Hyundai Accent named Most Dependable Subcompact Car by J.D.

[Polish_Kris]

http://thecarblogger.blogspot.com/2008/08/...named-most.html

WOW! I cannot believe what I am reading!

[ocnblu]

That little Accent hatchback in the sportier trim level, is quite a solid, cute little cheek. I'll take mine with the factory B&M short shifter 5 speed manual with sunroof, in Apple Green.

[FAPTurbo]

Twenty years ago, heck even five years ago, who would've thunk it?

Good work Hyundai.

[Polish_Kris]

in Apple Green.

I prefer the red colour.

[siegen]

Sample size is approximately 0.6% of all new vehicles sold between November 2004 and April 2005. A fairly good size sample, but still leaves a fairly large margin for error. I don't disagree that the Accent is reliable, but who wants an Accent?

If I had one I would never have problems with it, because I'd never drive it.

Edited August 12, 2008 by siegen

[Polish_Kris]

Sample size is approximately 0.6% of all new vehicles sold between November 2004 and April 2005. A fairly good size sample, but still leaves a fairly large margin for error. I don't disagree that the Accent is reliable, but who wants an Accent?

If I had one I would never have problems with it, because I'd never drive it.

Here in Canada, the small car market is huge compared to the States, here small care ARE driven by their owners.

[CARBIZ]

Here in Canada, the small car market is huge compared to the States, here small care ARE driven by their owners.

Well, it's a good thing they are only $18k, since 90% of that money goes directly to Korea.

[Guest aatbloke]

Well, it's a good thing they are only $18k, since 90% of that money goes directly to Korea.

90%? How? Many manufacturing companies are doing extraordinarily well if they're achieving a 15-20% net profit percentage, and that's before corporation tax. And it's highly unlikely Hyundai would rape its North American subsidiaries completely of what's left via a huge dividend, since that leaves no room for future investment.

Even with major parts content supplied from Korea, it's extremely unlikely that 90% of the vehicle's list price ends up there.

Edited August 12, 2008 by aatbloke

[siegen]

Here in Canada, the small car market is huge compared to the States, here small care ARE driven by their owners.

I have no problem with small cars.

[CARBIZ]

90%? How? Many manufacturing companies are doing extraordinarily well if they're achieving a 15-20% net profit percentage, and that's before corporation tax. And it's highly unlikely Hyundai would rape its North American subsidiaries completely of what's left via a huge dividend, since that leaves no room for future investment.

Even with major parts content supplied from Korea, it's extremely unlikely that 90% of the vehicle's list price ends up there.

The 'margin' on a vehicle like the Accent is only about 7 %. Hyundai manufactures NOTHING in Canada and imports EVERYTHING. That means, other than paying the commission for the salesperson, and the overhead of the dealership, a couple parts warehouses and a small head office, all the money leaves this country.

At least Honda and Toyota have the courtesy to build a few vehicles here.

[Guest aatbloke]

The 'margin' on a vehicle like the Accent is only about 7 %. Hyundai manufactures NOTHING in Canada and imports EVERYTHING. That means, other than paying the commission for the salesperson, and the overhead of the dealership, a couple parts warehouses and a small head office, all the money leaves this country.

At least Honda and Toyota have the courtesy to build a few vehicles here.

If it's imported to your country that's a different matter. Incidentally, gross margin is usually significantly different from NPP, as it doesn't take account of stock movement or overhead. Like I said, any heavy manufacturing company, particularly in the car industry, is extremely fortunate if they see 15% NPP and up.

I don't think it's discourteous not to build in every market you sell cars in. Given the unit profit on small cars is often rather low, it pays only to build them in countries with favourable labour regulations and costs.

[A Horse With No Name]

If it's imported to your country that's a different matter. Incidentally, gross margin is usually significantly different from NPP, as it doesn't take account of stock movement or overhead. Like I said, any heavy manufacturing company, particularly in the car industry, is extremely fortunate if they see 15% NPP and up.

I don't think it's discourteous not to build in every market you sell cars in. Given the unit profit on small cars is often rather low, it pays only to build them in countries with favourable labour regulations and costs.

Thankfully, I can buy a Civic, which is a great car and built here in Ohio. Or if I go for the SI version, it's built in Canada.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Sample size is approximately 0.6% of all new vehicles sold between November 2004 and April 2005. A fairly good size sample, but still leaves a fairly large margin for error. I don't disagree that the Accent is reliable, but who wants an Accent?

If I had one I would never have problems with it, because I'd never drive it.

...it is still a lot sexier than that abomination you were showing us in the Acura thread.

But actually, given the choice between

1. Spending my money on a current Acura product

2. Spending my money on a current Hyundai product

Or

3. Being bitten by a large, angry rabid dog...

I would choose the dog. The pain would only last a few weeks, and rabies can be dealt with by a series of shots. Painfull, yes, but better than 60 months of payments on either.

Chris

[Polish_Kris]

Well, it's a good thing they are only $18k, since 90% of that money goes directly to Korea.

What difference does it make, when 90% of the money goes to Detroit, Mich. USA! not CANADA! When purchasing a GM in Canada.

[Cory Wolfe]

My friend has an '02 Accent. It takes a beating for being an incredibly cheaply made little thing.

[CARBIZ]

What difference does it make, when 90% of the money goes to Detroit, Mich. USA! not CANADA! When purchasing a GM in Canada.

Give yourself a shake.

At least Toyota and Honda pay lipservice to production facilities in Canada. Hyundai has nothing more than a few warehouses and some dealers in this country. GM, Ford and Chrysler have been contributing to the Canadian economy for almost 100 years. Or did you not know that GM is the largest 'Canadian' company on the Toronto Stock Exchange? Or the Beacon Project where GM has invested well over a billion dollars in Oshawa and environs. Or all the tie-ins GM has with Georgian College. Or the design center in Oshawa that designed and builds the Impala and Equinox.

Besides, Detroit is just across the river from Windsor. Maybe some of the execs or engineers in Michigan own summer homes in Ontario and contribute to the economy that way. Or look at all the Canadians who work in Michigan (including the governor, for Gawd's sake) for the Big 2.5.

Money and investment that circulate between the Big 2.5 and North America are a net benefit to all of us. What Japan Inc and Korea does is just window dressing to allow people like you to sleep at night with the notion that your Asian POS is not killing your neighbor's jobs.

What exactly does Korea do for Canada's economy? ZERO.

[Polish_Kris]

Give yourself a shake.

At least Toyota and Honda pay lipservice to production facilities in Canada. Hyundai has nothing more than a few warehouses and some dealers in this country. GM, Ford and Chrysler have been contributing to the Canadian economy for almost 100 years. Or did you not know that GM is the largest 'Canadian' company on the Toronto Stock Exchange? Or the Beacon Project where GM has invested well over a billion dollars in Oshawa and environs. Or all the tie-ins GM has with Georgian College. Or the design center in Oshawa that designed and builds the Impala and Equinox.

Besides, Detroit is just across the river from Windsor. Maybe some of the execs or engineers in Michigan own summer homes in Ontario and contribute to the economy that way. Or look at all the Canadians who work in Michigan (including the governor, for Gawd's sake) for the Big 2.5.

Money and investment that circulate between the Big 2.5 and North America are a net benefit to all of us. What Japan Inc and Korea does is just window dressing to allow people like you to sleep at night with the notion that your Asian POS is not killing your neighbor's jobs.

What exactly does Korea do for Canada's economy? ZERO.

You are one disgruntle car salesman.

Maybe because the Big Three are not giving your show room the cars people want to buy, and the Asians are, so as I was saying before, they need to wake up, at least Ford is bringing over Mercury German models, maybe Saturn should step up and bring more Opel cars over! And Chevy too, not just crossovers, and rebadged Daewoos.

[Guest aatbloke]

Give yourself a shake.

At least Toyota and Honda pay lipservice to production facilities in Canada. Hyundai has nothing more than a few warehouses and some dealers in this country. GM, Ford and Chrysler have been contributing to the Canadian economy for almost 100 years. Or did you not know that GM is the largest 'Canadian' company on the Toronto Stock Exchange? Or the Beacon Project where GM has invested well over a billion dollars in Oshawa and environs. Or all the tie-ins GM has with Georgian College. Or the design center in Oshawa that designed and builds the Impala and Equinox.

Besides, Detroit is just across the river from Windsor. Maybe some of the execs or engineers in Michigan own summer homes in Ontario and contribute to the economy that way. Or look at all the Canadians who work in Michigan (including the governor, for Gawd's sake) for the Big 2.5.

Money and investment that circulate between the Big 2.5 and North America are a net benefit to all of us. What Japan Inc and Korea does is just window dressing to allow people like you to sleep at night with the notion that your Asian POS is not killing your neighbor's jobs.

What exactly does Korea do for Canada's economy? ZERO.

Hyundai have no production facilities in the UK, but we don't have hoards of blue-collar workers out on the streets complaining about it. We live in a free market and if there's demand for their vehicles here, they're welcome to join in the competition to vie for prospective punters.

If you don't believe that Honda's and Toyota's production facilities don't significantly contribute to the US economy then you're very misinformed. Take Honda's Marysville and East Liberty, Ohio plants as an example: everyone, from US-based parts suppliers, to utility companies servicing it, right down to landscaping and catering businesses, benefits. The suppliers its employees decide to use to spend their hard-earned wedge on, benefit. Furthermore, every taxing jurisdiction the plant caters to, from local to state to federal level, benefits.

Why do the Ohio plants do so well? They build products the public want. During Honda's time there, it's witnessed the US Big 3 continually dwell on leviathan trucks and SUVs while paying lip-service to the market segments the Ohio plants caters to by producing sub-standard products in those segments, save for the recent Theta and stretched Epsilon platform cars, and to some extent the Cobalt. By the time the Cavalier went out of production, it was so antiquated compared to its rivals it was little more than a joke. Whatsmore, it was so poorly built, GM were essentially giving the then up-and-coming Koreans a carte blanche in the US market.

The problems faced by GM, Ford and Chrysler are all of their own doing, as even today with spiralling fuel prices, not one offers a credible line-up of modern, small cars in their domestic market, save for the likes of Vibe and Astra which themselves are the fruits of agreements with companies outside of the US.

If Honda moved out of Marysville and East Liberty - small towns close to Columbus - tomorrow and leave the USA, would GM, Ford, or Chrysler would step in to plug the gap to allow all those suppliers to regain what they've lost? Highly unlikely.

Edited August 16, 2008 by aatbloke

[CARBIZ]

Hyundai have no production facilities in the UK, but we don't have hoards of blue-collar workers out on the streets complaining about it. We live in a free market and if there's demand for their vehicles here, they're welcome to join in the competition to vie for prospective punters.

If you don't believe that Honda's and Toyota's production facilities don't significantly contribute to the US economy then you're very misinformed. Take Honda's Marysville and East Liberty, Ohio plants as an example: everyone, from US-based parts suppliers, to utility companies servicing it, right down to landscaping and catering businesses, benefits. The suppliers its employees decide to use to spend their hard-earned wedge on, benefit. Furthermore, every taxing jurisdiction the plant caters to, from local to state to federal level, benefits.

Why do the Ohio plants do so well? They build products the public want. During Honda's time there, it's witnessed the US Big 3 continually dwell on leviathan trucks and SUVs while paying lip-service to the market segments the Ohio plants caters to by producing sub-standard products in those segments, save for the recent Theta and stretched Epsilon platform cars, and to some extent the Cobalt. By the time the Cavalier went out of production, it was so antiquated compared to its rivals it was little more than a joke. Whatsmore, it was so poorly built, GM were essentially giving the then up-and-coming Koreans a carte blanche in the US market.

The problems faced by GM, Ford and Chrysler are all of their own doing, as even today with spiralling fuel prices, not one offers a credible line-up of modern, small cars in their domestic market, save for the likes of Vibe and Astra which themselves are the fruits of agreements with companies outside of the US.

If Honda moved out of Marysville and East Liberty - small towns close to Columbus - tomorrow and leave the USA, would GM, Ford, or Chrysler would step in to plug the gap to allow all those suppliers to regain what they've lost? Highly unlikely.

We're talking about Hyundai here and about Canada specifically. This is not Free Trade. Trade from Korea is almost one way. Their trade deficit with Canada is obscene.

As another 80,000 Canadian manufacturing jobs have evaporated, my point is that those buying Korean cars are not helping THIS economy one iota.

Yes, at least Toyota and Honda slap together a few vehicles in Canada to avoid any future problems with NAFTA, but its nice to keep the debate on the assembly line workers, rather than on the preferred 'value-added' jobs like the metalurgists, chemists, engineers, draftspersons, etc. - all of whom are in Japan or Korea.

Please stick to subjects that you (almost) know something about, like the failed-state of manufacturing in the UK.

[Guest aatbloke]

Please stick to subjects that you (almost) know something about, like the failed-state of manufacturing in the UK.

I was referring to your "Japan Inc" reference.

Over 1.5 million cars are built in the UK each year, of which over 70% are exported. In addition to that, a quarter of a million commercial vehicles are manufactured in the UK every year, of which 50% are exported. More car and commercial units are built here than when the Rover Group was in existence. The car industry in the UK employs over 800,000 people. So can you explained the "failed-state", or are you still living in your dreamworld where share ownership means everything and productivity means nothing?

I'm quite sure you know something about the Canadian motor industry, but you obviously know nothing about the UK or European arenas and whatsmore, evidently as little about basic economics as you do about basic accountancy.

Edited August 16, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

We're talking about Hyundai here and about Canada specifically. This is not Free Trade. Trade from Korea is almost one way. Their trade deficit with Canada is obscene.

I'm trying to think of the products built by GM, or Ford, in Canada which could conceivably be attractive for export to ordinary Koreans and Japanese living in crowded urbanised countries with punitive motoring taxes and fuel prices exceeding $6 a gallon:

Err ... err ... err ... err ... can't think of any.

Edited August 16, 2008 by aatbloke

[Blake Noble]

Great, another pissing match.

[Guest aatbloke]

Great, another pissing match.

Seriously, he should think about what he's talking about he starts banging on about "unfair" trading between Canada and Korea/Japan. If you insist on being different in terms of automotive tastes from the rest of the world, then you have no room for maneouvre if consequently your products don't have mass-market appeal elsewhere.

[Blake Noble]

Seriously, he should think about what he's talking about he starts banging on about "unfair" trading between Canada and Korea/Japan. If you insist on being different in terms of automotive tastes from the rest of the world, then you have no room for maneouvre if consequently your products don't have mass-market appeal elsewhere.

You have a valid point here. It's common sense, really.

However, I do tend to think that the Asian manufacturers in North America have one advantage over the domestic automakers here in that they do not have Unions. The UAW, etc., have had a role in the degradation of the Big Three and the rise of Asia Inc.

However, poor management of the domestic automakers is also to blame.

But that is besides the reason why I posted what I posted. This thread has pretty much been one big argument from the start.

Edited August 16, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Guest aatbloke]

You have a valid point here. It's common sense, really.

However, I do tend to think that the Asian manufacturers in North America have one advantage over the domestic automakers here in that they do not have Unions. The UAW, etc., have had a role in the degradation of the Big Three and the rise of Asia Inc.

However, poor management of the domestic automakers is also to blame.

But that is besides the reason why I posted what I posted. This thread has pretty much been one big argument from the start.

There's a lot to be said for union power being detrimental to big business, especially in a more competitive world. Poor management doesn't help at all. Both were the ideal recipe in bringing down Rover, for example.

[CARBIZ]

No pissing match here. I have learned to ignore blow-hards on sites like this. Especially when C&G has debated this point to death over the past 3 - 5 years. By every credible estimation trade between Asia (in particular Japan and Korea) and North America is virtually one way. The trade deficit between North America and those countries is clear on that.

Interesting to note that every auto market in the WORLD (including Russia and China) is open to 'foreign' cars, except Korea and Japan.

[The O.C.]

No pissing match here. I have learned to ignore blow-hards on sites like this. Especially when C&G has debated this point to death over the past 3 - 5 years. By every credible estimation trade between Asia (in particular Japan and Korea) and North America is virtually one way. The trade deficit between North America and those countries is clear on that.

Interesting to note that every auto market in the WORLD (including Russia and China) is open to 'foreign' cars, except Korea and Japan.

Why don't we just skip all this......and get back to the original meaning of the thread.....and congratulate Hyundai for making such dramatic improvements in quality!

For a second forget about where it's made......

I still remember those early days of the Kia Sephia and Sportage.....and what abominations those were. I'm glad to see them react so (relatively) quickly in order to meet the demands of the market over here. It's taken them, what, 25 years to morph into a major player here? AND with renewed quality of fit-and-finish, design, and now, apparently, reliability!

(What have the Big 3 accomplished in the last 25 years?)

[Drew Dowdell]

(What have the Big 3 accomplished in the last 25 years?)

Kinda hard to accomplish anything with an anchor stamped "UAW" tied to your neck, Rodger Smith at the helm, and a bunch of accountants from General Mills running the engine room.

[Guest aatbloke]

I have learned to ignore blow-hards on sites like this. Especially when C&G has debated this point to death over the past 3 - 5 years. By every credible estimation trade between Asia (in particular Japan and Korea) and North America is virtually one way. The trade deficit between North America and those countries is clear on that.

So tell me, exactly what Canadian-built cars would have sufficient mass-market appeal to the Koreans and Japanese to sell in numbers viable enough to warrant an export agreement? Please, bear in mind the realities of car ownership costs in those countries, not to mention established competition. To sell in sufficient enough numbers in these markets, you have to be looking at C-segment vehicles or smaller, with engine capacities not exceeding 2.0 litres.

Interesting to note that every auto market in the WORLD (including Russia and China) is open to 'foreign' cars, except Korea and Japan.

Sales of foreign cars are up dramatically this year in South Korea, by some 30% according to industry estimates. For many years Japanese cars were banned completely in South Korea, but that is no longer the case. Japanese cars are still banned in North Korea.

As for Japan, many foreign manufacturers sell their products there.

The Chinese require local joint venture partners to sell products in its country.

In Australia, if you manufacture a vehicle that cannot be adapted to RHD, then you cannot legally sell it for highway use.

In the USA, only cars which adhere to the FMVSS lighting and safety standards can legally be sold, whereas most of the rest of the world adopts Europe's UNECE standard. The cost of adaptation is usually enormous with stringent rules placed upon manufacturers to meet these regulations prior to sale. For private individuals seeking personal vehicle importation, the cost involved is usually uneconomic.

Canada adopts its own CMVSS standard, which follows the FMVSS regs almost verbatim although it does have certain exclusions allowing certain UNECE lighting, whereas FMVSS does not.

Mexico accepts vehicles complying with both FMVSS and UNECE standards for general sale.

Edited August 16, 2008 by aatbloke

[pow]

Hyundai have no production facilities in the UK, but we don't have hoards of blue-collar workers out on the streets complaining about it. We live in a free market and if there's demand for their vehicles here, they're welcome to join in the competition to vie for prospective punters.

If you don't believe that Honda's and Toyota's production facilities don't significantly contribute to the US economy then you're very misinformed. Take Honda's Marysville and East Liberty, Ohio plants as an example: everyone, from US-based parts suppliers, to utility companies servicing it, right down to landscaping and catering businesses, benefits. The suppliers its employees decide to use to spend their hard-earned wedge on, benefit. Furthermore, every taxing jurisdiction the plant caters to, from local to state to federal level, benefits.

Why do the Ohio plants do so well? They build products the public want. During Honda's time there, it's witnessed the US Big 3 continually dwell on leviathan trucks and SUVs while paying lip-service to the market segments the Ohio plants caters to by producing sub-standard products in those segments, save for the recent Theta and stretched Epsilon platform cars, and to some extent the Cobalt. By the time the Cavalier went out of production, it was so antiquated compared to its rivals it was little more than a joke. Whatsmore, it was so poorly built, GM were essentially giving the then up-and-coming Koreans a carte blanche in the US market.

The problems faced by GM, Ford and Chrysler are all of their own doing, as even today with spiralling fuel prices, not one offers a credible line-up of modern, small cars in their domestic market, save for the likes of Vibe and Astra which themselves are the fruits of agreements with companies outside of the US.

If Honda moved out of Marysville and East Liberty - small towns close to Columbus - tomorrow and leave the USA, would GM, Ford, or Chrysler would step in to plug the gap to allow all those suppliers to regain what they've lost? Highly unlikely.

Agreed... it's all very frustrating when people refuse to acknowledge the contributions of manufacturers other than the Big 3 to the US economy. Here in Southern California, we have no car assembly plants yet the automobile industry is still one of our biggest employers. Their presence is quiet and overshadowed by other things going on in the region, but take for example, how practically everyone in my neighborhood knows at least one person who works for Toyota, Honda, Mazda, or Hyundai. And these are "value-added" jobs, not manufacturing.

Autoline Detroit of all shows did an interesting series on the automobile industry in Southern California, and John McElroy toured the giant facilities they have here.

Edited August 16, 2008 by empowah

[saturnd00d]

Congratulations to Hyundai for a great acomplishment.

On a side note, if I've got 20K to sink into a car, do you think for a second I would buy one just because it was built in my own backyard? Only if it was deserving of my money. Personally I would rather buy the car that suited my needs and budget the best. After all, I'll be driving that same car for the next # of years, and maybe Joe assembler who was working on the day my car was assembled, might have moved on to a different job, or different field of work altogether. You can say I'm patriotic, I'd also like to think so. However I draw the line when it comes to my money and how I want to spend it. I can support my country's economy in many ways, it doesn't have to be just through a car purchase.

[MyerShift]

Congratulations to Hyundai for a great acomplishment.

On a side note, if I've got 20K to sink into a car, do you think for a second I would buy one just because it was built in my own backyard? Only if it was deserving of my money. Personally I would rather buy the car that suited my needs and budget the best. After all, I'll be driving that same car for the next # of years, and maybe Joe assembler who was working on the day my car was assembled, might have moved on to a different job, or different field of work altogether. You can say I'm patriotic, I'd also like to think so. However I draw the line when it comes to my money and how I want to spend it. I can support my country's economy in many ways, it doesn't have to be just through a car purchase.

Agreed in the staggering progress Hyundai seems to have made so far in such a short time, in addition to being brave enough to introduce a luxury, rear wheel drive, available V8 powered sedan while GM flakes in its commitment to such cars. Shame GM.

Also, when I got my new car, I decided upon a Volkswagen Golf (Rabbit).

Why?

Because GM didn't have their act together and have the Opel Astra in dealerships when originally scheduled to be.

Because the Ford Focus degenerated into a stale and loathesome heap.

Because the Chevrolet Cobalt didn't have a comfortable driving position and was cramped and seemed cheap to me despite the pleasantly damped suspension and attractive coupe.

Because Chrysler no longer had the Neon and the Cailber is grotesque in appearance with too much cheapness running amok the interior and (in manuals) a shifter that blocks the climate controls despite the comfortable driving position, nifty features and electronics available.

Since it is my money, I decided on the best built, best driving, most rational road car available to me.

Tis a great pity that GM delayed the Astra for two months too long.

[daves87rs]

I still can't get past 18k for an Accent....

They are really overcharging for those things up there......

[Whistler]

I'm trying to think of the products built by GM, or Ford, in Canada which could conceivably be attractive for export to ordinary Koreans and Japanese living in crowded urbanised countries with punitive motoring taxes and fuel prices exceeding $6 a gallon:

Err ... err ... err ... err ... can't think of any.

What do you know about the South Korean market?

Korea is not the same as Japan. Koreans do not drive tiny kei cars in ultra crowded cities...

Yes it is very urbanised, but much more like the US than Japan... take a look at a picture of traffic in Seoul, the streets are full of big Sonatas, minivans, Hyundai Genesis, Azeras (Grandeur), Hyundai Equus, Ssangyong Maxima clones, even SUVs.

There are plenty of American/Canadian built models that would appeal to Korean consumers if they weren't so protectionist about importing them. Look at China, their consumers LOVE big American style sedans. I think the Korean market would accept them.

Edited September 30, 2008 by Whistler

[Diehard GrandPrix Fan]

Actually, I don't really trust JD Power ratings. I know, I am like the only one. But, reason being is my familie's own experience. Back in 1987, JD Power rated Buick LeSabre as one of the most troublefree car for 3 Months evaluations. My father actually bought that year brand new 87 LeSabre, but after about couple weeks, it was plaqued with minor problems here and there that forced him to make a trip to the dealer for an unscheduled repaires. It even failed to start one day, and once while we were on the road even. At least the problems died down after a while, but in the beginning, it was just HORRIBLE. Same thing goes to my mother's Volvo 850. I know, Volvo is known for their reliability, but to us, it wasn't the case. It had created whole bunch of electrical problems, and most of them the dealer could not take care of at the first try. So many I can write a book about.

I don't trust the J.D.Powers ratings, and I solely go with the luck of the new car I buy. Sure, the percentage can be factor, but just because a car have been picked as the most reliable by J.D.Powers, doesn't mean it's the most troublefree. You have to have some kinda luck with the car you buy, just I have with all 3 Pontiacs I have owned, which all did poorly on the J.D.Power ratings, but has been troublefree for me for as long as I had the car. For the 2 previous Pontiacs, even with the number of accidents I had, the cars withstood that fact and stayed with me with NO PROBLEMS whatsoever.

Well, that's my 2 cents.

Edited September 30, 2008 by Diehard GrandPrix Fan