Duh: Cadillac shelves that whole V12 thing

[Oracle of Delphi]

Posted Aug 21st 2008 3:29PM by Jeremy Korzeniewski

Filed under: Concept Cars, Sedans/Saloons, I.C.E., Cadillac

750-hp 7.5-liter V12 from the Cadillac Cien concept

Here's a shocker: Cadillac has reportedly canceled plans for a range-topping V12 engine. Really, you don't say? Last we checked, General Motors didn't seem to have any problems extracting plenty of performance from its 6.2-liter supercharged and 7.0-liter naturally aspirated V8 engines, and the majority of the development work has already been done for a Caddy installation. Additionally, we've heard some rumors of a possible twin-turbo version of GM's excellent 3.6-liter direct injection six, which could find a cozy spot under the hood of the next Cadillac sedan.

Cadillac is also said to be reconsidering its premium large sedan, where the V12 was originally intended to reside. In its stead, GM's classiest division will focus in on the replacement for the STS and DTS sedans. Also rumored is a new naming convention, as if the waters weren't already murky enough. Will the next Caddy sedan be known as the DT7? We sure hope not. Will it be based on the new Zeta platform? Well now... that decision would get our seal of approval.

Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/21/duh-cad...hole-v12-thing/

[loki]

damn, and i was saving up my monies.

[ZL-1]

New 740: forced induction 6-cyl;

New 750: forced induction V8.

Even BMW aka 'the benchmark' is downsizing

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So there are 2 Zetas at Cadillac?

The ULS (Which I thought had been shelved LONG ago) and the DTS/STS replacement?

Yeah... We don't really need a V12 right now. But it is a shame that it didn't see the light of day because it would've given Cadillac an image boost on the technology and prestige scale.

I certainly hope the next naming scheme isn't the stupid DT7 that we've read about.

Edited August 23, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Northstar]

Cadillac should have a V12 if it ever wants to build a vehicle to compete directly with the 7er and S-Class, but right now that vehicle is probably an afterthought.

[Lamar]

Cadillac should have a V12 if it ever wants to build a vehicle to compete directly with the 7er and S-Class, but right now that vehicle is probably an afterthought.

I agree... and in limited qualities... and it doesn't necessarily need to be 7.5 liters (unless they went pushrod to cut weight ).

[wildcat]

Also rumored is a new naming convention

That would be very interesting; I can't imagine them walking away from "CTS," for example, nor can I see them returning to "Eldorado," to name but one.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That would be very interesting; I can't imagine them walking away from "CTS," for example, nor can I see them returning to "Eldorado," to name but one.

I wish they would bring back the Eldorado name. God how I love it.

[Satty]

The Eldorado has such a fantastic history, so many beautiful cars, that I cant believe they would drop it. I am happy they didn't use it on the XLR, because Eldorado should be used on something with a usable back seat.

[smk4565]

They don't need a V12 since they aren't going after Bentley any time soon, but they do need a new DOHC V8. A turbo or supercharged V8 is enough for under $125k cars. I thought the STS/DTS replacement was scrapped, I hope it isn't on Zeta, a Chevy/Pontiac/Holden platform that is heavy has no place at Cadillac. They need to develop one from scratch, I know it is costly, but they find money to rebadge lame SUVs, they can take it from there to make Cadillac legit. As for names, I don't care if they stick with STS/CTS style or go to Fleetwood/Eldorado, they sell cars mostly in English speaking countries anyway.

I just read about Mercedes' new engine lineup yesterday, they have a, 300+ hp diesel V6, 435 hp twin turbo V8 (replaces the 5.5 liter) and a twin turbo 5.5 liter V8 with 570 hp for AMG cars. Direct injection on gas engines, plus a hybrid S-class with lithium ion batteries. All this is coming in the next 2-3 years. BMW and Mercedes keep pushing the envelop, Lexus and Audi have a hard time keeping up, Cadillac seems too underfunded to get in a battle with those brands.

[Lamar]

They don't need a V12 since they aren't going after Bentley any time soon

Who said anything about Bentley? Lexus is the only other full-line (and I use that term loosely when mentioning Cadillac) luxury automaker that doesn't use a 12-cylinder engine at all.

[smk4565]

BMW dropped the V12, but they could always update it and bring it back. The M5 might go to a twin turbo V8, and Jaguar is V8 only as well. The V12 Mercedes are $125,000 or more. The DTS and STS base under $45k right now, the replacement (if they ever make it) will probably be $50k, a V6 and V8 are fine for that price class. GM puts pushrods in Cadillacs so clearly they don't care that much about engines, doing to a DOHC V12 would be quite a jump.

[aldw]

BMW dropped the V12, but they could always update it and bring it back. The M5 might go to a twin turbo V8, and Jaguar is V8 only as well. The V12 Mercedes are $125,000 or more. The DTS and STS base under $45k right now, the replacement (if they ever make it) will probably be $50k, a V6 and V8 are fine for that price class. GM puts pushrods in Cadillacs so clearly they don't care that much about engines, doing to a DOHC V12 would be quite a jump.

GM needs to match and beat the Germans in engine quality in all ways to make good headway, otherwise along with the loss of competitive models this just adds another deadweight to Cadillac.

Edited August 24, 2008 by aldw

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Maybe GM could use the pushrods to their advantage...

The motors are just as refined as the DOHC units (IMO)

Maybe GM could market them as "distinctly american" just like art & science and Cadillac as whole was/is supposed to be distinctly american.

[Intrepidation]

A shame perhaps, but considering what they can do with the small block V8 (ZR1 anybody?) They don't need a V12.

[smk4565]

Pushrods aren't as refined as DOHC, I have a DOHC V8, I wouldn't trade that on a pushrod ever. "Distinctly American" might be a turn off to many luxury buyers. The current perception is that German and Japanese cars are better than ours. To beat the Germans, they need to out-engineer them, recycling a pushrod from a Chevy pickup or Camaro isn't going to do anything, but further tarnish the image of Cadillac as just another struggling GM brand.

[Lamar]

Maybe GM could use the pushrods to their advantage...

The motors are just as refined as the DOHC units (IMO)

Maybe GM could market them as "distinctly american" just like art & science and Cadillac as whole was/is supposed to be distinctly american.

Agreed on all counts.

I never drove a GM pushrod (V6 or V8) that I didn't like.

[Robert Hall]

I wish they would bring back the Eldorado name. God how I love it.

I love that name...and Seville, and esp. Fleetwood for the big luxo boats..... deVille is certainly nicer than 'DTS', IMHO. DTS sounds like some software code to me..(since I work in the biz known for having zillions of TLAs).

[Robert Hall]

BMW dropped the V12, but they could always update it and bring it back. The M5 might go to a twin turbo V8, and Jaguar is V8 only as well. The V12 Mercedes are $125,000 or more. The DTS and STS base under $45k right now, the replacement (if they ever make it) will probably be $50k, a V6 and V8 are fine for that price class. GM puts pushrods in Cadillacs so clearly they don't care that much about engines, doing to a DOHC V12 would be quite a jump.

I'm surprised Jaguar never brought back a V12 for the top-of-the line XJ sedan....no money, I guess.. I hadn't heard anything about BMW dropping their V12..they still have the 760Li (and the next gen F01/F02 is supposed to get a 760Li in '10, with an 8-speed auto).

[balthazar]

Bet you dollar to donuts there are lots of consumers 'convinced' OHC is more 'refined' than IBC... gazing with heavy lust at the CTS-V, pushrods and all. 'Engineering' means little on the bottom line if you take a back seat to the competition where it counts and where it can readily be measured.

You are only 1 person with only 1 opinion, yet -based on your one-track posts here- you continually extrapolate that onto the entire car-buying world as if everyone agrees with you.

[smk4565]

The 09 7-series has no V12, but the 2010 model getting it back makes sense, it is supposed to be a twin turbo V12 I think as well.

I've driven plenty of pushrods that I didn't like, even most SOHC engines I find unrefined. BMW's inline 6 has better refinement than any GM engine, pushrods and the Northstar don't cut it, they need a new engine if they really want to compete, but I believe GM is happy with Cadillac being a $35-55k brand that shares parts with lower end models.

[smk4565]

Bet you dollar to donuts there are lots of consumers 'convinced' OHC is more 'refined' than IBC... gazing with heavy lust at the CTS-V, pushrods and all. 'Engineering' means little on the bottom line if you take a back seat to the competition where it counts and where it can readily be measured.

You are only 1 person with only 1 opinion, yet -based on your one-track posts here- you continually extrapolate that onto the entire car-buying world as if everyone agrees with you.

BMW and Mercedes are both heavy on engineering and they both sell over 1 million cars a year globally, Cadillac is lucky to push 250k. Cadillac is 4th place in their home market and sales are down this year. The current plan isn't working.

[Robert Hall]

What is interesting is that GM and Chrysler are the only automakers in the world, AFAIK, that still do pushrod engines. The LS and Hemi are the last pushrod engines, I think. Even Ford moved away from them. (unless there are some obscure pushrod 4s still built in RIC countries).

I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like carburators, BOF construction, etc artifacts of the past...

[balthazar]

>>"I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like carburators, BOF construction, etc artifacts of the past... "<<

Some may prefer to look at it like this:

>>I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like decent thickness sheetmetal, longevity, repairability, etc, artifacts of the past...<<

In other words- these things worked well but are no longer 'fashionable'.

[Robert Hall]

>>"I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like carburators, BOF construction, etc artifacts of the past... "<<

Some may prefer to look at it like this:

>>I'm afraid the reality is that pushrod engines are by and large, like decent thickness sheetmetal, longevity, repairability, etc, artifacts of the past...<<

The thing is about longevity, cars today tend to go longer than the did in the past...30-40 years ago a car was usually worn out at 100k miles...today's cars are generally much more reliable over the long run...

[SuperSport623]

i still say, look at the amazing refinement of the Gen IV..... why mess with success? just to be like everyone else? the smallblock formula has worked since 1955..... i say, dont mess with perfection... yes, PERFECTION

[balthazar]

>>"30-40 years ago a car was usually worn out at 100k miles..."<<

Nonsense.

[Robert Hall]

>>"30-40 years ago a car was usually worn out at 100k miles..."<<

Nonsense.

They certainly were in the Midwest...rust killed them even if the engines went on longer. People drive a lot more miles today per year, so the miles rack up faster.

Anyway, neither here nor there, the past is gone. Today's cars are better, safer, more efficient, more reliable than those from the past. What is going to be interesting is how cars are going to evolve in the next decade.

Edited August 25, 2008 by moltar

[balthazar]

>>"...the past is gone."<<

The future doesn't inspire much hope, either.

[Robert Hall]

>>"...the past is gone."<<

The future doesn't inspire much hope, either.

That's too negative... unfortunately, it is what it is...I can't go back and live when I was born in 1970...have to live for today and the future.

[Sixty8panther]

V12 are played out, everyone's had them from Jaguar to BMW...

I for one could give a f*** less about twelve cylinders, either go

BIG, (sixteen) or don't even waste the money to being with.

There will never be any exclusivity from a 12 cylinder when page

4 iof the owner's manual has a photo of a '31 Cadillac phaeton w/

a 452 (ohv) V16, where's the BEEF?

GM: Either stop being pu%$ies, step up to a V16, or stick to V8s.

[Sixty8panther]

Moltar:

HOw can you hate on the pushrod V8 with today's LS-series motors?

[Robert Hall]

There will never be any exclusivity from a 12 cylinder when page

4 iof the owner's manual has a photo of a '31 Cadillac phaeton w/

a 452 (ohv) V16, where's the BEEF?

??? How is something from 77 years ago remotely relevant in 2008???? You have to stop the dreaming and wake up to reality...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think GM has something up it's sleeve for Cadillac with the next generation of LS motors.

In todays market, developing 2 V8s is like developing 2 large RWD platforms: POINTLESS. So hopefully, like Sigma or Alpha might replace Zeta, the LS might replace the UV8.

Or maybe the UV8 technology could be adapted to certain "premium" versions of the new LS motors.

It's just a shame that GM spent all this development money on what appears to be amazing engineering on all levels only to get no ROI.

Edited August 25, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Robert Hall]

Moltar:

HOw can you hate on the pushrod V8 with today's LS-series motors?

Never said I hated them...it's just the market has moved on....OHC is a necessity for premium cars in the market, perception or not..

[Lamar]

What is interesting is that GM and Chrysler are the only automakers in the world, AFAIK, that still do pushrod engines.

Bentley.

[Lamar]

Never said I hated them...it's just the market has moved on....OHC is a necessity for premium cars in the market, perception or not..

I can guarantee you that much of this "market" wouldn't know the difference.

[Sixty8panther]

Moltar:

I think Lamar proved my point pretty well... unless you consider

Bentleys to be a sub-par luxury cars as compared to a '08 DTS.

At any rate, the Corvette Zo6 & ZR1 have, undoubtedly put the

DOHC>OHV agrument to sleep, how many times does the Vette

have to win LeMans against a V12 DOHC Ferrari for the DOHC

humpers to STFU? (with all due respect!)

DOHC was cool in 1929 when it made the Dusenberg special, &

as you yourself said that era is long gone.

----

Now speaking of the V16, I will fight to the death that a small

displacement V16 could, ney - SHOULD be a part of Cadillac's

weapons' arsenal in the next decade.

Like I've said time & time again, think two modern BOP 215s...

or, even smaller would be fine. PUSHROD? YES, for simplicity,

esp. on such a smal scale.

How sick would it be to see an engine the size of a BMW slant

six but with SIXTEEN cylinders, displacing 5 or 6 liters.

Ohhh-yeah!!!

[balthazar]

>>"...OHC is a necessity for premium cars in the market, perception or not..."<<

But that's just it; the "necessity" is only a perception.

[smk4565]

A V16 is dumb, too big, too long under the hood. V12 has a place in Ferrari/Lambo or Rolls Royce type cars, but Cadillac won't ever be in that range of cars. The engine they need as an all new DOHC V8, with twin turbo option and in a couple sizes, perhaps a 4.0 liter, and a 5.0 liter. Even Hyundai has a new V8, and they have a 5.0 liter version of the Tau V8 with 420 hp coming soon. (Cadillac can't keep up with Hyundai?) The LS motors will never make it in the luxury market (they are from pickups and Camaros of 10 years ago), they don't have the refinement, or 100 hp per liter ability (without a massive supercharger like the ZR-1) like the Euro engines do.

[balthazar]

>> A V-16 is only 2 cylinders longer than an I-6. When you look at it that way; an I-6 is "dumb" when it could be half as long as a V-6, right?

>>"Even Hyundai has a new V8, and they have a 5.0 liter version of the Tau V8 with 420 hp coming soon. (Cadillac can't keep up with Hyundai?)"

Cadillac gets 469 HP from 4.4 L, hyundai is far behind Cadillac in a numbers race here. Yes, I realize thats SC'd and No, I don't care if hyundai can't afford to offer one, too. Power is power- Cadillac offers 50 more HP from half a liter less displacement. Done.

>>"The LS motors will never make it in the luxury market (they are from pickups and Camaros of 10 years ago)"

LS Gen IV is only 4 years old, not 10.

And the 'coming soon' tau V-8 is from hyundai of the accent fame.

>>...or 100 hp per liter ability"

First off, the only way to tell any car's displacement is to read the badge. How else do you know- not by looking underhood certainly. Not by driving it. Who cares ??

But let me educate you:

"At the 2006 SEMA show, GM Performance Parts introduced the LSX engine, an all-new cast-iron racing block based on the LS7 engine. It was designed with help from drag racing legend Warren Johnson. It offers displacements ranging from 364 cubic inches to 511 cubic inches (4.25" Bore x 4.5" Stroke) and is capable of withstanding 2500 bhp. This block incorporates two extra rows of head-bolt holes per bank for increased clamping capacity. The six bolt steel main caps are the same ones used on the LS7 engine. The LSX will be available starting the second quarter of 2007, set to be available in authorized dealerships and retailers on March 31, 2007."

Ooops, there it is!

511 CI (8.3L) / 2500 HP = 301 HP / L

Yes, I know this is a General Motors-developed race motor, but you said the LS did not have the ability to support 100hp/L and No, I don't care if it's not offered in a street car yet.

Even this press release didn't bother with outmoded fan-boy HP/L stats.

[smk4565]

An I-6 is a really smooth engine

Cadillac's supercharged northstar gets terrible mileage. The Tau V8 gets 17/25 mpg and they are targeting the same figures for the 5 liter version with 400-420 hp. Plus a super or turbo charged version with over 500 hp may follow. If they can make a new V8 from scratch, Cadillac should be able to also. They shouldn't have to take an engine from Chevy for their cars.

[Sixty8panther]

A V16 is dumb,

Even Hyundai has a new V8, and they have a 5.0 liter version of the Tau V8 with 420 hp coming soon. (Cadillac can't keep up with Hyundai?)

Who sounds like a dumbass now?

All the more reason why a range topping V16 is the

only way Cadillac will ever fully reclaim its status as

"standard of the world..."

oh, and good job reading my post, a ohv 5 liter V16

would NOT be much bigger than a 5.0 litr twin turbo

DOHC V8! You sir,sound like a pie faced simpleton.

[Sixty8panther]

An I-6 is a really smooth engine

Cadillac's supercharged northstar gets terrible mileage. The Tau V8 gets 17/25 mpg and they are targeting the same figures for the 5 liter version with 400-420 hp. Plus a super or turbo charged version with over 500 hp may follow. If they can make a new V8 from scratch, Cadillac should be able to also. They shouldn't have to take an engine from Chevy for their cars.

Guess how many people spend $70,000 on

an STS-V & care about mpg!? Guess...?

My guess is less than 2%

[Sixty8panther]

An I-6 is a really smooth engine

Agreed, it's far superior to most V6s... and I-8s

are smoother still, now splice TWo I-8s to make

V16 & you have "internal combustion heaven",

and that is the definition of Cadillac luxury... not

a fwd DTS w. dohc V8 power, take II.

[Lamar]

Agreed, it's far superior to most V6s... and I-8s

are smoother still, now splice TWo I-8s to make

V16 & you have "internal combustion heaven",

and that is the definition of Cadillac luxury... not

a fwd DTS w. dohc V8 power, take II.

If they were ever to make a V16, I (personally) would prefer that it be a V-Series only engine. Not everyone deserves the gift that is engine size.

[nferr]

Caddy doesn't even have a competing V8 (the Northstar is outdated) and people think they're going to consider a V16 in this marketplace? they would be lucky to sell 500 a year. I could just see the typical Caddy customer asking what a tuneup costs on the V16 - or typical repair costs. They shelved the new DOHC V8, never mind development cost of a V16. It's dreamworld.

[Drew Dowdell]

BMW dropped the V12, but they could always update it and bring it back. The M5 might go to a twin turbo V8, and Jaguar is V8 only as well. The V12 Mercedes are $125,000 or more. The DTS and STS base under $45k right now, the replacement (if they ever make it) will probably be $50k, a V6 and V8 are fine for that price class. GM puts pushrods in Cadillacs so clearly they don't care that much about engines, doing to a DOHC V12 would be quite a jump.

For once I kinda agree with you. The LS is fine for the V-series, but for something STS/DTS/ULS level they need a modern, clean sheet, northstar replacement.

[Robert Hall]

Caddy doesn't even have a competing V8 (the Northstar is outdated) and people think they're going to consider a V16 in this marketplace? they would be lucky to sell 500 a year. I could just see the typical Caddy customer asking what a tuneup costs on the V16 - or typical repair costs. They shelved the new DOHC V8, never mind development cost of a V16. It's dreamworld.

Yes, lots of delusional folks around here, I think you will find.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think GM has something up it's sleeve for Cadillac with the next generation of LS motors.

In todays market, developing 2 V8s is like developing 2 large RWD platforms: POINTLESS. So hopefully, like Sigma or Alpha might replace Zeta, the LS might replace the UV8.

Or maybe the UV8 technology could be adapted to certain "premium" versions of the new LS motors.

It's just a shame that GM spent all this development money on what appears to be amazing engineering on all levels only to get no ROI.

There's always been talk of the 3-valve VVT and DI being introduced to the line.