Detroit Free Press: GM develops brands' images

[wildcat]

Many of us have strong feelings about what each of GM's brands should be. Now, according to an article in the Detroit Free Press, following a study which began three ( ! ) years ago, GM can explain what it intends. Click here.

[HarleyEarl]

Their take on Pontiac and Saturn seems weak and murky to me.

No solid rationale for having these brands.

Sorry, never wanting to buy a Chevrolet is a lame reason to keep a lame duck division going.

Change the Saturn name to Opel, please. Saturn has it's strongest lineup ever because it isn't Saturn.

What facinates me is that there did not seem that much foot dragging and angst when they destroyed Oldsmobile.

I've said it before, in the end it will very close to the following in North America:

Chevrolet

Buick

Cadillac

Market forces will force GM to finally get lean and mean and focused.

Edited July 21, 2008 by HarleyEarl

[gm4life]

I acutally thought Pontiac and Saturn had a pretty good reasons for being in GM. Good write up.

[HarleyEarl]

If you are going to use the high performance Pontiac image thing......for me if it is a Chevrolet high performance car or a Pontiac, no difference. Chevrolet has Corvette and Camaro and the SS and a rich history in performance cars, they can cover any high performance car in any category. Pontiac is not needed.

Well, Saturn has never been needed.

I love Pontiac's history, but the reality has to be separated from emotion. It's over for that brand. The market is saying so.

[balthazar]

The market said the same thing in '54, HE.

[HarleyEarl]

Very true.

Pontiac was a dull, frumpy car division then and it was turned around into one of my favorites.

I'm no expert in all this, but current situation may be different for Pontiac. I mean, just what

is it to be? So many brands have the performance thing going. I just can't see a reason for

Pontiac to exist other than for emotional reasons. If they could dump Oldsmobile so easily

I can't see the business case for Pontiac either. To me it's too close to Chevrolet in branding

image. I don't want them to go, but I see it as inevitable.

[balthazar]

I have/had far bigger problems with Olds' validity.

Sure- if you give performance models across the board to Chevy, naturally it undermines Pontiac. How about reversing that??

[Robert Hall]

I have/had far bigger problems with Olds' validity.

Sure- if you give performance models across the board to Chevy, naturally it undermines Pontiac. How about reversing that??

The thing is, Chevy has had a performance image for certain models for well over 40 years.... so I couldn't see them abandoning that..

[Oracle of Delphi]

Pontiac's future is least clear. GM is rethinking future models for its flashy performance-driven division in light of expensive gasoline and high fuel-economy rules. But the fact that Pontiac now shares its dealerships with Buick and GMC means the brand can contribute with as few as three or four models. Following Audi's path by offering style, fuel efficiency and all-wheel drive performance would work, but other options are under consideration.

Oh I think it's quite clear, TICK-TOCK!

[balthazar]

>>"The thing is, Chevy has had a performance image for certain models for well over 40 years.... so I couldn't see them abandoning that.. "<<

Oh, but it has in the past: in the early '70s, the SS's disappeared or were neutered, the Camaro went SB only and the Z-28 disappeared completely. Meanwhile, over at Pontiac the big displacements, and the only truely viable performance car, the T/A, continued, along with a few others.

IMO- that was only fitting and proper- Chevys are about basic transportation, Pontiacs are about performance (historically-speaking... y-you know; when Pontiac was all about establishing that... the 'late '50s thru the late-'70s).

As many have said- it's all about product.

Oh... I'm not discounting what PCS is so subtly hinting at; just pointing out it's all happened before, it could happen again. Again- not saying it will.

BTW- how many cars does ferrari or maserati sell in a year?

Edited July 21, 2008 by balthazar

[HarleyEarl]

I have/had far bigger problems with Olds' validity.

Sure- if you give performance models across the board to Chevy, naturally it undermines Pontiac. How about reversing that??

Ok...now I hadn't thought of that.

If they separated Corvette from Chevrolet and made the Camaro a Firebird....and on and on...you might have something there.

To me that's the only way Pontiac can have some validity. Have Chevrolet retreat from the hi performance arena and let Pontiac have it.

I think Chevrolet is fluid enough to do it. Chevrolet has been many things to many people.

[balthazar]

If Pontiac had, -say- 3 strong, unique performance models, Chevy could retain their semi-hokey SSs well & good- the Pontiacs would be different cars. As much as splitting the Corvette off makes sense on some level, I am far too much of a traditionalist here to support that. Leave it at Chevy. I know there's not enough money for this (thanks, saab!), but the Solstice, G8 /G8 SportTruck and a G6-ish segment car, all retuned to top-notch performance (even if exactly equaling Chevy's SSs), should easily hold their own in the B-P-G sales channel- because they'd be different cars for all the marketing particulars that matter. Oh, and advertize the Division!

[gm4life]

I really don't think Pontiac is going anywhere Custom. You own two Ponchos as do I, do you really want to see it go? Sounds like it. But seriously Pontiac could be a brand that is different from Chevrolet by offering sportier styling, ride and handling and models/trims in general. They do a somewhat good job of that now. Pontiac has a buisness case trust me, and a reason to stay in the line-up and a strong following of loyal owners. *cough* Getting rid of a brand that could be made into a performance/image line-up is stupid something that could be done with different styling and performance options/specs. The G8, and Solstice were a good start. I can make a case for Pontiac much easier than say Saab, Saturn or Hummer. So is Pontiac really going? And if so why not just take Buick with them, oh wait they are the "savior". I do like Pontiac but Chevrolet doesn't have the same image nor ever will that Pontiac has had with sportier and generally speaking better looking cars save for the G6 vs. new Malibu comparo (in sedan trim only). Some folks like myself are willing to pay a small price premium for a sportier vehicle like the case when I sided with a Torrent over and Equinox. I like the sportier handling and steering wheels and front end better, I think it is better looking and drives nicer. Some people see a value in paying a little more and getting something slightly sportier in the ride and handling department like the Equinox's FE1 vs the Torrent FE2. I am not blowing smoke up anyones a$$ I put my money where my mouth is and got the Pontiac over the Chevrolet. And I would do it again the same way, same thing with the Cobalt Sport Coupe vs the G5 GT Coupe. As for the G6 Sedan vs. new Malibu I would go Chevy no questions. But that is the beauty of choice. Ask me if I'd rather have a Solstice Targa or new Camaro RS with a V6 I'd say Camaro. Then ask if I would rather have a G8 GT or an Impala SS I'd go G8. If GM really did there homework and stuck some yes money into Pontiac for a new EP II or EP 1.5 G6 like the Malibu with totally different styling and a coupe/vert option as well with a stick shift they could have a huge winner. Same goes for the new Cruze I hope Pontiac getting a sportier and different looking verison of it as well. As for 2009 Aveo 5 vs. the 2009 Pontiac G3 5 the Pontiac is the winner hands down. As you can see I don't like all of Pontiac's products more than Chevy's just some. Even so it still makes a good buisness case, and the Olds killing was a disaster, plus I don't think GM can afford to buy out and shut down Pontiac. As for Saturn or Saab and Hummer than is a different story. The roots of Pontiac are deep and killing of a brand that needs a less work than say Saab or Hummer currently is stupid. Then again what will happen will happen. Getting ride of Pontiac at this point in my mind is stupid. I can justify Pontiac is so many ways it isn't even funny. As can I make a case for GMC staying too. Not Saab and certainly not Saturn. If any car brand goes it should be Saturn and give Pontiac some Opel/Holden models with a Malibu based sportier G6 and Cruze based G5 with totally different styling Pontiac just came back. That is what I am hoping to see!

Edited July 21, 2008 by gm4life

[Oracle of Delphi]

I really don't think Pontiac is going anywhere Custom. You own two Ponchos as do I, do you really want to see it go? Sounds like it. But seriously Pontiac could be a brand that is different from Chevrolet by offering sportier styling, ride and handling and models/trims in general. They do a somewhat good job of that now. Pontiac has a buisness case trust me, and a reason to stay in the line-up and a strong following of loyal owners. *cough* Getting rid of a brand that could be made into a performance/image line-up is stupid something that could be done with different styling and performance options/specs. The G8, and Solstice were a good start. I can make a case for Pontiac much easier than say Saab, Saturn or Hummer. So is Pontiac really going? And if so why not just take Buick with them, oh wait they are the "savior". I do like Pontiac but Chevrolet doesn't have the same image nor ever will that Pontiac has had with sportier and generally speaking better looking cars save for the G6 vs. new Malibu comparo (in sedan trim only). Some folks like myself are willing to pay a small price premium for a sportier vehicle like the case when I sided with a Torrent over and Equinox. I like the sportier handling and steering wheels and front end better, I think it is better looking and drives nicer. Some people see a value in paying a little more and getting something slightly sportier in the ride and handling department like the Equinox's FE1 vs the Torrent FE2. I am not blowing smoke up anyones a$$ I put my money where my mouth is and got the Pontiac over the Chevrolet. And I would do it again the same way, same thing with the Cobalt Sport Coupe vs the G5 GT Coupe. As for the G6 Sedan vs. new Malibu I would go Chevy no questions. But that is the beauty of choice. Ask me if I'd rather have a Solstice Targa or new Camaro RS with a V6 I'd say Camaro. Then ask if I would rather have a G8 GT or an Impala SS I'd go G8. If GM really did there homework and stuck some yes money into Pontiac for a new EP II or EP 1.5 G6 like the Malibu with totally different styling and a coupe/vert option as well with a stick shift they could have a huge winner. Same goes for the new Cruze I hope Pontiac getting a sportier and different looking verison of it as well. As for 2009 Aveo 5 vs. the 2009 Pontiac G3 5 the Pontiac is the winner hands down. As you can see I don't like all of Pontiac's products more than Chevy's just some. Even so it still makes a good buisness case, and the Olds killing was a disaster, plus I don't think GM can afford to buy out and shut down Pontiac. As for Saturn or Saab and Hummer than is a different story. The roots of Pontiac are deep and killing of a brand that needs a less work than say Saab or Hummer currently is stupid. Then again what will happen will happen. Getting ride of Pontiac at this point in my mind is stupid. I can justify Pontiac is so many ways it isn't even funny. As can I make a case for GMC staying too. Not Saab and certainly not Saturn. If any car brand goes it should be Saturn and give Pontiac some Opel/Holden models with a Malibu based sportier G6 and Cruze based G5 with totally different styling Pontiac just came back. That is what I am hoping to see!

You're in a dream world. Pontiac will be slowly starved of product and what product they do have will be rebadges. There are legal reasons it will be starved.

[gm4life]

Are you sure? And by the way I have hope for Pontiac and GM. If they are well done rebadges I don't care, so are they getting the axe? Or just going to have rebadges and not unqiue products, then again I consider the G8 unique. And the Solstice should have been until those &#036;h&#33;-heads at Saturn got there god-damned Sky.

[Blake Noble]

It's sort of brash for PCS to offer firm answers and absolutist predictions in a time of uncertainty. Then again, being brash and bold is what PCS seems to be about. And that's okay. That's part of his persona here. It's what makes him entertaining to me at least.

I'm saying to keep hope for the time being. GM hasn't let the lights go out yet.

But keep in mind nothing is guaranteed right now either.

That's all I'm going to say and no more. I've spoken my peace and counted to three.

Edited July 21, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[gm4life]

It's sort of brash for PCS to offer firm answers and predictions with absolution in a time of uncertainty. Then again, being brash and bold is what PCS seems to be about. And that's okay. That's part of his persona here. It's what makes him entertaining to me at least.

I'm saying to keep hope for the time being. GM hasn't let the lights go out yet.

But keep in mind nothing is guaranteed right now either.

That's all I'm going to say and no more. I've spoken my peace and counted to three.

I know what you are saying. But either way it would for me at least be painfully to even see Hummer my least favorite brand to go. So imagine what I think about Pontiac or GMC going. I am keeping the faith and praying nearly daily isn't that sick the praying for a multi-billion dollar corperation. (When I put it that way it sounds sick.) As for PCS I agree with you but the man is hard to tell if he is pissing with you or half serious. And yes he is amusing and one of my favorites.

[enzl]

Wow. 3 years and untold millions to come up with information that could have been formulated in 3 days and one or two threads here.

Why does GM PR even bother to release this type of information? It's an embarassment and runs counter to what they need to be doing right now (but so is allowing future product pics to leak all over the place---I guess one of the 20% losing their jobs didn't feel like following orders?)

To the posters above pining for the maintenance of all divisions: GM simply cannot afford it. They'll starve smaller divisions down to 2/3 models--unique or rebadges--doesn't matter. They can't develop all models needed and can't afford to buy out franchisees---that's simply the facts.

At least upper management now admits there's a severe problem (unfortunately, they take no blame and seem to proscribe "the same, only more" as a solution) which is a start, I guess.

[balthazar]

But that indeed could be the future of some of the divisions: 2 or 3 models only. No one believes or is advocating full lineups for all divisions anymore, obviously there's not enough money for that. But there should be enough for a few models for each. Pontiac will only 'starve' with 2-3 models if they are product-starved (ie: G5). Given solid, performance models of considerable uniqueness, I believe they would provide a ROI.

Maserati is part of a 7 brand conglomerate, only has 2 bodystyles of 1 car, with a ferrari-derived engine, only sold 2540 cars in 2007 and only turned a profit that year for the 1st time in 17 years. Yet no one is talking about shutting down the brand there, even tho the same dire sorts of circumstances are at play there. Pontiac could move into the same sort of product slot- higher caliber coupe/sedan, plus the Solstice- far less investment than ALSO including a Vibe/ Torrent/ G5/ G6/ Aztek. I would hope there was enough money to do that (plus advertise).

[Robert Hall]

But that indeed could be the future of some of the divisions: 2 or 3 models only.

Well, Buick is there now w/ 3 models.... I could see a 3 Pontiac line-- Solstice, G8, and G6 (keep the coupe and coupe/convertible, they are unique within the NA Epsys).

[smk4565]

It is too hard to differentiate these brands that are using cars on the same platform in the same price segment. Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn all sell midsize sedans in the $20-30k range. Saturn or Pontiac could go away, the G8 is the only Pontiac that isn't a rebadge of a car already sold in the US. Buick needs to go to $28-45k rice range if they stick around, the base LaCrosse/Invicta has to be nicer and more expensive than a Malibu LTZ. If Buick can't sell cars for over $30,000 then they should kill the brand, they don't need Buick to sell $23,000 LaCrosses, Chevy sells sedans for that price.

They are delusional if they think the upcoming 9-5 will compete with the 5-series or GS460. For one, the Lexus is a soft, comfort car, the BMW is built for performance, so which are they going for? Secondly, the 9-5 is Epsilon2, no front drive platform is going to compete with a 5-series.

[RBB]

Well, Buick is there now w/ 3 models.... I could see a 3 Pontiac line-- Solstice, G8, and G6 (keep the coupe and coupe/convertible, they are unique within the NA Epsys).

This is what I've been saying for a while now. Pontiac/Buick/GMC should be considered one 'brand'. Give Buick three or four good Lexus-lite models, Pontiac three or four good BMW-lite models, and GMC three or four good upscale Trucks/crossovers, and you've got yourself one well-rounded showroom that differentiates itself well from Chevy, Saturn, or Cadillac dealers.

-RBB

[Croc]

Guys, PCS is not the word of Og. He works for GM, somewhat high up it seems, and that's about it. We also know he has a bit of a vindictive streak, as evidenced by his replies concerning Chris Doane and others. We also know he feels wronged by Pontiac due to some internal politics a while back.

Knowing all this, it's pretty much obvious to me that PCS has an agenda to further his current career (nothing wrong with that) at the expense of Pontiac, with which he has some sour grapes (kinda immature).

PCS presents one viewpoint, and his posts reflect that viewpoint. GM has many viewpoints, hence its chronically-indecisive product planning. Let's not get carried away here. PCS has been wrong about things before, and he will be wrong about some in the future. He will also be right about some things.

But the levels of freakout around here lately are getting ridiculous.

Facts: Pontiac sells well; along with GMC and Buick it is the second largest sales division. Pontiac sells absurdly well in Canada. China saves Buick, what about Canada and Pontiac? It's a possibility. Finally, Saturn was given a product surge of well-regarded products, yet sales have not improved at all.

Again, nothing has been decided yet.

-------------

Nothing against you, PCS. I enjoy reading your posts.

[enzl]

Guys, PCS is not the word of Og. He works for GM, somewhat high up it seems, and that's about it. We also know he has a bit of a vindictive streak, as evidenced by his replies concerning Chris Doane and others. We also know he feels wronged by Pontiac due to some internal politics a while back.

Knowing all this, it's pretty much obvious to me that PCS has an agenda to further his current career (nothing wrong with that) at the expense of Pontiac, with which he has some sour grapes (kinda immature).

PCS presents one viewpoint, and his posts reflect that viewpoint. GM has many viewpoints, hence its chronically-indecisive product planning. Let's not get carried away here. PCS has been wrong about things before, and he will be wrong about some in the future. He will also be right about some things.

But the levels of freakout around here lately are getting ridiculous.

Facts: Pontiac sells well; along with GMC and Buick it is the second largest sales division. Pontiac sells absurdly well in Canada. China saves Buick, what about Canada and Pontiac? It's a possibility. Finally, Saturn was given a product surge of well-regarded products, yet sales have not improved at all.

Again, nothing has been decided yet.

-------------

Nothing against you, PCS. I enjoy reading your posts.

He may be wrong--but its only temporary---as the anticipated "turnaround" in 2010 is going to prove to be just as elusive as the 3 other 'plans' RW and the Funky Bunch have foisted on the BoD and GM's fans for the past few years.

How is it that management has failed to meet its ambiguous goals EVERY time, yet intelligent people (at C&G or the BoD) continue to believe hook line & sinker?

What is it that they say about the definition of insanity? Check back in 18 months--things will be just as bad, if not worse.

I can't believe the free ride RW is getting. There's a catastrophe just waiting to happen over at the tubes--the fact that noone is truly acting like its a crisis is astounding.

[wildcat]

Isn't the fact of the matter that some entity could buy GM at what amounts to chump change (wasn't it $5.73 billion the other day), very small money compared to Mattel or whoever? I suppose Toyota wouldn't dare buy GM and cut everything but Chevrolet and Cadillac... but if those brands are the great core assets that GM thinks they are, Toyota could have most everything and be most everywhere for comparatively little money!

Edited July 21, 2008 by wildcat

[regfootball]

wow, between enzl and pcs, if we added buickman into the mix, we'd have one hell of a writing team for a daily woe is me soap opera. it would have no end and no beginning, but a lot of diabolical plots along the way.

i just test drove an HHR SS over lunch, fun car! Its a shame we have to talk about GM needing to cut models when their product is coming around and we have SH-T like corollas kias and camrys on the market.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Guys, PCS is not the word of Og. He works for GM, somewhat high up it seems, and that's about it. We also know he has a bit of a vindictive streak, as evidenced by his replies concerning Chris Doane and others. We also know he feels wronged by Pontiac due to some internal politics a while back.

Knowing all this, it's pretty much obvious to me that PCS has an agenda to further his current career (nothing wrong with that) at the expense of Pontiac, with which he has some sour grapes (kinda immature).

PCS presents one viewpoint, and his posts reflect that viewpoint. GM has many viewpoints, hence its chronically-indecisive product planning. Let's not get carried away here. PCS has been wrong about things before, and he will be wrong about some in the future. He will also be right about some things.

But the levels of freakout around here lately are getting ridiculous.

Facts: Pontiac sells well; along with GMC and Buick it is the second largest sales division. Pontiac sells absurdly well in Canada. China saves Buick, what about Canada and Pontiac? It's a possibility. Finally, Saturn was given a product surge of well-regarded products, yet sales have not improved at all.

Again, nothing has been decided yet.

-------------

Nothing against you, PCS. I enjoy reading your posts.

No offense taken. As far as my response to Chris Doane, it was nothing against him personally, I just don't care for companies that make a profit from other companies hard work. I particularly don't care for their Spanish partner in Europe, but hey, that's my issue. Soon GM will be deploying some new technology thanks to my brother who works for the NRO, I can't wait for the 1st test results. It seems GM and the NRO have some common ground, after all GM did build the moon buggy for NASA way back when.

I don't really think I have been wrong about all that much, which is why you see people asking what I think more frequently these days. But my normal response most times is I don't kiss and tell.

Remember I'm just a man, like you, I put my pants on one leg at a time my Theta Chi brother.

As far as agendas go, we all have them, I'm no different than you.

Now that vindictive streak you say I have really hurt me, you make me sound like the GM Boogie Man, nothing could be further from the truth, I'm sugar and spice, and everything nice. :AH-HA_wink:

Nothing against you, Croc. I enjoy reading your posts.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[wildcat]

For Pontiac fans, especially those who feel Pontiac should be GM's performance car division, you might enjoy the current Pontiac homepage. Click here.

[balthazar]

>>"It is too hard to differentiate these brands that are using cars on the same platform in the same price segment. Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn all sell midsize sedans in the $20-30k range. Saturn or Pontiac could go away, the G8 is the only Pontiac that isn't a rebadge of a car already sold in the US. "<<

Is it also too hard for nissan/infinity, toyota/lexus, vw/audi/porsche, etc?

Buick & Pontiac share no "rebadges"- discontinuing Pontiac from Buick-GMC does not remove any sales-channel overlap. Since their cars in the same price range are different vehicles, comparing a Pontiac to a Buick should be no different than comparing a Pontiac to any other sedan in the same segment/price bracket.... ideally.

>>"Pontiac/Buick/GMC should be considered one 'brand'. Give Buick three or four good Lexus-lite models, Pontiac three or four good BMW-lite models, and GMC three or four good upscale Trucks/crossovers, and you've got yourself one well-rounded showroom that differentiates itself well from Chevy, Saturn, or Cadillac dealers."<<

I can see Buick & Pontiac with just 3 each. But I do agree with this.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Their take on Pontiac and Saturn seems weak and murky to me.

No solid rationale for having these brands.

Sorry, never wanting to buy a Chevrolet is a lame reason to keep a lame duck division going.

Change the Saturn name to Opel, please. Saturn has it's strongest lineup ever because it isn't Saturn.

What facinates me is that there did not seem that much foot dragging and angst when they destroyed Oldsmobile.

3 reasons...

1) They had saturn to replace it. (Personally, I think this might've been a plan all along)

2) GM has ALWAYS maintained at least 6 core divisions. To maintain less than 6 would be to admit defeat. It's a HUGE psychological barrier.

3) Olds was an experiment. (Ironic, since they were always the experimental technology brand anyway) GM had enough share and thought that it would maintain enough share that the Olds phase out wouldn't affect the company. Had the transition gone smoothly, and GM maintained those buyers, you'd probably see at least 2 other brands suffer the same fate by now. But the Olds phase out was HORRIBLE. GM lost loyal buyers, ditched share, spent millions and pissed off dealers and is STILL is dire straights... What was the point?

The Saab 9-4X crossover sporty SUV. Shown as a concept car at the 2008 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, the 9-4X shares its underpinnings with the replacement for the Cadillac SRX crossover. Both will come from an as yet unidentified North American assembly plant. The 9-4X gives Saab a dollar-zone vehicle to compete with hotshots like the BMW X3.

I hope GM has fabulous marketing up their sleeve... Because this plan could fail miserably. The 9-4X would be suited just as well as a Pontiac. That would give the buyer the choice of a volume 'performance' X-over or to step up to the premium SRX.

The new Saab 9-5 sport sedan and station wagon. Early glimpses suggest these cars are stunning, and Saab's performance-tuned all-wheel drive and line of powerful and fuel-efficient engines may give them the guts to compete with the BMW 5-series, Lexus GS460 and Infiniti M35.

But why?

Isn't that Cadillac's job?!!?!?!

The Saab 9-1. A compact hatchback that returns to Saab's roots. Based on the 9-X BioHybrid concept, the 9-1 presents a Swedish alternative to sporty compacts like the Audi A3 and Mini Cooper.

Again... Better served as a Pontiac.

GMC will get a small crossover SUV in a year or so when the Pontiac Torrent is replaced by a new model that gets the brand's precision-tool styling to differentiate it from the Chevrolet Equinox with which it shares parts. Other small, fuel-efficient vehicles in the works should keep GM's second-largest brand healthy as buyers turn away from the trucks it traditionally sold.

Give it Denali's and the Hummer HX and GMC will be fine.

Pontiac's future is least clear. GM is rethinking future models for its flashy performance-driven division in light of expensive gasoline and high fuel-economy rules. But the fact that Pontiac now shares its dealerships with Buick and GMC means the brand can contribute with as few as three or four models. Following Audi's path by offering style, fuel efficiency and all-wheel drive performance would work, but other options are under consideration.

Give Pontiac a G8 line (sedan and coupe/wagon/ST in whatever mix you want) Then give it a hot G6 sedan based on either an AWD version of Eps II, Alpha or Kappa. Leave the Solstice line on Kappa as the coupe counterpart. Leave the Vibe and give it a hot compact coupe and sedan (G4) from Delta II.

It's not rocket science... G8 has PLENTY of room to sell now that the Zeta Buick and Chevrolet sedans are dead and the wagon and ST will pick up would be truck and SUV buyers. Zeta is done, development-wise and will require very little money to keep on the road UNTIL GM gets out of it's cash bind. Not to mention, it's essentially a Holden. G6 can move upmarket from Malibu and stay well below Buick (Since the Invicta will likely move upmarket) and will not compete with Aura. (Since Aura is a car for yuppies and the Pontiac would be more for Lancer owners and wannabe Audi owners) Eps II is done as well, Kappa II is in the works and Pontiac could easily jump on Alpha. Solstice could take the majority of Kappa in volume and body styles. Saturn could get bent or do limited volume. And Delta II is 1) finished and 2) would be a HUGE seller and pull volume if done right.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If you are going to use the high performance Pontiac image thing......for me if it is a Chevrolet high performance car or a Pontiac, no difference. Chevrolet has Corvette and Camaro and the SS and a rich history in performance cars, they can cover any high performance car in any category. Pontiac is not needed.

Well, Saturn has never been needed.

I love Pontiac's history, but the reality has to be separated from emotion. It's over for that brand. The market is saying so.

The market is also saying "it's over for GM" as well.

Do you use this same flawed logic when talking of the whole corporation?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If Pontiac had, -say- 3 strong, unique performance models, Chevy could retain their semi-hokey SSs well & good- the Pontiacs would be different cars. As much as splitting the Corvette off makes sense on some level, I am far too much of a traditionalist here to support that. Leave it at Chevy. I know there's not enough money for this (thanks, saab!), but the Solstice, G8 /G8 SportTruck and a G6-ish segment car, all retuned to top-notch performance (even if exactly equaling Chevy's SSs), should easily hold their own in the B-P-G sales channel- because they'd be different cars for all the marketing particulars that matter. Oh, and advertize the Division!

+1

There are MANY more performance niches that Pontiac could fit into. GM isn't even in the performance game in the 2 largest markets on the planet... (compact & midsize cars -- as nice as the Cobalt SS is, it still doesn't do sh*t sales and image-wise when compared to the big dogs.)

If you want to use the "Chevy and Pontiac can't have competing performance cars" logic, then someone ought to let Cadillac know that Chevrolet is the ONLY performance division at GM, and likewise Saturn with their REDLINE badge.

[Newbiewar]

well with pontiac having Solstice, g8, (next gen) g6, and an alfa... i can see how they can survive... the alfa and G6 should be able to pull in 100k + per year, hopefully more along the lines of 175K, and the g8 can do 45k and the solstice some 20k... gives pontiac plenty to sell without the overhead of its own dealership...

buick needs something similar, a lucerne replacement, a lacross replacement, and a coupe and it would do fine as well, obviously not in number of sales, but by profit and price point...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You're in a dream world. Pontiac will be slowly starved of product and what product they do have will be rebadges. There are legal reasons it will be starved.

I call bullsh*t.

The rebadges are of volume products.. Minimal investment + volume = profit.

GM wil restore the brand to profitability (which shouldn't be hard since it's still kicking the living &#036;h&#33; out of the ever-so-profitable (lol) Saturn "experience" saleswise) or essentially put it on the back burner and see what happens. If the brand sinks, then sure it will probably go but if it swims, they'll start pushing more money into the brand.

It makes no logical sense for GM to just "starve" it's second best selling passenger car division when 1) that's what's selling now, 2) the division requires minimal investment and 3) The company is literally in a fight for it's life for share.

Edited July 22, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's sort of brash for PCS to offer firm answers and absolutist predictions in a time of uncertainty. Then again, being brash and bold is what PCS seems to be about. And that's okay. That's part of his persona here. It's what makes him entertaining to me at least.

I'm saying to keep hope for the time being. GM hasn't let the lights go out yet.

But keep in mind nothing is guaranteed right now either.

That's all I'm going to say and no more. I've spoken my peace and counted to three.

He's brash because he can afford to take that risk and that means that in the grand scheme of things, his opinion isn't sh*t to GM management. He's a mid-level GM guy that enjoys screwing with C&G fans.

Could Pontiac die? absolutley! And that would prove him right and reinforce his 'knowledge of the inside' But it's just the reality of the market and the situation GM is in.

But just like half of the stuff he's told us here, it could just 'drop off of the radar and be forgotten about' because he only smears his "knowledge" in our faces, not his failure to predict the market/outcome of decisions.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

To the posters above pining for the maintenance of all divisions: GM simply cannot afford it. They'll starve smaller divisions down to 2/3 models--unique or rebadges--doesn't matter. They can't develop all models needed and can't afford to buy out franchisees---that's simply the facts.

My point exactly...

It's not rocket science... But at the same time, if done right, it will allow GM to weather the storm WITHOUT destroying any more divisions.

On the back side of this "downslide" GM might be able to continue rebuilding the divisions.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

But that indeed could be the future of some of the divisions: 2 or 3 models only. No one believes or is advocating full lineups for all divisions anymore, obviously there's not enough money for that. But there should be enough for a few models for each. Pontiac will only 'starve' with 2-3 models if they are product-starved (ie: G5). Given solid, performance models of considerable uniqueness, I believe they would provide a ROI.

Which boils right back down to what UNCLE BOB said... GM will focus on the profitability of brands INSTEAD of closing them.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't really think I have been wrong about all that much, which is why you see people asking what I think more frequently these days. But my normal response most times is I don't kiss and tell.

The ONLY reason people ask you about anything is because you parade around the fact that you work for GM. At C&G, we have had FAR better placed and more accurate "insiders" that got just as much ass kissing as you get.

Some of us, like myself, would rather get reliable info though instead of a half-assed confirmation when actual GM higher ups leak ACTUAL news.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The ONLY reason people ask you about anything is because you parade around the fact that you work for GM. At C&G, we have had FAR better placed and more accurate "insiders" that got just as much ass kissing as you get.

Some of us, like myself, would rather get reliable info though instead of a half-assed confirmation when actual GM higher ups leak ACTUAL news.

I think you're my biggest fan! Your mouth says NO, but your eyes say, YES, YES, YES! :rotflmao:

[wildcat]

El Ultimo Mensaje De Borger, Adios Amigos!

That's a recent change.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That's a recent change.

Sí, las cosas cambian constantemente!

[Camino LS6]

I'm not even going to step into this one.

[longtooth]

wow, between enzl and pcs, if we added buickman into the mix, we'd have one hell of a writing team for a daily woe is me soap opera. it would have no end and no beginning, but a lot of diabolical plots along the way.

i just test drove an HHR SS over lunch, fun car! Its a shame we have to talk about GM needing to cut models when their product is coming around and we have SH-T like corollas kias and camrys on the market.

As 'good' as those "corollas kias and camrys" are perceived to be by their constituencies, it demonstrates to a degree the actual level of the lowest common denominator that GM needs to pander to. It somewhat explains the success of homogenized bits of Americana like Disneyworld, "High School Musical(s)" 1 thru 15, Hannah Montana, the entire 'Rap Music'-genre, "Step Up 2-The Streets", Wal*Mart etc... and ad nauseum. We're Americans damn it. Cheap chatzkes enthrall the sh*t out of us as we clap each other on the back for being possessed of a singular discernment. America where crap is king.

This also explains the relative success of Corvette, which slices through traffic as a shark terrorizes stunned bait-fish. Well maintained 6 year-old WS6 Trans Ams and Camaros can produce a similar effect. They're unique, set against the bland vanilla backdrop of a dumbed-down nation. America, love it or market to it.

[ehaase]

I think you're my biggest fan! Your mouth says NO, but your eyes say, YES, YES, YES! :rotflmao:

I imagine that PCS has more fans here than any other current poster. Reading PCS' posts is a highlight of the day.

[enzl]

wow, between enzl and pcs, if we added buickman into the mix, we'd have one hell of a writing team for a daily woe is me soap opera. it would have no end and no beginning, but a lot of diabolical plots along the way.

i just test drove an HHR SS over lunch, fun car! Its a shame we have to talk about GM needing to cut models when their product is coming around and we have SH-T like corollas kias and camrys on the market.

I love a snarky remark as much as the next guy, but....are you really impressed by the findings of this GM sponsored boondoggle? What impressive information has been provided? Coincidentally, this news and the Rickster's "let's slash some more costs" routine are more of the same from GM.

You convinced that more of the same is a good idea for GM right now? What are the odds of success for these ideas when we could have proposed them (and a few of us have) years ago with just a few minutes of thought?

I'm sincerely scared for GM, its workers, its fans & anyone tied to the auto industry right now. You should be too, based on the intellectual laziness and poor thinking going on at GM.

[wildcat]

Sí, las cosas cambian constantemente!

Uh... why yes, I do enjoy Desi Arnaz' singing!

[wildcat]

I imagine that PCS has more fans here than any other current poster. Reading PCS' posts is a highlight of the day.

His stock is up 6.73% in just the last hour!

P.S. - Thanks to whomever added all the new smilies; I just have to find reasons to use them.

[Lamar]

Sí, las cosas cambian constantemente!

Tu uso del español no me impresiona.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I imagine that PCS has more fans here than any other current poster. Reading PCS' posts is a highlight of the day.

Unlike PCS, some of us aren't here to gain fans.

[Croc]

No offense taken. As far as my response to Chris Doane, it was nothing against him personally, I just don't care for companies that make a profit from other companies hard work. I particularly don't care for their Spanish partner in Europe, but hey, that's my issue. Soon GM will be deploying some new technology thanks to my brother who works for the NRO, I can't wait for the 1st test results. It seems GM and the NRO have some common ground, after all GM did build the moon buggy for NASA way back when.

You don't have to defend yourself to me.

I don't really think I have been wrong about all that much, which is why you see people asking what I think more frequently these days. But my normal response most times is I don't kiss and tell.

Not going for specifics here. You've been right about things and wrong, but my main point is that yours is not the word of Og.

Remember I'm just a man, like you, I put my pants on one leg at a time my Theta Chi brother.

As far as agendas go, we all have them, I'm no different than you.

Yes...Pretty much the point of my post...

Now that vindictive streak you say I have really hurt me, you make me sound like the GM Boogie Man, nothing could be further from the truth, I'm sugar and spice, and everything nice. :AH-HA_wink:

Just an observation made from your postings.

Nothing against you, Croc. I enjoy reading your posts.

Why thank you, I enjoy them myself. :AH-HA_wink: