New Buick to be called LaCrosse, has been butchered.

[The O.C.]

I don't think either of those two names are tarnished. If it had to be narrowed to one, it would be Century, since its most recent incarnation was a modest, entry-level W that has a reputation of appealing to an older segment. LaCrosse has been tarnished since the Canadians invented slang for "f--- yourself." Not exactly the image Buick wants to generate right now, though in context of the sport (which seems to have garnered less chatter than the slang), it was a great Buick name in the tradition of its heritage. The New Buick needs to exude strength, character, style, class, and yes, sexiness, to a 30-70 age market. A task that Buick can do well when it applies itself and creates products that are artfully tasteful and well crafted.

If anything, I think "LaCrosse" is already more tarnished than either Century OR Regal.

The Century and Regal names go way back......LaCrosse was just introduced and instantly became Buick's rental-queen, and was a new name applied to an old car (W-body that is.)

[VenSeattle]

If anything, I think "LaCrosse" is already more tarnished than either Century OR Regal.

The Century and Regal names go way back......LaCrosse was just introduced and instantly became Buick's rental-queen, and was a new name applied to an old car (W-body that is.)

IIRC, the LaCrosse was never fleeted like a "fleet queen." Even right now it's only at 21% just 6 months before being replaced.

I've requested LaCrosses and Lucernes several times when traveling and they're never available. I always get stuck in a Ford 500/Tuarus or an Impala because I'm tired of all the Hyundais and Chryslers that I've had.

[The O.C.]

IIRC, the LaCrosse was never fleeted like a "fleet queen." Even right now it's only at 21% just 6 months before being replaced.

I've requested LaCrosses and Lucernes several times when traveling and they're never available. I always get stuck in a Ford 500/Tuarus or an Impala because I'm tired of all the Hyundais and Chryslers that I've had.

Well, I think, IMHO, any "premium" car that is at 21.4% fleet penetration is a fleet-queen of sorts........

.....especially when even the ubiquitous Camry is at only 8.6%.

[VenSeattle]

Well, I think, IMHO, any "premium" car that is at 21.4% fleet penetration is a fleet-queen of sorts........

.....especially when even the ubiquitous Camry is at only 8.6%.

So, the Toyota Avalon, Audi A5, Volvo S40, Volvo S60, Chrysler 300, Hyundai Azera, and Jaquar X-type are at or above 20%. They're all fleet queens? I agree yes to most, but not all of them.

Volkswagen Passat, Audi Q7, Infiniti FX are all around 15-16%... Are they under the threshhold of being a fleet queen? or are they considered to be whored out like the LaCrosse too? I don't think so.

[Drew Dowdell]

Zipcar has been buying Volvo S40s as their "premium" offering in their car sharing service. I've been meaning to try out the one we just got here in Pittsburgh.

I wonder if Zipcar counts towards fleet totals.... I'd imagine they do.

[VenSeattle]

I think they would also.

The direction I'm going with my post is volume... percentages are deceiving. nearly four times as many Camries go to fleet than LaCrosse. Almost twice as many Avalons when to fleet instead of LaCrosse -

Fleet total for mid year:

Accord - 4,302 units

LaCrosse - 4,546 units

Avalon - 7,885 units

Camry - 17,013 units

The chances of getting a Camry at Avis or Enterprise are much higher than getting a LaCrosse. GM has allowed sales to drop for the LaCrosse as demand dissipates for this generation. GM isn't propping up LaCrosse sales by flooding rental agencies. The LaCrosse isn't a fleet queen. Never has been.

[siegen]

It's a modern interpretation of a classic Buick design cue. You wouldn't want a plain, slab side... like so many cars have nowadays... would you?

Yes yes, I understand that it is a design idea pulled from a previous Buick. It does need a side crease, but I think a single flowing crease would be much more fitting. This side crease is very reminiscent of the old Tiburon. It doesn't look the same, and it is perhaps pulled off better, but it still reminds me of two opposing side crease design used on that vehicle.

These cues are better integrated and much more tasteful than that hideous new Acura grille or that disfigured wheel arch on the front fender of the upcoming 2009 Acura TL. Although I thought the overall shape of the TL was attractive, the poorly executed details (grille and fender arch, not to mention the C-pillar fake out) ruined the car for me.

On the contrary, I feel that this side crease looks just as or more out of place than the Acura grille and wheel arch on the new TL. I want to see more real-world shots of a production model, but I don't think my opinion will change. Don't get me wrong, I have a problem with the front fender flare and the grille on the TL, but this side crease is just as bad.

[Robert Hall]

Yes yes, I understand that it is a design idea pulled from a previous Buick. It does need a side crease, but I think a single flowing crease would be much more fitting. This side crease is very reminiscent of the old Tiburon. It doesn't look the same, and it is perhaps pulled off better, but it still reminds me of two opposing side crease design used on that vehicle.

On the contrary, I feel that this side crease looks just as or more out of place than the Acura grille and wheel arch on the new TL. I want to see more real-world shots of a production model, but I don't think my opinion will change. Don't get me wrong, I have a problem with the front fender flare and the grille on the TL, but this side crease is just as bad.

The side crease and grille give it brand identity, though..without these styling cues, it would be just another generic FWD sedan.

Edited August 18, 2008 by moltar

[balthazar]

LaCrosse - 4,546 units

Camry - 17,013 units

camry = rental queen. Done.

[Northstar]

Looking at it again, it looks way too Korean for my tastes. I thought Buick was making a comeback with the Enclave, but with high gas prices Enclave sales are going to be limited... the LaCrosse is all that Buick will have that shouldn't have a relatively low ceiling on how many they can sell, and it doesn't appear to be near the product the Enclave is... the interior, while very nice, doesn't blow the competition out of the water, and the exterior doesn't look like a $40k any more than the Malibu does.

If this fails, Buick might as well go away, with the Cadillac Lambda coming, the Enclave is really somewhat useless. Cadillac is also getting an Alpha, so I don't see much point for a Buick Alpha. Perhaps this is premature, but I really don't see this LaCrosse doin any better than the current one. I hope I am wrong, but I fear that this vehicle is not going to do very well. Might as well focus on Cadillac and Chevy and import Opels to fit between them as Saturns, kill Buick, Pontiac, Saab, GMC and Hummer and hope GM survives.

[enzl]

All this chatter for a mid-size snoozemobile.

The Concept had great promise---and it looks like only the highest trim levels with 19-20" wheels will even come close to its looks.

When Buick is selling 3k/mo. or less of the LaCrosse, any successor will look like a winner, IMO. Buick desperately needs to be relevant again--and even its fans here have to acknowledge that the 'Invicta' may not be enough.

Buick should have been shooting at CLS for ES money--instead they got a really nice Buick. They'll have big cash on the hood within 6 months as they overproduce high-line versions that they can't sell at $35k.

Another opportunity wasted by GM. They need profits from non-trucks and this was a golden opportunity. I still haven't seen one upcoming model that leads me to believe they have such a product in the pipeline that isn't a CTS. X-overs are entering a crowded market and the rest is simply done better already by someone else.

[wildcat]

sales are going to be limited... doesn't appear to be near the product... doesn't blow the competition out of the water . . . might as well go away . . . somewhat useless . . . don't see much point

Might as well shutter all of GM, for it no longer seems to be able to function competitively. It's not really GM without the core divisions that helped make it an American institution.

[Drew Dowdell]

I really don't see this LaCrosse doin any better than the current one.

Well, not being beaten with an ugly stick should help.

[wildcat]

Maybe GM can just keep showing concept cars and little teaser shots of vehicles that won't be ready for 2 or 3 years. Good luck.

[Robert Hall]

If this fails, Buick might as well go away, with the Cadillac Lambda coming, the Enclave is really somewhat useless.

I haven't heard anything about a Cadillac Lambda. Next gen Escalade?

[wildcat]

with the Cadillac Lambda coming, the Enclave is really somewhat useless

Perhaps the Cadillac would be the useless Lambda and shouldn't be done, since Buick's is successful and competitive and being exported to China.

[Robert Hall]

Perhaps the Cadillac would be the useless Lambda and shouldn't be done, since Buick's is successful and competitive and being exported to China.

Maybe there is room for both..I could see a Lambda based model replacing the Escalade...

[InvictaMan]

Might as well focus on Cadillac and Chevy and import Opels to fit between them as Saturns, kill Buick, Pontiac, Saab, GMC and Hummer and hope GM survives.

Sorry, but that Cadillac eliteist attitude is exactly why I will pull for Buick even more and not favor Caddies as much.

[InvictaMan]

I haven't heard anything about a Cadillac Lambda. Next gen Escalade?

Here you go Moltar, this is the link to the discussion that includes the link to the leftlane article.

[VenSeattle]

with the Cadillac Lambda coming, the Enclave is really somewhat useless

Northstar... OMG...

Buick Enclave runs between $35k-$45k (the price range of the new compact/midsize SRX)

Cadillac Escalade runs $59k-$81k

Oh yeah... I see the overlap if Escalade goes Lambda...

Even if Lambda becomes a model between SRX & Escalade (which I doubt), there will still be a large gap in price, styling, and not to mention clientele.

[VenSeattle]

Looking at it again, it looks way too Korean for my tastes. I thought Buick was making a comeback with the Enclave, but with high gas prices Enclave sales are going to be limited... the LaCrosse is all that Buick will have that shouldn't have a relatively low ceiling on how many they can sell, and it doesn't appear to be near the product the Enclave is... the interior, while very nice, doesn't blow the competition out of the water, and the exterior doesn't look like a $40k any more than the Malibu does.

You came to this conclusion without: pricing, features, options, trim-levels, horsepower, fuel economy, dimensions, clear spy pics, production pics, etc... etc... etc...

The LaCrosse hybrid is out in China now... trust me, there will be one (99% sure to be sold in both markets) to replace it.

[cire]

Maybe there is room for both..I could see a Lambda based model replacing the Escalade...

GM is never going to get lean, mean, and competitive if they keep trying to maintain status quo by stuffing a rebadged clone or platform mate into every division; this is how the divisions lost their identities and relevance in the first place. The Enclave is luxurious enough and successful enough to handle the large luxury crossover segment. A Cadillac version will only cannibalize the Enclave's sales which means GM spent money to develop and market a product to compete against itself (again). This needs to stop. There should be a maximum of 3 vehicles each spun off the Lambda and Theta platforms.

This would all be simplified if GM would see the light and combine Buick with Cadillac to form the luxury dealer network. Buick would handle FWD luxury cars and FWD/AWD luxury crossovers while Cadillac would focus solely on well executed, world class RWD luxury cars.

[smk4565]

Well, I think, IMHO, any "premium" car that is at 21.4% fleet penetration is a fleet-queen of sorts........

.....especially when even the ubiquitous Camry is at only 8.6%.

And the Accord is 2.5% fleet.

Any fwd Cadillac is a bad idea. They need to start Cadillac over from scratch, they are becoming another outlet for GM platform sharing, and are far from being "standard of the world." 3 years from now, Buick and Cadillac will be even worse off than they are now, and GM will be talking of how each brand is going to get in e-flex car in another 2 years and that will save the brand.

[VenSeattle]

There should be a maximum of 3 vehicles each spun off the Lambda and Theta platforms.

There are 4 Lambda vehicles this generation: Chevrolet, Saturn, GMC, & Buick

From my understanding, there will only be three Lambdas for the 2nd gen: Chevrolet, Buick, & Cadillac.

GMC & Saturn will not get a 2-gen 8-passenger vehicle off of Lambda.

There are only three Theta II CUVs planned also: Equinox replacement, GMC version, & Saturn VUE.

There are currently only two TE CUVs planned: Saab 9-4x & Cadillac SRX

[gm4life]

I think Buick still has some potential for growth if GM would properly execute the brand's products. I still think there is a market (here and definitely abroad) for FWD based near luxury products with understated, elegant styling. It's a smaller niche here than abroad, but I think it's a niche that Buick is perfectly suited to handle. If the brand is gaining popularity in China (which is a rapidly growing market) and GM already spends the money to develop the products for that market, then I don't see much harm in continuing the brand with an abbreviated lineup here (and I still think it should be combined with Cadillac). I don't think it would be wise to give up on them just yet.

To me, Pontiac is a bigger waste of resources in its current form. Why spend money to market a brand that basically targets the same affordable portion of the market as Chevy? Unless GM really has a plan up its sleeve to make this brand over (which I seriously doubt at this point), why keep spending money to market it when most of its products are either redundant rebadges or could be sold just as effectively by other brands?:

* The G3/Wave, G5, and Torrent are all unnecessary rebadges of Chevy products and could be discontinued.

* The G6 Sedan is outclassed by its Malibu/Aura platform mates and could be discontinued. The G6 Coupe could be sold as a Chevrolet Monte Carlo. The G6 Convertible could be replaced by a "TwinTop" coupe version of the Opel Insignia if GM were smart enough to create it and sell it here as an Opel Insignia.

* The G8 Sedan could replace the current FWD Chevy Impala. The G8 ST (if GM still insists on importing the Ute) could be badged as a Chevrolet El Camino.

* The Sky outsells the Solstice and is aligned with the global product sold abroad by other GM brands, so I would definitely keep it instead of the Solstice. A luxury retractable hardtop platform mate could then be developed for Cadillac.

* If GM is somehow contractually bound to coproduce the Vibe with Toyota, then it could also be badged as a Chevy just like the coproduced Prism before it.

I think that Saturn is miscast as a captive import division for Opel products. If GM wants to sell Opels over here (which I don't think is a bad idea; they could be real import fighters if marketed properly), then they should sell them here as Opels. Since Opel doesn't have the market baggage of Saturn or Pontiac, I think it would give GM a solid chance to properly mold and market a division to target those who generally gravitate toward import brands. Opel could take over for both Pontiac and Saturn in the U.S as a single import fighter division. The development money has already been spent to create these products for Europe, so why not build them over here and market them under a name that could be molded to represent premium Euro sourced products to U.S. buyers.

If GM plans on keeping Saab (which I still think might be a somewhat questionable move), then it should be combined with Opel to form a Euro focused division.

As far as GMC, I say relegate it to commercial fleet sales or make it the corporation's sole truck/SUV division and combine it with Chevrolet (which would still carry affordable, mainstream cars/crossovers + the Camaro & Corvette).

Hummer needs to be sold. GM doesn't need to waste its resources on a brand that will be an incredibly small niche player in the future. If GM wants to build a Wrangler competitor (the proposed H4 brand saver product which is so NOT a priority at the moment), then GMC can sell it.

Chevrolet, Opel, Saab, Buick, and Cadillac are all global brands that could also be shaped to target specific parts of the market in the U.S. GMC (which is also active in the Middle East) still has value as either the sole truck/SUV division or a commercial fleet vehicle sales only division or both. Saturn and Pontiac are both restricted to North America only and waste marketing dollars for the corporation by targeting the same affordable portion of the market as Chevrolet. Hummer is more valuable to GM as a commodity to sell to generate revenue. To me, the idea setup for GM's U.S. operations would be Chevrolet/GMC (affordable, mainstream), Opel/Saab (import focused), and Buick/Cadillac (luxury).

Pontiac is not a lost cause or a waste of money. Someone could have said that about Saturn, Buick and even Cadillac at one time too. With the a new G6 and G5 Pontiac would be set.

[Paolino]

I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed in the excessive negativity there is towards Buick and this car. I thought it made sense to have Buick as a conservative entry luxury brand and Cadillac is the edgy luxury brand. Obviously there is a huge market for conservative luxury since Lexus sells in droves.

Yes, I was let down on a few details with this car, but it's far too early to call it a complete failure as some have already dubbed it. This is to me, a classy-looking car I would like to own. Whether or not I could afford it is all up to pricing. I have a feeling this is going to start around 26/27 for the base.

People thinking this car is going to top $40K, well, I feel that's unrealistic. Buick is not at that point yet and won't be for several years. (EDIT: at the point for the midsize entry luxury car to have a huge price range right now, and hit $40K)

Edited August 20, 2008 by Paolino

[thegriffon]

So, the Toyota Avalon, Audi A5, Volvo S40, Volvo S60, Chrysler 300, Hyundai Azera, and Jaquar X-type are at or above 20%. They're all fleet queens? I agree yes to most, but not all of them.

Volkswagen Passat, Audi Q7, Infiniti FX are all around 15-16%... Are they under the threshhold of being a fleet queen? or are they considered to be whored out like the LaCrosse too? I don't think so.

The Maxima is also fleeted more heavily than the LaCrosse. For the segment the LaCrosse has the lowest fleet rate. It's partly a function of the segment itself—these more expensive midsize sedans are preferred by people who are not paying for them themselves, but can't persuade those who are to spend much more.

[thegriffon]

You might quite accurately christen this segment of the US market "Executive sedans". Drivers may receive a car as part of a salary package, they travel business class rather than economy and may be able to swing a more expensive rental at their destination. They need a family car, but want something more upscale than the ubiquitous Camry and Accord. Since they will be using it for business as well an SUV or minivan is not appropriate. Realtors, business account managers, mid-level bureaucrats, auditors, small accountants etc.

Edited August 20, 2008 by thegriffon

[Intrepidation]

On a side note, every time I hear about another FWD Cadillac CUV part of me dies a little inside.

[InvictaMan]

To me, the idea setup for GM's U.S. operations would be Chevrolet/GMC (affordable, mainstream), Opel/Saab (import focused), and Buick/Cadillac (luxury).

I truly think that GM could benefit from this theory. Except I am a purist when it comes to GM brands, and I still see Pontiac models relevant to the scenario. A lean, mean GMNA fighting machine would have structured itself like this in my book: Chevrolet/Pontiac/GMC (affordable, sport and truck), Opel/Saab (import focused), and Buick/Cadillac (executive/luxury). Quit acting like a board sitting over a brood of spoiled, pampered or starved siblings and make them all work together as a team. This would streamline focus, targets, marketing and dealership infrastructure. Not to mention that the dealership experience can be more appropriately tailored to suit each market's potential buyer. Makes for a much more solid GM. To me, Saturn was a mistake and is very dispensible. GM should have had the kahunnas to evolve their existing divisions into what the market desired rather than to kill off a division to start a new one to take on the imports. Brand recognition is a difficult argument at GM when their brands have been butchered up. I think the Opel name would be fresh, familiar and well received here, actually garnering more quality cred than the econobox-come-lately Saturn. Saab could benefit from the foot traffic as well and not sacrifice any of its reputation as a high-end import. This is a topic we should have taken elsewhere, lol.

Edited August 20, 2008 by InvictaMan

[cire]

I truly think that GM could benefit from this theory. Except I am a purist when it comes to GM brands, and I still see Pontiac models relevant to the scenario. A lean, mean GMNA fighting machine would have structured itself like this in my book: Chevrolet/Pontiac/GMC (affordable, sport and truck), Opel/Saab (import focused), and Buick/Cadillac (executive/luxury). Quit acting like a board sitting over a brood of spoiled, pampered or starved siblings and make them all work together as a team. This would streamline focus, targets, marketing and dealership infrastructure. Not to mention that the dealership experience can be more appropriately tailored to suit each market's potential buyer. Makes for a much more solid GM. To me, Saturn was a mistake and is very dispensible. GM should have had the kahunnas to evolve their existing divisions into what the market desired rather than to kill off a division to start a new one to take on the imports. Brand recognition is a difficult argument at GM when their brands have been butchered up. I think the Opel name would be fresh, familiar and well received here, actually garnering more quality cred than the econobox-come-lately Saturn. Saab could benefit from the foot traffic as well and not sacrifice any of its reputation as a high-end import. This is a topic we should have taken elsewhere, lol.

Actually, I could see your proposal working too if they kept Chevy mostly FWD (except the Camaro and Corvette, which are iconic Chevrolet products in the U.S.) and kept Pontiac RWD. I do think GM could make Pontiac something unique in the market if they would give the brand an affordable RWD lineup. I'm a little doubtful that they would do this for Pontiac based on some of the corporation's recent product/platform decisions.

You're right, I did derail this forum topic. Oops!

[The O.C.]

LaCrosse - 4,546 units

Camry - 17,013 units

camry = rental queen. Done.

Get real.....WILL YOU?

Let's talk about the retail-side of the equation. How many retail, customer-sought-after-and-purchased Camrys are sold? Yeah...that's what I thought.

How many retail LaCrosses are sold? Yeah....that's also what I thought......

I see you put alot of intelligent thought into your post above before you typed it....didn't you?

[The O.C.]

I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed in the excessive negativity there is towards Buick and this car. I thought it made sense to have Buick as a conservative entry luxury brand and Cadillac is the edgy luxury brand. Obviously there is a huge market for conservative luxury since Lexus sells in droves.

Yes, I was let down on a few details with this car, but it's far too early to call it a complete failure as some have already dubbed it. This is to me, a classy-looking car I would like to own. Whether or not I could afford it is all up to pricing. I have a feeling this is going to start around 26/27 for the base.

People thinking this car is going to top $40K, well, I feel that's unrealistic. Buick is not at that point yet and won't be for several years. (EDIT: at the point for the midsize entry luxury car to have a huge price range right now, and hit $40K)

Conservative, yet classy......that should be Buick.

This car appears conservative, allright.....but hardly classy at all (IMHO.)

[Drew Dowdell]

Rather than trying to be the "American Lexus", Buick should strive to be the "American Jaguar".

If you were going to apply the tag line "Grace, Space, Pace" to any American brand in their "ideal" state, Buick would get first dibs.

[VenSeattle]

Get real.....WILL YOU?

Let's talk about the retail-side of the equation. How many retail, customer-sought-after-and-purchased Camrys are sold? Yeah...that's what I thought.

How many retail LaCrosses are sold? Yeah....that's also what I thought......

I see you put alot of intelligent thought into your post above before you typed it....didn't you?

You want intelligent? We aren't talking retail... ---> Fact is you'll see almost 4 times as many Camries driving around with a rental scan bar than the LaCrosse. In actual quantity, you're just as likely to see a rental LaCrosse as you are a rental Accord... which is next to NEVER.

Most Buicks on the road MY2005 to present are driven by the owner. That's the point here. I, of all people, want to rent Buicks when I travel and can't ever seem to get one... not even through Avis. That's how much of a "rental queen" they are.

Enterprise has almost 6,000 US rental locations.

National has over 3,000 US rental locations.

HERTZ has about 1,900 US rental locations.

AVIS has about 1,700 US rental locations.

Alamo has around 1,000 US rental locations.

Tell me my chances of finding one of the 4,xxx 2008 LaCrosses available that were sent to rental agencies so far this year?

[Paolino]

I know this is in the middle of the bitchfest, but anyone notice this LaCrosse has central locking? I'm not sure I like the idea of reaching to the end of the console to lock the doors. Then again, the console was very high in the car.

[Robert Hall]

I know this is in the middle of the bitchfest, but anyone notice this LaCrosse has central locking? I'm not sure I like the idea of reaching to the end of the console to lock the doors. Then again, the console was very high in the car.

I always thought 'central locking' meant one button on the fob to lock everything, one button to unlock everything.

[smk4565]

Rather than trying to be the "American Lexus", Buick should strive to be the "American Jaguar".

If you were going to apply the tag line "Grace, Space, Pace" to any American brand in their "ideal" state, Buick would get first dibs.

But Jaguar is a sports car, more so than Cadillac. Buick makes soft riding cars that tend to float, and at a much lower price point.

[Paolino]

I always thought 'central locking' meant one button on the fob to lock everything, one button to unlock everything.

Maybe I'm using the wrong term... I mean the only lock button appears to be on the center console.

[balthazar]

Get real.....WILL YOU?

Let's talk about the retail-side of the equation. How many retail... How many retail...

I see you put alot of intelligent thought into your post above before you typed it....didn't you?

Dude, YOU were the one who trotted out an unsubstatiated "rental-queen" charge against the LaCrosse based solely on an always-misleading percentage figure, and once it was pointed out that there are 4 times the amount of rental camrys out there, you suddenly want to "get real" and shift ground to talk about completely unrelated retail sales. You know, you could've just ended it gracefully by admitting your initial charge wasn't exactly accurate instead of doin' the twist to heap more hate on Buick / more love on toyota.

[Drew Dowdell]

But Jaguar is a sports car, more so than Cadillac. Buick makes soft riding cars that tend to float, and at a much lower price point.

XJ and S-type aren't exactly the most athletic. Those, at a lower price point, are what Buick should try to emulate.

But still, "Grace, Space, Pace" should be Buick's definition.

[Paolino]

But still, "Grace, Space, Pace" should be Buick's definition.

Oh, how I wish it were. Unfortunately we're getting rid of the "Space" part it seems.

[Robert Hall]

Oh, how I wish it were. Unfortunately we're getting rid of the "Space" part it seems.

Except for the Enclave..it's quite spacious. Alas, I don't think we will see big comfy cushy sedans from GM anymore.

[smk4565]

XJ and S-type aren't exactly the most athletic. Those, at a lower price point, are what Buick should try to emulate.

But still, "Grace, Space, Pace" should be Buick's definition.

The S-type (which was terrible) went out of production 6 months ago, and the XJ, though dated looking is very light for it's size and is pretty quick. It really needs the redesign that is coming in 2 years, and the new 5.0 liter V8 should make it plenty fast. The XK and XF are athletic, they are what Jaguar is going to become.

[Paolino]

Except for the Enclave..it's quite spacious. Alas, I don't think we will see big comfy cushy sedans from GM anymore.

Yes, but it's the sedans I care about!

[Drew Dowdell]

The S-type (which was terrible) went out of production 6 months ago, and the XJ, though dated looking is very light for it's size and is pretty quick. It really needs the redesign that is coming in 2 years, and the new 5.0 liter V8 should make it plenty fast. The XK and XF are athletic, they are what Jaguar is going to become.

You aren't listening </surprise>

I'm saying Buick should aim for what Jaguar was, not what they will become.

[smk4565]

You aren't listening </surprise>

I'm saying Buick should aim for what Jaguar was, not what they will become.

But Jag of the 70s, 80s, 90s, was known for poor to mediocre build quality and dated designs that didn't look like they were from the current decade. Nothing to aspire to be, although they at least used real wood trim and had a V12.

[Drew Dowdell]

But Jag of the 70s, 80s, 90s, was known for poor to mediocre build quality and dated designs that didn't look like they were from the current decade. Nothing to aspire to be, although they at least used real wood trim and had a V12.

Are you purposefully obtuse? Jaguar's tagline in the past was "Grace, Space, Pace". That is what Buick should strive to be. They should not strive to be a super quiet refrigerator on wheels <Lexus>. They should NOT strive to be a BMW or Mercedes fighter.

I'm sure it was no mistake that the last generation Park Ave had very XJ like lines.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I'm sure it was no mistake that the last generation Park Ave had very XJ like lines.

That's the direction I wanted Buick Styling to go... that LastGen Park Avenue was really nice.

[Cananopie]

We need some more shots/information on this thing.

This thread has gone on way too long for the images provided.