Insignia will come to U.S. as a Saturn, with new sheetmetal, interior

[Moto_08]

This would be a great car for GM but toning it down isn't. GM needs to have the guts to introduce this car exactly like the European one except having Saturn badges. Plus the interior is nicer than the Malibu's.

[Nick]

Honestly, I don't think the panel gaps were that bad. I mean, if I look at an old S Series, L Series, etc. it's not like the first thing I think is, "Oh my God, look at those panel gaps!" I'm sure most people wouldn't even notice, and have no idea the body panels are plastic.

I would like to add that my 5er has no panel gap issues.

[Blake Noble]

A real waste of R&D money. Bring the Insignia over to the North American market intact as an Opel and sell it through Saturn dealers as that brand is phased out and replaced with Opel. Opel can also later be sold through Pontiac-GMC dealers if the Buick brand is sold alongside Cadillac and Saab.

[PurdueGuy]

I would like to add that my 5er has no panel gap issues.

got any door dings yet?

[Whistler]

You know it's a darn shame that Lutz didn't take the time to give the recently departed Pontiac GTO and the current Pontiac G8 it's own unique sheetmetal. I might have not been so opposed to those cars if they had taken the time to differentiate the cars and not just make another rebadge of a current model.

I hope they make the new Saturn Aura's sheetmetal as unique as possible, and take the time to do it right.

Why?

Some people don't understand where badge engineering is bad and where it is acceptable.

If GM has a great car overseas from a brand that doesn't exist in North America, I don't care if they just slap a North American badge on it and sell it/build it here as is. There is no problem with that. Only a tiny percent of people (car nuts and people that spend huge amounts of time overseas) will know that its a badge job, and its the cheapest way to get a foreign GM here without drastically changing the car ($$$$) or importing the whole brand/marketing/dealers (even more $$$$). Thats why I have no problem with the Astra, GTO, G8, and the Insignia if it ever comes here.

The problem with badge engineering is when they take a car that is sold here under one brand, make minor changes to the grille and back end, and sell it under a different brand in the same market. That just reeks of cost cutting, examples being the current Equinox/Torrent, the old Cavalier/Sunfire, Cobalt/G5, and dozens of other cars from the 80s and 90s.

[saturnd00d]

Whistler, I agree with everything you've said.

Also, on another note, I don't think people understand, and I mean really understand why GM doesn't bring the Opel brand here. Opel is a premium brand. Europeans are willing to spend more money on premium brands. They don't look so much as to the size of the vehicle for the money, but rather the quality of the vehicle they are buying, and whether it fits their needs or not.

For GM to sell the Insignia here (intact and unchanged) either under the Saturn brand or the Opel brand, they would be selling it for way more than what they intend to sell the Aura successor for, in the first place.

I urge you all to look at any of Opel's sites and see what the Astra is selling for in Euro currency, along with the Antara and Insignia, then convert to U.S currency (plus or minus a few thou to factor in delivery charges, and various things like that) and see if they would be as low priced as the current Saturn lineup.

According to Opel Ireland (I went there because I can read the site), the regular Antara sells for 40,000 Euros. That translates to roughly $59,000 U.S. but for the heck of it, let's say even $50,000 since they assemble it in Mexico. Compare that to how much we pay for the Vue.

Likewise, the Opel Astra "sport hatch" (AKA the Saturn Astra 3 door) retails for a starting price of 23,250 Euro, which would convert to 34,305. Compare that to the Astra that we get (even though it's currently imported from Belgium). As for this vehicle, everyone all across the Internet were stating that if GM brought the Astra stateside intact, unchanged, etc., that they would buy it in a heartbeat. Well, the time has come and gone, but not too many put their money where their mouths were. Just blatant talk.

On to the Insignia, do you all honestly think that if GM-NA brought over the Insignia the way it is over there, that it would sell like hotcakes? LOL. Good looks aside, I'm sorry but we as North Americans don't realize quality. We worship our pocketbooks way too much. For the roughly 85% of Americans and Canadians living in the mediocre payscale, we wouldn't even consider the Insignia, because we would look for a car with similar features for less money.

Look at how everyone bitched about the new Vue because a few thousand more than the original Vues were priced. The brand went upscale and everyone freaked out. The Aura is an upscale product but there were a few drawbacks. Of course there were. We, as North Americans won't pay for a premium product the way Europeans do. So GMNA did what they had to, to offer a car within our reasonable budgets, that offered MOST of what the Vectra did in Europe. Just like what they're going to do with the Aura's replacement. Dumb it down to make it affordable, so that we have a car we are willing to pay for, and they offer us a car they can make a decent buck off of. GM doesn't want to stay in the red forever.

You all have to understand that we don't think like Europeans. They like smaller, more premium cars, and if they want it that bad, they have no trouble paying for it. We like big, flashy cars. We want V8's, superchargers, 20" rims, soft-touch interiors, sculpted exteriors, fully-loaded, all the bells-and-whistles, etc. without actually wanting to pay for it.

So you can all bitch and complain all you want, we'll never be considered the same type of consumer as the europeans are, and therefore we won't necessarily get what they do, at least not for our pricepoint.

[cire]

Whistler, I agree with everything you've said.

Also, on another note, I don't think people understand, and I mean really understand why GM doesn't bring the Opel brand here. Opel is a premium brand. Europeans are willing to spend more money on premium brands. They don't look so much as to the size of the vehicle for the money, but rather the quality of the vehicle they are buying, and whether it fits their needs or not.

For GM to sell the Insignia here (intact and unchanged) either under the Saturn brand or the Opel brand, they would be selling it for way more than what they intend to sell the Aura successor for, in the first place.

I urge you all to look at any of Opel's sites and see what the Astra is selling for in Euro currency, along with the Antara and Insignia, then convert to U.S currency (plus or minus a few thou to factor in delivery charges, and various things like that) and see if they would be as low priced as the current Saturn lineup.

According to Opel Ireland (I went there because I can read the site), the regular Antara sells for 40,000 Euros. That translates to roughly $59,000 U.S. but for the heck of it, let's say even $50,000 since they assemble it in Mexico. Compare that to how much we pay for the Vue.

Likewise, the Opel Astra "sport hatch" (AKA the Saturn Astra 3 door) retails for a starting price of 23,250 Euro, which would convert to 34,305. Compare that to the Astra that we get (even though it's currently imported from Belgium). As for this vehicle, everyone all across the Internet were stating that if GM brought the Astra stateside intact, unchanged, etc., that they would buy it in a heartbeat. Well, the time has come and gone, but not too many put their money where their mouths were. Just blatant talk.

On to the Insignia, do you all honestly think that if GM-NA brought over the Insignia the way it is over there, that it would sell like hotcakes? LOL. Good looks aside, I'm sorry but we as North Americans don't realize quality. We worship our pocketbooks way too much. For the roughly 85% of Americans and Canadians living in the mediocre payscale, we wouldn't even consider the Insignia, because we would look for a car with similar features for less money.

Look at how everyone bitched about the new Vue because a few thousand more than the original Vues were priced. The brand went upscale and everyone freaked out. The Aura is an upscale product but there were a few drawbacks. Of course there were. We, as North Americans won't pay for a premium product the way Europeans do. So GMNA did what they had to, to offer a car within our reasonable budgets, that offered MOST of what the Vectra did in Europe. Just like what they're going to do with the Aura's replacement. Dumb it down to make it affordable, so that we have a car we are willing to pay for, and they offer us a car they can make a decent buck off of. GM doesn't want to stay in the red forever.

You all have to understand that we don't think like Europeans. They like smaller, more premium cars, and if they want it that bad, they have no trouble paying for it. We like big, flashy cars. We want V8's, superchargers, 20" rims, soft-touch interiors, sculpted exteriors, fully-loaded, all the bells-and-whistles, etc. without actually wanting to pay for it.

So you can all bitch and complain all you want, we'll never be considered the same type of consumer as the europeans are, and therefore we won't necessarily get what they do, at least not for our pricepoint.

Actually, GM did us a favor by not making the current Aura look exactly like the Vectra. The Vectra was one hideous looking sedan. In fact, it closely resembled the '04-'07 Chevy Malibu. North America actually came out ahead on that deal. That was the old Opel. The new Opel now has the stunningly beautiful Insignia midsize sedan and wagon that we will never see over here. GM claims that they are altering the sheetmetal and interior to transform the car into the next gen Aura. How I interpret this statement is that the next gen Aura will essentially be a reimagined next gen Malibu with Opel styling cues on the LWB Epsilon II platform. Exactly how does that align Saturn with Opel or the Aura with the Insignia? It doesn't. It aligns Saturn with Chevy. So you have GM covering the same affordable portion of the market with 2 brands (actually 3 if you include Pontiac) while some of its competitors are efficiently and effectively doing it with one. What a waste of money! No wonder GM's financial state is in critical condition.

I don't exactly agree with your statement about Americans. Not all of us think we have to have a land yacht with ghetto sized wheels and an overpowered gas guzzling engine under the hood. There are some of us that appreciate and purchase tasteful, well executed smaller cars. We are the demographic that GM has consistently failed to appeal to and a partial (but small) reason they have lost some market share. Opel's upcoming products could help the corporation attract some of these customers, but it won't be through the Saturn division. The public equates Saturn with quirky and affordable transportation because that was what the division has been since the beginning of its existence. GM will never be able to fully remove or transform this image no matter how hard it tries (which hasn't been too hard in my opinion; the brand's cheap looking advertising really doesn't indicate that anything has drastically changed with the brand). That is the main reason why most of the brand's new products haven't exactly met the corporation's sales expectations (especially the Astra, which happens to have compound problems). Customers are experiencing a huge degree of sticker shock when they enter Saturn showrooms or visit the brand's website because the new products are substantially higher than the customers' expectations (or past products). I think this has actually served to repel some people because they refuse to pay a higher price "for a Saturn" (which still represents "budgetmobile" in their minds), no matter how much improved the new products may be. Attempting to recast Saturn this way was a huge miscalculation on GM's part, magnified by haphazard product planning and poorly developed marketing and advertising. I'm not sure what direction GM should consider taking Saturn. It seems wasteful and ridiculous keeping it as a stand alone division. GM could more effectively cover the affordable portion of the market by redirecting the resources it wastes on Saturn into making Chevrolet the strongest mainstream division on the market. At this point, I seriously think Saturn should be discontinued when the current generation Sky, Aura, Vue, and Outlook reach the end of their model cycles. The only problem would be what to do with the division's stand alone dealerships.

I had originally suggested that the next generation of Opel products (beginning with the Insignia) should be sold under the Opel name in the U.S. I now agree with the opponents of this plan who correctly suggest that GM doesn't have the resources to launch a new division in North America just to carry these products. I now think that these products could be utilized to transform, redefine, and reinvigorate the Pontiac and GMC divisions. To do this, GM must streamline and reconfigure their divisions. First step would be to sell Saab and Hummer; GM needs to concentrate on its core divisions and could seriously use the revenue that would be generated by selling these two divisions. The next step would be to combine Buick with Cadillac to form the luxury dealer network with Buick focusing on FWD luxury cars and crossovers and Cadillac focusing on well executed, world class RWD luxury cars. This would leave the door open for GM to set up Pontiac/GMC as a sporty, midmarket dealer network. The Insignia and next generation Corsa/Tigra/Astra would join the next gen G8/Solstice to make up Pontiac's sporty car lineup. The next generaton Meriva/Zafira/Antara would join the Terrain and Acadia to make up GMC's new lineup of MPVs and crossovers (Chevy would become the corporation's sole truck/SUV division). I think the sportier and somewhat premium perception of Pontiac and GMC aligns better with the sleek and sophisticated styling of Opel's future products much better than Saturn. Better yet, Pontiac and GMC would no longer have to resort to selling rebadged Chevy clone products that seriously damage and dilute their brand images. The addition of rebadged Opel products could help restore the brands' rightful place and purpose as a moderately premium bridge between the Chevy and Buick/Cadillac dealer networks.

I do agree that some alterations would have to be done to the Opel products before they could be sold as Pontiac or GMC vehicles (besides names, badging, and grilles). Like you said, premium customers are not quite the same on both sides of the Atlantic. There would have to be some decontenting done to lower the price (a point that you helped me realize by revealing the actual conversion prices of unaltered Opel products). The prices of the products will have to split the difference between Chevrolet and Buick/Cadillac. GM needs to be careful that the decontenting process doesn't result in the products leaving a cheap impression. GM also needs to ensure that the products have the power and amenities to justify their premium status and prices to U.S. buyers. The biggest problem with the current Astra is that it is underpowered and suffers from a lack of minor amenities and some bizarre ergonomics (as well as the lack of a sedan version). Since this car is priced higher than its more mainstream Cobalt/G5 counterparts, it should at least have the same level of power. GM also needs to ensure that the next gen car has some of the interior appointments and features missing from the current Astra (front center armrest, front cupholders, auxillary media inputs, satellite radio compatibility, etc.). If GM can correct these oversights on the next generation of Opel products, then they should be successful additions to the future lineups of Pontiac/GMC. Unlike what GM has done with Saturn, I don't believe drastic sheetmetal or interior alterations would be necessary to successfully transform Opel products into Pontiac/GMC vehicles.

The final issue that I would like to note is that the products need to be built in North America to avoid the unfavorable exchange rate problem that has also affected the sales success of the current Astra in the U.S.

Overall, you presented a lot of info and insight in your post that has helped me reevaluate some of my views concerning this issue.

[saturnd00d]

Perhaps I was mistaken by speaking of Americans as a whole, because I know that definitely not all Americans want big boat cars with raw V8 power. Obviously that's not true, but I do feel that a larger portion of the country crave more power and size when considering a vehicle, rather than anything else. Obviously there is no statistical data on that, but when you have states like Texas, where people will actually mock you for owning anything but a full size truck or SUV, it adds to the stigma.

It's true, however, that Europeans love their small cars, especially hatchbacks, and coupes. They also, in general, appreciate premium quality. I have relatives in Italy who were astounded to find out that I own the North American version of the Opel Antara. They didn't realize I had such a good job. I laughed at that, because I don't have the greatest paying job. Good certainly, but not great. When I told them how much the base Vue starts at, they were pretty shocked.

Anyways I'm rambling on here, but just saying that if we had the same mentality as the Europeans do about what's important, we wouldn't, as a continent, be in so much debt to own the things we can't normally afford. Until recently with the sticker shock of gas prices along with the onset of a recession in the U.S., we went for bigger cars and trucks than we needed. Only a small portion of Canada and an even smaller one of the U.S. appreciated compact and sub-compact cars as primary vehicles.

In terms of the Saturn brand, I also have to disagree. I am a three-time Saturn owner. The previous two I owned, were the "cheaper look-and-feel" kind that no one on this board ever seemed to have cared for. I appreciated what they were at the time, which was cheap, reliable, good looking econoboxes. They were different from the norm, and they got great gas mileage. With my '98 SC1 (bought in '01), I rivaled by buddy's '02 diesel Jetta in terms of mileage per tank. Obviously he beat me in terms of total mileage, but I was within 110 kms range per tank from him. I got anywhere between 640-670 kms per tank with that car. Anyways, I knew about Saturn going premium since the rumours swirled since I am a self-proclaimed Saturn loyalist. I can tell you that without a doubt, if Saturn's marketing for the Aura (for example) were as good as that of the new Malibu, you'd see a ton more auras on the road. This holds true for all of Saturn's lineup. Having a ton of online-ads on yahoo doesn't make for truly effective marketing, more like pathetic marketing dollars at work. The other problem with Saturn is not the sticker shock at all, it's the dealer network availability.

In the U.S., Saturn retailers are spread out across the country, making them more "inconvenient" to get to. In my area in Southern Ontario, Canada, we have 4 retailers within 30 minutes of my area. Saturns are quite popular around here. You can, just as easily go to a Saturn facility as you would a chevy one. This makes a huge difference. So I say that if GM had more Saturn retailers, I would bet dollars to doughnuts, that they would sell alot better than they do right now.

Edited August 28, 2008 by saturnd00d