HARDTOP

[HarleyEarl]

I want to start a group of like minded individuals here at C&G for the return of the pillarless hardtop at GM.

Those who want to join in the plea to GM, could put it in their signatures etc.

I need help with the acronym.

H.A.R.D.T.O.P.

Here's a start:

'Hardcore Advocates for the Return of Detroit Tops Only as Pillarless'

Edited August 3, 2008 by HarleyEarl

[A Horse With No Name]

It would be a damn fine thing if we could do it. The problem is that only a very small part of the buying public cares.

I would guess if you rounded up all of the people in North America that were really upset about the B-pillar in the Camaro and such they would probably fill a pretty good sized church...and that's a fraction of buyers that GM, Ford, and chrysler will all round down to Zero.

Carnuts buy only a VERY SMALL minority of cars sold.

But if your serious, I am serious. but since on this car thread no one else has bothered to respond, all I can say is...

I have two sawzalls at the house. Which would you prefer, my Porter Cable 120v plug in or my 18v. Dewalt?

Chris

[XP715]

Carnuts buy only a VERY SMALL minority of cars sold.

True, but we're not talking about not having a post on another ho-hum front wheel drive $h!box sedan for the masses. We're talking about not compromising on features on a vehicle that is marketed specifically towards the very car nuts you speak of.

[HarleyEarl]

True, but we're not talking about not having a post on another ho-hum front wheel drive $h!box sedan for the masses. We're talking about not compromising on features on a vehicle that is marketed specifically towards the very car nuts you speak of.

Perfectly said...I nominate you for Head of General Motors.

Who knows, maybe someone somewhere will hear our feeble plea and bring back the sexiest roofline ever invented.

[XP715]

Hey, Assholes! Re-Do Tops, Omitting Pillars!

Crude, but to the point. Which is what these people need because simple, polite requests and heartfelt dialogue doesn't seem to register with them at all.

[Camino LS6]

Hey, Assholes! Re-Do Tops, Omitting Pillars!

Crude, but to the point. Which is what these people need because simple, polite requests and heartfelt dialogue doesn't seem to register with them at all.

:rotflmao:

Thing is, people may not realize why a hardtop looks better, but they will notice that it does.

[z28luvr01]

Hmm.. seven posts into a thread singing praises about hardtops, and no sign of Silvester. I hope he's OK

[HarleyEarl]

I know!...

Forget the acronym, how about,

'We Like our Tops Hard'.

[§carlet §wordfish]

This has actually been on my mind for some time.

I would like to start my own group to defend the right of American cars to have center posts:

B-PILLaRS

Bitch Please, I Loathe the Lack of Roof Supports

[Newbiewar]

being a part of this board, and a part of camaroz28 for many years now... i still dont know what is so special about hard tops... or even how to identify them

if there is anything to be enthusiastic about, it wouldnt just be the carnuts that would buy it... if its different people will buy it...

America needs a new start up car company... and show the big guys how to make and sell cars the public wants...

being GM, and selling a car for everyone, has been very hard to see these days...

Edited August 4, 2008 by Newbiewar

[Sixty8panther]

Harley, you know you're tugging at my heartstrings, right?

If there is ONE thing otehr then RWD that I think

makes a car worthy of restoration despite rust up

to the door handles, it's a hardtop greenhouse.

---

I think a lot more people would appreciate and favor

a hardtop if they only knew WTF it IS!

Most of today's public would not prefer a blackberry

over a regular cell phone at twice the cost if they

thought the only benefit was a plum-metallic case.

:rotflmao:

Thing is, people may not realize why a hardtop looks better, but they will notice that it does.

CARVE THIS INTO WAGONER's FOREHEAD!!!!!!!!!

[Sixty8panther]

being a part of this board, and a part of camaroz28 for many years now... i still dont know what is so special about hard tops... or even how to identify them

That's sad. And you sell cars!!!!

I'll post a crash-course on the topic tonight, time permitting.

[Newbiewar]

That's sad. And you sell cars!!!!

I'll post a crash-course on the topic tonight, time permitting.

dont sell cars currently, although wish i could again, damn i loved it...

but im an enthisiast based on 4th gen f-bodys... not anything that has had a hard top like some of my friends classics

[A Horse With No Name]

Perfectly said...I nominate you for Head of General Motors.

Who knows, maybe someone somewhere will hear our feeble plea and bring back the sexiest roofline ever invented.

I would agree.

Chris

[mightymouse]

I want to start a group of like minded individuals here at C&G for the return of the pillarless hardtop at GM.

Those who want to join in the plea to GM, could put it in their signatures etc.

I need help with the acronym.

H.A.R.D.T.O.P.

Here's a start:

'Hardcore Advocates for the Return of Detroit Tops Only as Pillarless'

Hillbilly Aardvarks Relentlessly Denying The Obvious Priorities

Don't waste your time.

True hardtops have approximately 15 percent higher risk of a non-ejection fatality in a rollover crash than pillared cars of the same size and exposure pattern.

Because of this fact, your friends at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), Department of Transportation have implemented standards

that demand (in short) that all new vehicles subject to the standard that the roof structure withstand the force of 2.5 times their unloaded vehicle weight,

without significant headroom intrusion....convertibles are exempt from the rule because if you roll one - you are paralyzed or dead-

B-pillars aren't a f*cking option on a vehicle with an integral roof - GM didn't decide to put them in or leave them out on the Camaro!

There are also new side impact requirements that are unbelievable! Don't get me started. Structure isn't an afterthought or a maybe....

It's absolutely critical to good design! I thought we went through this before -remember?

New cars require lighter bodies and more strength! No more pillarless cars -never ever ....sorry. Next!

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/ruling...NPRM-to-FR.html

[XP715]

Hillbilly Aardvarks Relentlessly Denying The Obvious Priorities

Don't waste your time.

True hardtops have approximately 15 percent higher risk of a non-ejection fatality in a rollover crash than pillared cars of the same size and exposure pattern.

Because of this fact, your friends at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), Department of Transportation have implemented standards

that demand (in short) that all new vehicles subject to the standard that the roof structure withstand the force of 2.5 times their unloaded vehicle weight,

without significant headroom intrusion....convertibles are exempt from the rule because if you roll one - you are paralyzed or dead-

B-pillars aren't a f*cking option on a vehicle with an integral roof - GM didn't decide to put them in or leave them out on the Camaro!

There are also new side impact requirements that are unbelievable! Don't get me started. Structure isn't an afterthought or a maybe....

It's absolutely critical to good design! I thought we went through this before -remember?

New cars require lighter bodies and more strength! No more pillarless cars -never ever ....sorry. Next!

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/ruling...NPRM-to-FR.html

Then how come companies like Mercedes can still do it? Sorry, but until I see concrete evidence in black & white that the only reason I'm paying through the nose for such a vehicle (and not really, because a brand new 2009 CLK 350 hardtop coupe can be had starting as low as $47,675 which I GUARANTEE will be around the same price as an American competitor like the Cadillac CTS coupe will start out at) is the fact that an incredible portion of the vehicle's overall cost is associated solely with the fact that the roof has to be made out of some NASA-grade alloy or other such bull$h! to be up to snuff, I'm not buying the argument for a second.

Also, you said earlier that "convertibles are exempt from the rule because if you roll one, you are paralyzed or dead." And? Does that mean that while one acknowledges and assumes the risk of driving a convertible, they could never be expected to do so with a pillarless coupe or sedan? f@#k that! We want the choice!

And your link is broken just like the rest of your argument.

Edited August 5, 2008 by XP715

[HarleyEarl]

ya you tell em XP715!

[FAPTurbo]

Hillbilly Aardvarks Relentlessly Denying The Obvious Priorities

[Intrepidation]

It can't be that hard to make an optional hardtop. If you've got a car that is designed as both a coupe and a convertible, then you take the convertible's beefed-up structure, and replace it with the coupe's fixed roof instead of teh heavier folding roof. It'll way more than the pillared coupe but less than the convertible.

And to those who think the convertibles aren't up to snuff:

The C70 received Good marks for front, back, and side impact, and this is with the roof down.

It isn't a question of can they do it, it's a question of whether or not it mkes business sense to spend the extra money to do it, and will more than a few thousand diehard enthusiasts actually, realistically, car at this point?

[Camino LS6]

Ugh, I am so tired of this country's addiction to "safety".

Life isn't safe, not if it's worth a damn.

Mostly, this alleged safety is more illusion than reality anyway. This super-sanitized version of life we have been building just makes me want to heave.

[GMTruckGuy74]

i still dont know what is so special about hard tops... or even how to identify them

Wasn't there a recent topic/dicussion here on this subject? The reason the "hardtop" was introduced was for those people that liked the open-air driving you get with a convertible but wanted protection from the weather & sun over their head. A hardtop roof gives off the appearance of a metal convertible top; GM's designs, expecially in the early '60s cars, would even offer the look of a true convertible in metal form (see the '61-'62 formal rooflines on Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs for proof). When the windows were closed, there was a small "post" that would appear and that kept the windows on track (see the white Pontiac pic below). With all of the windows open, you have an almost true "open-air" driving experience, and the car looks totally cool to boot.

Here's a little lesson for you in what a hardtop roof looks like on various bodies (2-doors/coupes, 4-doors/sedans, etc):

1957 Chevrolet Bel-Air Sport Sedan:

1961 Pontiac Ventura "Bubbletop" hardtop coupe:

1962 Buick LeSabre Sport Roof: (note the roof design with convertible-like features)

1957 Oldsmobile Super 88 Fiesta:

[Sixty8panther]

I'm with MightyMouse!!!!

BAN all convertibles immediately.

And any and ALL ragtops, or any car without a B-pillar & steel roof over the

passanger's heads should be deemed obsolete and unregisterable!!!

As a matter of fact even sunroofs and moonroofs should be made illegal!

Let's just cut to the chase and issue everyone a goverment approved Yaris

4dr. for $20,000 or at a $7,000 premium upgrade price give the Camry

option.

MM:

I can not beleive YOU would advocate such filth as the extinction of the

hardtop. I guess we'll be yanking that built up V8 in your "fire engine red"

2-door sedan with frameless doors, CLEARLY you have to admit that

a car with high horsepower/weight ratio is unsafe due to oversteer and

the inherant temptation to blatantly defy the national 55-MPH speed limit.

You can have either an iron-duke or the 229-ci V6 that your car was

designed for.

[Sixty8panther]

Wasn't there a recent topic/dicussion here on this subject?

I personally have posted at LEAST a dozen threads on

the topic in my 3.67 years here on this forum.

Supposedly, according to MANY here I beat the topic

to death, it's not that I have higher standards it's that

I'm unrealistic and dilusional.

God forbid we think outside of the C.Y. 2008 Corporate

Box, although even that's a cop-out as Mercedes, and

a few other luxury/exotic car manufactureres still make

2-door hardtops to this day.

And before one more moron says "the Camaro would

cost $47,000 just like the MB CLK if it had a hardtop

bodystyle" I'd like to remind you to politely STFU since

the B-pillared E-class that the CLK is based on does

NOT show a considerable savings over the CLK, all

equipt. being the same!

Put that in your pipe, go sit in your B-pillared modern

tylenol-box with wheels and smoke it!

[Sixty8panther]

THESE UNSAFE DEATH-TRAPS MUST BE MADE ILLEGAL ASAP!!!

- Corvette targa & convertible

- XLR retractible hardtop

- G6 retractable hardtop

- Sky/Solstice

And that is just GM....

How DARE those selfish corporations that deem human

life to be expendable, what wiht not only a blatant

lack of a permenant, fixed B-pillar-ness but also a

complete lack of a steel, fixed, welded roof and

glued in rear side glass*

Thank God we live in a country where the masses allolw

the government to decide what is appropriate and safe.

* helps to aid exit a burning wreck in a post-accident

fuel/electrical fire! Nothing makes for eaesier egress

than a big permenant pane of laminated glass or a

tempered glass that is glued around all edges w/ a 3"

wide rubber-RTV style matterial.

[disgusted, sarcasm]

If it ever comes to that I'd rather be DEAD!

[2005 EquinoxLS]

I'm with MightyMouse!!!!

BAN all convertibles immediately.

And any and ALL ragtops, or any car without a B-pillar & steel roof over the

passanger's heads should be deemed obsolete and unregisterable!!!

As a matter of fact even sunroofs and moonroofs should be made illegal!

Let's just cut to the chase and issue everyone a goverment approved Yaris

4dr. for $20,000 or at a $7,000 premium upgrade price give the Camry

option.

MM:

I can not beleive YOU would advocate such filth as the extinction of the

hardtop. I guess we'll be yanking that built up V8 in your "fire engine red"

2-door sedan with frameless doors, CLEARLY you have to admit that

a car with high horsepower/weight ratio is unsafe due to oversteer and

the inherant temptation to blatantly defy the national 55-MPH speed limit.

You can have either an iron-duke or the 229-ci V6 that your car was

designed for.

Actually it was never designed for an Iron Duke. Times change. Dont get me wrong I would love a 1975-76 Caprice 4-door hardtop. But as a whole frameless wondows in my experience are much harder to get to seal properly let alone also trying to seal the middle between the 2 windows.

[Sixty8panther]

the 229 (chvy-block) 3.8 liter V6 WAS a factory motor for the Malibu,

but way to miss the point entirely.

Times DO change, yes... but not everyone is satisfied with an upright,

stuffy 4-dr. sedan with framed doors, a "peppy" 4-cylinder motor and

an automatic trans....

this is an ETHUSIAST's forum, no...?

Why else would you come here several times a week or day to discuss

cars? I've got higher standars and expectations than many here but I

am willing to be realistic.

And so I say again, I'll gladdly pay the extra $1000, $1500 or whatever

it takes to give me a hardtop, although it should not cost that much of a

premium since the ragtop's side windows, regulators, extra body/frame

reinforcement etc. are 75% of what is required for the "conversion".

Give us the option GM, for once (in the past 30 years) don;t pu$$y out

on a concept-to-production car.

[Sixty8panther]

Newbiewar:

I really am quite ASTONISHED that you have managed

to avoid learning what a hardtop is while belonging to

this forum for as long as you have... Even I will admit

that I go WAY out of my way to give a "routine" public

service announcement on here about the virtues of

owning/driving a hardtop.

As in (pillarless, fixed) hardtop

Check my personal theads, there's several on the topic.

the latest one is the one regarding my wife's Mercedes:

Here's a link,

I sold the '77 Caddy and bought this MB 500SEC for her 2 weeks ago:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...=24772&st=0

and I will, asa(realistically)p post a "Hardtop 101" thread...

[Intrepidation]

All this hardtop talk..but the real question is WTF is this automobile thing you guys speak of?

[Sixty8panther]

Why is veel betta than sqair?

Remember the Superbowl ads with the cromagnon

man who invents the wheel, so that beer may be

carried more efficiently & using less effort?

"wheel suck!"

Edited August 5, 2008 by Sixty8panther

[Intrepidation]

Why is veel betta than sqair?

Remember the Superbowl ads with the cromagnon

man who invents the wheel, so that beer may be

carried more efficiently & using less effort?

"wheel suck!"

Yup, truely one of the great ads of our time.

[A Horse With No Name]

Ugh, I am so tired of this country's addiction to "safety".

Life isn't safe, not if it's worth a damn.

Mostly, this alleged safety is more illusion than reality anyway. This super-sanitized version of life we have been building just makes me want to heave.

Exactly. Why can Harley Davidson make motorcycles that are a million times more likely to kill you if you are hit in the side?

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Newbiewar:

I really am quite ASTONISHED that you have managed

to avoid learning what a hardtop is while belonging to

this forum for as long as you have... Even I will admit

that I go WAY out of my way to give a "routine" public

service announcement on here about the virtues of

owning/driving a hardtop.

As in (pillarless, fixed) hardtop

Check my personal theads, there's several on the topic.

the latest one is the one regarding my wife's Mercedes:

Here's a link,

I sold the '77 Caddy and bought this MB 500SEC for her 2 weeks ago:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...=24772&st=0

and I will, asa(realistically)p post a "Hardtop 101" thread...

Damn, Sylvester, you and I might not always agree on everything, but that is a fine looking Benz!

(Enter sarcsm mode)

Now just step away from the car. The safety Nazi's are coming to take you away, and mAssachusetts childrens protective services will be taking Sophia because you let her ride in an obviously unsafe car.

(Exit sarcasm mode)

Chris

[Intrepidation]

Exactly. Why can Harley Davidson make motorcycles that are a million times more likely to kill you if you are hit in the side?

Chris

Forget being hit, just riding one when the road gets wet.

[A Horse With No Name]

Okay, Boys, I've got a major leage stupid question...has ANYONE got any real world cost data on what a B-pillarless car would cost to make?

I'm thinking about getting a used RX-8 (going in halves to buy the car with my son). The car has rear suicide doors and essentially NO structure around the passenger compartment other than doors...and yet it passes side crash test safety just fine.

If Mazda, one of my fav. carmakers but a tier 2 Japanese make at best (and part owned by Ford) can do this with a sub 30K car, why can't we have a B-pillarless Camaro?

Chris

[Robert Hall]

Damn, Sylvester, you and I might not always agree on everything, but that is a fine looking Benz!

(Enter sarcsm mode)

Now just step away from the car. The safety Nazi's are coming to take you away, and mAssachusetts childrens protective services will be taking Sophia because you let her ride in an obviously unsafe car.

(Exit sarcasm mode)

Chris

Isn't it illegal in Mass. to have kids under age 5 in anything but a minivan, SUV, or Camry ?

[A Horse With No Name]

I'm with MightyMouse!!!!

BAN all convertibles immediately.

And any and ALL ragtops, or any car without a B-pillar & steel roof over the

passanger's heads should be deemed obsolete and unregisterable!!!

As a matter of fact even sunroofs and moonroofs should be made illegal!

Let's just cut to the chase and issue everyone a goverment approved Yaris

4dr. for $20,000 or at a $7,000 premium upgrade price give the Camry

option.

MM:

I can not beleive YOU would advocate such filth as the extinction of the

hardtop. I guess we'll be yanking that built up V8 in your "fire engine red"

2-door sedan with frameless doors, CLEARLY you have to admit that

a car with high horsepower/weight ratio is unsafe due to oversteer and

the inherant temptation to blatantly defy the national 55-MPH speed limit.

You can have either an iron-duke or the 229-ci V6 that your car was

designed for.

I'm a huge convertible fan. I not only get rid of B pillars, I get rid of C pillars too!

Chris

[Robert Hall]

I'm a huge convertible fan. I not only get rid of B pillars, I get rid of C pillars too!

Chris

I love convertibles, but have yet to own one. Sooner or later I'll have one. I love driving convertibles w/ the top up and windows down...like a hardtop. I've also driven them top down w/ windows up (useful on a freeway so I can still hear the stereo).

[A Horse With No Name]

Isn't it illegal in Mass. to have kids under age 5 in anything but a minivan, SUV, or Camry ?

You have entered the Matrix, and Sixty Eights brain is out for reprograming. He will be back spitting up jell-o on himself and driving a Camry shortly.

Seriously, a family I knew that I used to park my 66 Stang' next to at car shows had a 51 Dodge. They took a lot of crap from some family members for letting their grandchildren ride in such an old an obivously "unsafe" car.

People just kill me with their stupidity.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I love convertibles, but have yet to own one. Sooner or later I'll have one. I love driving convertibles w/ the top up and windows down...like a hardtop. I've also driven them top down w/ windows up (useful on a freeway so I can still hear the stereo).

After my grandmother died, my grandfather dated a woman that had a full sized (about 1970) Buick convertible.

My grandfather bought a matching car (actually hers was gold and my grandfathers was yellow, IIRC)

Some of the happiest moments of my boyhood were spent cruising around in those cars.

NOTHING beats a ragtop.

Chris

[XP715]

A family I knew that I used to park my 66 Stang' next to at car shows had a 51 Dodge. They took a lot of crap from some family members for letting their grandchildren ride in such an old an obivously "unsafe" car.

My father's daily driver in the summertime, which I spent a large amount of my childhood riding in, was a 1952 Chevrolet half-ton pickup: an all-steel truck with an all-steel interior that had not one ounce of padding inside it except the seat, flat non-tempered glass, a non-collapsible steering column, no seatbelts, and even a non-vented fuel tank INSIDE THE CAB right behind the seat. The doors didn't automatically lock when it was put into gear, and it didn't have any sensors in the rear bumper to tell us when we were too close to something. It also had four-wheel drum brakes, no power steering, no crumple zones, no traction control, no airbags, no daytime running lights, no ABS, no AWD, and no other safety features that make people's vaginas hurt if they're not present in a new vehicle. And guess what: I lived to tell about it! Through some incredible twist of fate, I was able to escape death each and every time my father so irresponsibly and negligently transported me in that awful deathtrap of a truck! I must be the only one!

Oh wait, no I'm not. People drove "unsafe" vehicles for the first eighty or ninety years they existed, and it would appear as though there are plenty of them left to tell the tale. If anything, I would argue that modern vehicles are as unsafe as older ones, just in different ways: new vehicles have all but removed the human element from driving, meaning people are being conditioned to not pay attention to the way their car behaves, or even to their surroundings. People are driving off the roads and wondering why their goddamn navigation systems didn't tell them to turn! One would think that with more refined and sophisticated equipment, people would be better drivers than ever, but it seems to be moving in the completely opposite direction. I can't wait until one of those self-parking Lexuses (Lexii?) parks itself on the sidewalk on top of somebody's child so maybe THEN people will realize that they should stop conveniencing themselves into obsolescence and ask for a REAL car that combines REAL safety with REAL control and we can finally set aside all the unnecessary gimmicky bull$h!.

Okay...... back on topic: GM, please please PLEASE give us the OPTION of making choice models that are geared specifically towards enthusiasts like the Camaro a hardtop. We're not idiots and we understand that we will never see pillarless versions of any of your mass consumption products, but seriously, you need to stop compromising on what was otherwise perfection.

[Sixty8panther]

XP has said it all right there....

without dropping thirteen F***-bombs for frustration like I would have.

And yes, I agree... the fact that Harley Davidsons & plasti-clad

crotch rockets are littering the roads more than ever now is

someting of an oxymoron since hardtops are unsafe!?

Stupid is as stupid DOES.

I think we NEED hardtops, to help people, regular Americans fall in

love with the automobile again! Even a four door hardtop should

not be out of the question when the majority of the forum, myself

included, were ALL for that Chrysler 300 ragtop concept going into

production, ultra-limited as it may have been....

There's a conversion company making DTS convertibles as e speak.

And as far as all this "weather sealing inadeqacy" blah-blah, BLAH....

ONCE AGAIN! For the love of god, read thi8s and THINK about the

words instead of just chewing over the given consonants & vowels

and then saying something silly/irrelevant AGAIN:

ALL your arguments are slightyl-valid and APPLY X10 to convertibles.

Every single convertible car, be it an exotic Ferrari costing $250,000

or more, or an as tested MSRP $24,500 Mazda Miata, has those same

issues.... have you never read an article about a convertible roadtest

where they mention the "car wash test" or "thunderstorm test"???

And guess what?

People who buy those convertible cars, those

"leaky, noisy, ragtop deathtraps" LOVE them to death.... becasue they

are enthusiasts, not soccer moms who only care about the number of

cupholders & the color of their vehicle.

{takes breath, blood pressure starts to lower...}

[Camino LS6]

My father's daily driver in the summertime, which I spent a large amount of my childhood riding in, was a 1952 Chevrolet half-ton pickup: an all-steel truck with an all-steel interior that had not one ounce of padding inside it except the seat, flat non-tempered glass, a non-collapsible steering column, no seatbelts, and even a non-vented fuel tank INSIDE THE CAB right behind the seat. The doors didn't automatically lock when it was put into gear, and it didn't have any sensors in the rear bumper to tell us when we were too close to something. It also had four-wheel drum brakes, no power steering, no crumple zones, no traction control, no airbags, no daytime running lights, no ABS, no AWD, and no other safety features that make people's vaginas hurt if they're not present in a new vehicle. And guess what: I lived to tell about it! Through some incredible twist of fate, I was able to escape death each and every time my father so irresponsibly and negligently transported me in that awful deathtrap of a truck! I must be the only one!

Oh wait, no I'm not. People drove "unsafe" vehicles for the first eighty or ninety years they existed, and it would appear as though there are plenty of them left to tell the tale. If anything, I would argue that modern vehicles are as unsafe as older ones, just in different ways: new vehicles have all but removed the human element from driving, meaning people are being conditioned to not pay attention to the way their car behaves, or even to their surroundings. People are driving off the roads and wondering why their goddamn navigation systems didn't tell them to turn! One would think that with more refined and sophisticated equipment, people would be better drivers than ever, but it seems to be moving in the completely opposite direction. I can't wait until one of those self-parking Lexuses (Lexii?) parks itself on the sidewalk on top of somebody's child so maybe THEN people will realize that they should stop conveniencing themselves into obsolescence and ask for a REAL car that combines REAL safety with REAL control and we can finally set aside all the unnecessary gimmicky bull$h!.

Okay...... back on topic: GM, please please PLEASE give us the OPTION of making choice models that are geared specifically towards enthusiasts like the Camaro a hardtop. We're not idiots and we understand that we will never see pillarless versions of any of your mass consumption products, but seriously, you need to stop compromising on what was otherwise perfection.

I don't think I could possibly agree more.

Great post!

[balthazar]

Back when the Camaro concept was the only thing to go on, and numerous threads twisted into a sedan vs hardtop discussion.... I asked pointedly for hard data RE hardtop construction cost. No one had even ballpark figures to offer.

The entire hardtop issue (well-responded to by more than 1 in this thread, but esp XP-715) is exactly like the HP issue- who needs 400, 500 or more HP? Cars that go 180-200 MPH in a land that doesn't allow more than 65 in severely-limited areas? For what, in the eyes of the Safety Nazis?

The cost of hardtop has to be negligable, and regardless- those that want it will pay for it.

The safety issue is moot, because there are far more dangerous vehicles to ride in, that are perfectly legal.

The fact remains, offering the Camaro as one (and perhaps later, a few others) would be an excellent segment exclusive with only positive image results for GM. So bring it, already.

[HarleyEarl]

And then the question, why does anything matter in a car?

Why does anything stylistically matter?

For some it's just a converyance. Boring boxes of blandness and banality.

For me and others, we want something more. Something artful. Something that stirs us.

I'm a civilized human being. We've moved beyond the primitive I don't want a camrade car.

I don't want my cars planned by a central government committee.

So, does a pillarless hardtop matter? Of course it does.

Sometimes you have to show people what they are missing.

Art is like that.

[Camino LS6]

Here, here!

[mightymouse]

My father's daily driver in the summertime, which I spent a large amount of my childhood riding in, was a 1952 Chevrolet half-ton pickup: an all-steel truck with an all-steel interior that had not one ounce of padding inside it except the seat, flat non-tempered glass, a non-collapsible steering column, no seatbelts, and even a non-vented fuel tank INSIDE THE CAB right behind the seat. The doors didn't automatically lock when it was put into gear, and it didn't have any sensors in the rear bumper to tell us when we were too close to something. It also had four-wheel drum brakes, no power steering, no crumple zones, no traction control, no airbags, no daytime running lights, no ABS, no AWD, and no other safety features that make people's vaginas hurt if they're not present in a new vehicle. And guess what: I lived to tell about it! Through some incredible twist of fate, I was able to escape death each and every time my father so irresponsibly and negligently transported me in that awful deathtrap of a truck! I must be the only one!

Oh wait, no I'm not. People drove "unsafe" vehicles for the first eighty or ninety years they existed, and it would appear as though there are plenty of them left to tell the tale. If anything, I would argue that modern vehicles are as unsafe as older ones, just in different ways: new vehicles have all but removed the human element from driving, meaning people are being conditioned to not pay attention to the way their car behaves, or even to their surroundings. People are driving off the roads and wondering why their goddamn navigation systems didn't tell them to turn! One would think that with more refined and sophisticated equipment, people would be better drivers than ever, but it seems to be moving in the completely opposite direction. I can't wait until one of those self-parking Lexuses (Lexii?) parks itself on the sidewalk on top of somebody's child so maybe THEN people will realize that they should stop conveniencing themselves into obsolescence and ask for a REAL car that combines REAL safety with REAL control and we can finally set aside all the unnecessary gimmicky bull$h!.

Okay...... back on topic: GM, please please PLEASE give us the OPTION of making choice models that are geared specifically towards enthusiasts like the Camaro a hardtop. We're not idiots and we understand that we will never see pillarless versions of any of your mass consumption products, but seriously, you need to stop compromising on what was otherwise perfection.

You have all made your point clear.... very clear. You do have the OPTION to sawzall your b-pillars out on your camaro if you want....

I'm sure there will be SEMA Camaros w/o them. Needing to withstand a 10,000 lb load on it's roof- GM made the right call.

Who wants a weaker roof that costs much more to develop and validate so that it will pass the Federal tests? Doesn't make sense.

NHTSA Regulates [strangulates] the design process to an insane degree....vision, safety, strength, mpg.....every damn thing.

I wish I could take you to work and show you what it's like.... what we are up against...

The latest big Fed deal now is to design for Pedpro...... Pedestrian protection regulations -extremely light and crushable front ends hooray!

half the car is a crumple zone to protect the dumbass that walks in front of your car while jaywalking

Sorry about the link -besides its 9 million pages of egghead babble anyway that would put you to sleep quick.

I got an eyefull of the red RS production Camaro today up close from every angle...I still want one but FYI the rr qtr glass with

interior trim makes the window opening smaller than a hand....the billar with trim is HUGE....! sorry dudes

I don't think of anyone being a hillbilly or aardvark -jus trying to be funnystupid

Please don't hold your breathe for the big return of the pillarless coupes just enjoy the old ones.

Edited August 6, 2008 by mightymouse

[HarleyEarl]

I got thinking more about the art of the automobile.

We've become so used to them that we're overlooking something.

The automobile is the public art of our times.

They represent us as a culture.

Our canvas is our car.

So when someone dismisses an artful thing such as a pillarless hardtop, they

are missing the point.

I like my cars or trucks to transcend their practical purpose.

We at C&G are constantly sweating visual details on every vehicle we discuss.

We are ultimately discussing the art of the automobile.

[HarleyEarl]

MM...just seeing those airy tops like that....well, something stirred.

[Camino LS6]

A way to back the government off of the auto industry must be found.

Enough is enough.

Nice examples there, Mouse.

[Camino LS6]

Take a look at this thread: http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=24899

It's related to this discussion.