2010 Chevrolet Camaro revealed!

[A Horse With No Name]

Love 'em or hate 'em the '70 'Cuda and Challenger were nothing

more than blatant styling rip-offs of the '69 Camaro & Firebird TA

from every angle. The hooded nose, recessed headlights, rear

1/4 kickup, greenhouse!!! the Cuda and Challenger of 1969 have

ZERO in common with the '70s, the lack of continuity was Mopar's

fault, they just gave up and decided to blatantly copy the F-body's

winning styling DNA.

Does this mean the '70-'72 E-body Mopars suck? Hardly.

But they are VERY low on the originality scale, ad without the HEMI

and legendary 440 they'd be worth pennies on the dollar right now.

Like I've said before, all of the carmakers "copy" each other to a certain level.

Look at the Nissan Altima and the Saturn Ion, previously discussed on these boards.

Or look at a 65 GTO, 65 Sport Fury, and a 66 Fairlane.

To me, I have to give credit where credit is due, and Mopar did a great job with some of its cars in the muscle car era.

Now if we are talking about a 77 Cordoba vs. a 77 Monte Carlo vs. a 77 Granada, then GM wins hands down.

Which is what I love so much about GM. While there are cars by other makers in other eras I like, GM pretty much has kick ass cool cars in every size and era. I can pretty much count on my fingers, or maybe my fingers and toes, the cars of each other maker I like. With GM, it is a several hundred page volume of cool stuff, from 1950's Bonnevilles to 1940's Chevy Trucks to 1930's LaSalles to 1920's Buick Touring cars to Camaro's to Impalas to Vettes to the CTS to the HHR to The SSR to the Solstice to the Buick 225 to...you get the idea.

No one has built more cool, unique cars ever than GM. Ever.

Chris

[CMG]

Love 'em or hate 'em the '70 'Cuda and Challenger were nothing

more than blatant styling rip-offs of the '69 Camaro & Firebird TA

from every angle. The hooded nose, recessed headlights, rear

1/4 kickup, greenhouse!!! the Cuda and Challenger of 1969 have

ZERO in common with the '70s, the lack of continuity was Mopar's

fault, they just gave up and decided to blatantly copy the F-body's

winning styling DNA.

Does this mean the '70-'72 E-body Mopars suck? Hardly.

But they are VERY low on the originality scale, ad without the HEMI

and legendary 440 they'd be worth pennies on the dollar right now.

LOL

The 69 Cuda was a fastback, notchback or convertible A body car and had nothing to do with the E bodies of 1970.

The 1969 Challenger never existed as was revealed above.

Neither the Cuda or the Challenger could be claimed to have been copied from the Firebird, neither looks like it in any way shape or form.

The Cuda and Challenger in 1970 have similar styling to a 1969 Camaro, but as I find the 1969 Camaro as well as the Cuda/Challenger not bad looking cars, I think it's safe to say the 1969 Camaro could easily have had an influence on the MoPars of the day. I have no idea of knowing for sure, but I would guess the same as you.

If they are "low on the originality scale" but sell for huge money right now it sure makes me wonder why the 1969 Camaro with it's famed engines don't seem to draw THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY....?

lol

[CMG]

Yes, I don't think they had any sheetmetal in common. Shared the E-body platform, but had a lot of differences. From what I've read, the E-body platform (as far as suspension, etc) had a lot in common with the B-bodies (Charger, Road Runner, Coronet, etc).

Same front substructure, amnog other things...

[CMG]

No one has built more cool, unique cars ever than GM. Ever.

Chris

Well, the only reason I truly love old MoPars would be their "cool unique" cars and trucks. Add WEIRD to that as well, weird cars and weird options.

I personally thing as far as UNIQUE goes, MoPar has always, and still does take the crown.

Chevys have always been more POPULAR styled cars, but unique isn't the right word IMO. The Superbird/Daytonas were unique. They didn't SELL, but they were UNIQUE!

:AH-HA_wink:

LOL

[Camino LS6]

GM built planty of unique car during the era (ZL-1/COPO Camaros etc.) that now bring gobs of cash at auctions. But Chrysler went beyond unique straight into "oddball" with weird combinations, one-year cars, one-of six examples, and so forth. It was as if there were no rules on Chrysler's assembly lines - if someone ordered it, they would build it.

[CMG]

GM built planty of unique car during the era (ZL-1/COPO Camaros etc.) that now bring gobs of cash at auctions. But Chrysler went beyond unique straight into "oddball" with weird combinations, one-year cars, one-of six examples, and so forth. It was as if there were no rules on Chrysler's assembly lines - if someone ordered it, they would build it.

I agree.

I think Mopars had the weirdest wildest stuff overall.

I also think some mainstream Chevys were pretty unique- the 1963 Corvette comes to mind. Nothing like it at all, completely impressive car for the time and while it wasn't rare it was unique among cars at the time.

Ford built some unique stuff as well.

I'm a DOMESTIC lover, but when it comes to oddball unique stuff, I tip my hat to the MoPars, it's why I love them!

[Intrepidation]

Sigh

All this talk of `69 and `70 `Cudas makes me wish I could drive the ones in my garage, but that'll never happen.

[dwightlooi]

beautiful inside and out...except for that steering wheel.

---

Yes, the "Clinque Soapbox" B6 Audi A4/S4 is the most elegant Audi past and present. It is the last of the clean, uncluttered Audi before Walter De Silva screwed the stylings up with the Darth Vader Grille, Knight's Shield steering wheel hubs, miss aligned HVAC vents and multi-colored displays.

Unfortunately, the 170hp 20v 1.8T and 220hp 30v 3.0 V6 engines were rather underpowered for a heavy car (3600 lbs for the V6) like the A4 and performance was one full step behind Bimmer 3-series of the same period in the same price catergory. If you want 330 performance you'll need to pony up for the nose heavy 340hp V8 S4.

This generation also saw the peak in perceived interior quality for Audis -- assembly lines so tight you can't stick a hair through, not one undamped switch or button, ot one exposed molding line, not one glossy piece of plastic, not one piece of fake trim and not one non-soft touch surface. The current generation actually took half a step backwards in cabin finishings. You can splurge on a $100K M-B S-class and not find a better finished interior. I truly believe that GM should buy a few dozen of these cars used and force their interior engineers to drive them to ingrain a high level of quality standards into their heads. The Malibu is a great leap forward, but it can be better... much, much, better.

[Sixty8panther]

Yeah I'm a dope for saying '69 Challeger when I should have

said the '69 Dodge lineup... The Dart, Charger, Coronet

& Super Bee have nothing in common with the '70 Challenger

which is fine except for the fact that both these new for 1970

pony/muscle cars, Plymouth (Barra)'Cuda & Challenger had

styling that made them look very much like plus-sized, extra

wide '69 Camaros.

If the '67 Camaro borrowed from the Mustang it was 10%

If I was to throw out a persentage for the Mopar E-bodys

borrowing from the '67-'69 F-bodys, I'd honestly say 66.6%

The Mustang was squared off, had hard corners & hard lines,

the greenhouse on the hardtop notchback was formal and the

car was quite slab-sided except for the huge non-functional

scoop. The headlights were like sideways sugar-scoops, and

the grille protruded forward to dominate the busy nose, the

concave tail light panel was also very upright and blockish.

NOw the '67 F-bodys?

They had the Mustang's proportions, except +size a bit, but the

E-N-T-I-R-E design language profile, nose, tail lights panel,

greenhouse & reoccurring styling theme was completely diffrent.

The '67 Camaro/Firebird's clean, futuristic & simple design did

not have a squarish notchback greenhouse or a fastback, it was

a hybrid, hardtop with a laid back rear window, it had a sculpted

look to it, it flowed like liquid, one of the things it had that was

revolutionary for it's day was a very drastic tumble-home and

big, sexy, catlikt kickup over the rear 1/4s...

In profile from a distance, say as a silhouette, you could def.

confuse and E-body Mopar to be a GM F-body.

BUt never would you see a Mustang & hesitate to think it might

be an F-body of any generation. If I had the time I could tear

that argument to shreds.

----

To all you "Vanahisng Point" loving Challenger lovers....

Did you know the final scene of the car crashing inot a bulldozer

and exploding was a '67 Camaro. But the director thought that

(I agree) at that speed a white '1967 Camaro would make a

good dopleganger for a 1971 Challeger. Even I was fooled

and had to slow down the DVD to see that, holoy cow, that's NOT

a Challeger at all!

Put that in you pipe and smoke it!

[Robert Hall]

Ultimately, arguing trivia about cars from nearly 40 years ago is pointless and futile. By the way, the Challenger in Vanishing Point is a '70.

[A Horse With No Name]

Well, the only reason I truly love old MoPars would be their "cool unique" cars and trucks. Add WEIRD to that as well, weird cars and weird options.

I personally thing as far as UNIQUE goes, MoPar has always, and still does take the crown.

Chevys have always been more POPULAR styled cars, but unique isn't the right word IMO. The Superbird/Daytonas were unique. They didn't SELL, but they were UNIQUE!

:AH-HA_wink:

LOL

I'm not denying that Chrysler has built some really cool stuff. It's just that GM has built more really cool stuff, IMHO.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

GM built planty of unique car during the era (ZL-1/COPO Camaros etc.) that now bring gobs of cash at auctions. But Chrysler went beyond unique straight into "oddball" with weird combinations, one-year cars, one-of six examples, and so forth. It was as if there were no rules on Chrysler's assembly lines - if someone ordered it, they would build it.

Which is why it is so much fun going to the Mopar Nats here in Columbus.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Ultimately, arguing trivia about cars from nearly 40 years ago is pointless and futile. By the way, the Challenger in Vanishing Point is a '70.

It's kind of like sexual fantasy about someone you haven't talked to since you were in high school. It's mindless and pointless but it can make you feel better for reasons that are not rational.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Yeah I'm a dope for saying '69 Challeger when I should have

said the '69 Dodge lineup... The Dart, Charger, Coronet

& Super Bee have nothing in common with the '70 Challenger

which is fine except for the fact that both these new for 1970

pony/muscle cars, Plymouth (Barra)'Cuda & Challenger had

styling that made them look very much like plus-sized, extra

wide '69 Camaros.

If the '67 Camaro borrowed from the Mustang it was 10%

If I was to throw out a persentage for the Mopar E-bodys

borrowing from the '67-'69 F-bodys, I'd honestly say 66.6%

The Mustang was squared off, had hard corners & hard lines,

the greenhouse on the hardtop notchback was formal and the

car was quite slab-sided except for the huge non-functional

scoop. The headlights were like sideways sugar-scoops, and

the grille protruded forward to dominate the busy nose, the

concave tail light panel was also very upright and blockish.

NOw the '67 F-bodys?

They had the Mustang's proportions, except +size a bit, but the

E-N-T-I-R-E design language profile, nose, tail lights panel,

greenhouse & reoccurring styling theme was completely diffrent.

The '67 Camaro/Firebird's clean, futuristic & simple design did

not have a squarish notchback greenhouse or a fastback, it was

a hybrid, hardtop with a laid back rear window, it had a sculpted

look to it, it flowed like liquid, one of the things it had that was

revolutionary for it's day was a very drastic tumble-home and

big, sexy, catlikt kickup over the rear 1/4s...

In profile from a distance, say as a silhouette, you could def.

confuse and E-body Mopar to be a GM F-body.

BUt never would you see a Mustang & hesitate to think it might

be an F-body of any generation. If I had the time I could tear

that argument to shreds.

----

To all you "Vanahisng Point" loving Challenger lovers....

Did you know the final scene of the car crashing inot a bulldozer

and exploding was a '67 Camaro. But the director thought that

(I agree) at that speed a white '1967 Camaro would make a

good dopleganger for a 1971 Challeger. Even I was fooled

and had to slow down the DVD to see that, holoy cow, that's NOT

a Challeger at all!

Put that in you pipe and smoke it!

Ultimately, if you were a little more open to them, I think that you would enjoy the 70-74 E-Bodies. It took me awhile to warm up to them, and in some ways I still would rather have a Mustang or a Camaro, but they are cool cars.

The B-5 Blue 70 Challenger S/E I saw at last nights car show was wonderful!

Chris

[Robert Hall]

It's kind of like sexual fantasy about someone you haven't talked to since you were in high school. It's mindless and pointless but it can make you feel better for reasons that are not rational.

Chris

True enough... speaking of HS, I went to my 20th reunion last weekend..it was interesting to see how the hotties from 1988 look now.. some are not so hot, some are MILFs and DMILFs..

[LosAngeles]

It's kind of like sexual fantasy about someone you haven't talked to since you were in high school. It's mindless and pointless but it can make you feel better for reasons that are not rational.

Kinda like political talk, eh?

Disclaimer: I am simply clowning, folks. Be easy.

[CMG]

I'm not denying that Chrysler has built some really cool stuff. It's just that GM has built more really cool stuff, IMHO.

Chris

I think the opposite way, and by a large margin, since the early 1930's Chrysler Airflow right up until today. No comparison really.

Chevy has had more POPULAR looking cars over the years, but for UNIQUE stuff the MoPars were just nuts.

[A Horse With No Name]

I think the opposite way, and by a large margin, since the early 1930's Chrysler Airflow right up until today. No comparison really.

Chevy has had more POPULAR looking cars over the years, but for UNIQUE stuff the MoPars were just nuts.

We may be closer than you think. I once almost bought an airflow, and I am leaving the Library right now with a book on the history of Chrysler.

Chris

[CMG]

Yeah I'm a dope for saying '69 Challeger when I should have

said the '69 Dodge lineup... The Dart, Charger, Coronet

& Super Bee have nothing in common with the '70 Challenger

which is fine except for the fact that both these new for 1970

pony/muscle cars, Plymouth (Barra)'Cuda & Challenger had

styling that made them look very much like plus-sized, extra

wide '69 Camaros.

ACTUALLY... the 1969 B bodies (Charger, Coronet, SuperBee etc) DID have things in common with the 1970 Challenger. The entire front substructure, suspension etc...

If the '67 Camaro borrowed from the Mustang it was 10%

If I was to throw out a persentage for the Mopar E-bodys

borrowing from the '67-'69 F-bodys, I'd honestly say 66.6%

I have seen people deny the HHR is a "copy" of the PTCruiser. I have seen people say the 1968 Charger was a copy of the Corvette. Everybody's perceptions will be different.

Is the present day Corvette's front end COPIED from the Viper?

(10 % or 66.6 % ? :AH-HA_wink: )

[A Horse With No Name]

If the B-Bodies are copies I'm kinda glad MOPAR did it...they are cool cars!

Chris

[CMG]

If the B-Bodies are copies I'm kinda glad MOPAR did it...they are cool cars!

Chris

Egads!!!!!!

Now the B-bodies were copies too?

Musta been a Fairlane copy I guess.......

:AH-HA_wink:

LOL

[Robert Hall]

Egads!!!!!!

Now the B-bodies were copies too?

Musta been a Fairlane copy I guess.......

:AH-HA_wink:

LOL

Yeah, I love the old Mopies...I like the '65 Satellite and Coronet hts also...they had a great roofline. Mopars are kind of the fundamental muscle cars to me, from the 426 wedges to the Hemis and 440 Magnums...they always had a badass quality to them.

For vintage GMs, I love the land yachts and luxury cars more than the muscle cars, I think....perfection in the '63 Rivi, '66 Rivi, '71 Rivi, '67 Eldorado, '66 Toronado, '62-64 Grand Prix, '69-72 Grand Prix, etc...

Edited July 27, 2008 by moltar

[CMG]

Yeah, I love the old Mopies...I like the '65 Satellite and Coronet hts also...they had a great roofline. Mopars are kind of the fundamental muscle cars to me, from the 426 wedges to the Hemis and 440 Magnums...they always had a badass quality to them.

For vintage GMs, I love the land yachts and luxury cars more than the muscle cars, I think....perfection in the '63 Rivi, '66 Rivi, '71 Rivi, '67 Eldorado, '66 Toronado, '62-64 Grand Prix, '69-71 Grand Prix, etc...

See how you pick Pontiacs and Buicks, I'm sorta the same way with GM.

I liked the Chevys because they were cheap, popular etc... but I liked the Pontiacs and Buicks because to ME they seemed to have more character.

I love the old GPs, and I like the boattail Rivs too, overlooked cars in many circles IMO.

[Robert Hall]

See how you pick Pontiacs and Buicks, I'm sorta the same way with GM.

I liked the Chevys because they were cheap, popular etc... but I liked the Pontiacs and Buicks because to ME they seemed to have more character.

I love the old GPs, and I like the boattail Rivs too, overlooked cars in many circles IMO.

Yeah, I esp. like the boattails and the '71-72 GP...fantastically sculptured cars, IMHO.

[A Horse With No Name]

Yeah, I love the old Mopies...I like the '65 Satellite and Coronet hts also...they had a great roofline. Mopars are kind of the fundamental muscle cars to me, from the 426 wedges to the Hemis and 440 Magnums...they always had a badass quality to them.

For vintage GMs, I love the land yachts and luxury cars more than the muscle cars, I think....perfection in the '63 Rivi, '66 Rivi, '71 Rivi, '67 Eldorado, '66 Toronado, '62-64 Grand Prix, '69-72 Grand Prix, etc...

Those Grand Prix cars were AMAZING! When I was a teenager a junkyard had 4 of the 62-64 cars, one of them with a tri power. They wouldn't sell any of them, or many part off of them, but they were complete right down to the 8 lug wheels.

I knew a guy with a 71 Grand Prix who rebuilt it to top flight standards with all N.O.S. parts. He sunk a fortune into the car, but it was beautiful, all black.

There are a few local Toranado's running around, I always like looking out from the Miata at them in traffic.

When I was younger I knew a guy with a 65 Sport Fury just like the Indy pace car (White on blue) that was pristine. Wonderful, wonderful car. Guy was about 17 years old and just CRAZY about MOPARS. He babied that 65, which was unusual for a teenager.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Yeah, I esp. like the boattails and the '71-72 GP...fantastically sculptured cars, IMHO.

Which is what I was talking about when I said GM had so many cool, unique cars in their past.

Chris