Hybrid Hype

[Newbiewar]

here is a memo i got from one of our sales trainers. A 2006 Prius costs $4,325 more then a compareable Malibu If you average 55 mpg - pay back time will be 5 years If you average 44 mpg - pay back time will be 6.5 years A major consumer magazine states that 44 mpg is more realistic Based on $3 a gallon and 15,000 per year. Based on a Malibu averaging 27 mpg Hot climates have dramatic impact on fuel economy due to the air conditioning draining the battery thus, requiring the use of the gas engine. Dont park a Prius for 2 weeks without starting, this will drain and damage the batteries. This may not be covered by the warranty because it could be considered owner abuse. Replacement cost of the Prius' battery is approximatly $3,000 plus tax and installation. Tell your customer to check with their insurance company. Many insurance companies charge more to cover a hybrid vehicle. Most Consumer websites state that the current generation of hybrid vehicles will not save the customer money. GM's HYbrid stratagy focuses on first applying hybrid technlogy to the highest fuel consuming vehicles, such as transit buses and full size pickup trucks and sparts utility. GM states that replacing the 13,000 buses operating in the nine largest transit markets in the United states would equal the fuel savings of 500,000 small hybrid vehicles. Let's look at just a few of the advantages that Malibu has over the Prius. more front and rear legroom more front and rear headroom more overal interior volume better crash test ratings from NHTSA Malibu has standard power hight driver seat - Prius does not offer power seats More standard horse power **Malibue 2.2 145 hp - Prius gas engine 72 HP, gas electronic combined = 110 HP Don't forget that JD Power rates Malibu as "Best-In-Class" for initial quality and vehicle dependablity!

[Satty]

I'm pretty sure Prius drivers are running out of excuses. What happens when they find out that their emissions savings are negated by their car being sent to a junkyard and all the crap from the battery seeping into the ground. Edited October 28, 2005 by Satty

[CARBIZ]

Didn't Bush's new energy bill give a $3,000 tax credit to the owners of hybrid vehicles? Right now, it is more about looking like you are doing something, rather than actually doing something. Good post. I could use this info, too.

[Variance]

I'm pretty sure Prius drivers are running out of excuses.  What happens when they find out that their emissions savings are negated by their car being sent to a junkyard and all the crap from the battery seeping into the ground.

[post="35346"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The batteries are recyclable and Toyota pays a $200 bounty for the used batteries. It seems to be pretty much a non-issue.

[cmattson]

I think the tax credit was $2,000 (upped from $1500). Let's say it's $2k A $4325 difference less $2k = $2325. Let's look at the best-case scenario for the Prius: A 2.2l Malibu gets 35mpg (minimum), A Prius 55mpg: To do the typical 15,000 mi/yr, a Malibu requires 429 gallons of gas A Prius takes 273 gallons of gas, a savings of 156 gallons over the Malibu If gas is $3/gallon, then the Prius saves $468/yr. Thats the 4.96 yrs. However, that's not really the full story: Your state has sales tax, doesn't it (don't they all?): In Minnesota, it's 6.5% - and thats PRE income-tax credit, so that's an extra $281 in sales tax. Are you financing it? The difference in interest expense on $4325 over 5 years at 5% (which seems to be the current average) is another $610. That's a total of $891 extra, or almost TWO MORE years above and beyond the 5 years listed -- and that's if gas remains at an all-time high of $3/gallon (the high water mark here in Mpls). Currently, our gas is $2.13/g -- which puts you somewhere between 9 1/2yrs - 10 yrs for the Prius to finally start to turn a profit; about which time you should be concerned about the battery. Can you tell me the last time you've seen *ANY* battery last 10 years -- let alone one that has a constant charge-discharge being applied to it? In summary, if money is your driving factor, the Malibu is MILES ahead of the Prius. Of course, as a Malibu owner, I may be a little bit biased. Edited October 28, 2005 by cmattson

[regfootball]

here is a memo i got from one of our sales trainers.

A 2006 Prius costs $4,325 more then a compareable Malibu
If you average 55 mpg - pay back time will be 5 years
If you average 44 mpg - pay back time will be 6.5 years
  A major consumer magazine states that 44 mpg is more realistic
  Based on $3 a gallon and 15,000 per year.
  Based on a Malibu averaging 27 mpg

Hot climates have dramatic impact on fuel economy due to the air conditioning draining the battery thus, requiring the use of the gas engine.

Dont park a Prius for 2 weeks without starting, this will drain and damage the batteries.  This may not be covered by the warranty because it could be considered owner abuse.

Replacement cost of the Prius' battery is approximatly $3,000 plus tax and installation.

Tell your customer to check with their insurance company.  Many insurance companies charge more to cover a hybrid vehicle.

Most Consumer websites state that the current generation of hybrid vehicles will not save the customer money.

GM's HYbrid stratagy focuses on first applying hybrid technlogy to the highest fuel consuming vehicles, such as transit buses and full size pickup trucks and sparts utility.  GM states that replacing the 13,000 buses operating in the nine largest transit markets in the United states would equal the fuel savings of 500,000 small hybrid vehicles.

Let's look at just a few of the advantages that Malibu has over the Prius.

more front and rear legroom
more front and rear headroom
more overal interior volume
better crash test ratings from NHTSA
Malibu has standard power hight driver seat - Prius does not offer power seats
More standard horse power
**Malibue 2.2 145 hp - Prius gas engine 72 HP, gas electronic combined = 110 HP

Don't forget that JD Power rates Malibu as "Best-In-Class" for initial quality and vehicle dependablity!

[post="35344"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

preaching to the choir! the 4 cylinder bu is an awesome commuter car.

[regfootball]

i wonder what all the eco weenies in their Prii' are getting for mpg on those 10 below winter days.

[the_yellow_dart]

I want to know what the Prius people have to say about my Cobalt getting 5.7 L/100 km on good highway trips (sorry 'mericans, I'm drunk and don't want to translate right now).

[daves87rs]

A co-worker's Bu' gets over 30mpgs (2.2) prety much all the time-no matter what. And she doesn't really do anything to save gas either...

[Robert Hall]

Doesn't the Prius pollute 80% less, though? (at least according to Toyota's 'save the world' commercials..

[Lexcar14]

A lot of people buy hybrids for environmental reasons as well, especially in California, not just for pure savings. Hybrid engines are much more cleaner and efficient...that's a fact.

[Robert Hall]

A lot of people buy hybrids for environmental reasons as well, especially in California, not just for pure savings.  Hybrid engines are much more cleaner and efficient...that's a fact.

I think ultimately that is as important or more so a rationale for hybrids than the gas mileage.... a diesel will get you as good or better mileage, but the pollution issue is a bigger deal.. Edited October 28, 2005 by moltar

[Newbiewar]

Doesn't the Prius pollute 80% less, though?  (at least according to Toyota's 'save the world' commercials..

[post="35528"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

maybe less emissions...

most owners seem to be enviornmentally focused customers. How many of them are considering the impact of the batteries on the enviornment? They are designed to be recycled but there is no guarantee that this will be done as the hybrid fleet ages.

[Dsuupr]

How about comparing the Cobalt which we are seeing 40 mpg if driven like my brother has to drive his prius to get 45 mpg.

[sciguy_0504]

Headline: GM introduces REAL hybrid trucks and SUVs. C&Gers: "YEAH! What a great idea?" "Wow, look at that gas mileage!" "GM is an innovator!" "Take that Toyota, Honda and Ford!" :rolleyes:

[Derek77]

Headline: GM introduces REAL hybrid trucks and SUVs.

C&Gers:  "YEAH!  What a great idea?"  "Wow, look at that gas mileage!"  "GM is an innovator!"  "Take that Toyota, Honda and Ford!"

:rolleyes:

[post="35579"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

HA HA HA!!!! How true, how true!!! :CG_all:

[the_yellow_dart]

I seem to remember the line from Lutz about the hybrid trucks: A Suburban saving 7% of its fuel due to being a hybrid will save more gas than a Prius, which saves something like 20% of its gas due to being a hybrid. The logic was, since the Suburban uses more gas to begin with, and also since it would probably sell better than the Pruis, more overall fuel would be saved per year. Analogy: Saving fuel overall in the US is like dieting. When you're trying to lose weight, it's not the size of the carrot sticks (economy cars) you eat that you need to worry about. It's the size of the donuts and hamburgers (SUVs).

[cmattson]

Headline: GM introduces REAL hybrid trucks and SUVs.

Whaddya mean? GM has REAL hybrids; just not ones that you or I can buy. They are in the full-size busses, and unlike Toyota's PR-heavy Prius, it has a far bigger impact environmentally than all of the Prius's put together. Seems to me like GM is walking the walk when it comes to being environmentally conscious with it's hybrid strategy.

[The O.C.]

Good post and good point.....the same argument can more effectively be made when comparing something like a Jetta TDI versus the Prius. However, I really, really don't believe that most Prius owners bought their cars after putting a serious pencil to the numbers...the attraction to this car seems to be far beyond that. I think the main attraction with the Prius for them is the chance to drive something innovative, clean, and fuel efficient....all wrapped in a distinctively-styled package. Plus, I'm sure there is some draw to the "image" they feel they are protraying by driving the hybrid.

[Cory Wolfe]

I'm just glad that I can't use "Pruis" and "Brookville" in the same sentence.

[sciguy_0504]

Whaddya mean?  GM has REAL hybrids; just not ones that you or I can buy.  They are in the full-size busses, and unlike Toyota's PR-heavy Prius, it has a far bigger impact environmentally than all of the Prius's put together.  Seems to me like GM is walking the walk when it comes to being environmentally conscious with it's hybrid strategy.

[post="35637"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'll change what I said.

GM doesn't have REAL hybrids (yet) that the general public can buy.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm pretty sure Prius drivers are running out of excuses. What happens when they find out that their emissions savings are negated by their car being sent to a junkyard and all the crap from the battery seeping into the ground.

BUT, the damage has already been done and thus Toyota has succeeded. They along with the "buy into anything Toyota" media have single handedly transformed the face of the industry, destroyed Detroit's image further and ENHANCED Toyota's standing as the top dog in yet ANOTHER category of the market.

This technology is worthless unless used to scale, yet NAIVE america and Toyota's friends in the media bought into it and perpetuated this disaster into mainstream think.

Now... Where do we stand? Hybrids are becoming more and more ridiculed as people find out that thy're pretty much a myth and a hoax, Toyota has ALREADY cashed in on the loyalty of the market and will retain that loyalty regardless of where "Hybrid technology" goes and GM and Ford, partially because of fate (Which is always negative to Detroit) and partially because of ignorance (Ignoring hybrid technology and the benefits of marketing it OR counter marketing it) are both poised to cash in on the market with many hybrid offerings JUST AS the "feel good" image of this FAD burns down and just as the media is beginning to wise up and BASH/illustrate the SHORT FALLS of the technology. (Coincidence, maybe... Seeing an opportunity to kick Detroit and accelerate Toyota, MORE LIKELY--the facts were always right in front of their noses)

This is a great comparison, and I defend GM and Ford proudly. BUT, it was sheer stupidity to just sit back and watch the media and Toyota destroy, via a useless car and a pleathora of lies and PR engineering, what LITTLE credibility they (GM and FMC) had gained in the fuel efficiency race simply because they (GM and FMC) wouldn't/didn't engage in MARKETING or INFORMING THE CONSUMER or DEFENDING THEMSELVES (Which seems to be a common theme)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Headline: GM introduces REAL hybrid trucks and SUVs.

C&Gers:  "YEAH!  What a great idea?"  "Wow, look at that gas mileage!"  "GM is an innovator!"  "Take that Toyota, Honda and Ford!"

:rolleyes:

[post="35579"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yep..
I'll be the first one to do it too...

Know why?
Because this is a GM website and I hate Toyota so bad I can't stand it. I'd throw a dinner party for a baby killer before I'd have a Toyota exec at my house. EDIT: Before anyone esle gets offended, this was meant as a joke

So, on that note, eventhough I've ALWAYS been against hybrids as I think they're just a lame outlet for hypocritical boomers to spew their garbage about how they actually care about precious kids of the world, instead of really conserving fuel. BRING ON THE HYBRIDS GM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Oh and uhhh, GM is one better because their applications will use the technology to the scale that it will achieve the greatest possible savings.)

GM doesn't have REAL hybrids (yet) that the general public can buy.

Silverado/Sierra... Been on sale for a year now. And don't say it isn't a real hybrid just because they didn't buy the technology from Toyota (As apparently to some they seem to be the only company that can design a "REAL" hybrid--Guess that came from the media). If the government classifies it as a hybrid then apparently it is.

Also of note: Anyone ever notice that Domestic producers offer the most hybrid models of any of the continental producers and that according to hybrid websites, they have the most hybrids planned to go into production as well?

I didn't think so... Because that's not what the spinmasters WANT you to think.

[Derek77]

Nothings says that GM can't play the PR game like :Toyota: . If it means more sales do it, but don't get bit in the ass doing it.

[sciguy_0504]

FOG, stop drinking the kool-aid. The hypocracy isn't flattering, either. Funny how you rail against people who do not like domestics "just because..." while you refuse to buy imports "just because..." Educate yourself a little bit more about hybrids, too, even if you do not like or agree with them. The Silverado/Sierra "hybrids" are not true hybrids and, no, not because GM didn't purchase Toyota's hybrid technology. I'd also like to see some sources to support your claims.

[Bimmer325]

I'd throw a dinner party for a baby killer before I'd have a Toyota exec at my house.

[post="35697"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You took that one about 3 steps too far man.

[daves87rs]

You took that one about 3 steps too far man.

[post="35858"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'd have to agree with you Bimmer...that comment was a bit harsh...

[daves87rs]

How about comparing the Cobalt which we are seeing 40 mpg if driven like my brother has to drive his prius to get 45 mpg.

[post="35574"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yep, on top of all the money you would be saving in car payments...

[prototype66]

as far as the gm truck system. it does work (quite seamlessly) and is MUCH cheaper in price and repair cost as well as battery replacement plus construction and or outdoors activities advantages. belt start system isMUCH simpler a system as well. B)

[The O.C.]

as far as the gm truck system. it does work (quite seamlessly) and is MUCH cheaper in price and repair cost as well as battery replacement plus construction and or outdoors activities advantages. belt start system isMUCH simpler a system as well. B)

[post="36389"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As far as fuel economy, check out MT's long-term test of the Silverado Hybrid.....fuel economy appears to be no better than any other normal full-size pickup. I believe the as-tested average fuel economy was around 15mpg.

The Silverado system only shuts down the engine at stoplights....it doesn't aid performance OR fuel economy on the go. It's a pretty weak attempt....as hybrids go...

[MatizNiels]

It's because it isn't a hybrid. A Volkswagen Lupo 3L does exactly the same. It is a cheap way to improve fuel economy, but the main improvement is with emissions (Just like hybrids). Stop-and-go automatic is a genious way to improve emissions at stop-lights and car jams. And the generator is also quite nice to have when there's a power shortage. GM only made the mistake to call it a hybrid. And apparently has to hear for it every time it is brought up.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Funny how you rail against people who do not like domestics "just because..." while you refuse to buy imports "just because..."

Offended are we???

Why do need a reason to "rail against" anyone? If I don't like the person or the scenario 'nuff said. there is no unwritten rule saying that anyone has to have justification for why they form opinions a certain way. Maybe I don't like imports or the people who buy them (Not true in reality BTW) and why should I have to justify that? To reassure the scared and the weak so that they can still identify with me?

There is a Marilyn Manson song in which Manson sings; "I don't need a reason to hate you the way that I do." Nothing could be more true because ultimately it's my decision and the parameters on which to make MY decision are mine as well.

Now, is this how one should feel at all times, not really (one wouldn't be able to function in society) and does it apply here, not at all. But it proves a point nonetheless.

You took that one about 3 steps too far man.

It was meant in jest, guess I should've noted that. Sorry if I offended anyone

And apparently has to hear for it every time it is brought up.

But of course.

[Flybrian]

GM only made the mistake to call it a hybrid. And apparently has to hear for it every time it is brought up.

[post="36788"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

IMO, GM made the mistake of not advertising them and not showcasing their usage as mobile built-in generators. I love GM a whole darn lot, but these made lousy fuel economy hybrids. They are, however, contractor specials so to speak.

To consider them not hybrids because they don't return marked increases in fuel economy is misunderstanding what the definition of a hybrid vehicle is - one that uses multiple propulsion systems to provide motive power. The Prius is a hybrid, so is the Insight, the GM pickup trucks, GM hybrid buses, diesel/electric locomotives, the WWII patrol sub USS Wahoo, and those geeky bicycles with a tiny electric motor attached to the rear wheel.

[MatizNiels]

"those geeky bicycles with a tiny electric motor attached to the rear wheel."

Geeky is the perfect word. The Velo Solex:


:D

Back to topic.
Why would you want to learn the dealers what to say about the Prius? I will say pretty much any other mid size would be more interesting. The Prius is still a niche vehicle. Learn the facts about the Camry and Accord instead. They are the ones worth taking sales from.

[Robert Hall]

"those geeky bicycles with a tiny electric motor attached to the rear wheel."

Geeky is the perfect word. The Velo Solex:


:D

Back to topic.
Why would you want to learn the dealers what to say about the Prius? I will say pretty much any other mid size would be more interesting. The Prius is still a niche vehicle. Learn the facts about the Camry and Accord instead. They are the ones worth taking sales from.

Heh-heh... speaking of 'geeky' cars, one of my hardcore computer geek friends (my ex-boss who is a former CTO, independent consultant, UNIX kernel hacker, gadget freak, and all-around uber-geek) bought a first-gen Prius a few years ago.

He said he bought it because it was the 'geekiest car' around... (he accused me of being a yuppie instead of a true geek because I bought an M3)..

[sciguy_0504]

Offended are we???

Not offended. Just merely pointing out the hypocrisy in your argument. The rest of your post is the perfect example.