Obama promises $7k tax credit and $3 billion to automakers

[BuddyP]

As we know, they all tell you what you want to hear to get elected... but in the end, we can only hope that whichever one get's elected, that this gets followed through - THIS IS NOT TO BE A POLITICAL THREAD, but posted to show that there still might be some light on the other end.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/04/obama-promis...e-volt-by-name/

Two weeks ago when John McCain was given a personal tour of the Chevy Volt by top GM executives and I covered it here, I received criticism of displaying political bias.

Today Barack Obama gave a speech in Lansing Michigan. He set a plug-in car production goal for America of “1 million 150 mile-per-gallon plug-in hybrids on our roads within six years.”

He also vowed $4 billion in government loans to automakers to help them build plug-ins and offered support to a $7000 tax credit to consumers for buying them.

He mentioned his belief that Michigan would be the site where this new industry would explode from and said this about the Volt:

“I believe we are entering a similar era of expanding consumer choices, from higher mileage cars, to new electric entrants like GM’s Volt, to flex fuel cars and trucks powered by biofuels and driven by Michigan innovation.”

My message isn’t about which political candidate to vote for, but more importantly the fact that both of them are aware of the importance of the Chevy Volt and speaking about it by name. We have come a long way from January 2007 when the concept was first announced.

Edited August 5, 2008 by BuddyP

[Drew Dowdell]

At $40,000 the Volt will be cost effective over a current Pruis at 175k miles

At $30,000 the Volt will be cost effective over a current Pruis at 75k miles

Every bit helps.

[BuddyP]

At $40,000 the Volt will be cost effective over a current Pruis at 175k miles

At $30,000 the Volt will be cost effective over a current Pruis at 75k miles

Every bit helps.

The thing is, is that the public is paying up to $28k for a USED prius.... yeah, people are stupid!

[Drew Dowdell]

Interesting tidbit. I was doing some calculations for a fight on another board I frequent.

Remember those $600 checks you got back in May? They cost the government $168 billion dollars.

That is enough to pay for wind generation installation for every household in the U.S........ 3 times.

Imagine never having to actually pay for recharging your Volt.

[loki]

sorry, but keeping it confined to the volt is probably detrimental to talking about it.

what does the prius get in terms of this type wealth redistribution? and what is the avg. new price?

olds, doesn't gm hope to reduce the price quickly? and it would pay for itself very quickly if it was all driving in it's battery's capacity.

so the possible "tax cred" is $3150 or so. and the msrp is roughly 24000. the the volt will be 2x the price most likely w/ 2x+ the tax cred.

so how is this not like the housing market problems?

[Drew Dowdell]

Either you need to expand your question better or I really need to go grab lunch because I can't wrap my mind around what you just asked.

just in case, I'm going out to lunch......

brb

[BuddyP]

sorry, but keeping it confined to the volt is probably detrimental to talking about it.

what does the prius get in terms of this type wealth redistribution? and what is the avg. new price?

olds, doesn't gm hope to reduce the price quickly? and it would pay for itself very quickly if it was all driving in it's battery's capacity.

so the possible "tax cred" is $3150 or so. and the msrp is roughly 24000. the the volt will be 2x the price most likely w/ 2x+ the tax cred.

so how is this not like the housing market problems?

list price for Prius is $22k-$28k, but by the sounds of it people are paying over sticker price to get 45 mpg... and what will the "improved" Next Gen Prius be priced at? Let's say the Volt comes in at $35k-$40k, will people pay 25%-30% more for 300% better fuel economy? Will have to wait and see. I personally don't see the benefit of either when I can go pay $15k for a 35mpg Cobalt... better yet, a $10k used Colbalt. It will be interesting to see what happens when the final numbers come out.

[BuddyP]

Here is why I think GM will sell the Volt easily at $40k in a couple years... keep in mind the Prius cost will go up in that time frame as well... why not, by 2010, pay an extra $5k for 3 times the gas milage??

You may have to log on too see these Prius auctions?? All of these sold except the first one....

'08 Prius "custom" (LOL!) - 3400 miles, "buy it now" $55k.. someone bid $36k on it

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks...6.c0.m245.l1318

'08 fully loaded 7 miles $33,500

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks...6.c0.m245.l1308

'08 USED 1900 miles $31,750

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks...6.c0.m245.l1318

'08 USED 5300 miles $27,355

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks...6.c0.m245.l1308

'07 USED 6500 miles $26,000

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks...6.c0.m245.l1318

'07 USED 20000 miles $25,000

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks...6.c0.m245.l1308

[gm4life]

What suckers will pay for. The one for 55k is a great laugh.

[siegen]

At $40,000 the Volt will be cost effective over a current Pruis at 175k miles

At $30,000 the Volt will be cost effective over a current Pruis at 75k miles

Every bit helps.

Cost effective over the current Prius, but the Prius isn't exactly the most cost effective vehicle. If you could obtain a Prius at the base MSRP, it wouldn't be too bad, but we all know that won't happen. You have to look at both sides of the coin, the Volt will also see considerable markup over MSRP when it first is released. That is, if it is as popular as it's supposed to be.

And will the Volt be cost effective over a $18,500 60 MPG vehicle?

olds, doesn't gm hope to reduce the price quickly? and it would pay for itself very quickly if it was all driving in it's battery's capacity.

GM does plan to reduce the price. The first year will be very expensive and limited production, but as production ramps up the price will fall. I have doubts it will ever fall below $30,000, but it might not be too bad with government tax credits.

And remember, the plug-in power costs money too, unless you have solar panels on your house or something like that.

[Northstar]

Interesting tidbit. I was doing some calculations for a fight on another board I frequent.

Remember those $600 checks you got back in May? They cost the government $168 billion dollars.

That is enough to pay for wind generation installation for every household in the U.S........ 3 times.

Imagine never having to actually pay for recharging your Volt.

There's no way that 280 million people received those checks, there's only a little over 300 million people in the US. There are certain requirements one has to meet, and I did not meet them (only worked in the summer) nor did anyone I know that's my age other than people who work full-time. Obviously anyone under 16 isn't getting one, and neither is anyone who is retired. Those people make up more than 20 million of 300 million in the population.

Still, it was probably a lot of money.

[balthazar]

There is no 'light at the other end' because whatever benefits that MAY get passed (tax credits, billions of aid) will only be taken out of you from another source. In fact, what I see coming as far as overall individual economic well-being is the 'darkness at the other end' due to the sheer volume of proposed new spending. I am already doing what I can to prepare now...

[siegen]

There's no way that 280 million people received those checks, there's only a little over 300 million people in the US. There are certain requirements one has to meet, and I did not meet them (only worked in the summer) nor did anyone I know that's my age other than people who work full-time. Obviously anyone under 16 isn't getting one, and neither is anyone who is retired. Those people make up more than 20 million of 300 million in the population.

Still, it was probably a lot of money.

You're right. Going off the CIA world factbook (love that site), the population is approximately 304 million, and only 67% of those are aged between 15 and 64, or about 200 million. Of those people you have to take out all the people who are not working for whatever reason, such as high school and college students who choose not to work, people who retired early, etc. I bet the real number of people eligible to receive $600 is closer to 160-170 million.

But then you have to factor in all the other costs associated with the "stimulus checks". The cost of the government employee's who worked on it, the cost to print all the checks, the cost of the president and other official's time spent talking about the damn thing, plus any interest or other cost accrued. It probably did cost the government $168 billion, even though only 60-75% of it actually went to the citizens. And I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is much worse than that.

Edited August 5, 2008 by siegen

[balthazar]

Agreed. Does the Gov pay postage?? The Treasury sent out letters (another mass mailing) to tell everyone 'the check is in the mail'. Double postage (if applicable).

On the other hand, some considerable percentage of those checks was for 'multiple payments' (ie: I got $1800).

[BuddyP]

There's no way that 280 million people received those checks, there's only a little over 300 million people in the US. There are certain requirements one has to meet, and I did not meet them (only worked in the summer) nor did anyone I know that's my age other than people who work full-time. Obviously anyone under 16 isn't getting one, and neither is anyone who is retired. Those people make up more than 20 million of 300 million in the population.

Still, it was probably a lot of money.

FWIW, my 6 mo. old son got $300

[Robert Hall]

There's no way that 280 million people received those checks, there's only a little over 300 million people in the US. There are certain requirements one has to meet, and I did not meet them (only worked in the summer) nor did anyone I know that's my age other than people who work full-time. Obviously anyone under 16 isn't getting one, and neither is anyone who is retired. Those people make up more than 20 million of 300 million in the population.

Still, it was probably a lot of money.

Also, there are income cutoffs...people that make above a certain amount got nothing, which excludes a lot of people and two-income households.

* For a single individual, the income cutoff level is $75,000.

* For a married couple filing jointly, the cutoff is double that: $150,000.

People who earn in excess of those amounts may receive reduced stimulus rebates according to a sliding scale which cuts the rebate $50 for every $1000 they receive in income over the established top income limits.

Edited August 6, 2008 by moltar

[Newbiewar]

Interesting tidbit. I was doing some calculations for a fight on another board I frequent.

Remember those $600 checks you got back in May? They cost the government $168 billion dollars.

That is enough to pay for wind generation installation for every household in the U.S........ 3 times.

Imagine never having to actually pay for recharging your Volt.

wind is not a renewable source of energy... there is only so much of it, and adding too much resistance in the air, would make each generator useless...

[Newbiewar]

Agreed. Does the Gov pay postage?? The Treasury sent out letters (another mass mailing) to tell everyone 'the check is in the mail'. Double postage (if applicable).

On the other hand, some considerable percentage of those checks was for 'multiple payments' (ie: I got $1800).

yes the government pays postage, the USPS is the worlds worst company, and has not seen profit, or breakeven point for decades... doesnt matter if the government pay postage, it finances the losses found at USPS...

[Newbiewar]

sorry, but keeping it confined to the volt is probably detrimental to talking about it.

what does the prius get in terms of this type wealth redistribution? and what is the avg. new price?

olds, doesn't gm hope to reduce the price quickly? and it would pay for itself very quickly if it was all driving in it's battery's capacity.

so the possible "tax cred" is $3150 or so. and the msrp is roughly 24000. the the volt will be 2x the price most likely w/ 2x+ the tax cred.

so how is this not like the housing market problems?

in many states the prius had already been receiving a tax credit... and the japanese government has been subsidizing much of the costs according to Press...

[Sixty8panther]

Obama will not be our prez. in 2009

In the end, the democrats will do what they do best... fail and cry about it.

He might have won if he had not been constantly tripped up by Hi666lary

Clinton and her army of doom.

I'm not a Republican and I sure as hell am not a Democrat.

(to paraphrase Eddie Vedder)

...but I just want to see SOMEONE, anyone, get this country back on track.

The way I see it here are the three most important issues in 2008:

1. Economy. STOP outsourcing, it's bleeding our countries might like a stab wound to the juggular

2. Security... not so much fighting wars but more so securing borders

3. Energy prices, gasoline esp.

Did you know that in July of 2002 here in Massachusetts

home-heating-oil cost $1.12/gallon.

$1.12 a gallon!

And as of this past July, the price was at $4.72

Care to explain to me how this is ot a case of highway robbery?!

You, I and most intelligent people KNOW that this has very little

to do with "emerging industrial nations" & "lack of supply".

---

As far as this years' tax rebate, Julie and I filed married/joint, we got $1200 back.

[Newbiewar]

Obama will not be our prez. in 2009

In the end, the democrats will do what they do best... fail and cry about it.

He might have won if he had not been constantly tripped up by Hi666lary

Clinton and her army of doom.

I'm not a Republican and I sure as hell am not a Democrat.

(to paraphrase Eddie Vedder)

...but I just want to see SOMEONE, anyone, get this country back on track.

The way I see it here are the three most important issues in 2008:

1. Economy. STOP outsourcing, it's bleeding our countries might like a stab wound to the juggular

2. Security... not so much fighting wars but more so securing borders

3. Energy prices, gasoline esp.

Did you know that in July of 2002 here in Massachusetts

home-heating-oil cost $1.12/gallon.

$1.12 a gallon!

And as of this past July, the price was at $4.72

Care to explain to me how this is ot a case of highway robbery?!

You, I and most intelligent people KNOW that this has very little

to do with "emerging industrial nations" & "lack of supply".

---

As far as this years' tax rebate, Julie and I filed married/joint, we got $1200 back.

well one thing no one really talks about, is saddam used to give the U.S. discounted oil. in 2002 i remember filling up a tank or two of gasoline at about 1.29 in California...

in my opinion, this is not supposed to be a political thread, but no one said it couldnt be a trade thread... realistically free trade is only a good thing for us, if we export more then we import, but that is simply not the case currently, and hasnt been for at least a decade or more... i think it was back in 86 that warren buffett started complaining about the trade deficit. thats all im going to add on that topic.. the reason for the oil being so expensive, is mostly because the value of the dollar has collapsed.

[Drew Dowdell]

There's no way that 280 million people received those checks, there's only a little over 300 million people in the US. There are certain requirements one has to meet, and I did not meet them (only worked in the summer) nor did anyone I know that's my age other than people who work full-time. Obviously anyone under 16 isn't getting one, and neither is anyone who is retired. Those people make up more than 20 million of 300 million in the population.

Still, it was probably a lot of money.

Not everyone received only $600, many got more because of family. There was also some business stimulus in there as well.

[Drew Dowdell]

Agreed. Does the Gov pay postage?? The Treasury sent out letters (another mass mailing) to tell everyone 'the check is in the mail'.

I got my "Check is in the mail" two days after I got my check.

I was like.... no it's not... the check is in my bank account.

[Drew Dowdell]

wind is not a renewable source of energy... there is only so much of it, and adding too much resistance in the air, would make each generator useless...

is this a joke?

If you go back to enough sources, wind is hydrogen energy. Hydrogen fuses in the sun creating heat and light for solar energy. Solar energy heats the air on earth causing variances in temperature. Hot air rises, cold air descends, making wind.

So yeah... it's not renewable once the sun burns out.

[Intrepidation]

wind is not a renewable source of energy... there is only so much of it, and adding too much resistance in the air, would make each generator useless...

Funniest thing I've heard all week!

[siegen]

When our magnetic field goes the way of Mars we're all screwed anyway. Let's just keep burning oil.

[Newbiewar]

is this a joke?

If you go back to enough sources, wind is hydrogen energy. Hydrogen fuses in the sun creating heat and light for solar energy. Solar energy heats the air on earth causing variances in temperature. Hot air rises, cold air descends, making wind.

So yeah... it's not renewable once the sun burns out.

im not saying its not a good source of power, im saying if every american (300 million americans) had wind generators in their back yards the effects would be lessened... most likely to a point of pointlessness.

just like if u put 300 million hydrogenerators in the missisippi or colorodo river, the water would cease to move, instead of provide electricity...

just my thoughts on the subject, isnt law or anything... so get the f@#k over it

wind is caused by gravity (sun moon and earths) effects on waters, and the daily temperature increase relitivity...

[Drew Dowdell]

Perhaps I worded it poorly. I'm not saying $168 billion would buy a wind generator for each household. I'm staying that $168 billion would buy enough of the big wind generators to power every household.

Oh yeah, and all those trees stop the wind too.

[Newbiewar]

Perhaps I worded it poorly. I'm not saying $168 billion would buy a wind generator for each household. I'm staying that $168 billion would buy enough of the big wind generators to power every household.

Oh yeah, and all those trees stop the wind too.

that makes more sense...

[Drew Dowdell]

one last correction.....

$168 billion would buy enough of the big wind generators to power every household in America...... three times.

[Newbiewar]

one last correction.....

$168 billion would buy enough of the big wind generators to power every household in America...... three times.

if that were true, and the government knew of it... that would probably provide a much better stimulus on the price of power and other things... better long term advantage

[Drew Dowdell]

if that were true, and the government knew of it... that would probably provide a much better stimulus on the price of power and other things... better long term advantage

Did you just insinuate that the government acts rationally and sensibly?

[Satty]

if that were true, and the government knew of it... that would probably provide a much better stimulus on the price of power and other things... better long term advantage

If Big Oil weren't in bed with the current administration, we would have seen major investments in alternative energy by now. Just think, if 2000 had gone a little differently, we would be in a far better place, energy-wise, right now.

[Newbiewar]

Did you just insinuate that the government acts rationally and sensibly?

hrmm being in the army, you think that i could never forget how rationally they think... ohh well... common sense is not so common

[Robert Hall]

If Big Oil weren't in bed with the current administration, we would have seen major investments in alternative energy by now. Just think, if 2000 had gone a little differently, we would be in a far better place, energy-wise, right now.

Yes, not to mention the billions (trillions?) that have been pissed away over the last 6+ years on 2 pointless wars..

[Newbiewar]

Yes, not to mention the billions (trillions?) that have been pissed away over the last 6+ years on 2 pointless wars..

hey if we werent pissing it away, i'd have no a/c... and beleive you me, when i say it gets hot around here... with a 3 digit low... it never really cools off...

[loki]

well one thing no one really talks about, is saddam used to give the U.S. discounted oil. in 2002 i remember filling up a tank or two of gasoline at about 1.29 in California...

in my opinion, this is not supposed to be a political thread, but no one said it couldnt be a trade thread... realistically free trade is only a good thing for us, if we export more then we import, but that is simply not the case currently, and hasnt been for at least a decade or more... i think it was back in 86 that warren buffett started complaining about the trade deficit. thats all im going to add on that topic.. the reason for the oil being so expensive, is mostly because the value of the dollar has collapsed.

or you could even bring up ross perot. some of us don't remember 86. lol did you know that Buffet's dad was a congressman..his wiki gives him this quote.

"Even if it were desirable, America is not strong enough to police the world by military force. If that attempt is made, the blessings of liberty will be replaced by coercion and tyranny at home. Our Christian ideals cannot be exported to other lands by dollars and guns"

Not everyone received only $600, many got more because of family. There was also some business stimulus in there as well.

i got a notice... but no check, lying bistids

If Big Oil weren't in bed with the current administration, we would have seen major investments in alternative energy by now. Just think, if 2000 had gone a little differently, we would be in a far better place, energy-wise, right now.

or maybe the fuel tax would be more like $.70 and the twin cities bridge would still have happened.

Yes, not to mention the billions (trillions?) that have been pissed away over the last 6+ years on 2 pointless wars..

Afghan was kinda worthy. Iraq was not.

[Robert Hall]

i got a notice... but no check, lying bistids

I didn't get anything.

[balthazar]

>>"realistically free trade is only a good thing for us, if we export more then we import, "<<

Fallacy : if the world was entirely 'good thing free trade', this would be the trade equivalent of an MC Eisher painting. Some countries HAVE to import more than they export - on a dollar-dollar basis- it's imposible not to.

>>"$168 billion would buy enough of the big wind generators to power every household in America...... three times."<<

Fallacy : Wind turbines are never guaranteed to spin 100% of the time any practical place in the world. Available designs have no battery systems. Thus- to avoid brown- and black-outs, backup systems are required..... that would be fossil-fuel backups, currently. Suddenly, companies and individuals all over the world are stocking reserve oil tanks. Demand = ^.

Edited August 7, 2008 by balthazar

[Intrepidation]

>>"realistically free trade is only a good thing for us, if we export more then we import, "<<

Fallacy : if the world was entirely 'good thing free trade', this would be the trade equivalent of an MC Eisher painting. Some countries HAVE to import more than they export - on a dollar-dollar basis- it's imposible not to.

>>"$168 billion would buy enough of the big wind generators to power every household in America...... three times."<<

Fallacy : Wind turbines are never guaranteed to spin 100% of the time any practical place in the world. Available designs have no battery systems. Thus- to avoid brown- and black-outs, backup systems are required..... that would be fossil-fuel backups, currently. Suddenly, companies and individuals all over the world are stocking reserve oil tanks. Demand = ^.

Well remember, if you set up wind farms in various locations across the country, there is going to be wind...it's not like the entire nation has a day where the wind runs out.

Plus, as Oldsmoboi said, and I'm repeating, again, you would have the other sources to use as back ups/supplemental energy when needed, but you would have to use them a lot less I would imagine.

[Drew Dowdell]

>>"$168 billion would buy enough of the big wind generators to power every household in America...... three times."<<

Fallacy : Wind turbines are never guaranteed to spin 100% of the time any practical place in the world. Available designs have no battery systems. Thus- to avoid brown- and black-outs, backup systems are required..... that would be fossil-fuel backups, currently. Suddenly, companies and individuals all over the world are stocking reserve oil tanks. Demand = ^.

You don't think triple redundancy spread across every part of this map that is blue wouldn't cover us?

And in the event that the wind stops blowing across the entire country for a day, there are still coal and nuke plants out there.

[balthazar]

No, I don't. I also don't think 'triple-redundancy' is anywhere close to cost-effective, nor will it be locally-welcomed. Municipalities will fight 'backyard' wind farms tooth & nail- mark my words. These are the same self-centered, short-sighted whack-a-do's that hypocritically moan about dependance on foreign oil, yet are doing nothing individually to reduce their own consumption and everything to oppose these very solutions.

>>"And in the event that the wind stops blowing across the entire country for a day, there are still coal and nuke plants out there."<<

Exactly my point... except that the self-proclaimed next president has already come out against more coal mining or more reactors. I haven't heard of back-up generators that can run on coal, either... plus shipping it across country to stockpile individual wind farms grids will require..... a new source of diesel consumption.

Add to that, not only the wind speed reaching zero scenario, but what of too weak winds to supply demand (expected to grow... what was it; 30% by 2015?)?

There's no free lunch, it's often said ('cept, perhaps, at Costco).

[Drew Dowdell]

No, I don't. I also don't think 'triple-redundancy' is anywhere close to cost-effective, nor will it be locally-welcomed. Municipalities will fight 'backyard' wind farms tooth & nail- mark my words. These are the same self-centered, short-sighted whack-a-do's that hypocritically moan about dependance on foreign oil, yet are doing nothing individually to reduce their own consumption and everything to oppose these very solutions.

>>"And in the event that the wind stops blowing across the entire country for a day, there are still coal and nuke plants out there."<<

Exactly my point... except that the self-proclaimed next president has already come out against more coal mining or more reactors. I haven't heard of back-up generators that can run on coal, either... plus shipping it across country to stockpile individual wind farms grids will require..... a new source of diesel consumption.

Add to that, not only the wind speed reaching zero scenario, but what of too weak winds to supply demand (expected to grow... what was it; 30% by 2015?)?

There's no free lunch, it's often said ('cept, perhaps, at Costco).

Well my "triple redundancy" was coming from the cost of all the stimulus checks sent out. My point was that $168 billion could have been spent with much better returns even if all you did was invest all of it in wind power. It wasn't a comprehensive energy policy.

[balthazar]

Gotcha.

Would love to know --but not if it requires taxpayer money to learn it-- just what percentage of the Eco-Stim was spent on the frivolous as intended, rather that saved or used to pay bills. All mine went right back... to the tax man.

[Intrepidation]

I bet it was a small percentage. I know we used ours to pay bills.