Z/28 cancelled?

[A Horse With No Name]

I don't know about a hybrid Camaro...

But I can kinda see the logic in delaying/cancelling the SS. If the Economy continues its meltdown, they won't be selling very many of them.

That being said, I hope they keep the SS.

Chris

[aurora97]

"The logic seems bass akwards. If they wanted to steal thunder, they would officially anounce a high performance model, or release specs, or something like taht [sic], not start a rumor of cancelation."

There is a reason why its called "reverse" psychology. To have GM simply announce a high performance Z28 model means the focus stays on the Challenger in the media which will be out one year before the Camaro. In order to keep people "emotionally invested" in the existence of the Z28 Camaro, then one "threatens" its cancellation. The media has a new story to write about the drama at GM making the story about the soon-to-be-on-the-market Challenger irrelevant.

[prinzSD]

"The logic seems bass akwards. If they wanted to steal thunder, they would officially anounce a high performance model, or release specs, or something like taht [sic], not start a rumor of cancelation."

There is a reason why its called "reverse" psychology. To have GM simply announce a high performance Z28 model means the focus stays on the Challenger in the media which will be out one year before the Camaro. In order to keep people "emotionally invested" in the existence of the Z28 Camaro, then one "threatens" its cancellation. The media has a new story to write about the drama at GM making the story about the soon-to-be-on-the-market Challenger irrelevant.

I could have sworn I saw a new red Challenger in Antioch, California last Thursday ( July 3). Are they not out on the streets? Everyone at the intersection was pointing at the car...perhaps we were all fooled and it was a 70s Challenger, thought the poportions were more modern.

[smk4565]

Z28 used to be below SS. I think the LS3 is plenty of motor for the Camaro, that is still 400-430 hp. Those that want more can go to the Corvette. If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette? They should worry more about keeping weight down. The base 3.5 liter pushrod V6, which they figured was unfit for the Malibu, but it's still good enough for the Camaro? I can't get too excited about a 2010 Camaro with the same V6 in the 2004 Malibu. They need something new like Ford's Ecoboost that has economy and power. The 3.6 DI engine is a good mid-range engine, although gas mileage on it isn't that great.

The 2.0 DI turbo only gets 20-21 mpg combined, that isn't good enough either, the Hyundai Genesis V8 gets 20 mpg combined.

[Intrepidation]

Z28 used to be below SS. I think the LS3 is plenty of motor for the Camaro, that is still 400-430 hp. Those that want more can go to the Corvette. If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette? They should worry more about keeping weight down. The base 3.5 liter pushrod V6, which they figured was unfit for the Malibu, but it's still good enough for the Camaro? I can't get too excited about a 2010 Camaro with the same V6 in the 2004 Malibu. They need something new like Ford's Ecoboost that has economy and power. The 3.6 DI engine is a good mid-range engine, although gas mileage on it isn't that great.

The 2.0 DI turbo only gets 20-21 mpg combined, that isn't good enough either, the Hyundai Genesis V8 gets 20 mpg combined.

Last I heard the 3.6 was the base engine for the Camaro. I don't know what reality you pull your information from, but it's not this one. Until official pecs are released, anything we haven't see regarding powertrains are just rumors.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Dragon]

I could have sworn I saw a new red Challenger in Antioch, California last Thursday ( July 3). Are they not out on the streets? Everyone at the intersection was pointing at the car...perhaps we were all fooled and it was a 70s Challenger, thought the poportions were more modern.

ya, they are out, been in production since may I think. actually saw one the other day while I was on my way to visit my buddy who works at Brampton.

[Dragon]

If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette?

apples & oranges. some people like the look/feel of a muscle car over that of a sports car.

not too mention the nostalgia, heritage of the new Camaro.

[Northstar]

Z28 used to be below SS. I think the LS3 is plenty of motor for the Camaro, that is still 400-430 hp. Those that want more can go to the Corvette. If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette? They should worry more about keeping weight down. The base 3.5 liter pushrod V6, which they figured was unfit for the Malibu, but it's still good enough for the Camaro? I can't get too excited about a 2010 Camaro with the same V6 in the 2004 Malibu. They need something new like Ford's Ecoboost that has economy and power. The 3.6 DI engine is a good mid-range engine, although gas mileage on it isn't that great.

The 2.0 DI turbo only gets 20-21 mpg combined, that isn't good enough either, the Hyundai Genesis V8 gets 20 mpg combined.

The Camaro is getting the 3.6 standard. Obviously people snapped up $50k GT500s when they could have had a Vette too... Different strokes for different folks.

[Intrepidation]

I wonder if smk ever gets tired of being wrong?

[dcs]

I like DEFELT' S idea of a two mode hybrid..., green plus power ala lexus400h.

The hybrid would automatically be good press for GM, WHERE as now as soon as A 6.2L Z28 is released there will be bad press about another "gas guzzler from GM".

They could always sneak a 6.2l type version later, well after the"good press coverage".

[wildpaws]

As far as engine choices are concerned for the different Camaro models, I always thought that the SS was supposed to have a bigger engine than the Z28. Look at the first generation engine/model choices; 302 V8 for the Z28 and 396 V8 for the SS. I know that gas prices and EPA restrictions have put a hold on a wider selection of V8s for car makers. However, I was hoping that GM would make the 5.3L block in the Truck line as a car application for the new Impala SS and Camaro platform. GM could easily have the 5.3L V8 have an output of 360 hp. That would make the the top level Camaro more desireable as a performance car. Instead of using the new 6.2L V8 Supercharged engine, there is still the ZO6 7.0L V8 for the Camaro.

The first gen. differences between the SS and Z/28 was so much more than cubic inch displacement of the engine (and BTW the base SS engine was the 350 cid, 396 cid was optional). The first gen. SS was basically a drag race type of car, high performance engine and set up for pretty much straight line performance. The Z/28 was essentially a road race car (put into production to homologate it for SCCA TransAm Sedan Races), high revving SBC (had to be under the SCCA 305 cid limit), suspension set up for curves, body sat two inches lower than the SS even though the SS had 14" wheels and the Z/28 had 15" wheels. Totally different animals designed with different purposes in mind. I'm also not sure of what the fifth gen. Z/28 would have been, track performer or drag car, I'm feel that Chevy's purposes in this day and age are completely different than they were in '67-"69.

Clyde

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I like DEFELT' S idea of a two mode hybrid..., green plus power ala lexus400h.

The hybrid would automatically be good press for GM, WHERE as now as soon as A 6.2L Z28 is released there will be bad press about another "gas guzzler from GM".

They could always sneak a 6.2l type version later, well after the"good press coverage".

I agree about the 2 mode hybrid..

However, GM cannot let the press dictate its choices like that. Acura is going full speed ahead with a V8 sports car. The Germans are still going to build V8 luxury cars... etc...etc...

If GM allows itself to be "controlled" out of the market, then the battle against them is already won. No performance Camaro is a dumb move (Not everyone wants a Vette, just like not everyone wants a Chevrolet) If the Z28 were to flood the market with 30,000 cars, then I could see the logic of canceling it. But at 5,000 cars?!?! Really?!?! Not having a V8 in Cadillacs is suicide, especially when you're still trying to be noticed over MB and BMW, not to mention when Infiniti is beating down your door. Shutting down/eliminating all of your real trucks is ignorance when people still need them and will still buy them in pretty big numbers and the programs cost pennies to make (Compared to thing s such as... NEW SAABS that will never provide the same return)

GM is basically regulating itself into an also ran. GM is giving up. GM is doing exactly what the anti-Detroit media and loud motuhs want; they're laying on their back and taking it.

On a related note; why does the Z28 have to be a 'bling-bling' Shelby KR competitor? (ala ZR1, except in a different bracket) Why not decontent an SS, give it a bit of a performance bump to make it the fastest and most track ready car in the camaro stable and sell it that way? (ala Z06) The Z28 was NEVER meant to be a show off piece, it was meant to be a track car. I love the GT500KR as much as anyone here, but it's pretty much useless in the grand scheme of things. I can mod a GT or GT500 to go much faster for probably less money.

Edited July 12, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[cletus8269]

Z28 used to be below SS.

If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette?

A) true but thankfully that hierarchy snafu from the 90's is fixed long live the king of the camaro hill

B) 4 people cant ride in a vette

i do agree 400+ hp is plenty enough to get anyone into trouble

[cletus8269]

The Z/28 was essentially a road race car (put into production to homologate it for SCCA TransAm Sedan Races), high revving SBC (had to be under the SCCA 305 cid limit), suspension set up for curves, body sat two inches lower than the SS even though the SS had 14" wheels and the Z/28 had 15" wheels. Totally different animals designed with different purposes in mind. I'm also not sure of what the fifth gen. Z/28 would have been, track performer or drag car, I'm feel that Chevy's purposes in this day and age are completely different than they were in '67-"69.

Clyde

with the new camaro, mustang, and challenger all out, it would be awesome to see a revitalized trans am racing series again. only thing missing is a javelin

[02ChevySS]

I agree about the 2 mode hybrid..

However, GM cannot let the press dictate its choices like that. Acura is going full speed ahead with a V8 sports car. The Germans are still going to build V8 luxury cars... etc...etc...

If GM allows itself to be "controlled" out of the market, then the battle against them is already won. No performance Camaro is a dumb move (Not everyone wants a Vette, just like not everyone wants a Chevrolet) If the Z28 were to flood the market with 30,000 cars, then I could see the logic of canceling it. But at 5,000 cars?!?! Really?!?! Not having a V8 in Cadillacs is suicide, especially when you're still trying to be noticed over MB and BMW, not to mention when Infiniti is beating down your door. Shutting down/eliminating all of your real trucks is ignorance when people still need them and will still buy them in pretty big numbers and the programs cost pennies to make (Compared to thing s such as... NEW SAABS that will never provide the same return)

GM is basically regulating itself into an also ran. GM is giving up. GM is doing exactly what the anti-Detroit media and loud motuhs want; they're laying on their back and taking it.

On a related note; why does the Z28 have to be a 'bling-bling' Shelby KR competitor? (ala ZR1, except in a different bracket) Why not decontent an SS, give it a bit of a performance bump to make it the fastest and most track ready car in the camaro stable and sell it that way? (ala Z06) The Z28 was NEVER meant to be a show off piece, it was meant to be a track car. I love the GT500KR as much as anyone here, but it's pretty much useless in the grand scheme of things. I can mod a GT or GT500 to go much faster for probably less money.

The internet is a funny place. Anybody can post anything and some will always interpret it as the truth and some will interpret it as a lie/propaganda.

For those who are active in this forum in the link below, they know exactly who this person is. Much more reliable than some of the other employees on this site.

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.p...p;postcount=183

Edited July 12, 2008 by 02ChevySS

[hyperv6]

I learned a long time ago that just because you may work for GM or may be highly placed it does not mean you know what is going on.

GM is a big place and they don't tell everyone everything.

Edited July 12, 2008 by hyperv6

[longtooth]

Even as I am restoring my very own 'street-sweeper' vintage '93 Z28...oh the pain, oh the exclusivity. Oh, drat!!!!!

[Camino LS6]

Well, I'm certain that we will see a Z/28.

It may not be the Z/28 we expect though.

I'm also certain that there will be other "special" Camaros.

[daves87rs]

Well, I'm certain that we will see a Z/28.

It may not be the Z/28 we expect though.

I'm also certain that there will be other "special" Camaros.

I hope so...

[zhawk]

As far as engine choices are concerned for the different Camaro models, I always thought that the SS was supposed to have a bigger engine than the Z28. Look at the first generation engine/model choices; 302 V8 for the Z28 and 396 V8 for the SS. I know that gas prices and EPA restrictions have put a hold on a wider selection of V8s for car makers. However, I was hoping that GM would make the 5.3L block in the Truck line as a car application for the new Impala SS and Camaro platform. GM could easily have the 5.3L V8 have an output of 360 hp. That would make the the top level Camaro more desireable as a performance car. Instead of using the new 6.2L V8 Supercharged engine, there is still the ZO6 7.0L V8 for the Camaro.

Ask any Camaro enthusiast which he/she would prefer a 69 Z/28 with the DZ302 or a 69 SS with and motor in a SS and guess which one they'll be more likely to choose. The Z/28 was a special option. It was something different. In the words of a man very close to the Camaro program, "Anything can be an SS but only a Camaro can be a Z/28." Don't be fooled by the 4th gens that had the SS as a modified Z28. Look at the history. The Z/28 is still special and will remain so.

That's why having the Z/28 being a special edition with more power makes sense, it goes back to the roots and meanings of the Z/28.

As for the new 6.2L Supercharged versus the 7.0L, if I remember correctly, the 6.2L is much cheaper to build. Heck, look at buying both engines aftermarket. The 6.2L supercharged is already cheaper than the 7.0L.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm still a fan of my idea from a few years ago.

Chevrolet should build a whole line of performance coupes (only) under the Z moniker. Z06, ZR1, Z28 and a Z moniker Cobalt/Cruze coupe would be pretty cool and could make HUGE headway into the performance market.

Of course, I brought this idea up when GM was whoring out the SS name. Now that it takes 'a little more' to be an SS, it might not work as well.

[Blake Noble]

... a Z moniker Cobalt/Cruze coupe would be pretty cool and could make HUGE headway into the performance market.

Z24?

[hyperv6]

As it stands today the SS is the standard perfromance car for Chevy and anything with a Z will be the uber performance car. IT fits right intop a pattern that makes sense. They also finally have made the SS mean performance again and not the sitcker package as has been on some vehicles.

Just be prepared as the Camaro is going to be mosrtly Marketed as a V6 Coupe. This was the plan long before the spike in gas prices. As Scott Settlmire pointed out they need to sell the many more coupes to the people who don't care about performance such as women that want a stylish car the is fun, comfortable and affordable to drive. The 4thgen was not appealing to women ingenerl and GM left 50%+ of the market on the table.

So understand when you don't see advertising of a smokey burn out and just standard coupes this is the car they need to work on to sell/ THe SS and Z will sell not matter what as the people interested in them know what they are and what they can do.

Scott said many of the cross over people will be lost if they see an ad for just performance driving. As he pointed out that the Camaro is back to it's roots where it is not a car for everyone and not just some niche of performance. The majority of 67-69 cars were not SS/Z28 as most were small V8 or inline six Coupes.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

As it stands today the SS is the standard perfromance car for Chevy and anything with a Z will be the uber performance car. IT fits right intop a pattern that makes sense. They also finally have made the SS mean performance again and not the sitcker package as has been on some vehicles.

Just be prepared as the Camaro is going to be mosrtly Marketed as a V6 Coupe. This was the plan long before the spike in gas prices. As Scott Settlmire pointed out they need to sell the many more coupes to the people who don't care about performance such as women that want a stylish car the is fun, comfortable and affordable to drive. The 4thgen was not appealing to women ingenerl and GM left 50%+ of the market on the table.

So understand when you don't see advertising of a smokey burn out and just standard coupes this is the car they need to work on to sell/ THe SS and Z will sell not matter what as the people interested in them know what they are and what they can do.

Scott said many of the cross over people will be lost if they see an ad for just performance driving. As he pointed out that the Camaro is back to it's roots where it is not a car for everyone and not just some niche of performance. The majority of 67-69 cars were not SS/Z28 as most were small V8 or inline six Coupes.

I think that's spot on too...

I've never been one of those people who thinks every car should be V8 & RWD. I just want the OPTION of a V8 on a RWD car. As far as I'm concerned, GM should do the same thing with the G8. Make the V8 the top of the line halo car and beef up the V6 and sell the crap out of V6 equiped cars. Market it against the top Avalon, Maxima and LX cars as a "better driving, more efficient performance car" and watch them fly off of the lots. Zeta is SO MUCH MORE than a sweet V8 powertrain.

Now, when we start saying V8s will not be OPTIONAL equipment; that's when I get pissed.

Edited July 13, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Intrepidation]

Autoblog reports it dead:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/14/alas-z-...ew-ye/#comments

[hyperv6]

Autoblog reports it dead:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/14/alas-z-...ew-ye/#comments

Autoblog often is a day late on news. I am not going to say GM may not change their mind but untill you hear it from them we need to just wait and see.

I will post again the last know statment from a GM rep working on the Camaro. FYI: Scotts statment was after the Left Lane News post on 7/11.

Originally Posted by Fbodfather

I posted this on another site -- and I'll post it here.

I am not doubting that Jim got a telephone call from someone -- but I don't know who that is -- and rumors are running rampant here in the Motor City right now -- so --if it makes you feel better -- send a note as SuperChevy is asking you to do ---

now -- that said: without further ado:

"...........Articles like this really put me up the wall -- past the pictures -- and on to the ceiling.

The Camaro (and Z28) is not Dead.

(......in my opinion, there are some in the enthusiast community that hope it does die -- esp. on certain sites -- and that confounds me........not to mention giving a dangerous boost to my blood pressure......)

I don't know how these things get life -- but let me assure EVERYONE -- that every car and truck program out there is on the table right now -- and I think I can safely say that this is the case at the other two American manufacturers -- all one has to do is to look at what's happening to new vehicle sales -- coupled with the housing meltdown -- the budget deficit -- the elections -- the Dow Jones Industrials down by a breathtaking amount -- and of course, high energy costs that are forcing the price of everything upward................

Let us take a quick walk down memory lane - shall we?

The year is 1979 -- interest rates are double digit -- energy costs and inflation are spiraling out of control.......people are "upside down" on their loans for pickups and large cars................

.....................and yet Chevrolet somehow sold 282,000 Camaros -- TEN years into a lifecycle.

Yes -- the times are different -- but I'm betting that when people see the production car -- they see the value that the car offers -- and they see the fuel economy -- we'll sell a lot of 'em.

........I said a long time ago "Have Faith" -- and that's what I'm saying once again.

Untill we hear Scott or one of the other GM people who are working on this program say different we just need to relax.

My guess at what Scott stated is the car is still on. But, I fear the price is becoming even more a factor. The Z price was getting high before we started to see prices of cars to climb and I suspect the Camaro has reached a point it is a real problem. My hunch is they are looking for ways to reduce the cost.

The Z/28 I sure will appear in some form but it may change from what was originally planned. This is just my guess based on Scott statment. I think the car is under review more than canceled?

Either way if Scott said it is not canceled yet I will wait till he says different or some other Camaro rep offically speaks.

Edited July 15, 2008 by hyperv6

[Blake Noble]

Yes, don't place all of your egg's in the "Dead Z/28" basket just yet. Keep your reservations for the time being, as with all of the other news regarding GM.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well, really...

I mean, why do we need a super expensive Camaro anyway? Surely GM can find a better scenario for the Z/28 moniker. If people want a high priced Chevrolet show piece, they can buy a Z06 or ZR1.

[cletus8269]

Well, really...

I mean, why do we need a super expensive Camaro anyway? Surely GM can find a better scenario for the Z/28 moniker. If people want a high priced Chevrolet show piece, they can buy a Z06 or ZR1.

ladies and gentleman of the jury i present to you:

exhibit A:

exhibit B:

exhibit C:

exhibit D for (Dodge):

list goes on and on. keep em down to 500 a year ala 70 boss 429 mustang just dont lose money on each one like they did then.

Edited July 15, 2008 by cletus8269

[zhawk]

Well, really...

I mean, why do we need a super expensive Camaro anyway? Surely GM can find a better scenario for the Z/28 moniker. If people want a high priced Chevrolet show piece, they can buy a Z06 or ZR1.

Well, maybe you don't but there are people out there willing to spend the money and get a faster Camaro.

[hyperv6]

All this could be going on to make sure the car is not more expensive a Shelby.

Also it could be as simple as the fact GM may not build the Z in house and farm it our to some one like SLP or Saleen.

Thereis a place for theis car but you have to make it so it is cheaper than a LS3 Vette. As the price climbs the options for some serious other cars start to climb and will reduce the market.

[z28luvr01]

How about this, given today's climate?

SS: LS3

Z/28: turbo or bi-turbo 3.6L DI

I'd target both around 435-450hp. They'd obviously drive like completely different animals and appeal to different customers. Plus, performance-wise it'd be hard to choose a true "top dog".

[z28luvr01]

Not to start a SS - Z/28 debate, but I gave the Z the six because the Z for the first two generations was the small engined free revving track star while the SS was the high horsepower brute with the biggest V8 available.

[Camino LS6]

Not to start a SS - Z/28 debate, but I gave the Z the six because the Z for the first two generations was the small engined free revving track star while the SS was the high horsepower brute with the biggest V8 available.

True enough.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see this approach used on an Alpha Camaro next time around.

This gen, not so much. But, from all reports, the V6 is really something this time and could lay the groundwork for an idea like yours by gaining a really good performance rep.

[loki]

How about this, given today's climate?

SS: LS3

Z/28: turbo or bi-turbo 3.6L DI

I'd target both around 435-450hp. They'd obviously drive like completely different animals and appeal to different customers. Plus, performance-wise it'd be hard to choose a true "top dog".

Like ford did in aussie land? *thinking of that clip of the ford vs holden that was posted a week ago*

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

How about this, given today's climate?

Z/28: LS3

SS: turbo or bi-turbo 3.6L DI

I'd target both around 435-450hp. They'd obviously drive like completely different animals and appeal to different customers. Plus, performance-wise it'd be hard to choose a true "top dog".

*FIXED

I think the Z moniker fits better as the top of the line since the Z06 and ZR1 are so extreme. And the SS fits better with the turbo Cobalt and HHR SS.

[Camino LS6]

*FIXED

I think the Z moniker fits better as the top of the line since the Z06 and ZR1 are so extreme. And the SS fits better with the turbo Cobalt and HHR SS.

That certainly fits with current marketing, but I think Z may have the Z/28's historical place in the market well-translated to tomorrow.

EDIT: The 5th gen Z/28 will likely be as you say, FOG.