The Vauxhall debate

[thegriffon]

You local Isuzu or Vauxhall dealer can stock what they like, and they are the best choice to provide support, but it does not make them an "official" import with factory support.

[Guest aatbloke]

I'm not going to divulge my proprietary data just to win an argument with a self-important fool who isn't going to change his mind anyway.

More name-calling from people who I never think for a minute will divulge their "proprietary data" - that seems to be a pattern on here.

I have documentary evidence to back up my assessments, what have you got—rumors in the press, speculation, expectations of reclusive idiots who hadn't even noticed that Nubira was already being dropped in favor of Lacetti? So what if you read it in magazine and newspaper again and again? Don't you know not to believe anything just because it's in print? I laugh at almost every attempt by the media to pin a name on a new model, because almost every time they get it wrong. This is what I am paid to do, and my information is invariably better than what you will ever read in the press.

I don't just obtain my information from the press and/or press releases - I obtain it from industry sources such as contacts at MIRA. If I think the source is credible, I'll use it.

The UK, Poland, Russia, Greece and ROI were some of the European markets which dropped the Nubira nameplate in favour of Lacetti saloon and SW shortly before the Daewoo branding changed to Chevrolet. The Nubira nameplate remained under the Chevrolet moniker in other European markets such as Germany, France, Spain, Norway, Italy, Portugal, Sweden and Finland to this day.

Edited August 17, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

You local Isuzu or Vauxhall dealer can stock what they like, and they are the best choice to provide support, but it does not make them an "official" import with factory support.

Actually, no they cannot - in this country, authorised dealerships cannot sell new vehicles for UK consumption without full manufacturer support. That's why we have so many independents specialsing in grey-market Japanese imports.

A very few LHD cars are in Australia, but grey-market American cars are usually converted to RHD before being sold here. These are usually new vehicles, with Australian compliance plates, not imports of questionable used cars. At the same time there is no factory warranty and no support from either GM and Isuzu. Your Chevy LUVS and Colorados would not have either. It would be up to the grey-market importer to provide warranty and support, for whatever that is worth, and UK and European certification (which by the way seems incredibly lax for these entrepreneurial importers). I would not call these "official" imports. They are termed grey-market because they are not illegal, non-compliant vehicles (black-market), but they have no factory support and are not officially imported by the manufacturer or licensed distributor.

I said: "LHD cars are illegal for use by the general public on public roads." This doesn't stop people from importing them or owning them, it's illegal for them to drive such cars on a public carriageway. This does not extend to manufacturers running prototypes. The Ford Mustang is a popular RHD conversion in Australia, for example, as I am sure you're aware. These conversions are carried out by independent companies of vehicles personally imported by private individuals or companies specialising in the cars themselves. They are not official imports.

In the UK, a grey-market vehicle is one which was not originally built to EU or UK standards, even though the vehicle itself may be substantially similar to an official product - the Toyota Model-F was a classic example. Whether the car is RHD or LHD doesn't matter. Vehicles are converted to meet various requirements through a process called SVA, or EU vehicle type-approval, which runs through many aspects from emissions equipment to lighting to glass to door hinges to seat belt mountings. Apart from a few vehicles from the United States and Japan, almost all grey-market vehicles are used cars, and the vast majority of those are former Japanese-specced vehicles in RHD which are shipped from Japan after three years of age because of the punitive MoT-style system in place there. Many European LHD models also end up in the UK's grey-import market by people with holiday homes in the Iberian peninsula.

In the case of the Chevrolet LUV, the Isuzu Rodeo is already sold officially via dealers, and the Chevrolet version is exactly the same vehicle built to the same specifications. Those sold get full dealer and factory support. You'll see them in both Isuzu and some Vauxhall outlets.

I know what a grey-market vehicle is, Grffon. The next time you're in the UK, you might want to sample a few such dealers here.

Edited August 17, 2008 by aatbloke

[thegriffon]

I never gave a timeline for the founding of General Motors UK Ltd. Vauxhall was renamed General Motors UK Ltd earlier this year. Fact. That is easily verifiable with the appropriate authority, and I can assure Aatbloke that I did so before posting. I don't know what he is thinking of.

New dealers in your country can and do sell new vehicles without the support of their main franchisor. Vauxhall has in fact sometimes been kind enough to publicize the odd vehicle sold by a dealer, if it is based on one of their models, without actually providing warranty or support themselves. Any "Factory" support is provided by the dealer or their supplier, not the original manufacturer. A Chevrolet imported by a third party and sold by an Isuzu or Vauxhall dealer does not have nor does it require factory support by General Motors UK, Isuzu, nor Chevrolet UK, but by the third party importing them from Latin America or Thailand. Neither GM nor Isuzu is going to provide factory support for vehicles they do not sell themselves through their own dealers (and that means Chevrolets through Chevrolet dealers and advertised by Chevrolet UK), no matter what another dealer may imply. As I have said time and again, a vehicle imported and marketed by GM is what I consider official, not some enterprising third-party import with perhaps suspect type approval (the latter opinion is based in the sometimes gross discrepancy between what the original manufacturer considers EU capable, and what entrepreneurial importers claim is EU certified). You seem to mean something entirely different by "officially imported", so why argue about it?

I have had and continue to have dealings with various European automotive media, and I respect their ability to get insider information. But their sources and analysis are not always correct, especially when it comes to vehicle names. Those working on a program, especially at suppliers, who leak like sieves, are the last people to know what a vehicle will be called. Code names, nick-names, familiar old names like Nubira, random trademark filings, all are gist for the rumor mill. I have the experience and expertise, and the background work to support my assessments. Automotive journalists simply do not have the time or the desire to do as thorough a job. Some with more integrity rely on me to find better information. A name, any name will do to flesh out an article. It doesn't have to be the right name. After all that could change before the vehicle debuts, and sometimes after. That it has already changed or was never right when it was published in a vehicle forecast article is all too common. I am perfectly willing to give kudos when they get it right (I could only confirm Passat CC after spy photos were published under that name).

[thegriffon]

You said that you agreed with PCS, in saying Vauxhall no longer existed as a company.

GM (UK) Ltd is a holding company of Opel Ireland Ltd, Saab GB Ltd and it owns 41% of Chevrolet (UK) Ltd. It is essentially a tax vehicle, and deals with all of the PR for those companies as well as Vauxhall Motors Ltd. It was created to consolidate these activities for each of these companies after Daewoo's branding became Chevrolet in Europe. It was a cost centre or business unit for a year or so before it formally became a corporation registered in England & Wales in its own right.

What you must be referring to is that the two companies later exchanged registration numbers: Vauxhall Motors Ltd took that of GM (UK) Ltd and vice-versa. Exactly why this was done is unknown to me, although it isn't an unknown event as far as corporate restructuring is concerned and Vauxhall's company registration had the pre-requisite activity as holding company within its existing Memorandum of Association, not to mention GMM Luton Ltd as an existing subsidiary which would have been the simplest and most cost-effective way to consolidate the group for accounting purposes within the prevailing Companies Act, as well as tax purposes. GM (UK) Ltd is strictly a holding company, and itself not a manufacturing company, whereas Vauxhall Motors Ltd is.

Just a month ago Vauxhall Motors Ltd underwent changes to its board of directors when Bill Parfitt was promoted from MD to Chairman.

GM (UK) Ltd uses the same registered office as Vauxhall Motors Ltd and GMM Luton Ltd. This is not unusual in the UK, as there's no limit to the number of companies sharing a registered office.

Companies do not "exchange registration numbers" as you put it. They may "exchange names", for various reasons; common during acquisitions, mergers or bankruptcy to preserve the fiction of continuity. This happened to the original companies that formed the Rover group. They exchanged names with purely administrative entities in the group (property companies and the like) around the time of the BMW acquisition and were later deregistered (the functions and assets of all the companies involved having been transferred to the parent company long beforehand). The surviving Wolseley Motors etc. are the mere namesakes of the historic manufacturers, and were founded much later. I have to assume the new management had no idea of the heritage value of the disguised companies. The former Vauxhall Motors Ltd. has been renamed General Motors UK Ltd.. The company's assets and intellectual property have not been swapped—what was owned by Vauxhall Motors remains the property of company under the new name of General Motors UK Ltd.. Legally General Motors UK Ltd. is the company formerly known as Vauxhall Motors Ltd.. As for the other companies you mention I can give more info once the office re-opens. in a few hours. It is possible that a former GM UK was merged with Vauxhall Motors, the latter then assuming the name of the former holding company.

[thegriffon]

Companies do not "exchange registration numbers" as you put it. They may "exchange names", for various reasons; common during acquisitions, mergers or bankruptcy to preserve the fiction of continuity. This happened to the original companies that formed the Rover group. They exchanged names with purely administrative entities in the group (property companies and the like) around the time of the BMW acquisition and were later deregistered (the functions and assets of all the companies involved having been transferred to the parent company long beforehand). The surviving Wolseley Motors etc. are the mere namesakes of the historic manufacturers, and were founded much later. I have to assume the new management had no idea of the heritage value of the disguised companies. The former Vauxhall Motors Ltd. has been renamed General Motors UK Ltd.. The company's assets and intellectual property have not been swapped—what was owned by Vauxhall Motors remains the property of company under the new name of General Motors UK Ltd.. Legally General Motors UK Ltd. is the company formerly known as Vauxhall Motors Ltd.. As for the other companies you mention I can give more info once the office re-opens. in a few hours. It is possible that a former GM UK was merged with Vauxhall Motors, the latter then assuming the name of the former holding company.

Ok, so a new company founded in late 2007 as General Motors UK Ltd. has become the new Vauxhall Motors Ltd. It seems rather than transfer the intellectual and physical property of Vauxhall to GM UK, they just renamed the companies. GMM Luton does not exist, nor does it seem to have existed in the past under that name or any reasonable variation I can think of. The manufacturing subsidiary producing the Renaul/Nissan/GM vans was IBC Vehicles Ltd. (Isuzu Bedford Commercial), which still exists, although I believe the plant was transferred back to Vauxhall (now General Motors UK Ltd.)

[CARBIZ]

[97regalGS]

you're too late.