Hey PCS

[Camino LS6]

Is there anything good in your boss' vision of the new GM?

Seriously, where are his "gotta have" products?

We've yet to see anything worth talking about.

Is it really all about bland, midsize FWD sedans?

Surely there must be something.

[Oracle of Delphi]

My boss is but one man, GM is going after the biggest market now, which no longer wants big RWD vehicles with tons of horespower. The world has changed again Camino, just like it did in 1974.

[Camino LS6]

My boss is but one man, GM is going after the biggest market now, which no longer wants big RWD vehicles with tons of horespower. The world has changed again Camino, just like it did in 1974.

That wasn't the question.

But, since you brought that up, GM is about to make the same mistake it made back then once more. It is panicking it's way into being a one-trick pony all over again, and will be caught with its collective pants down... again.

A mix of vehicles is what's needed, not a one-size-fits-all sedan.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That wasn't the question.

But, since you brought that up, GM is about to make the same mistake it made back then once more. It is panicking it's way into being a one-trick pony all over again, and will be caught with its collective pants down... again.

A mix of vehicles is what's needed, not a one-size-fits-all sedan.

Where was that mix when you and your kind wanted to change Pontiac into an all RWD performance brand, kicking people like me out of Pontiac altogether. People who have been loyal to Pontiac since they were 10 years old. Sorry, but I have no sympathy now.

[Camino LS6]

Where was that mix when you and your kind wanted to change Pontiac into an all RWD performance brand, kicking people like me out of Pontiac altogether. People who have been loyal to Pontiac since they were 10 years old. Sorry, but I have no sympathy now.

Ah, so it is a vendetta?

Did you really love the FWD Pontiacs that much?

My point is that GM needs a mix - always. An all RWD brand wouldn't prevent that. There are plenty of brands, right?

A few good RWD performance products should always be available in several price ranges across the brands. As should economical FWD sedans, good trucks, comfortable FWD cruisers, pure luxury cars, and so on.

[Intrepidation]

Variety is the spice of life. When you have too many versions of the same vehicle (like say Epsilon) you get accused of badge engineering, or more importantly, too many similar products that compete with each other. If you put all of your eggs in one basket, and the market shifts again, then you're caught off guard and unable. Having a variety of products and flexible plants you can quickly adapt to market fluctuations.

History is going to repeat itself.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Dodgefan

[daves87rs]

Is there anything good in your boss' vision of the new GM?

Seriously, where are his "gotta have" products?

We've yet to see anything worth talking about.

Is it really all about bland, midsize FWD sedans?

Surely there must be something.

Dude, I don't think that's cool..I kinda feel like you are calling PCS out.....and that doesn't sit well with me.

Hw may work for GM, but he doesn't have control over the product....

Mr. Wagner does.

The comsumer does.

I understand you are pissed..(as many are), but someone I don't see what good this will do......

[daves87rs]

Variety is the spice of life. When you have too many versions of the same vehicle (like say Epsilon) you get accused of badge engineering, or more importantly, too many similar products that compete with each other. If you put all of your eggs in one basket, and the market shifts again, then you're caught off guard and unable. Having a variety of products and flexible plants you can quickly adapt to market fluctuations.

History is going to repeat itself.

The problem is that GM doesn't have the money to have the variety of products it once had.

In lies the overlap....so do we have less brands, or less products?

[daves87rs]

I feel that people fail to realize that there are going to be some major changes, not just at GM, but most all automakers...

The next few years are going to make it tough to be a car lover.....

[Intrepidation]

I do realize that, and I can see why some brands may need to be cut, or product be reduced, but this isn't a new problem. back when GM had more cash it dumped it into trucks and SUVs instead of trucks, SUVS, and cars. Now the shift is too cars. What happens when the market shifts to something else?

The other problem is, even if you cut brands, and you stick Saab and Saturn with Buick, you'll have problems just as much. Saab and Buick are more premium, and Saturn is supposed to have a premium image now too. You'll have at least 3 EPII products in the showroom, and maybe 3 or more Delta II. There will still be product overlap. And if you don't have variety you're just selling the same thing under a different wrapper.

[Blake Noble]

Dude, I don't think that's cool..I kinda feel like you are calling PCS out.....and that doesn't sit well with me.

Hw may work for GM, but he doesn't have control over the product....

Mr. Wagner does.

The comsumer does.

I understand you are pissed..(as many are), but someone I don't see what good this will do......

PCS is the messenger right? Well, who better than to leave a calling card of sorts with?

The underlying message here is for GM to try and make all approaches work and not to abandon a single one of them over the other. That is what can potentially help to ensure GM will weather the market conditions it will face whenever they may come.

Camino raises a bit of advice that should be considered, especially if GM is supposed to be considering all approaches to solving the problem (which, I might wish to add, does not have one simple solution).

Edited July 9, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[vonVeezelsnider]

Where was that mix when you and your kind wanted to change Pontiac into an all RWD performance brand, kicking people like me out of Pontiac altogether. People who have been loyal to Pontiac since they were 10 years old. Sorry, but I have no sympathy now.

And PCS isn't the only one. My Dad who's owned six Pontiacs since 1975 has given up on them too. We saw a G8 at a dealer a while back. He told me that between the poor fuel economy of the GMC Acadia and that 'terrible' G8, he'll only set foot in a B-P-G Dealer for a Buick car because they're 'getting it right'. He said that it didn't look like a Pontiac, that it was ugly inside and out, that the Upholstery quality was crap, and that RWD just will not cut it (bearing in mind he almost bought a Slate Metallic 2007 Grand Prix GT last fall). The only thing nice he had to say about it was it had a big back seat. I guess it didn't help that it was the same shade of blue as my Cavalier. It's a sin to make the damn thing so heavy and without AWD too.

Pontiac cannot be saved by making a rebadged Holden Commodore in wild colors. I don't even consider it to be a Pontiac because it just isn't. Just because its clone is sold on another continent doesn't make it okay. It doesn't have any Pontiac DNA in it at all, only the G6 Coupe and Solstice do nowadays. It's this life-force of sorts that flows through a Pontiac, you can feel it just by looking at one. It's really hard to explain. Even with its bad proportions, "wrong wheel drive" and overhangs, the GP still evokes this sort of thing with me when I see one- from its greenhouse to the fact that it actually looks "Wide Track" (even with its Enterprise Sticker). This leads me to believe that Pontiac's salvation lies in building Pontiacs not Chevies or Holdens. I'm not saying we all go back to the W-Bod, but at least invest some time and money into the thing because as far as I'm concerned it's a hack-job as it is now, just as bad as the G5 or G3 or Torrent. Just because it has RWD and an optional V8 doesn't give it a pass for this transgression in my books.

Edited July 9, 2008 by vonVeezelsnider

[daves87rs]

I do realize that, and I can see why some brands may need to be cut, or product be reduced, but this isn't a new problem. back when GM had more cash it dumped it into trucks and SUVs instead of trucks, SUVS, and cars. Now the shift is too cars. What happens when the market shifts to something else?

The other problem is, even if you cut brands, and you stick Saab and Saturn with Buick, you'll have problems just as much. Saab and Buick are more premium, and Saturn is supposed to have a premium image now too. You'll have at least 3 EPII products in the showroom, and maybe 3 or more Delta II. There will still be product overlap. And if you don't have variety you're just selling the same thing under a different wrapper.

I have a feeling the brands we are used to are going to change.....

And the product verlap will be ok if all the products look and feel different...and when they have time for more platforms, they will happen....gotta work with what they have now....

[daves87rs]

And PCS isn't the only one. My Dad who's owned six Pontiacs since 1975 has given up on them too. We saw a G8 at a dealer a while back. He told me that between the poor fuel economy of the GMC Acadia and that 'terrible' G8, he'll only set foot in a B-P-G Dealer for a Buick car because they're 'getting it right'. He said that it didn't look like a Pontiac, that it was ugly inside and out, that the Upholstery quality was crap, and that RWD just will not cut it (bearing in mind he almost bought a Slate Metallic 2007 Grand Prix GT last fall). The only thing nice he had to say about it was it had a big back seat. I guess it didn't help that it was the same shade of blue as my Cavalier. It's a sin to make the damn thing so heavy and without AWD too.

Pontiac cannot be saved by making a rebadged Holden Commodore in wild colors. I don't even consider it to be a Pontiac because it just isn't. Just because its clone is sold on another continent doesn't make it okay. It doesn't have any Pontiac DNA in it at all, only the G6 Coupe and Solstice do nowadays. It's this life-force of sorts that flows through a Pontiac, you can feel it just by looking at one. It's really hard to explain. Even with its bad proportions, "wrong wheel drive" and overhangs, the GP still evokes this sort of thing with me when I see one- from its greenhouse to the fact that it actually looks "Wide Track" (even with its Enterprise Sticker). This leads me to believe that Pontiac's salvation lies in building Pontiacs not Chevies or Holdens. I'm not saying we all go back to the W-Bod, but at least invest some time and money into the thing because as far as I'm concerned it's a hack-job as it is now, just as bad as the G5 or G3 or Torrent.

And I am going to agree with Von of this too....

[daves87rs]

PCS is the messenger right? Well, who better than to leave a calling card of sorts with?

The underlying message here is for GM to try and make all approaches work and not to abandon a single one of them over the other. That is what can potentially help to ensure GM will weather the market conditions it will face whenever they may come.

Camino raises a bit of advice that should be considered, especially if GM is supposed to be considering all approaches to solving the problem (which, I might wish to add, does not have one simple solution).

Yes and No.

And their is nothing wrong with offering advice, But we we have no control over the bottom line......

[Blake Noble]

And PCS isn't the only one. My Dad who's owned six Pontiacs since 1975 has given up on them too. We saw a G8 at a dealer a while back. He told me that between the poor fuel economy of the GMC Acadia and that 'terrible' G8, he'll only set foot in a B-P-G Dealer for a Buick car because they're 'getting it right'. He said that it didn't look like a Pontiac, that it was ugly inside and out, that the Upholstery quality was crap, and that RWD just will not cut it (bearing in mind he almost bought a Slate Metallic 2007 Grand Prix GT last fall). The only thing nice he had to say about it was it had a big back seat. I guess it didn't help that it was the same shade of blue as my Cavalier. It's a sin to make the damn thing so heavy and without AWD too.

Pontiac cannot be saved by making a rebadged Holden Commodore in wild colors. I don't even consider it to be a Pontiac because it just isn't. Just because its clone is sold on another continent doesn't make it okay. It doesn't have any Pontiac DNA in it at all, only the G6 Coupe and Solstice do nowadays. It's this life-force of sorts that flows through a Pontiac, you can feel it just by looking at one. It's really hard to explain. Even with its bad proportions, "wrong wheel drive" and overhangs, the GP still evokes this sort of thing with me when I see one- from its greenhouse to the fact that it actually looks "Wide Track" (even with its Enterprise Sticker). This leads me to believe that Pontiac's salvation lies in building Pontiacs not Chevies or Holdens. I'm not saying we all go back to the W-Bod, but at least invest some time and money into the thing because as far as I'm concerned it's a hack-job as it is now, just as bad as the G5 or G3 or Torrent. Just because it has RWD and an optional V8 doesn't give it a pass for this transgression in my books.

Hmm ... I feel that I wish to clear my personal record here: I only support what concepts the Holden Commodore can bring to Pontiac as a G8. It's rear-drive, it's performance oriented, and the car is mainly driver focused. Styling is subjective; while I do wish that it had more Pontiac DNA, it has the correct proportions and stance for a Pontiac and isn't offensive to the eyes. While I do prefer a coupe, it is wrapped in a more versatile sedan wrapper. While it's not 100 percent what I look for in a Pontiac, it is what I look for mostly (it would be 100 percent if the base model had a stick) in a sedan, and that's what makes it work for me.

GM doesn't need to abandon the G8 as its range-topping model, it should build on it. Take the basics of what makes it wholesome as a driver's car and a performance car, then strip out the excess fat, add a stick, and give it a true Pontiac flavor. That is a Pontiac sedan from Utopia in my opinion.

Edited July 9, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Blake Noble]

Yes and No.

And their is nothing wrong with offering advice, But we we have no control over the bottom line......

Indeed, we can only hope GM will hear us out. But when sound thoughts are being offered, why instantly reject them?

You need every tool you can get when you first approach a problem. Instantly disregarding one of them could mean you just wind up with something just as broke as when you started, if I make any sense here.

[Oracle of Delphi]

What you don't understand is that decisions have already been made, you can't negotiate your way out of that, just ask the CAW in Oshawa.

Anyway, I'm sure y'all will figure it out on your own. I have more pleasant things to attend to. I wish you all a fond adieu.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

I still don't have an answer to my question.

Just what, exactly, will this "new GM" have to offer?

We've seen little of any consequence.

The messenger has thus far only carried news of doom for what we now have with no positive alternatives being offered.

So, I ask again, what "gotta have" cars are they planning to offer?

I'm afraid that I already know the answer.

[Drew Dowdell]

My boss is but one man, GM is going after the biggest market now, which no longer wants big RWD vehicles with tons of horespower. The world has changed again Camino, just like it did in 1974.

Oh good, because nothing bad came from *THAT* in terms of automotive design.

[Drew Dowdell]

The next few years are going to make it tough to be a GM lover.....

fixed

[Drew Dowdell]

What you don't understand is that decisions have already been made, you can't negotiate your way out of that, just ask the CAW in Oshawa.

WE don't need to negotiate at all. There are people in here who bleed GM who are being left out in the cold. GM has already lost the customers who don't care about the brands. Is GM trying to lose the customers who do? GM has to negotiate with US. Here I am, a GM fan since I was 3, and GM is now down to just two models that would be on my shopping list were I in the market today <CTS and Malibu>. Compare that to Ford which has 3 in the Mercury brand alone.

So... tell us... is there anything in the pipeline that would be of even vague interest to us.

[Intrepidation]

Someone needs to explain to me how a G6 coupe"feels like a Pontiac" Is the cheap interior? The poor proportions? (some people don't seem to care about such things though), the fact that the Accord coupe is probably a better car to drive, and looks better inside and out (in addition to being of much higher quality). Maybe it's that gawd awful Street Package which gives it a set of beaver teeth and shiny wheels, and a massive spoiler, but no real performance upgrades? Sorry. I'm not buying it. You could swap the Malibu's front end on it and have an ugly Chevy coupe.

If we were to go buy what truly feels like a Pontiac, the Solstice is the only car in the entire lineup that qualifies. Even then, it's full of compromises, which include the somewhat clunky manual transmission, and by nature having limited appeal, not to mention the cheap interior.

The G8 may not have been born a Pontiac, but it has all of the right qualities: excellent proportions, world class handling, stylish and clean interior, and excellent engine options. To top it all off, there is no other car like it in the NA GM lineup...something no other Pontiac can claim title to...not even the Solstice.

I think Pontiac can have FWD cars, but it has to be done right, and the G6 is not an example of "done right" AWD and a RWD model or 2 should be included.

But whatever, it's been decided the fate of Pontiac I'm sure, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Robert Hall]

Is it really all about bland, midsize FWD sedans?

I'm afraid it is..that is the core of the market, has been for over 20 years now.

[CSpec]

Someoneneeds to explain to me how a G6 coupe"feelslike a Pontiac" Is teh cheap interior? The poor proportions? (some peopel don't seem to care about such things though), the fact that the Accord coupe is preobably a better car to drive, and looks better inside and out (in addition to being of much higher quality). Maybe it's that gawd aweful Street Package which gives it a set of beaver teeth and shiny wheels, and a massive spoiler, but no real performance upgrades? Sorry. I'm not buying it. You could swap the Malibu's front end on it and have an ugly Chevy coupe.

If we were to go buy what truely feels like a Pontiac, the Solstice is the only car in the entirelineup that qualifies. Even then, it's full of comproises, which include the somewhat clunky manual transmission, and by nature having himisted appeal, not to mention the cheap interior.

The G8 may not have been born a Pontiac, but it has all of the right qualities: excellent proportions, world class handling, stylish and clean interior, and excellenet engine options. To top it all off, there is no other car like it in the NA GM lineup...something no other Pontiac can claim title to...not even the Solstice.

I think Pontiac can have FWD cars, but it has to be done right, and the G6 is not an example of "done right" AWD and a RWD model or 2 should be included.

But whatever, it's been decided the fate of Pontiac I'm sure, so we'll just have to wait and see.

I agree, despite the typos. The G6 is really a second-rate product, and the Solstice has a hopeless roof and major interior shortfalls. The G8 is good, but quickly becoming an anachronism.

[Intrepidation]

I agree, despite the typos. The G6 is really a second-rate product, and the Solstice has a hopeless roof and major interior shortfalls. The G8 is good, but quickly becoming an anachronism.

LOL I just fixed the typos. Takes longer because IE7 has no spell check feature.

[daves87rs]

I still don't understand why people don't understand that these are things that GM needs to do....not because that want to piss you off....

If not, well-there are other car makers elsewhere...

There is no way GM can please everyone here....

[vonVeezelsnider]

WE don't need to negotiate at all. There are people in here who bleed GM who are being left out in the cold. GM has already lost the customers who don't care about the brands. Is GM trying to lose the customers who do? GM has to negotiate with US. Here I am, a GM fan since I was 3, and GM is now down to just two models that would be on my shopping list were I in the market today <CTS and Malibu>. Compare that to Ford which has 3 in the Mercury brand alone.

So... tell us... is there anything in the pipeline that would be of even vague interest to us.

I'm down to six myself. <Impala, Aura, Malibu, Lucerne, DTS, LaCrosse Super>

[Intrepidation]

I still don't understand why people don't understand that these are things that GM needs to do....not because that want to piss you off....

If not, well-there are other car makers elsewhere...

There is no way GM can please everyone here....

That's not the issue here. The issue is that GM has had years to fix its brands and make them focused and profitable. Now that that was finally starting to happen, along comes CAFE and "panic mode" sets in. Instead of being rational they throw away everything but the most economical car. I'm not saying economical is bad, in fact I am happy to see it. However when you build a car that has no relation to the brand it represents the brand becomes pointless again, or when you want to kill off the car or cars that have the greatest chance of bring that brand back to relevance. You can have frugal cars, you can have frugal sporty cars, and you can have some not so frugal sporty cars. It's all about balance and not panicing.

[daves87rs]

That's not the issue here. The issue is that GM has had years to fix its brands and make them focused and profitable. Now that that was finally starting to happen, along comes CAFE and "panic mode" sets in. Instead of being rational they throw away everything but the most economical car. I'm not saying economical is bad, in fact I am happy to see it. However when you build a car that has no relation to the brand it represents the brand becomes pointless again, or when you want to kill off the car or cars that have the greatest chance of bring that brand back to relevance. You can have frugal cars, you can have frugal sporty cars, and you can have some not so frugal sporty cars. It's all about balance and not panicing.

Again, it really doesn't matter.

The point here is that car lovers are a dying breed, and 90% of the buying public buys their cars like they buy a toaster.

Market it right, offer features that they public wants, and carry a good rep.

GM caught up too late in the game- and the party is over.

We can blame different reasons- CAFE, the media, the sheeple public....

But the bottome line is change is coming.......

Will GM put out some "sporty" cars?

In due time, yes. But first they have to make money...now.

[Camino LS6]

That's not the issue here. The issue is that GM has had years to fix its brands and make them focused and profitable. Now that that was finally starting to happen, along comes CAFE and "panic mode" sets in. Instead of being rational they throw away everything but the most economical car. I'm not saying economical is bad, in fact I am happy to see it. However when you build a car that has no relation to the brand it represents the brand becomes pointless again, or when you want to kill off the car or cars that have the greatest chance of bring that brand back to relevance. You can have frugal cars, you can have frugal sporty cars, and you can have some not so frugal sporty cars. It's all about balance and not panicing.

Exactly.

Not to mention that the surviving brands under this plan are weaker than those slated for extinction. And, that GM as a whole will look like a complete lost cause the moment they announce such a plan, driving even more customers away.

This plan is a death sentence pure and simple.

[XP715]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I see redoing a lot of old Cadillacs and Chevrolet and GMC trucks in my future. I'd rather rebuild engines and weld patch panels and sand body filler for old C/Ks and DeVilles for the rest of my life before I'd ever even consider setting foot in a General Motors dealership for a new vehicle of any sort. They haven't built anything exciting or worth owning in about a decade now, and it would appear as though they could give a &#036;h&#33; less if they ever did again; this current round of decisionmaking is shaping up to be the final nail in the General's coffin.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I see redoing a lot of old Cadillacs and Chevrolet and GMC trucks in my future. I'd rather rebuild engines and weld patch panels and sand body filler for old C/Ks and DeVilles for the rest of my life before I'd ever even consider setting foot in a General Motors dealership for a new vehicle of any sort. They haven't built anything exciting or worth owning in about a decade now, and it would appear as though they could give a &#036;h&#33; less if they ever did again; this current round of decisionmaking is shaping up to be the final nail in the General's coffin.

Save me a non-HT4100 1980s Brougham or the like :AH-HA_wink:

[ocnblu]

Autoblog posted today that no more brands will be killed, but, like we've heard from Chrysler execs, models that compete with each other will be. This is something a lot of us here have hoped for... a renewed effort to focus each brand. I sincerely hope this is the path GM takes. And, to clarify, Buick Enclave and Chevy Traverse do not compete with each other. Platform sharing is a reality, and a good one. Exterior and interior design, and alternative bodystyles among brands are key to lessening divisional competition. The current Epsilons are a good example of how to focus a platform for each division. Chevy, Pontiac and SAAB Epsilons are certainly very different from each other in character. This is what GM needs to continue to capitalize on.

[XP715]

Save me a non-HT4100 1980s Brougham or the like :AH-HA_wink:

I come across a nice 1980 Fleetwood Brougham with the iron block 368 V8 from time to time; I'll keep my eyes peeled for ya!

[daves87rs]

Autoblog posted today that no more brands will be killed, but, like we've heard from Chrysler execs, models that compete with each other will be. This is something a lot of us here have hoped for... a renewed effort to focus each brand. I sincerely hope this is the path GM takes. And, to clarify, Buick Enclave and Chevy Traverse do not compete with each other. Platform sharing is a reality, and a good one. Exterior and interior design, and alternative bodystyles among brands are key to lessening divisional competition. The current Epsilons are a good example of how to focus a platform for each division. Chevy, Pontiac and SAAB Epsilons are certainly very different from each other in character. This is what GM needs to continue to capitalize on.

Kinda more of what I was saying....There will be quite a few models gone...

The Lucrene and DTS, for example.........

Though the brands are not out of the woods just yet......

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Where was that mix when you and your kind wanted to change Pontiac into an all RWD performance brand, kicking people like me out of Pontiac altogether. People who have been loyal to Pontiac since they were 10 years old. Sorry, but I have no sympathy now.

Cry me a river...

Why don't you go buy from one of the other 5 GM divisions that sells what you want?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I have a feeling the brands we are used to are going to change.....

And the product verlap will be ok if all the products look and feel different...and when they have time for more platforms, they will happen....gotta work with what they have now....

Overlap never works... Give it 5 more years of overlapping and GM will NOT be saved. Now, they have the cash and the means to save themselves, but this is it. If they eff up now, all will be lost.

[Robert Hall]

Where was that mix when you and your kind wanted to change Pontiac into an all RWD performance brand, kicking people like me out of Pontiac altogether. People who have been loyal to Pontiac since they were 10 years old. Sorry, but I have no sympathy now.

All RWD would be fine for a niche brand like Pontiac... GM has enough FWD generics in Chevrolet and Saturn to keep Avis happy...

Edited July 10, 2008 by moltar

[Toyota.vs.GM]

All RWD would be fine for a niche brand like Pontiac... GM has enough FWD generics in Chevrolet and Saturn to keep Avis happy...

Well you won't like the next Pontiac G6. :AH-HA_wink:

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't even care if the division is all RWD. Just focus the damn divisions already and get GOOD product out. It's so simple that a 7 year old could understand it.

Edited July 10, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[A Horse With No Name]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I see redoing a lot of old Cadillacs and Chevrolet and GMC trucks in my future. I'd rather rebuild engines and weld patch panels and sand body filler for old C/Ks and DeVilles for the rest of my life before I'd ever even consider setting foot in a General Motors dealership for a new vehicle of any sort. They haven't built anything exciting or worth owning in about a decade now, and it would appear as though they could give a &#036;h&#33; less if they ever did again; this current round of decisionmaking is shaping up to be the final nail in the General's coffin.

Sadly, I find myself agreeing with you.

But make mine a 65 Malibu ragtop rather than an old C/K!

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Hmm, seems to me so far that the GME crowd is only good at killing things rather than creating them.

My initial question remains unanswered.

[ocnblu]

Toyota vs. GM: please don't tell us the next G6 will be to the next Malibu as the current G5 is to the Cobalt... if so, I will cry BULL&#036;h&#33;.

[daves87rs]

Overlap never works... Give it 5 more years of overlapping and GM will NOT be saved. Now, they have the cash and the means to save themselves, but this is it. If they eff up now, all will be lost.

A few years..maybe.

And in case you didn't notice-GM has already screwed up.....

So now we wait and see, my friend........

[Camino LS6]

Screw waiting to see, I intend to be loud about it.

[ehaase]

Toyota vs. GM: please don't tell us the next G6 will be to the next Malibu as the current G5 is to the Cobalt... if so, I will cry BULL&#036;h&#33;.

PCS has already told us that is the case.

My prediction is that 3 years from now Pontiac's lineup will be Vibe, G3 (Aveo rebadge), and G6 (Malibu rebadge). Buick will have the LaCrosse and the Enclave. Either Buick or Pontiac will have a Cruze rebadge. That's it.

[wildcat]

where are his "gotta have" products?

For the Buick person, the Invicta (I'm going to presume that's the name, to use LaCrosse/Allure would be foolish) is a "gotta-have," just like the Buick Enclave. It's right up-to-date with a touch of the old Buick (sweepspear, tri-shield).

[Sixty8panther]

I'm with Camino.... (as if you expected any different?)

Get ready world, cause here comes the second coming of the Chevrolet Citation,

Pontiac J2000, Cadillac C!marron and esp. Pontiac Daewoo-Opel-LeMans.

[knightfan26917]

Where was that mix when you and your kind wanted to change Pontiac into an all RWD performance brand, kicking people like me out of Pontiac altogether. People who have been loyal to Pontiac since they were 10 years old.

But, I wonder if loyalty is a 2-way street. It should be, imho, but I get the feeling that most companies nowadays, including GM, don't really care if it is or not.

Starting with the FWD Toyota Nova/Ch#$r%*et Corolla in the 1980s, followed by the FWD Celebrity/Lumina/"monte carlo" 1995-2007, the FWD Corsica/"malibu" 1997-present, and the FWD Celebrity/Lumina/"impala" 2000-today, Ch#$r%*et has made it quite clear that loyalty is not a 2-way street.

There are people in here who bleed GM who are being left out in the cold. GM has already lost the customers who don't care about the brands. Is GM trying to lose the customers who do?

If so ... they certainly have a good 20+ year start, in some cases.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I see redoing a lot of old Cadillacs and Chevrolet and GMC trucks in my future. I'd rather rebuild engines and weld patch panels and sand body filler for old C/Ks and DeVilles for the rest of my life before I'd ever even consider setting foot in a General Motors dealership for a new vehicle of any sort. They haven't built anything exciting or worth owning in about a decade now, and it would appear as though they could give a &#036;h&#33; less if they ever did again; this current round of decisionmaking is shaping up to be the final nail in the General's coffin.

Sadly, yes.

Despite how frustrated I am with Ch#$r%*et, I don't want it to be the nail in the coffin. I like many of the products they have out now, including a few of the ones I mentioned above, but none of them are RWD. Without that, I'm not buying.....

*shrugs*

Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Didn't I tell you?" ... Colbie Caillat ... 'Realize'