based), G8 and GTO (The 2009 Camaro can be a GTO instead)

(3) GMC -- Trucks, SUVs, Crossovers: Envoy, Yukon, Traverse, HHR, Sierra, other trucks, SUVs, VANs and commercial vehicles.

(4) Cadillac -- Every thing luxury: current Cadillac lineup plus perhaps a few FWD Buick plush mobiles.

(5) Chevy Corvette -- separate division dedicated to high performance coupes and supercars.

Saturn, Saab: CANNED

Opel: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in Europe

Buick: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in China

Holden: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in Aussieland

And, while we can Saturn, we should turn EVERY dealership under the GM umbrella into a Saturn style dealership -- No pressure, one price, maximum transparency, minimum selling.

Edited November 9, 2008 by dwightlooi

[hyperv6]

The way I see it, having as many brands as GM does incurs higher than desired operating costs and a dilution of very finite marketing resources. This may have been justifiable if each brand is highly focused on a specific market segment with little or no overlap between them, but this clearly isn't the case with GM.

Think about it for a second. GM builds a Cobalt, a G5 and an Astra; Toyota builds ONE Corolla. GM builds a Malibu, a G6 and an Aura; Honda builds ONE Accord. GM builds a Tahoe, a Yukon and an Enclave; Nissan builds ONE Armada. In every case, even though the vehicles may share a platform, you have three sets of sheet metal, three sets of interior trims, three bouts of stlying efforts and three rounds of testing. This expends more R&D resources, encumbers the supply chain and does nothing to improve final vehicular technology or quality. Finally, when the models are out you have to either spend three times as much to promote each model or you have to dilute the same budget over the three. We frequently talk about legacy UAW benefit costs shackling GM compared to say Toyota's operations in a right-to-work state. This is true. But a lot of GM's higher operating overheads also comes from brand proliferation, engineering prismatification and marketing diversification.

This, as I have said, would have been justifiable if each brand targets a very specific market segment, but they don't. The same shopper who is looking for a Yukon, is also the same dude who is looking at the Envoy or Enclave. The same can be said of the Cobalt, G5 and Astra.

I think GM can really benefit from REALLY focusing the brands and perhaps getting rid of some of them. Each brand does NOT have to be a full spectrum vehicular marque, as long as GM as a whole is a full spectrum purveyor. If it's me this is how I'll do it:-

(1) Chevy -- FWD, main stream, sedans and coupes: Aveo, Cobalt (Cruze), Malibu, Impala and Volt.

(2) Pontiac -- RWD, performance, sedans and coupes: Solstice, G6 (RWD-Alpha based), G8 and GTO (The 2009 Camaro can be a GTO instead)

(3) GMC -- Trucks, SUVs, Crossovers: Envoy, Yukon, Traverse, HHR, Sierra, other trucks, SUVs, VANs and commercial vehicles.

(4) Cadillac -- Every thing luxury: current Cadillac lineup plus perhaps a few FWD Buick plush mobiles.

(5) Chevy Corvette -- separate division dedicated to high performance coupes and supercars.

Saturn, Saab: CANNED

Opel: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in Europe

Buick: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in China

Holden: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in Aussieland

And, while we can Saturn, we should turn EVERY dealership under the GM umbrella into a Saturn style dealership -- No pressure, one price, maximum transparency, minimum selling.

Nice plan but they will pay for all of this with?????

I see often a lot of realignmenmts of GM proposed but even with the limited goverment bail out realignment is not going to work.

GM is going to have to trim down and get lean and mean. They will have to concentrait on the core divisions that are making money. I have seen Goodyear do this in the last 5-8 years. They do not own the belt and hose division, they do not make a lot of other rubber base products. Their headquarters is a shadow of it's self right now but they are beating Wallstreets expectations unlike the other tire companies by concetraiting on their core line of tires.

We are far beyond just saving Pontiac right now it is more about saving GM. They need to work with core car models that can be sold world wide. Developing cars for each market is a thing of the past and right now it is a requirement for a struggling company.

[Camino LS6]

The way I see it, having as many brands as GM does incurs higher than desired operating costs and a dilution of very finite marketing resources. This may have been justifiable if each brand is highly focused on a specific market segment with little or no overlap between them, but this clearly isn't the case with GM.

Think about it for a second. GM builds a Cobalt, a G5 and an Astra; Toyota builds ONE Corolla. GM builds a Malibu, a G6 and an Aura; Honda builds ONE Accord. GM builds a Tahoe, a Yukon and an Enclave; Nissan builds ONE Armada. In every case, even though the vehicles may share a platform, you have three sets of sheet metal, three sets of interior trims, three bouts of stlying efforts and three rounds of testing. This expends more R&D resources, encumbers the supply chain and does nothing to improve final vehicular technology or quality. Finally, when the models are out you have to either spend three times as much to promote each model or you have to dilute the same budget over the three. We frequently talk about legacy UAW benefit costs shackling GM compared to say Toyota's operations in a right-to-work state. This is true. But a lot of GM's higher operating overheads also comes from brand proliferation, engineering prismatification and marketing diversification.

This, as I have said, would have been justifiable if each brand targets a very specific market segment, but they don't. The same shopper who is looking for a Yukon, is also the same dude who is looking at the Envoy or Enclave. The same can be said of the Cobalt, G5 and Astra.

I think GM can really benefit from REALLY focusing the brands and perhaps getting rid of some of them. Each brand does NOT have to be a full spectrum vehicular marque, as long as GM as a whole is a full spectrum purveyor. If it's me this is how I'll do it:-

(1) Chevy -- FWD, main stream, sedans and coupes: Aveo, Cobalt (Cruze), Malibu, Impala and Volt.

(2) Pontiac -- RWD, performance, sedans and coupes: Solstice, G6 (RWD-Alpha based), G8 and GTO (The 2009 Camaro can be a GTO instead)

(3) GMC -- Trucks, SUVs, Crossovers: Envoy, Yukon, Traverse, HHR, Sierra, other trucks, SUVs, VANs and commercial vehicles.

(4) Cadillac -- Every thing luxury: current Cadillac lineup plus perhaps a few FWD Buick plush mobiles.

(5) Chevy Corvette -- separate division dedicated to high performance coupes and supercars.

Saturn, Saab: CANNED

Opel: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in Europe

Buick: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in China

Holden: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in Aussieland

And, while we can Saturn, we should turn EVERY dealership under the GM umbrella into a Saturn style dealership -- No pressure, one price, maximum transparency, minimum selling.

I would advocate a very similar approach to this.

One major addition would be to maximize the usage of each architecture through the use of multiple bodystyles rather than multiple badge jobs. If done this way, three advantages are inherent: 1) the cost of the architecture is spread over the same number (or more) models making it cost-efficient. 2) Brand identity is enhanced and focused either by a single brand having the entire"family' of cars from a given architecture, or by having only the bodystyle variant most appropriate for the brand in question. 3) Badge-engineered cars within any given market disappear lessening competition between GM's brands while enhancing the reputation of each brand in the press, and ultimately in public perception of the brands.

Why they haven't been doing this for years perplexes me.

[gm4life]

The way I see it, having as many brands as GM does incurs higher than desired operating costs and a dilution of very finite marketing resources. This may have been justifiable if each brand is highly focused on a specific market segment with little or no overlap between them, but this clearly isn't the case with GM.

Think about it for a second. GM builds a Cobalt, a G5 and an Astra; Toyota builds ONE Corolla. GM builds a Malibu, a G6 and an Aura; Honda builds ONE Accord. GM builds a Tahoe, a Yukon and an Enclave; Nissan builds ONE Armada. In every case, even though the vehicles may share a platform, you have three sets of sheet metal, three sets of interior trims, three bouts of stlying efforts and three rounds of testing. This expends more R&D resources, encumbers the supply chain and does nothing to improve final vehicular technology or quality. Finally, when the models are out you have to either spend three times as much to promote each model or you have to dilute the same budget over the three. We frequently talk about legacy UAW benefit costs shackling GM compared to say Toyota's operations in a right-to-work state. This is true. But a lot of GM's higher operating overheads also comes from brand proliferation, engineering prismatification and marketing diversification.

This, as I have said, would have been justifiable if each brand targets a very specific market segment, but they don't. The same shopper who is looking for a Yukon, is also the same dude who is looking at the Envoy or Enclave. The same can be said of the Cobalt, G5 and Astra.

I think GM can really benefit from REALLY focusing the brands and perhaps getting rid of some of them. Each brand does NOT have to be a full spectrum vehicular marque, as long as GM as a whole is a full spectrum purveyor. If it's me this is how I'll do it:-

(1) Chevy -- FWD, main stream, sedans and coupes: Aveo, Cobalt (Cruze), Malibu, Impala and Volt.

(2) Pontiac -- RWD, performance, sedans and coupes: Solstice, G6 (RWD-Alpha based), G8 and GTO (The 2009 Camaro can be a GTO instead)

(3) GMC -- Trucks, SUVs, Crossovers: Envoy, Yukon, Traverse, HHR, Sierra, other trucks, SUVs, VANs and commercial vehicles.

(4) Cadillac -- Every thing luxury: current Cadillac lineup plus perhaps a few FWD Buick plush mobiles.

(5) Chevy Corvette -- separate division dedicated to high performance coupes and supercars.

Saturn, Saab: CANNED

Opel: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in Europe

Buick: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in China

Holden: Sells Chevys and Pontiacs in Aussieland

And, while we can Saturn, we should turn EVERY dealership under the GM umbrella into a Saturn style dealership -- No pressure, one price, maximum transparency, minimum selling.

I like these ideas.