New Buick to be called LaCrosse, has been butchered.

[daves87rs]

It says LaCrosse on the trunk... I can't imagine this would be anything else.

And Dave..... ?

Sorry bud, I wish I could.....

Let's just say I wouldn't worry yet....... :AH-HA_wink:

[Paolino]

Sorry bud, I wish I could.....

Let's just say I wouldn't worry yet....... :AH-HA_wink:

If you say it in another language, does it count as spilling the beans? Just tell me what you want to say, and I'll translate it :AH-HA_wink:

Well, if there was a smaller, premium car from Buick, I'd consider it. It'd have to really be premium though--I'd want to see things like auto climate control, alloy wheels, leather-wrapped steering wheel with audio controls, heated leather seats, etc.

[ehaase]

Someone knowledgeable at GMI (Docray1) about Cadillac's future plans says that the current DTS will survive through 2014, although the direct injected 3.6 will replace the Northstar at some point. I don't know if this means the Lucerne will also survive through 2014. Since the Volt will supposedly be produced at Hamtramck, I could see the DTS and Lucerne move to Oshawa, but of course, I am no insider.

[Robert Hall]

Someone knowledgeable at GMI (Docray1) about Cadillac's future plans says that the current DTS will survive through 2014, although the direct injected 3.6 will replace the Northstar at some point. I don't know if this means the Lucerne will also survive through 2014. Since the Volt will supposedly be produced at Hamtramck, I could see the DTS and Lucerne move to Oshawa, but of course, I am no insider.

Interesting..I wonder if they will get rid of the 4spd automatic and restyle it between now and then...

[wildcat]

I don't know if this means the Lucerne will also survive through 2014.

Would it be fair to think that whatever China does with the Buick Park Avenue -- they could leave it "as-is," restyle it, move it to another platform, drop it -- would be the likely fate of the Lucerne?

[wildcat]

Sorry bud, I wish I could

Automotive News is doing its annual "future product plans" issues this month, so one clue may be to see what they say about Buick and GM. If not, perhaps we'll have to be patient until the auto show season.

[Lamar]

Yep Yep... That's why I think the Delta II Buick is heading our way.

A few years ago I would have 'ed at that, but there appears to be more of a market for smaller upmarket sedans now. I think Buick would do well there, and since Mercury is heading that way as well (I believe), it's time for some good ol' healthy American competition.

I just hope they don't call it Excelle and threfore conjure up images of crappy Hyundais from years past.

[ehaase]

Would it be fair to think that whatever China does with the Buick Park Avenue -- they could leave it "as-is," restyle it, move it to another platform, drop it -- would be the likely fate of the Lucerne?

I don't think that the fate of the Lucerne and the Chinese Park Avenue are necessarily related. If we didn't have CAFE and still had $2.50/gas, I think we would have the next generation Park Avenue.

[Paolino]

Interesting..I wonder if they will get rid of the 4spd automatic and restyle it between now and then...

Well, I would think they would have gotten rid of the 4-speed by now for a luxury car costing over 40K, but I believe it's been discussed at length that the G-body just can't support the 6-speed.

[Lamar]

Well, I would think they would have gotten rid of the 4-speed by now for a luxury car costing over 40K, but I believe it's been discussed at length that the G-body just can't support the 6-speed.

Yeah... both G and W, as I understand it.

Even if that photo really is the upcoming LaCrosse (a name I have absolutely no problem with), I view it as a HUGE improvement that a Buick sedan will finally be ushered into the modern era.

Just like I said about the G8 on another forum when it was being talked about as well, "Look at what it's replacing."

[Robert Hall]

Well, I would think they would have gotten rid of the 4-speed by now for a luxury car costing over 40K, but I believe it's been discussed at length that the G-body just can't support the 6-speed.

Which is complete BS. How could it not support the 6-speed?

[Lamar]

Which is complete BS. How could it not support the 6-speed?

Apparently they never re-engineered the H, K, or W platforms to accommodate a 6-speed.

[Paolino]

Apparently they never re-engineered the H, K, or W platforms to accommodate a 6-speed.

Question is, would it take a major change to alter the platform to support it? I mean, this is in an area I don't know much about, so I'm just asking blindly.

[Robert Hall]

Question is, would it take a major change to alter the platform to support it? I mean, this is in an area I don't know much about, so I'm just asking blindly.

I have no idea either...the G and W are wide cars, wider than the Epsilon, so I would think there would be enough room for the 6 spd transaxle.. but I have no idea how the dimensions and mount points for the 4spd transaxle compares to the 6spd..but the part where it attaches to engine must be the same, since the 3.6 has been is used with both in fwd applications.

Edited August 12, 2008 by moltar

[balthazar]

Let's boil this down- the G-Body requies a larger trans tunnel & a different trans mount provision. It does not require an entire platform redesign. They choose not to do this (tho it very well may be money that's the issue). Once you put the numbers pissing match aside, GM's 4-spd auto is still butter smooth, dead reliable and completely unobtrusive. It still may pay a tiny penalty in MPG, however.

I'm not a huge proponent of mega-gears due to weight/ cost/ complexity.

Current GM autos go like this:

4-spd = 3-spds + 1 OD

5-spd = 4-spds + 1 OD

6-spd = 4-spds + 2 OD

I have the Allison 5-spd auto in my 2500HD, excellent trans. My brother has the Allsion 6-spd in his 3500, and the shift quadrant shows which gear you're in at the touch of a button. It never goes into 6th except cruising on level highways. Ratios 1-5 are identical, but his has a lower-still OD 6th gear.... yet his transmission is supposedly 'betterer' or 'more moderner' because it has 'more'.

4T80E (DTS) -- 2.96 | 1.62 | 1.0 | .68

5L40E (CTS) -- 3.46 | 2.21 | 1.59 | 1.0 | .76

6L50E ---------- 4.02 | 2.36 | 1.53 | 1.15 | .85 | .67

That's a big ratio change, 4-spd >< 6-spd- tho pure highway mileage is not going to go up noticably with the same OD gear. Theoretically, with today's wider & flatter torque plots, all these gears are even less neccessary, but I realize it doesn't play that way in the real world. I suspect electronics play a major role there.

Edited August 12, 2008 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

Let's boil this down- the G-Body requies a larger trans tunnel & a different trans mount provision. It does not require an entire platform redesign. They choose not to do this (tho it very well may be money that's the issue). Once you put the numbers pissing match aside, GM's 4-spd auto is still butter smooth, dead reliable and completely unobtrusive. It still may pay a tiny penalty in MPG, however.

Does a FWD unibody have a trans 'tunnel' per se, though? Isn't the transaxle ahead of the firewall? Anyway, it comes down to marketing..I would think it's getting harder to push a percieved 'old' transmission when the rest of the market has moved on to 6spds..

[balthazar]

Ahh, you make an excellent point, grasshopper. By default (& experience), I think in RWD engineering terms.

Tho they do have an..... exhaust tunnel, FWD cars' transaxles are ahead of the firewall.

GM does not 'push' the fact that the DTS & Lucerne (and the rest here on Gilligan's Isle) have 'only' 4 speeds, I doubt it plays much at all w/ most consumers.

I'm curious- do you think the many sedans that still 'push' 5-spds lose sales to those with 6-spd? Are people really buying cars with 'number of transmission gears' as a primary factor? Some cars have 7 or 8-spds... are the 6-spds struggling against them? This issue gets greatly overweighted, IMO.

Still, it's obviously only a matter of moving a few items around- we're not talking about an Allison trans in an Aveo; there HAS to be room for the 6-spd in a DTS- it's the largest car GM builds.

[michaelv13]

Still, it's obviously only a matter of moving a few items around- we're not talking about an Allison trans in an Aveo; there HAS to be room for the 6-spd in a DTS- it's the largest car GM builds.

Sure there is room in a DTS for the reason 6-speeds are more compact and lighter than the 4-speeds they replaced. Smaller should fit in anything where the larger used to fit, right? Unless this law changed!

Compact dimensions of 357 mm in length and 197 mm in width for packaging convenience in a variety of front- and all-wheel drive vehicles with transverse-mounted powertrains – one the most compact transmissions in its competitive set

I think the 6-speeds are restrained by production capacity rather than engineering capability. If W and G soldier on we may see the transmission (hopefully) in those vehicles.

Edited August 12, 2008 by michaelv13

[InvictaMan]

More observation to potentially back up the budget model theory. Take a look at that center console. The screen above the controls appears to be smaller in size than that of the NAV screen we've seen. I sure hope that didn't shrink, when everyone else's screens are getting larger. This model does appear to have the ambient lighting, take a look at the sweep of blue across the dash and the glow on the side of the console. Looks like the cheaper rear views too.

Went back and looked and I must say my guess for the production model was pretty much on the money. The biggest difference is in the lower fascia. I actually prefer my lower fascia, more aggressive and less vanilla. Let's hope the projector lenses appear on the upscale version, they look much more in keeping with where this vehicle should be.

Production Invicta Chop Link

Edited August 12, 2008 by InvictaMan

[InvictaMan]

One other thought:

I hope the dealer network will find some way to get input on the content potential buyers would like to see in those initial buys. It was a hopeless challenge to find an Enclave that did not have captains chairs and a NAV without the rear seat DVD system in a tasteful color (that would be black or brown). Not every buyer in their new target range has a brood of kids and are purists about their SUV seating arrangement. This was a "real" problem for full load capacity until they finally came out with the rear, center console. Just thought it might be nice to find what you are looking for when the INVICTA (are you listening Buick and GM? LOL) hits the showrooms.

[cire]

More observation to potentially back up the budget model theory. Take a look at that center console. The screen above the controls appears to be smaller in size than that of the NAV screen we've seen. I sure hope that didn't shrink, when everyone else's screens are getting larger. This model does appear to have the ambient lighting, take a look at the sweep of blue across the dash and the glow on the side of the console. Looks like the cheaper rear views too.

Went back and looked and I must say my guess for the production model was pretty much on the money. The biggest difference is in the lower fascia. I actually prefer my lower fascia, more aggressive and less vanilla. Let's hope the projector lenses appear on the upscale version, they look much more in keeping with where this vehicle should be.

Production Invicta Chop Link

I forgot about your chopped version. If the production version would end up looking like your chopped version, then it would be perfect!

[daves87rs]

Someone knowledgeable at GMI (Docray1) about Cadillac's future plans says that the current DTS will survive through 2014, although the direct injected 3.6 will replace the Northstar at some point. I don't know if this means the Lucerne will also survive through 2014. Since the Volt will supposedly be produced at Hamtramck, I could see the DTS and Lucerne move to Oshawa, but of course, I am no insider.

Actually, at one point-that was going to happen (or go to Lansing)

But as sales are really on the slide-The G bodies are gone as soon as GM finds something to build with the Volt at D-Ham. More Delta stuff, I would guess. :AH-HA_wink:

Maybe even a Delta Buick.....

Then again, GM has many choices.....

[Paolino]

Unfortunately, I'm getting tired of waiting for Buick to make their comeback. I'm going to have to consider what's currently out for my next car purchase, and there's a small chance it may not be GM.

[VenSeattle]

Unfortunately, I'm getting tired of waiting for Buick to make their comeback. I'm going to have to consider what's currently out for my next car purchase, and there's a small chance it may not be GM.

Paolino, the LaCrosse replacement goes on sale in 6 months... can you wait that long? Well, at least until pricing is announced? Then we'll know for sure how GM will be positioning/marketing this vehicle.

[daves87rs]

Unfortunately, I'm getting tired of waiting for Buick to make their comeback. I'm going to have to consider what's currently out for my next car purchase, and there's a small chance it may not be GM.

Understood...I wouln't sweat it though.

You have to get the car that is right for you, even if it is not GM...

I refuse to buy a GM car just beacuse I need to buy GM. That's just plain stupid. Cars cost quite a bit of money...and it is going to be even more importannt to be happy with your purchase, as leasing goes away...

Lucky for me though..there are still quite a few GM cars that I want (Malibu, Astra, HHR...to name a few, I guess :AH-HA_wink: ), so I think GM will still get the sale......

[VenSeattle]

I do agree with you Dave... if I don't like the LaCrosse replacement when it comes out, I'm not going to buy it. So far, I like what I see. It's really down to price & features.

Will it have these features available: HID headlights, memory seats (driver only, or driver and passenger), heated & cooled seats, AWD, power rear sun screen, tri-zone climate control, etc... etc... HUD would be great too, but I'm not holding my breath for that one.

If it does... then it'll be interesting how much a loaded one will go for.

[Drew Dowdell]

I do agree with you Dave... if I don't like the LaCrosse replacement when it comes out, I'm not going to buy it. So far, I like what I see. It's really down to price & features.

Will it have these features available: HID headlights, memory seats (driver only, or driver and passenger), heated & cooled seats, AWD, power rear sun screen, tri-zone climate control, etc... etc... HUD would be great too, but I'm not holding my breath for that one.

If it does... then it'll be interesting how much a loaded one will go for.

Exactly how much would you expect something like that to go for?

[VenSeattle]

Exactly how much would you expect something like that to go for?

Probably around $42k (loaded)... Which keeps it in the same price range as the Lucerne...

$42k is also very close to how much Acura offers almost the same package in the new midsize TL. The ES350 is more expensive (can go up to $50k loaded) and doesn't offer AWD, but Lexus can command a premium. A loaded Maxima is $38k but looks less expensive than the Lexus ES350 and new Acura TL. I expect the LaCrosse replacement to look more upscale than the sport-oriented Maxima...

[trinacriabob]

It's a car that absolutely does NOT know what it wants to be.

The only things I like are the angularity of the headlamps (instead of the current fish eyes) and the fact that the bars in the front grille aren't fully aligned, creating a little more motion and excitement in an otherwise conservative Buick grille.

Other than that, everything else is horrendous. The ledges on the front hood say Chrysler Sebring. The thick roof rail says Saturn Aura. The rear deck says Maxima/Altima, with the taillamps themselves having vestiges of Toyota Corolla/Yaris in their proportions to the overall rear treatment. And the driver says "I can't see, I can't see"...what a ridiculously squatty roofline.

Gee, I'm liking my '08 base model LaCrosse with my boring 3800 V6 more and more....

Edited August 14, 2008 by trinacriabob

[Oracle of Delphi]

It looks like there will not be a Zeta replacement for the DTS. As for Buick think, Alpha & Delta II.

[wildcat]

Pontiac Custom-S: Thank you for the information.

Does anyone think that a variety of body styles would be likely? Or should we expect a

Delta II - 4-door sedan

Epsilon II - 4-door sedan

Alpha - 4-door sedan

Enclave - 4-door vehicle

[smk4565]

Probably around $42k (loaded)... Which keeps it in the same price range as the Lucerne...

$42k is also very close to how much Acura offers almost the same package in the new midsize TL. The ES350 is more expensive (can go up to $50k loaded) and doesn't offer AWD, but Lexus can command a premium. A loaded Maxima is $38k but looks less expensive than the Lexus ES350 and new Acura TL. I expect the LaCrosse replacement to look more upscale than the sport-oriented Maxima...

This car will never touch $42k, my guess is $25,795 to about $34,000 loaded. And it will be a sales dud like the Aura, Astra and G8, unless the Lucerne dies off and they pick up some of that market plus sell to Avis and Enterprise for "premium" class rental car.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

This car will never touch $42k, my guess is $25,795 to about $34,000 loaded. And it will be a sales dud like the Aura, Astra and G8, unless the Lucerne dies off and they pick up some of that market plus sell to Avis and Enterprise for "premium" class rental car.

You are a dumbass.This car will max out $41,000-$43,000 target, And will be a hit.

[Robert Hall]

You are a dumbass.This car will max out $41,000-$43,000 target, And will be a hit.

Seems high for a GM FWD midsize.

[VenSeattle]

Seems high for a GM FWD midsize.

GM will not continue building overlapping midsize sedans. The next-gen Malibu will go over $30k by itself. The Saturn Aura will be next in line. The Buick Epsilon II and SAAB 9-5 will be the premium Epsilon II sedans. I'm sure the 9-5 will go up to $50k or more loaded. The AWD Buick Epsilon II going up to the low $40s is completely reasonable considering its place in GM's line-up and the current MSRPs for the Enclave & Lucerne.

[VenSeattle]

This car will never touch $42k, my guess is $25,795 to about $34,000 loaded. And it will be a sales dud like the Aura, Astra and G8, unless the Lucerne dies off and they pick up some of that market plus sell to Avis and Enterprise for "premium" class rental car.

Buick is selling decently considering the market condition and the vehicle classes that Buick models compete in... and they're selling without being fleeted out like other mainstream brands are doing.

[Robert Hall]

GM will not continue building overlapping midsize sedans. The next-gen Malibu will go over $30k by itself. The Saturn Aura will be next in line. The Buick Epsilon II and SAAB 9-5 will be the premium Epsilon II sedans. I'm sure the 9-5 will go up to $50k or more loaded. The AWD Buick Epsilon II going up to the low $40s is completely reasonable considering its place in GM's line-up and the current MSRPs for the Enclave & Lucerne.

We will see...it seems GM's midsizers have always been focused with competing with other GM brands, rather than non-GM competition..

[Paolino]

GM will not continue building overlapping midsize sedans. The next-gen Malibu will go over $30k by itself. The Saturn Aura will be next in line. The Buick Epsilon II and SAAB 9-5 will be the premium Epsilon II sedans. I'm sure the 9-5 will go up to $50k or more loaded. The AWD Buick Epsilon II going up to the low $40s is completely reasonable considering its place in GM's line-up and the current MSRPs for the Enclave & Lucerne.

That seems overly ambitious to me. The Aura isn't selling so well... and they've gone to giving it a much weaker 4-cylinder engine, which seems like a step backwards from the direction they want to head. The sedans are going to have to overlap to a degree--at least in price.

[smk4565]

You are a dumbass.This car will max out $41,000-$43,000 target, And will be a hit.

Like the Enclave was a "hot seller" and such a hit when they are selling 38,000 a year, while Lexus had years of 100k sales of the more expensive RX. The Lucerne and LaCrosse combined have sold 55,000 in the first 8 months this year, that puts them on pace to sell about 83,000 total. If they move the LaCrosse up market, and don't fleet it, they lose a few sales, and the entry-lux market is already saturated. This is a 50k a year sales volume car, with the Lucerne sales dropping to about 25-30k units a year when it comes out.

[balthazar]

>>"it seems GM's midsizers have always been focused with competing with other GM brands, rather than non-GM competition.. "<<

Disagree- GM has always been focused on competing with other U.S. brands, rather than international brands as they should, but there's been very little focused inter-corporate competition.

[vonVeezelsnider]

It looks like there will not be a Zeta replacement for the DTS.

Please tell me there will still be a big Caddy.... Hopefully with an optional column shift for nostalgia :AH-HA_wink:

[Robert Hall]

Please tell me there will still be a big Caddy.... Hopefully with an optional column shift for nostalgia :AH-HA_wink:

I suspect not.. 1996 (the year of the last big Caddy) is not coming back...which is sad...the Town Car is really the last of it's kind. Though I like ultramodern luxury cars like the CTS, Audis, BMWs, etc, part of me still loves the classic Detroit land yachts.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

Like the Enclave was a "hot seller" and such a hit when they are selling 38,000 a year, while Lexus had years of 100k sales of the more expensive RX. The Lucerne and LaCrosse combined have sold 55,000 in the first 8 months this year, that puts them on pace to sell about 83,000 total. If they move the LaCrosse up market, and don't fleet it, they lose a few sales, and the entry-lux market is already saturated. This is a 50k a year sales volume car, with the Lucerne sales dropping to about 25-30k units a year when it comes out.

You have made a even bigger ass out of yourself.The Enclave was only on sale for 7 month's in 2007 ,and GM was still ramping up production.

The Enclave IS A HIT plain and simple. The average Enclave transaction price is in the $39,000 mark.

The Buick Epsilon II has a very good chance of selling 72,000-78,000 a year, with an average transaction price in the range of $34,000-$37,000.

[VenSeattle]

That seems overly ambitious to me. The Aura isn't selling so well... and they've gone to giving it a much weaker 4-cylinder engine, which seems like a step backwards from the direction they want to head. The sedans are going to have to overlap to a degree--at least in price.

There will be "some" overlap in pricing... but GM will avoid their old strategy:

Chevrolet Midsize sedan. Starting price: $17k

Pontiac midsize sedan. Starting price: $18k

Saturn midsize sedan. Starting price $17.5k

Oldsmobile value midsize sedan. Starting price: $18.5k

Oldsmobile premium midsize sedan. starting price $20.5k

Buick value midsize sedan. Starting price $19k

Buick premium midsize sedan. Starting price $21k

I expect the LaCrosse replacement to start in the high $20s... maybe around $28k or so... then go up to $40k-$42k once you add AWD and technology packages... that's not hard to imagine since the current LaCrosse & Lucerne (along with most sedans, premium or not) stretch between $10k-15k depending on trim, features, and options. Adding a $2k nav to the current LaCrosse Super would push its price over $34k... The Lacrosse replacement will have much more than just a navi system compared to the current car.

A $28,000 base price would position the LaCrosse replacement above the current top trim levels of the Malibu (4-cyl LTZ $26,020; 6-cyl LTZ $27,976), Aura (XR $25,675), and G6 (GXP $27,845.) The Epsilon II Malibu and Aura will be priced higher when they debut.

If the LaCrosse is less expensive than my expectations who am I to complain????!!! But, this is just my expectation. It may be priced a little lower to allow some overlap with the base model LaCrosse replacement and the mainstream triplets from Chev, Sat, & Pontiac.

We'll have to see... but this Buick isn't just a next gen LaCrosse. Its mission and marketing position is changing. GM is only looking to sell around 75,000 annually anyway. The LaCrosse replacement is not meant to be a mainstream/volume sedan. I expect that is what the Delta II premium compact Buick will become.

[VenSeattle]

Like the Enclave was a "hot seller" and such a hit when they are selling 38,000 a year, while Lexus had years of 100k sales of the more expensive RX. The Lucerne and LaCrosse combined have sold 55,000 in the first 8 months this year, that puts them on pace to sell about 83,000 total. If they move the LaCrosse up market, and don't fleet it, they lose a few sales, and the entry-lux market is already saturated. This is a 50k a year sales volume car, with the Lucerne sales dropping to about 25-30k units a year when it comes out.

The Enclave has attracted new buyers to Buick.

It has lowered Buick's buyer average age.

It is not fleeted to maintain sales volumes.

It is successfully competing against premium import CUVs in an extremely competitive market.

It is about to be exported to other markets.

It has a higher average acquisition price than the LaCrosse and Lucerne.

The Enclave has single handedly proven Buick can successfully compete in premium markets with the right product. It should continue to be successful with the HP increase for 2009 along with a small bump in mpg.

As for a near-luxury sedan... Buick has been offering cars in the $30k-$40k range for the past decade. A Buick sedan competing in this price range is not out of character for the Buick brand and is completely appropriate. If the sedan delivers what the class expects (based on market reactions to Enclave as well as previously launched Buick models) there's no reason to believe the sedan will not be well received.

You seem to forget, even in today's declining market, the Lucerne continues to outsell most of its competition while maintaining very low fleet percentages.

[buickguy]

smk just hates Buick. We should just ignore his comments.

If the new Buick came with a supermodel, a cure for cancer, and a trunk full of cash he would still hate it. It's okay to criticize, but get your facts straight and add some suggestions. Hatred alone is a sign of ignorance.

[regfootball]

That seems overly ambitious to me. The Aura isn't selling so well... and they've gone to giving it a much weaker 4-cylinder engine, which seems like a step backwards from the direction they want to head. The sedans are going to have to overlap to a degree--at least in price.

Aura sales have been on fire! where've you been! mostly BECAUSE of the 4 cylinder. Watch them FLY out the door with the new 6 speed.

[thegriffon]

The Enclave has attracted new buyers to Buick.

It has lowered Buick's buyer average age.

It is not fleeted to maintain sales volumes.

It is successfully competing against premium import CUVs in an extremely competitive market.

It is about to be exported to other markets.

It has a higher average acquisition price than the LaCrosse and Lucerne.

The Enclave has single handedly proven Buick can successfully compete in premium markets with the right product. It should continue to be successful with the HP increase for 2009 along with a small bump in mpg.

As for a near-luxury sedan... Buick has been offering cars in the $30k-$40k range for the past decade. A Buick sedan competing in this price range is not out of character for the Buick brand and is completely appropriate. If the sedan delivers what the class expects (based on market reactions to Enclave as well as previously launched Buick models) there's no reason to believe the sedan will not be well received.

You seem to forget, even in today's declining market, the Lucerne continues to outsell most of its competition while maintaining very low fleet percentages.

The Lucerne has really had no direct competition, and sales while still strong, have been consistently declining. Indirectly it competes at the bottom end with smaller premium sedans such as the ES350, Maxima, Avalon, while the V8 models are now competing against the MKS. At the very least in needs a powertrain upgrade, and preferably a major facelift as well, to be competitive against the new Lincoln. I would dump the 3.9 L in favor of the LNF and 6-speed (the 220 PS version if not the full 260 hp engine), and jack up the price at the same time (min $33-35K), and dump the Northstar for the 3.6 DI + 6-speed combo. At the very earliest possible I would also add the future 2.8 DI Turbo if it can offer similar or better power and economy than the future DI Turbo Ford V6. I would be willing to sacrifice sales for higher margins, higher take-up of more expensive options, and more prestige (2-3K a month in the US). And I would make no mention of the ES350 and Avalon in any competitor list, but only the MKS and the Phaeton if it returns without being downsized too much.

[thegriffon]

I suspect not.. 1996 (the year of the last big Caddy) is not coming back...which is sad...the Town Car is really the last of it's kind. Though I like ultramodern luxury cars like the CTS, Audis, BMWs, etc, part of me still loves the classic Detroit land yachts.

The Town Car is on it's way out. Sales are really volatile, as much or more so than GM's medium duty commercial trucks, the Topkick and Kodiak. It can vary from as few as a couple of hundred to a few thousand a month, depending on the volume of fleet orders. That makes production volume very hard to manage, and profitability low as a result. The MKT (T for Town Car) effectively replaces it in the retail lineup, pitching it against high-end minivans such as the Town and Country and Chinese Buick GL8 Firstland as well as the Enclave.

[Robert Hall]

The Town Car is on it's way out. Sales are really volatile, as much or more so than GM's medium duty commercial trucks, the Topkick and Kodiak. It can vary from as few as a couple of hundred to a few thousand a month, depending on the volume of fleet orders. That makes production volume very hard to manage, and profitability low as a result. The MKT (T for Town Car) effectively replaces it in the retail lineup, pitching it against high-end minivans such as the Town and Country and Chinese Buick GL8 Firstland as well as the Enclave.

From what I've heard, '09 or '10 is the last year for the Panthers. Still unclear what they are going to do beyond that for the fleet and police (CV) market. I suppose the Taurus and MKS will be Ford's largest civilian models, supposedly the Sable is going away after '09.