Cali fornia leads the way

[cletus8269]

now we base laws on something not definatively backed by scientific proof?

OAKLAND, Calif. -- California is making it mandatory for cars to be labeled with global warming scores, figures that take into account emissions from vehicle use and fuel production.

The law requiring the labels goes into effect at the start of next year for all 2009 model cars, though its expected the labels will be popping up on cars in the coming months.

The labeling law forces cars for sale to display a global warming score, on a scale of one to 10, which is based on how vehicles in the same model year compare to one another. The higher the score, the cleaner a car is. The score takes into account emissions related to production of fuel for each vehicle as well as the direct emissions from vehicles.

The score will be displayed next to the already-required smog score, which also rates cars one to 10 for how many smog-forming emissions they emit. For both scores, an average vehicle will have a score of five.

California is the first state of pass such as law, and a similar law will take effect in New York for 2010 model year vehicles. Global warming scores will be included on the state's DriveClean website.

While this law is intended to help consumers take into account emissions while purchasing cars, a proposed law in the European Union would require E.U. public sector bodies put a price on emissions.

A law endorsed by the European Parliament's Committee on Environment, Public Health and Food Safety would make governments put a monetary cost on the emissions of vehicles they plan to purchase, and add that to expense calculations. The law would exclude certain types of vehicles, such as ambulances and fire trucks.

http://www.greenbiz.com/news/2008/07/07/ca...l-warming-score

[Croc]

Yes, there is a lot of proof. I've been a skeptic for a long time on this, but we do need to lessen whatever impact it is we are making on the planet. I don't think there's anyone out there who seriously believes we are making zero impact on the global environment, so we should at least try to lessen it.

[balthazar]

Well guess what: there definately are people who seriously believe humans cannot have a measurable effect on climate change- a lot of them. I not heard that even a single point of "proof" has been unilaterally agreed apon, either.

[Robert Hall]

Well guess what: there definately are people who seriously believe humans cannot have a measurable effect on climate change- a lot of them. I not heard that even a single point of "proof" has been unilaterally agreed apon, either.

Yes, lots of delusional people in the world. I have no idea how much of an effect humans have on the climate, but I'm sure there is some measurable impact that the billions of people and manufacturing, transportation, etc have had on the climate since the beginning of the industrial age...

[Croc]

Well guess what: there definately are people who seriously believe humans cannot have a measurable effect on climate change- a lot of them. I not heard that even a single point of "proof" has been unilaterally agreed apon, either.

I said "zero impact" now didn't I?

[CARBIZ]

I am following the ongoing G8 summit in Japan. Japan and Europe are pressing for more 'carbon taxes,' while Canada and the US are dubious. Finally, officials are waking up to the fact that unless China and India are signatories to ANY agreement, it doesn't matter a hill of beans what California, or North America does.

Frankly, I am getting more and more disgusted with all of this stuff about 'global warming' and food shortages, etc. Things were fine until India and China decided they wanted to go all middle class on us. Sure, they have a right to pursue liberty and happiness (whatever the hell that means!) like the rest of us, but we also have the right to tell them to zipper their pants! Everything we buy is going to suddenly get very expensive because Asia and south Asia suddenly have money (our money, I might add) and are going on shopping sprees.

Why are we suddenly fighting over diminishing oil and foodstocks, not to mention other resources like zinc, copper, nickel, etc. when the REAL solution would be for about half a billion Chinese and Indians to go away? Fat chance. Like that is going to happen, without a famine or war.

California can do what it wants, but as usual this is just more window dressing.

[regfootball]

so many things wrong with this bull$h! its not even funny but look where its coming from. no need to explain it, after you take that into account.

[loki]

this wouldn't be a problem if the EPA was shut down and people/businesses could be taken to court for REAL pollution.....not just handing them fees to pay.

[cletus8269]

Yes, there is a lot of proof. I've been a skeptic for a long time on this, but we do need to lessen whatever impact it is we are making on the planet. I don't think there's anyone out there who seriously believes we are making zero impact on the global environment, so we should at least try to lessen it.

Well guess what: there definately are people who seriously believe humans cannot have a measurable effect on climate change- a lot of them. I not heard that even a single point of "proof" has been unilaterally agreed apon, either.

Yes, lots of delusional people in the world. I have no idea how much of an effect humans have on the climate, but I'm sure there is some measurable impact that the billions of people and manufacturing, transportation, etc have had on the climate since the beginning of the industrial age...

eh, maybe i should have specified with that opening statement. Al Gore's mew religion is a farse, i do believe we are irrepairably damaging the planet at an alarming rate but as far as ice caps and glaciers and we're all gonna fry or drown... records show a history of all thats taking place now, taking place eons ago. where did the great lakes come from? retreating glaciers... what caused that global warming?

Edited July 8, 2008 by cletus8269

[Camino LS6]

I'm so glad that I don't live in California... or Europe for that matter.

Half-baked window dressing BS.

[Croc]

eh, maybe i should have specified with that opening statement. Al Gore's mew religion is a farse, i do believe we are irrepairably damaging the planet at an alarming rate but as far as ice caps and glaciers and we're all gonna fry or drown... records show a history of all thats taking place now, taking place eons ago. where did the great lakes come from? retreating glaciers... what caused that global warming?

Bingo.

[Newbiewar]

good news is, a vehicle like the prius will lose a lot of sales over such a sticker... it will hurt any vehicle with a large battery in it... and cali is the number one place toyota does business if i remember correctly... this could be a good thing or a bad thing who knows... it doesnt really favor any one automaker, except might help with GM if they truely dont have land fills anymore and they have started using solar power as they had said they were going to...

[balthazar]

Well guess what: there definately are people who seriously believe humans cannot have a measurable effect on climate change- a lot of them.

I said "zero impact" now didn't I?

Well, if you can't measure it (like I said), how do you know it's NOT zero ?

[Intrepidation]

I look forward to the day of ultimate Irony when California sinks into the Pacific.

[cletus8269]

I look forward to the day of ultimate Irony when California sinks into the Pacific.

or in that end of the world flash animation, goes to hang with hawaii... alaska can come too.

[bobo]

California is the most progressive state in the Union. As usual, the rest of the country will come around eventually.

[Croc]

Well, if you can't measure it (like I said), how do you know it's NOT zero ?

Re-read my original post, quoted below (emphasis added):

Yes, there is a lot of proof. I've been a skeptic for a long time on this, but we do need to lessen whatever impact it is we are making on the planet. I don't think there's anyone out there who seriously believes we are making zero impact on the global environment, so we should at least try to lessen it.

I can see a measurable difference in the air quality of Los Angeles between now and prior to the Clean Air Act.

From when CFCs were targeted in the late 1980s until now, the hole in the ozone layer trended toward closing--optimistic predictions said around 2050. Is that just a strange coincidence?

Polar ice caps have always formed and shrunk as part of the natural cycle; no one disputes that. What is disputed is whether or not the marked increase in accelerated depletion of the polar ice caps is attributable to humans. Those who think so cite the fact that this marked acceleration perfectly coincides with the onset of the industrial revolution.

Another indisputable fact is that the sun's intensity is a lot greater today than it was 50 years ago. The reason the push for SPF is so great these days is because of the state of the ozone layer: less UV light is being filtered out before it reaches us on the ground. The ozone hole is over New Zealand and southern Chile--it isn't just a funny coincidence that those two areas have the highest rates of skin cancer in the world.

Now, do I agree with the Al Gore hysteria? No. But there is definitely some truth in it, and we have a responsibility to try and do something to reverse it. Previous generations were ignorant as to the effects of industry on the planet--but the greater crime is to know what we do actually know today, and choose to ignore it for selfish reasons.

[balthazar]

>>"From when CFCs were targeted in the late 1980s until now, the hole in the ozone layer trended toward closing--optimistic predictions said around 2050. Is that just a strange coincidence?"<<

>>"this marked acceleration perfectly coincides with the onset of the industrial revolution."<<

Again- where is the proof? 'Coinciding' is not scientific proof, it's an assumption. Is it unreasonable to request facts of Science?

BTW- the ozonelayer/CFC scenario is almost as riddled with questionable claims and theories as global warming. Levels of UV-B radiation (screened by ozone) reaching Earth has been trending downward for the last 60 years. Chlorine (a component of CFCs) is blamed for the ozone issue, yet the world's ocean's emit on the order of 80,000 times the levels of chlorine than CFCs did before being checked.

What were the status's of international patent rights to CFC production circa 1990?? Follow the money...

[CARBIZ]

And how exactly can the ozone hole be closing if China emits more CFCs than we did 20 years ago? They still use freon over there, BTW.

Again, 3 or 4 billion people can do what they want on this planet. Seven billion cannot. It just pisses me off that I will probably have to drive a go-kart one day soon because 1.3 billion Chinese want to be middle class.

That is the real elephant in the room.

[SoCalCTS]

I look forward to the day of ultimate Irony when California sinks into the Pacific.

This is highly unlikely. California is a very mountainous state. Luckily, most of the low-lying "rest of the country" will disappear into the oceans first.

What makes people outside of California so ignorant? Really, I am serious here. Is it in your water or what? Global warming may not be definitively proven but it’s the best theory out there. What theory do you guys ascribe to? That we have absolutely no effect on the atmosphere? Were your forefathers the same people that thought the whales and buffalo would last forever too? Luckily, someone stepped in and stepped up.

America and the rest

Edited July 8, 2008 by SoCalCTS

[Croc]

Agreed.

Balthazar: When you put a positively-charged magnet next to another positively-charged magnet, the repelling perfectly coincides with the placement. Clearly there's no correlation whatsoever

[Camino LS6]

California is the most obnoxious state in the Union. As usual, the rest of the country will come around eventually.

Fixed.

[Blake Noble]

This is highly unlikely. California is a very mountainous state. Luckily, most of the low-lying "rest of the country" will disappear into the oceans first.

What makes people outside of California so ignorant? Really, I am serious here. Is it in your water or what? Global warming may not be definitively proven but it’s the best theory out there. What theory do you guys ascribe to? That we have absolutely no effect on the atmosphere? Were your forefathers the same people that thought the whales and buffalo would last forever too? Luckily, someone stepped in and stepped up.

America and the rest

Poor guy, all the heat from those forest fires must be getting to you.

[cletus8269]

Were your forefathers the same people that thought the whales and buffalo would last forever too? Luckily, someone stepped in and stepped up.

thats right, now that we cut back on whaling, japan has doubled their efforts... endangered species be darned.

no amount of policing by a handful of nations will offset the rest of the world, it helps but we are just turning into the wind and dropping our collective pants in the long run.

Edited July 9, 2008 by cletus8269

[SoCalCTS]

Poor guy, all the heat from those forest fires must be getting to you.

Actually, its news like this that is getting to me... Cheney's office tried to alter greenhouse gas testimony, former official says

and all those dang, forest fires as a result of global warming... oh well, beats flooding any day.

[Blake Noble]

Actually, its news like this that is getting to me... Cheney's office tried to alter greenhouse gas testimony, former official says

When I read that article, I'll be frank with you, while the fact of any possible government cover-up does bother me, the fact that the cover-up dealt with another report of Global Warming propaganda did not bother me in the least bit. While it is my opinion that we should take steps to protect and better our environment, it should not be done with such scare tactics like the Theory of Global Warming and neo-communist legislation.

No disrespect meant to your opinion, mind you, that's just how I feel. I'm not totally buying into something that is not 100 percent scientifically proven but is treated as such by many an ignorant suit in politics. Like a great mind once said, "Think for yourself, question authority."

and all those dang, forest fires as a result of global warming... oh well, beats flooding any day.

Are you sure that those forest fires weren't started by a 13 year-old on a camping trip with mom's grill lighter and some old dried leaves?

Edited July 9, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Newbiewar]

well the problem with things like global warming, or climate changes, they happen with or without humans existance, and weather or not we have accelorated or decellorated the process is yet to be determined... global warming is a billion dollar buisness and the words of politians or scientists are backed by profit not by solid proof... it has been analyzed since 1850, and in which global temperatures have raised around 1-2* according to the most recent article that i have read... yet, when you think the last ice age was in the late 1700's durring our independance war, of course temperatures are going to rise from an ice age, but you will actually find that global warming encourages ice ages... its a stupid cycle, but as things heat up, the atmosphere fills with clouds & moisture, and eventually the effects of the sun are canceled by a thick layer of water vapor, eventaully the temperature drops, dramatically, and all the water that was retained in the atmosphere falls and it takes many years before the sun can heat the temperatures back up from a non frozen state... that is why we are noticing hotter summers and colder winters, they said that this year the polor caps might completely melt, well if anyone remembered this past winter, they said they were the biggest they'd been for some couple decades...

like i said, take everything you read with a grain of salt, if you were an enviornmentalist, and collectively in america it profited a billion plus dollars annually and over 5 billion in countries like england... you'd realize not everything that is said is 100% accurate.

[cletus8269]

not to hijack my own thread but

Actually, global warming is likely to continue—but the interruption of the recent strong warming trend sharply undercuts the argument that our global warming is an urgent, man-made emergency. The seven-year decline makes our warming look much more like the moderate, erratic warming to be expected when the planet naturally shifts from a Little Ice Age (1300–1850 AD) to a centuries-long warm phase like the Medieval Warming (950–1300 AD) or the Roman Warming (200 BC– 600 AD).

http://acuf.org/issues/issue62/060624cul.asp

[CARBIZ]

Whether one believes WE are the cause of global warning or not, I cannot help but wonder where we are heading when I see the likes of the front page of the National Post today: a nice shot of the Beijing skyline completely obscured by air pollution. The waters around the Olympic sites are so heavily polluted with algae that special nets are being installed to keep the algae out. Literally hundreds of tons of the green soup are being scooped out of the water.

Yech.

That could have been our future, if provisional steps weren't taken 35 years ago.

[Intrepidation]

and all those dang, forest fires as a result of global warming... oh well, beats flooding any day.

Yes, because clearly forest fires didn't exist before "global warming".

[Newbiewar]

Yes, because clearly forest fires didn't exist before "global warming".

yea if i remember correctly those forrest fires were caused by rain storms & lightning... damn those hot temperatures!

[regfootball]

Whether one believes WE are the cause of global warning or not, I cannot help but wonder where we are heading when I see the likes of the front page of the National Post today: a nice shot of the Beijing skyline completely obscured by air pollution. The waters around the Olympic sites are so heavily polluted with algae that special nets are being installed to keep the algae out. Literally hundreds of tons of the green soup are being scooped out of the water.

Yech.

That could have been our future, if provisional steps weren't taken 35 years ago.

tell the chinese to make freaking ethanol from all that algae then

[SoCalCTS]

yea if i remember correctly those forrest fires were caused by rain storms & lightning... damn those hot temperatures!

The fire season has extened 71 days in the last 40 years and the acreage burnt has more than doubled. This is more evidence that something is going on. Even if the fires were started by lightning, that is still more evidence that the weather is changing.

Edited July 10, 2008 by SoCalCTS

[Farkas]

Serious question alert:

Will any car get a perfect score? Almost all vehicles in America run on a fossil fuel, so they all contribute to increased pollution (notice I didn't say the "dirty phrase"). Even the Prius uses it's gasoline engine, so it can't get a 10.

[cletus8269]

Serious question alert:

Will any car get a perfect score? Almost all vehicles in America run on a fossil fuel, so they all contribute to increased pollution (notice I didn't say the "dirty phrase"). Even the Prius uses it's gasoline engine, so it can't get a 10.

i know of one,

on a serious note though i think only the hydrogen fuel cells would come close.

[Intrepidation]

The fire season has extened 71 days in the last 40 years and the acreage burnt has more than doubled. This is more evidence that something is going on. Even if the fires were started by lightning, that is still more evidence that the weather is changing.

Climate change has been going on since the Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago.

I'm not saying that overzealous pollution is good and isn't having any sort of effect, and I think we should use moderation, recycle, and all of that good stuff. However, this global warming hysteria exactly that: a blown out of proportion tool used by a few nutcase scientists, and more importantly politicians, to scare the gullible populous.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Dodgefan