More proof GM doesn't know what it's doing: CTS-V not bound for Europe

[smk4565]

I don't find the XF interior "all that" at all......it's surprisingly tight inside and the gimicks like the rotating shift knob and rotating HVAC vents are just that.....gimicks.

I think the vast plateau of silver plastic trim on the dash and center stack looks and feels like plastic. I don't think the dashboard or instrument cluster are very stylish.....

To me, if you sit inside a current XJ, it feels like it has a real sense of occasion. Sure it may be dated, and the switchgear may be older....but you sit inside it and it feels like a Jaguar....feels special.

Basically it the XF just doesn't feel special to me....I tend to feel the same way about the XK interior as well.

The XF uses aluminum trim not gray plastic imitation stuff like some cars. The leather wrapped dash (premium or supercharged) is real leather, not imitation, and I happen to like the gimmicks. I'll agree that it can be a little tight feeling because the console is high in the middle. The XF interior is better than the A6, 5-series or E-class. The XJ is like a fancier, better made Town Car. It has that old fashioned feel with gobs of burled walnut wood trim.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Nice...

BTW, I'd say it's safe to say (LOL, say that 3 times fast) that NO ONE knows whats going on inside GM at the moment.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

W.T.F. This is sounding like Nicole Richie blaming everything, and I mean everything, over her period. Except for you, it's the media.

Saying the European Focus is as European as the American Accord is American is NOT quelling whatever "guilt" I have - it is based on reality, the fact that certain Hondas are dreamt up by Americans, designed and engineered by Americans, and built in America exclusively for Americans from start to finish, whereas neither BMW of NA nor Mercedes-Benz USA have the capacity to do the same.

Does this make HoMoCo American? No. But I don't see how most European countries really are so much more "nationalistic" about their car purchases than Americans.

The comment wasn't directed at you.

DUPLICATE: " 'nuff said."

[smk4565]

We might not know where his logic came from, but, the V8 Genesis is a $40K - $42K car.....right on top of most decently-equipped non-D.I. CTS sedans......

My logic behind it was that Europeans look at a Cadillac as 2nd class, like we in the USA look at Hyundai as second class. The way people here think the Genesis is not a worthy competitor is exactly how Europeans think of Cadillac.

But the comparison is valid. $42,000 for a Genesis V8, A CTS DI can easily go high $40s (the one I test drove was $50,200). Their skid pad numbers are the same, options lists are similar, but the Genesis has a 17 speaker 500 watt stereo compared to 10 speaker, 300 watt in the CTS, and the Genesis is faster and roomier. The Genesis V8 even gets 17/25 mpg, the CTS V6 is 17/26. The CTS is closer to the Genesis than it is to a 335i or 535i.

[balthazar]

Sorry; we in the U.S. look at hyundai as fourth class, just approaching third.

No one who's shopping Cadillac will cross-shop a hyundai- ridiculous. No one buys a car by counting the # of speakers, ridiculous. Skidpad numbers are routinely dismissed as primary markers for handling : what is the hindend's slalom or lane-changing numbers?

As if it really matters- it's a cush-mobile at best, not anything with sporting pretensions- it's an avalon w/ RWD & a V-8, tho I suppose it may make a big impression on the set of "I LUV the '90s' due to it's cribbed styling efforts.

[maxximus1]

It's too bad that the CTS-V wont be in the euro market to compete with the BMW M's, Mecedes AMG's or Audi RS'. The V series will be a world beater for sure, but Cadillac is late in the game anyways and the others have already moved on. While Cadillac is just joining into the super fast club, what about the next trendy segment called the "four door coupe". Mercedes CLS is hot, Audi A7 is coming out in a few years as well as Porche's Panamera. BMW's CS concept car is supposed to be coming out as an 8 series as well.

I love Cadillac and have owned a few before but I wish they were more in step with the other premium brands. By the time Cadillac even designs a concept for that segment I'm afraid there will be a new trend already out.

[balthazar]

>>"The V series will be a world beater for sure, but Cadillac is late in the game anyways and the others have already moved on."<<

So the AMGs and Ms are all cancelled? That's some shocking news!

CTS-V is 4 years old and counting. If that means late to the game, what is the A7's timing vs. the CLS?? How late to the game is porsche with their sports sedan ??

I hear what you are saying- things could always be better, (IMO, the BMWCS should've been the Bangled 7-series years ago), but I see no reason to seemingly 'dis' the CTS-V because it didn't appear the same year it's competitors first did. Hopefully Cadillac will spread the CTS/SRX/Escalade segment successes throughout the portfolio.

Edited July 15, 2008 by balthazar

[Intrepidation]

It's too bad that the CTS-V wont be in the euro market to compete with the BMW M's, Mecedes AMG's or Audi RS'. The V series will be a world beater for sure, but Cadillac is late in the game anyways and the others have already moved on. While Cadillac is just joining into the super fast club, what about the next trendy segment called the "four door coupe". Mercedes CLS is hot, Audi A7 is coming out in a few years as well as Porche's Panamera. BMW's CS concept car is supposed to be coming out as an 8 series as well.

I love Cadillac and have owned a few before but I wish they were more in step with the other premium brands. By the time Cadillac even designs a concept for that segment I'm afraid there will be a new trend already out.

Maybe GM does know what it's doing after all:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/14/lock-an...rope-after-all/

Edited July 15, 2008 by Dodgefan

[smk4565]

Sorry; we in the U.S. look at hyundai as fourth class, just approaching third.

No one who's shopping Cadillac will cross-shop a hyundai- ridiculous. No one buys a car by counting the # of speakers, ridiculous. Skidpad numbers are routinely dismissed as primary markers for handling : what is the hindend's slalom or lane-changing numbers?

As if it really matters- it's a cush-mobile at best, not anything with sporting pretensions- it's an avalon w/ RWD & a V-8, tho I suppose it may make a big impression on the set of "I LUV the '90s' due to it's cribbed styling efforts.

You could argue that no one shopping for a BMW 5 or 7 series or Mercedes E, CLS or S-class is cross shopping Cadillac. Those cars are $50-180,000, Cadillac doesn't operate in that price range (except Escalade or slow selling XLR and I am comparing sedans).

The Genesis has to be cross shopped with something. I think Chrysler 300, Buick, Avalon, Lincoln, and Lexus ES are the targets. I personally am not going to buy a Genesis, but it would make for an interesting test drive.

[Intrepidation]

The Genesis has to be cross shopped with something. I think Chrysler 300, Buick, Avalon, Lincoln, and Lexus ES are the targets. I personally am not going to buy a Genesis, but it would make for an interesting test drive.

Right there you justa dmitted that the idea of cross shopping the CTS with the Genesis is a stupid idea. The cars you just listed are the cars that will be crossed-shopped, with the Chrysler 300 being the closest logical match to the Genesis.

[Lamar]

We might not know where his logic came from, but, the V8 Genesis is a $40K - $42K car.....right on top of most decently-equipped non-D.I. CTS sedans......

My point is... if you compare V8 performance numbers to V6 performance numbers, and they stack up... who looks better and who looks worse?

[maxximus1]

Dodgefan, thanks for clearing that up. So the CTS-V is going to make it over there afterall.

From the words of Emily Litella played by Gilda Radner on Saturday Night Live.... "never mind!"

[Camino LS6]

The Tundra isn't a total dud, they sold nearly 200,000 of them, all pickups are falling now. The Tundra is ugly as can be, and pickup buyers are generally loyal, that is what really hurts it. Plus the Tundra is not better than the Silverado. The Tundra faces the same problem Cadillac has breaking into Europe. To break into a new market you have to blow away the competition, not just get 90% of the way there.

Toyota has the new Sequoia that is nicer than the Land Cruiser and does 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, so people will buy that instead of the Land Before Time Cruiser.

I am glad that the CTS-V is going to Europe after all. I hope Clarkson tests the regular and V versions of the CTS.

Tundra is, as I predicted, a real loser.

In fact, it is the worst mistake Toyota has made in recent memory.

[smk4565]

Tundra is, as I predicted, a real loser.

In fact, it is the worst mistake Toyota has made in recent memory.

The goal was to sell 200,000 of them, and they sold 197,000 in calendar year 2007. It's not as good as the Silverado or F150, so less people bought it, but over time Toyota will get the quality issues fixed. If selling 197,000 units and making $6 billion in revenue is their worst mistake, Toyota is in a pretty good place.

[Drew Dowdell]

they're on track to sell less than 150,000 this year.

[Camino LS6]

The goal was to sell 200,000 of them, and they sold 197,000 in calendar year 2007. It's not as good as the Silverado or F150, so less people bought it, but over time Toyota will get the quality issues fixed. If selling 197,000 units and making $6 billion in revenue is their worst mistake, Toyota is in a pretty good place.

Umm, no.

Toyota reduced the goal to 200k and then failed to meet this reduced goal. The truck has glaring design flaws, and was trending down in sales even before the oil crisis hit. Not to mention the billions spent on development and all new plant (the second plant is cancelled at this point, if I recall correctly). Toyota has now swung and missed three times with this product. Yes, it is their biggest mistake - and a very expensive and embarassing one at that.

The Tundra, simply put, is a POS.

[Drew Dowdell]

6 billion in revenues

now how much did it cost them to make it? build the plant? make fake ads? recall it?

[smk4565]

I agree that the Tundra is ugly inside and out and has had quality issues, and it isn't as good as the Ford or Chevy. Maybe it performs as well a Ram (Ram looks better though), I'd never buy a pickup so it doesn't matter to me.

Toyota's net income last year (year ending March 08) was $17.15 billion, so even if the Tundra is a total bust, it doesn't seem to be hurting them. There is no Toyota/Lexus I'd want, but they are the most efficient and well managed automobile company.

[balthazar]

>>"Toyota reduced the goal to 200k and then failed to meet this reduced goal. The truck has glaring design flaws, and was trending down in sales even before the oil crisis hit. Not to mention the billions spent on development and all new plant (the second plant is cancelled at this point, if I recall correctly). Toyota has now swung and missed three times with this product. Yes, it is their biggest mistake - and a very expensive and embarassing one at that. The Tundra, simply put, is a POS. "<<

Very true.

allow me to add to this: tundra debacle also had major warranty issues and very high incentives. Plus- no way did toyopet make $6B profit on the tundra alone- don't forget whatever slim profit the tundra may or may not have made, the plant/ tooling and all major pieces of the tundra were brand new- none of that is paid off. PLUS the plant ran overbudget to construct by millions. This truck, taking into account the potential future of the segment, may take a decade to make a profit.

And finally- the cherry on top is, even tho it's only 2 yrs old (or whatever) - toyopet is already pulling the tundra from the factory to build priuseessees, so add retooling to that ever-growing figure.

[pow]

I don't find the XF interior "all that" at all......it's surprisingly tight inside and the gimicks like the rotating shift knob and rotating HVAC vents are just that.....gimicks.

I think the vast plateau of silver plastic trim on the dash and center stack looks and feels like plastic. I don't think the dashboard or instrument cluster are very stylish.....

To me, if you sit inside a current XJ, it feels like it has a real sense of occasion. Sure it may be dated, and the switchgear may be older....but you sit inside it and it feels like a Jaguar....feels special.

Basically it the XF just doesn't feel special to me....I tend to feel the same way about the XK interior as well.

Totally agree. The XF looks fat and bulbous, and the interior reminds me of an early-2000s Lincoln. Once the novelty of a new sedan that isn't a BMW, Audi, or Merc wears off, I can't imagine it sustaining the same level of sales throughout its product cycle. There isn't even a six-cylinder available.

[smk4565]

$6 billion in revenue I said, not profit. Even if the Tundra made $0 profit, Toyota still made $17.1 billion in profit overall, so if that is all off cars, then they are in good shape for the future. GM or Ford would be thrilled to make even $1 billion in profit from car sales, let alone $17B.

Pictures don't do the XF justice, I wish the headlights were more like the concept, but oh well. The interior is better than anything form America or Japan and the back looks like an Aston Martin, which is a good thing. Jaguar wants to go up market with a performance image so they went V8 only. People paying $60,000 probably don't care if it gets 18-19 mpg rather than 20-21 from a V6. Although I think a turbo V6, or diesel would help as gas prices rise. Jaguar does have a hybrid system coming for their new V8, maybe that combo will get V6 mileage.

CTS-V vs XF-R vs 2010/11 M5 vs 2010 E63 should be good though. The 2010 A6 will have a full aluminum chassis, so the RS6 may become a threat again, once it doesn't weigh 4500 pounds.

[balthazar]

I'd be nice if ANYTHING on the production XF was more like the concept.

[Intrepidation]

I'd be nice if ANYTHING on the production XF was more like the concept.

The shifter

I like the XF, but I had forgotten just how much better looking the C-XF is.

[balthazar]

Why does Jag tease us (well, smk, mostly) with a dynamic concept, then give us a watered-down, generic '90s taurus body with subaru headlights?? Jaguar- the perpetual bridesmaid.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why does Jag tease us (well, smk, mostly) with a dynamic concept, then give us a watered-down, generic '90s taurus body with subaru headlights?? Jaguar- the perpetual bridesmaid.

in the extra salvation army dress.....

[smk4565]

I believe the XF has won every comparison test it has been in. Edmunds.com picked it over the 550i, E550, A6 4.2, Motor Trend picked it over the 550i, E550 and GS460, a German magazine even picked it over the 550i and E550, and of course the British car rags think it is the best luxury sedan. It' s a great car, and for those that want styling closer to the concept version, the XJ is said to be more aggressive like the CX-F, plus it is aluminum and lighter than the XF.

[Intrepidation]

I believe the XF has won every comparison test it has been in. Edmunds.com picked it over the 550i, E550, A6 4.2, Motor Trend picked it over the 550i, E550 and GS460, a German magazine even picked it over the 550i and E550, and of course the British car rags think it is the best luxury sedan. It' s a great car, and for those that want styling closer to the concept version, the XJ is said to be more aggressive like the CX-F, plus it is aluminum and lighter than the XF.

I for one never had a problem with the XF. It is a good looking car, and far more so than the Germans. I do hope the next XJ has the agressiveness of teh C-XF though, because while teh XF is very good, it lost that aggressive edge from concept to production.

[balthazar]

It's a lot farther removed from the concept than -say- the G6 was. But what I want to know is- why change any of it at this price level??

>>"It's not as good as the Silverado or F150, so less people bought it, but over time Toyota will get the quality issues fixed. If selling 197,000 units and making $6 billion in revenue..."<<

The crime here is toyota had decades and decades of studying/copying the class leaders, endless buckets of bux, and they weren't. even. close. And with all that mad, crazy, outrageous R&D spending.....

[smk4565]

The C-XF front end was too expensive to do, even at $50-65,000.

GM has had 25 years to copy the 3-series and never did, 40 years to copy the S-class and never did. At least Toyota tried, Cadillac won't even try.

I don't like Toyota and wouldn't buy their cars, but I recognize that they are the wealthiest and most efficiently managed car maker. Toyota could buy 100% of GM's stock with 6 months worth of profit. At least they can afford to spend $8 billion a year on R&D, GM never spent that much and has to cut back due to the financial trouble they are in. And GM has 11 global brands vs 4 for Toyota (counting Daihatsu) that they have to spread the money around to.

[balthazar]

>>"GM has had 25 years to copy the 3-series and never did, 40 years to copy the S-class and never did. At least Toyota tried, Cadillac won't even try."<<

Mercedes copied far more from Cadillac in the last 40 years than vice versa, vs. now. mercedes' mainstream cars then were tiny, tinny, anemic and archaic, Cadillac's certainly weren't.

But in the last 40 years the car market has been shrinking while the truck market was growing. GMC alone sold 148K units in '68 and nearly 600K in '06. Market crests in '06, toyo builds a BN truck plant in '07. Well planned.

>>"I recognize that they are the wealthiest..."<<

Who has ever debated this point with you, yet you make a point of repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating it. You would spend weeks at the Grand Canyon. As if all toyo's revenue was proportionally reflective in their products... at all.

>>"...and most efficiently managed car maker."<<

I think most would agree that the deluge of recalls and TSBs in the last 2 years have greatly hampered toyopet's 'efficiency', (multi-billion dollar product buy-back ring any bells?) and I would easily believe there are more streamlined & more efficient manufacturers out there than toy-bloat-o.