Major Camaro Announcement

[smk4565]

Mustang V6 manual is 3300 pounds, or 3345 with auto. The 3.5 liter V6 is lighter than the old Explorer V6 the Mustang has now, even it if goes up, they should keep it to 3400 pounds. The manual Camaro SS probably would outrun it, but the SS automatic is 3913 pounds and has 400 hp, 50 hp is probably not enough to make up for 513 pounds of weight.

A 335i (which is heavier than a Mustang) is faster than a G8 GT despite the G8 having 60 more hp and 90 more lb-ft. The Zeta platform is just too heavy. Which is a shame, because the Camaro is a good looking car.

[Camino LS6]

Mustang V6 manual is 3300 pounds, or 3345 with auto. The 3.5 liter V6 is lighter than the old Explorer V6 the Mustang has now, even it if goes up, they should keep it to 3400 pounds. The manual Camaro SS probably would outrun it, but the SS automatic is 3913 pounds and has 400 hp, 50 hp is probably not enough to make up for 513 pounds of weight.

A 335i (which is heavier than a Mustang) is faster than a G8 GT despite the G8 having 60 more hp and 90 more lb-ft. The Zeta platform is just too heavy. Which is a shame, because the Camaro is a good looking car.

Trust me on this, Camaro will not be outdone by Mustang.

[smk4565]

The 2002 Camaro with a V8 was 3439 pounds, what happened with the new one?

I do like that a V6 can make the same horsepower as the V8s in the 90s Camaros, but the gas mileage is nothing special on either engine.

[Camino LS6]

The 2002 Camaro with a V8 was 3439 pounds, what happened with the new one?

I do like that a V6 can make the same horsepower as the V8s in the 90s Camaros, but the gas mileage is nothing special on either engine.

First, it has a real structure that the '02 could only dream of, IRS, airbags all over and a host of weight-adding new regs to comply with.

Look at the V6 mileage and HP vs. V6 Challenger and Mustang mileage and HP: advantage Camaro.

[CMG]

Look at the V6 mileage and HP vs. V6 Challenger and Mustang mileage and HP: advantage Camaro.

By the time the Camaro debuts the Challenger should have the new Phoenix V6 should it not?

I think you will be VERY surprised........

:AH-HA_wink:

[Northstar]

The 2002 Camaro with a V8 was 3439 pounds, what happened with the new one?

I do like that a V6 can make the same horsepower as the V8s in the 90s Camaros, but the gas mileage is nothing special on either engine.

What happened with the new one? 6 years of new safety regs, tons of airbags, IRS, stiffer structure. 400lbs is not that much of an increase. The 04 Mustang weighed about 200lbs less than the 05. If the 2010 weighs about 200lbs more, it will be a 3500lb V6, add IRS and it is right there with the Camaro.

[Northstar]

By the time the Camaro debuts the Challenger should have the new Phoenix V6 should it not?

I think you will be VERY surprised........

:AH-HA_wink:

Please explain what this Phoenix V6 is?

[Satty]

By the time the Camaro hits streets, Dodge may have a nuclear powered, flying Challenger that weighs 2700 pounds.

[CMG]

Please explain what this Phoenix V6 is?

I think it comes out in 2010, it's VVT and MDS, it's better on gas by 5% or so but up on power considerably and very refined is what the buzz is.....

I'll wait and see, but it sure sounds promising for a 6 banger.

[CMG]

By the time the Camaro hits streets, Dodge may have a nuclear powered, flying Challenger that weighs 2700 pounds.

Are you posting all silly again Satty!

Where's yer Mommy?

haha

[Satty]

Just saying, this is taking GM forever.

[CMG]

SS auto is over 3900lbs.

The Mustang will be the lightweight of the three by a fair margin, but it also pays a price for the lighter weight.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, and those who think refined cars with comfort features don't come with a weight penalty better advise us car guys how they expect to explain that.....

:AH-HA_wink:

[smk4565]

The Challenger is huge. It is like 300C or Lexus LS460 size. Why make a 2 door car that is supposed to be sporty that big. It will only be good in a straight line and possibly self destruct midway through the first corner it encounters. Anything from Chrysler has a bad interior, and most of their cars get poor mileage. The Camaro will slaughter any Chrysler product (aside from the Viper) , but that isn't hard to do.

Let's not forget there is more out there than Ford, Chevy, Dodge either. 350Z and RX-8 can compete with the V6 Camaro, and if the V8 Camaro is pricey, it could run into G37 territory.

[Northstar]

Mustang V6 manual is 3300 pounds, or 3345 with auto. The 3.5 liter V6 is lighter than the old Explorer V6 the Mustang has now, even it if goes up, they should keep it to 3400 pounds. The manual Camaro SS probably would outrun it, but the SS automatic is 3913 pounds and has 400 hp, 50 hp is probably not enough to make up for 513 pounds of weight.

A 335i (which is heavier than a Mustang) is faster than a G8 GT despite the G8 having 60 more hp and 90 more lb-ft. The Zeta platform is just too heavy. Which is a shame, because the Camaro is a good looking car.

So if the Mustang has 340hp and weighs 3400lbs, and the Camaro w/auto has 400hp and 4000lbs, that's the same power to weight ratio. I'd still bet on the Camaro winning, plus I don't see the Mustang being that light if it has turbos and IRS.

Regardless of 0-60, quarter mile, and whatnot, the Camaro's suspension is far superior to the Mustang's and thus should have no problem handling better.

[Robert Hall]

The Challenger is huge. It is like 300C or Lexus LS460 size. Why make a 2 door car that is supposed to be sporty that big. It will only be good in a straight line and possibly self destruct midway through the first corner it encounters.

Not really...Motor Trend recently tested a Challenger on the best roads in the world and reported that it handled quite nicely..

[Camino LS6]

The "shootout" magazine articles will be lots of fun!

I may actually have to buy one for the first time in ages.

[CMG]

The Challenger is huge. It is like 300C or Lexus LS460 size. Why make a 2 door car that is supposed to be sporty that big. It will only be good in a straight line and possibly self destruct midway through the first corner it encounters. Anything from Chrysler has a bad interior, and most of their cars get poor mileage. The Camaro will slaughter any Chrysler product (aside from the Viper) , but that isn't hard to do.

Let's not forget there is more out there than Ford, Chevy, Dodge either. 350Z and RX-8 can compete with the V6 Camaro, and if the V8 Camaro is pricey, it could run into G37 territory.

You've been wrong before, you are wrong now, and you will be wrong again.

The Challenger and the Camaro will be VERY similar in weight, size, and performance.

The Challenger has VERY good handling, it's based on the LX platform, go look at the GTO vs 300 vs Caddy comparo that Motor Trend did. The 300 four door sedan put a whoopin on the 400hp GTO, so did the heavy Caddy.

Don't believe me? LOOK IT UP!

LOL

The brand blindness stuff really doesn't matter, but if that's your bag....

[CMG]

The "shootout" magazine articles will be lots of fun!

I may actually have to buy one for the first time in ages.

I agree!

I bet the performance numbers will all be in the same neighbourhood, but I also bet the driver impressions for the Camaro and Challenger are better. More room, more comfort, more refinement. IMO anyways.

Not to take anything away from the Mustang, because it's awesome bang for the buck and nice styling, but it will be what it will be, I'm sure.

[Northstar]

You've been wrong before, you are wrong now, and you will be wrong again.

The Challenger and the Camaro will be VERY similar in weight, size, and performance.

The Challenger has VERY good handling, it's based on the LX platform, go look at the GTO vs 300 vs Caddy comparo that Motor Trend did. The 300 four door sedan put a whoopin on the 400hp GTO, so did the heavy Caddy.

Don't believe me? LOOK IT UP!

LOL

The brand blindness stuff really doesn't matter, but if that's your bag....

The GTO is not the same platform as the Camaro though. Zeta is superior to LX in the sedans (G8, Charger), I see no reason that would change for the Camaro vs. Challenger. GTO was a 10+ year old platform in that comparo.

You are correct that LX is a quite good platform, however.

[CMG]

So if the Mustang has 340hp and weighs 3400lbs, and the Camaro w/auto has 400hp and 4000lbs, that's the same power to weight ratio. I'd still bet on the Camaro winning, plus I don't see the Mustang being that light if it has turbos and IRS.

Regardless of 0-60, quarter mile, and whatnot, the Camaro's suspension is far superior to the Mustang's and thus should have no problem handling better.

Yup, cost will be slightly higher on the Camaro and Challenger I'm sure, but refinement costs money. Comfort does too.

A Mustang with a turbo and IRS will weigh more, and it will also COST more. It will either slowly lean towards the Camaro Challenger or it will be of a slightly different breed.

Sit in the back of the Mustang, then sit in the back of the Camaro or Challenger.

[CMG]

The GTO is not the same platform as the Camaro though. Zeta is superior to LX in the sedans (G8, Charger), I see no reason that would change for the Camaro vs. Challenger. GTO was a 10+ year old platform in that comparo.

You are correct that LX is a quite good platform, however.

I just meant the heavier Caddy and 300 SRT8 compared to the lighter GTO. The Mustang will be lighter than the Camaro and Challenger but that does NOT mean the Camaro and Challenger won't handle or perform, as the GTO-Caddy-300 SRT8 test demonstrated

[Camino LS6]

Yup, cost will be slightly higher on the Camaro and Challenger I'm sure, but refinement costs money. Comfort does too.

A Mustang with a turbo and IRS will weigh more, and it will also COST more. It will either slowly lean towards the Camaro Challenger or it will be of a slightly different breed.

Sit in the back of the Mustang, then sit in the back of the Camaro or Challenger.

And all is right with the world.

Or

It was ever thus.

It's just sort of Mustang's place historically ( not that there's anything wrong with that).

[Robert Hall]

I just meant the heavier Caddy and 300 SRT8 compared to the lighter GTO. The Mustang will be lighter than the Camaro and Challenger but that does NOT mean the Camaro and Challenger won't handle or perform, as the GTO-Caddy-300 SRT8 test demonstrated

Yes, weighty cars can handle quite well... They can't handle as well as an all-out sports car like a Boxster or Elise, but for what they are, I would expect the Camaro and Challenger to handle very well.

[Northstar]

I just meant the heavier Caddy and 300 SRT8 compared to the lighter GTO. The Mustang will be lighter than the Camaro and Challenger but that does NOT mean the Camaro and Challenger won't handle or perform, as the GTO-Caddy-300 SRT8 test demonstrated

I see your point now, and yes I agree that they should outperform the Mustang, with it's somewhat "old" technology platform.

[Camino LS6]

I see your point now, and yes I agree that they should outperform the Mustang, with it's somewhat "old" technology platform.

and also somewhat "cheap" relatively speaking.

[CMG]

and also somewhat "cheap" relatively speaking.

Built a little cheaper and they sell for a little less money.....

[LeoC2]

Showing you the production version perhaps somewhat early?

The first production line Camaro actually was shown last month at GM Carlisle. There is apparently a production run to work out the assembly procedures and kinks before final tooling so this car was exactly how the final production car will be.

[Camino LS6]

Built a little cheaper and they sell for a little less money.....

That's been a Ford strategy from the days of the model T, and I'm ok with that mostly.

[cletus8269]

You've been wrong before, you are wrong now, and you will be wrong again.

The Challenger and the Camaro will be VERY similar in weight, size, and performance.

The Challenger has VERY good handling, it's based on the LX platform, go look at the GTO vs 300 vs Caddy comparo that Motor Trend did. The 300 four door sedan put a whoopin on the 400hp GTO, so did the heavy Caddy.

Don't believe me? LOOK IT UP!

LOL

The brand blindness stuff really doesn't matter, but if that's your bag....

better zip up your fly CMG... you are facing into the wind

[vonVeezelsnider]

Which big heavy Caddy was this?

[Northstar]

Which big heavy Caddy was this?

He's talking about the CTS-V, which was/is heavier than the GTO.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Heavier Than The Monaro? I'd never have guessed that!

[cletus8269]

Let's not forget there is more out there than Ford, Chevy, Dodge either. 350Z and RX-8 can compete with the V6 Camaro, and if the V8 Camaro is pricey, it could run into G37 territory.

might be just me but i dont understand the correlation between a camaro and any part of that last statement. competing with the v6 sure... well not the rx8 it doesnt belong there, the z and maro will roll that up and smoke it... g37 starts at 35 grand and is a 330hp v6 why would that be comparable to a $30K 400hp v8 car that really isnt in the G37's market? isnt a g37 nothing more than a dolled up Z? that being said the z starts at 28K which is what the majority believe to be base SS territory.

[ehaase]

I don't see how a 340hp 3400lbs car would be faster than a 422hp 3850lbs car? Simple power to weight ratio there... Also, who says the Mustang isn't going to get heavy, as well? Especially if it gets IRS, the Mustang is going to add a considerable amount of weight.

Also, the EcoBoost Mustang won't be out before 2012, if then, and the 400 hp 5.0L V8 won't be ready until the 2011 Mustang. The 2010 will still have the current 300 hp 4.6.

[smk4565]

You've been wrong before, you are wrong now, and you will be wrong again.

The Challenger and the Camaro will be VERY similar in weight, size, and performance.

The Challenger has VERY good handling, it's based on the LX platform, go look at the GTO vs 300 vs Caddy comparo that Motor Trend did. The 300 four door sedan put a whoopin on the 400hp GTO, so did the heavy Caddy.

Don't believe me? LOOK IT UP!

LOL

The brand blindness stuff really doesn't matter, but if that's your bag....

The Camaro is 190 inches long, the Challenger is 198 inches long and 76 inches wide, so it is as long as a Lexus LS460 and 2 inches wider. The Challenger is 4140 pounds also. The LX platform is based on a 90s E-class platform, that wasn't exactly the gold standard of handling then, let alone 10 years later. The Challenger will sell for one year while people that used to have them buy them for nostalgia, but the retro styling will make it look dated fast, it gets horrible gas mileage, and there are much better sports cars out there that aren't huge. The Challenger will end up being a bust. like the GTO was.

[Camino LS6]

[smk4565]

If the Camaro V8 is $30 grand they are in good shape. The GTO was near $35,000 at the end of its run, and it didn't sell well because there is a lot of competition from the entry sport/luxury cars. There were other factors too, but the price hurt it.

Edited July 22, 2008 by smk4565

[CMG]

The Camaro is 190 inches long, the Challenger is 198 inches long and 76 inches wide, so it is as long as a Lexus LS460 and 2 inches wider. The Challenger is 4140 pounds also. The LX platform is based on a 90s E-class platform, that wasn't exactly the gold standard of handling then, let alone 10 years later. The Challenger will sell for one year while people that used to have them buy them for nostalgia, but the retro styling will make it look dated fast, it gets horrible gas mileage, and there are much better sports cars out there that aren't huge. The Challenger will end up being a bust. like the GTO was.

The Challenger will end up being a bust. like the GTO was.

Never could a comparison be more off IMO.

The GTO was a "bust" because it was BLAND. It had bland styling and NO PERSONALITY.

It wasn't a bad performing car, it wasn't overpriced, but it sure wasn't a "GTO" from a GTO purist's point of view.

The Challenger is anything BUT bland.

Your "opinion" is completely biased, it has no basis in FACT, only what you WISH.

Many Mopar guys have no interest in the first year cars, aside from the obvious being they ARE first year cars many are waiting for another obvious available with the '09 cars. MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS.

The 5.7 Hemi gets a big boost in horsepower as well as more ecomonomical 5.7 Hemi cars and 3.5 V6 cars in a crazy gas price situation. Plus the markups will fade away.

The Challenger's weight is for the top of the line SRT8 version, with all the doo-dads. It is what it is, but it's a NICE CAR TO DRIVE, has alot of accessories, has top of the line underpinnings such as suspension/wheels/brakes, and it makes no excuses. It doesn't NEED to. Drive the car or read reviews. You'll learn yet. :AH-HA_wink:

The Camaro will be very similar in weight when comparably equipped despite your denial attempts, and it will also be a nice car to drive with lots of accessories and impressive performance if it comes out anything like I think it will.

Neither car will weigh near the Mustang's numbers and neither car will be as small or as light.

All three cars are what they are. I find all three impressive, but I like the Challenger and the Mustang, and you CAN'T.

You know what I mean....... :wink:

[CMG]

If the Camaro V8 is $30 grand they are in good shape. The GTO was near $35,000 at the end of its run, and it didn't sell well because there is a lot of competition from the entry sport/luxury cars. There were other factors too, but the price hurt it.

You could buy a new GTO for a HECKUVA lot less than $30,000 when they were blowing them out.

They weren't selling because demand was low! Enthusiasts liked the performance but the package was a different story... some liked them, many did not.

A high performance V8 Camaro will not be sold for $30,000 when they debut, and they aren't really SPORTS CARS, and they aren't really LUXURY CARS, so why would they have "competition" with that segment?

They are domestic muscle cars, pony cars, etc etc and that's where the competition will be IMO.

[smk4565]

You could buy a new GTO for a HECKUVA lot less than $30,000 when they were blowing them out.

They weren't selling because demand was low! Enthusiasts liked the performance but the package was a different story... some liked them, many did not.

A high performance V8 Camaro will not be sold for $30,000 when they debut, and they aren't really SPORTS CARS, and they aren't really LUXURY CARS, so why would they have "competition" with that segment?

They are domestic muscle cars, pony cars, etc etc and that's where the competition will be IMO.

I am not necessarily trying to compare the Camaro to other $35,000 cars, but feel there is a price range where people buy pony cars, but at $35-40k I think most car buyers in that segment are looking for more luxury. They need to keep the Camaro SS near $30,000 for it to be successful. The GTO's blandness hurt it the most, but being a $33,000 Pontiac didn't help much either. I am sure some people thought why get a Pontiac when for similar money I can get a Cadillac CTS or an Infiniti G35, etc Those cars aren't as fast, but the brand image is a lot better.

[Satty]

For $35k, I'd take a G37 over a Camaro coupe. Convertible is a different story, but the SS vert will be well over $35k.

[Sixty8panther]

g37 starts at 35 grand and is a 330hp v6 why would that be comparable to a $30K 400hp v8 car that really isnt in the G37's market? isnt a g37 nothing more than a dolled up Z 2+2? that being said the z starts at 28K which is what the majority believe to be base SS territory.

fixed.

[CMG]

They need to keep the Camaro SS near $30,000 for it to be successful.

GM will surely need to sell the cars for more than just $30,000 to keep financially successful.

They can't be making a car like the Camaro SS and then just turn around and give it away for cost, if that.

ANY car would be successful if they were given away at below cost prices. It's just not gonna happen. Not IMO.

[Robert Hall]

For $35k, I'd take a G37 over a Camaro coupe. Convertible is a different story, but the SS vert will be well over $35k.

Well, a Mustang GT vert is around $35k...but there is a 100hp difference (at least w/ the current Mustang).

[A Horse With No Name]

Keep this in mind...

Camaro V6: 300 HP, 26 MPG hwy

Mustang V6: 210 HP, 26 MPG hwy

Challenger V6: 250 HP, 25-26 MPG hwy (est. because Charger gets 24 MPG hwy with same engine)

So up to 90 HP difference with comparable MPGs? Nice. :AH-HA_wink:

Also...

Camaro SS: 422 HP (when properly equipped)

Challenger SRT8: 425 HP

3 HP difference, ~200-300 lbs difference.. and that's only the SS. Can't wait to see if/when Dodge will up the ante on the SRT8 for the Z/28.

Camaro V6 may well be my kinda car...I like those numbers.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

For $35k, I'd take a G37 over a Camaro coupe. Convertible is a different story, but the SS vert will be well over $35k.

I know someone with a G37, I am NOT impressed with anything Nissan is currently building, for 37K I want a $32,000 Challenger R/T with the Heritage package (coming out in spring 2009), a 78 Camaro Z-28 project car for $3500...and a few dollars left over to get to the track, where I will work on the pit crew of an SCCA Mustang.

That should get me the best of all three worlds.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Well, a Mustang GT vert is around $35k...but there is a 100hp difference (at least w/ the current Mustang).

A prisitine used current gen Mustang GT 'Vert can be had for $24-25k...

With a great aftermarket, a TON of whatever you want can be done with the other 10K, or just put it into a Mutual Fund.

Pardon me, I'm cheap and love Mustangs.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

He's talking about the CTS-V, which was/is heavier than the GTO.

Current Caddy CTS-V just ran the 'ring in under 8 mins with Heinricy at the wheel...

Chris

[Robert Hall]

A prisitine used current gen Mustang GT 'Vert can be had for $24-25k...

With a great aftermarket, a TON of whatever you want can be done with the other 10K, or just put it into a Mutual Fund.

Pardon me, I'm cheap and love Mustangs.

Chris

I was talking new ones... a GT convertible equipped as I would want one is over $35k. I think we are comparing new cars to new cars..the used market is something else entirely..

Edited July 22, 2008 by moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

Yes, I know we were talking NEW, but to me, given the choice of A. G37, new, 35k B. Mustang GT new, 35K or C. Mustang GT, slightly used, 24k, the answer would be "C."

Even new to new though, I'd drop 35k on a Mustang GT before I'd drop it on a G37.

Chris