The Volt

[HarleyEarl]

Do any of you think this vehicle will actually happen and actually sell?

There has been much hype in the news.

I wonder.

I'll bet it's not going to happen as soon as they say if ever.

But it sure gives GM good PR.

My forecast is that GM will perfect and refine their hybrids and leave it at that.

[PurdueGuy]

I think it will happen, maybe on time, maybe up to a year late, and I think it will be close to what they hoped for in every aspect but cost. They've already had to increase the predicted cost, and may have to do so some more. Question is whether it's going to cost too much for anyone to care, or will the greenies buy anything that has a strong "green" image. I hear a lot of everyday Joes wanting to buy the Volt when it comes out - I think they're going to be upset when it costs more than they'd hoped.

Edited July 2, 2008 by PurdueGuy

[ZL-1]

I think it will happen and it will be a great PR tool, as long as people get the 40-mile all-electric range in real-world driving conditions. Profitability is something that is probably best left undiscussed for now.

Edited July 2, 2008 by ZL-1

[Oracle of Delphi]

If you knew how many people were assigned to that project you wouldn't ask that question.

[CSpec]

Reports are that if theres a hill or some wind, you can forget 40 miles on a charge. Also it seems it will be pretty expensive. But it is the future, no doubt about that. This current oil squeeze is showing the world they need to break oil's monopoly on us all, and the Volt is the automotive contribution to that.

[HarleyEarl]

I think it will happen and it will be a great PR tool, as long as people get the 40-mile all-electric range in real-world driving conditions. Profitability is something that is probably best left undiscussed for now.

I don't suspect that GM plans to make any money on these.

It will however give them Green cred.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The price as of today will be 40K, which is why GM wants the US Government to give a 5K tax credit or more when someone purchases the Volt.

[HarleyEarl]

Oil demand in the last few years by consumers has been at an all time high therefore prices have gone high.

The market will dicate what cars are produced.

I believe the internal combustion engine will be with us for a long time in the future.

And oil will never run out.

Isn't that great news?

I don't think GM really wants to do electric cars, they are forced to by the frenzied green agenda.

One day people will look back and chuckle over the silly season we are in. 'Remember the green era?'

Years ago there were predictions that it would be all over by now because of overpopulation, pollution, lack of oil....if I'm not mistaken, people generally in the world are better off than anytime in history...

Stop the hysteria.

[michaelv13]

Oil demand in the last few years by consumers has been at an all time high therefore prices have gone high.

The market will dicate what cars are produced.

I believe the internal combustion engine will be with us for a long time in the future.

And oil will never run out.

Isn't that great news?

I don't think GM really wants to do electric cars, they are forced to by the frenzied green agenda.

One day people will look back and chuckle over the silly season we are in. 'Remember the green era?'

Years ago there were predictions that it would be all over by now because of overpopulation, pollution, lack of oil....if I'm not mistaken, people generally in the world are better off than anytime in history...

Stop the hysteria.

Time will take its own course. Patience pays virtues.

I agree with others that Volt will be a better vehicle and help GM bolster its "Greeny" image.

[HarleyEarl]

A huge problem with electric vehicles is this - what is the source of the electricity?

Here and other jurisdictions, its fueled by coal. I don't see the advantage.

And the hip and trendy will buy cars like this as a novelty and to bolster their green image.

It all just makes me gag.

It's a political and public relations vehicle, nothing more.

If produced, it will be heavily subsidized by the government, ie our tax dollars, sell poorly and eventually fade away into the history books.

[michaelv13]

A huge problem with electric vehicles is this - what is the source of the electricity?

Here and other jurisdictions, its fueled by coal. I don't see the advantage.

And the hip and trendy will buy cars like this as a novelty and to bolster their green image.

It all just makes me gag.

It's a political and public relations vehicle, nothing more.

If produced, it will be heavily subsidized by the government, ie our tax dollars, sell poorly and eventually fade away into the history books.

Only one efficient energy exists in sustainable, and feasible form. Nuclear.

[CSpec]

A huge problem with electric vehicles is this - what is the source of the electricity?

Here and other jurisdictions, its fueled by coal. I don't see the advantage.

And the hip and trendy will buy cars like this as a novelty and to bolster their green image.

It all just makes me gag.

It's a political and public relations vehicle, nothing more.

If produced, it will be heavily subsidized by the government, ie our tax dollars, sell poorly and eventually fade away into the history books.

The power grid is powered by whatever powers it--it's not locked into one fuel, like ICEs are. That's the advantage--it's much more diversified, no more monopolies. In the long run the power grid will be much cleaner.

[PurdueGuy]

The power grid is powered by whatever powers it--it's not locked into one fuel, like ICEs are. That's the advantage--it's much more diversified, no more monopolies. In the long run the power grid will be much cleaner.

exactly. Plus, a coal power plant still is so much more efficient than a bunch of ICEs running around. Battery production seems to be an issue, but where there's money to be made, a solution will be found.

[Windy-57]

Good to hear that GM has brought out the troops on this. Hopefully they'll keep them dedicated to the future of this product even after initial launch. There will be much to fix and refine and it's not just about being first, but being first to perfect. Not to mention, it would be great to see this system on a number of other models.

And yes, I do think GM will make it on time. It just depends on the quality, fit and finish with which it's initially launched.

Also, I certainly hope there will be buyers. GM should begin the launch of this model with a teaser ad that reads something like, "If we build it, will you come?" Throw the gauntlet right back at the people who threw it at you. To the ones who asked the American Auto Industry for a more environmentally friendly model, ask them if they are now willing to put their money where their mouths already went.

And the government should absolutely subsidize this vehicle (or vehicle type.)

[HarleyEarl]

But the notion that electric cars will somehow stop using so-called non-renewable resourses is false, their premise is not just about being non-polluting. And nuclear plants take a decade or more to build if the public even warms to them.

[Satty]

I'll say it again, GM was dumb for showing their hand with this several years before production was even feasible. Now everyone knows whats coming in 2010, 2011, 2012, or whenever the Volt arrives, and they can adjust accordingly. Maybe Honda speeds up a magic hybrid system that allows an Accord sized car to get 65mpg in real world conditions. Maybe Toyota develops a hybrid SUV that gets 30mpg and allows consumers to have the type of vehicle that people bought in droves when gas was $1/gallon.

No matter what, when it comes, Toyota (and to a lesser extent Honda and even Ford) will be able to run a line like this:

"Our hybrids have been on the streets for years, they've not been perfect, but we've had a lot of time and a lot of customers, so the bugs are pretty much worked out. With us, you're going to get a hybrid that is going to be as reliable as a regular car. GM doesn't have a history of real hybrids. They've got a couple mild hybrids, but didn't sell many. Now they have this plug-in hybrid, they showed it to us (3,4,5?) years ago and now you can buy it. For $40,000, or ($5k, $10k, $20k?) more than our least expensive hybrid model. The batteries and powertrain, while they have gone through millions of miles of testing, haven't had the same real-world, real-driver abuse our million plus hybrids have. Who you gonna trust, the company that has sold over a million hybrids, or the car with a comparatively unproven hybrid powertrain that too years to get on the road and whose price kept inflating?"

You may not like it, but thats spin. If GM had the upper hand, they would do the same thing.

[AAS]

...

"Our hybrids have been on the streets for years, they've not been perfect, but we've had a lot of time and a lot of customers, so the bugs are pretty much worked out. With us, you're going to get a hybrid that is going to be as reliable as a regular car. GM doesn't have a history of real hybrids. They've got a couple mild hybrids, but didn't sell many. Now they have this plug-in hybrid, they showed it to us (3,4,5?) years ago and now you can buy it. For $40,000, or ($5k, $10k, $20k?) more than our least expensive hybrid model. The batteries and powertrain, while they have gone through millions of miles of testing, haven't had the same real-world, real-driver abuse our million plus hybrids have. Who you gonna trust, the company that has sold over a million hybrids, or the car with a comparatively unproven hybrid powertrain that too years to get on the road and whose price kept inflating?"

...

I'm not trying to defend GM for the early intro, possibly delayed release, high expected price tag... All I want to add is this: The Volt isn't really a Hybrid, in the sense that two types of propulsion are combined to drive the vehicle. The Volt is an electric vehicle with plug-in capabilities, just like the EV1, but with an on-board generator. So, GM definitely has experience with that sort of vehicle (not that the EV1 was on the streets for so long, or that they might have worked all the bugs out, but it was there). The sad thing is that, once you look at the Volt in this sense, if GM really learned so much from the EV1 then what's taking so long to make a similar vehicle with conceptual performance specs that aren't that far off? (Right? How far would the EV1 drive on a single charge?)

[Satty]

Its all the same, Any other automaker that has sold thousands of non-traditionally powered vehicles can question why GM took so long, their system reliability and whether the technology is worth the price over their vehicles, with their track records. Electric car with gas powered generator, hydrogen fuel cell car, kitty-fart car, whatever you want, its an alternative to the ICE that has worked for 100 years and will be attacked by the opposition.

[traumadog]

My understanding is that the problem with Volt engineering is not with the batteries and control systems, but integrating that "range extender" into it - where you have to worry about the thing starting reliably in the depths of winter after sitting for six months with the same gasoline sitting in it.

[haypops]

But the notion that electric cars will somehow stop using so-called non-renewable resourses is false, their premise is not just about being non-polluting. And nuclear plants take a decade or more to build if the public even warms to them.

Non-photovoltaic cell solar power seems to be gaining acceptance. Also there is still quite a bit of hydrolectric power.

Does any one know what a volt operating parameters would look like with just the series hybrid function included. Purchas price should drop considerably.

[PurdueGuy]

The Volt isn't really a Hybrid, in the sense that two types of propulsion are combined to drive the vehicle.

Yes it is, it's just a series hybrid instead of a parallel hybrid. It still gets its power from two sources. GM does need to make the distinction that it is notably different from other hybrids, but it is a gasoline electric hybrid, since it uses both.

[Windy-57]

But the notion that electric cars will somehow stop using so-called non-renewable resourses is false, their premise is not just about being non-polluting. And nuclear plants take a decade or more to build if the public even warms to them.

True, but it allows the country to focus its energy policies and efficiency efforts to a smaller set of energy sources. And, as mentioned, there are plenty of fuels that can be used to create electricity, but as of now, the vast majority of cars are using petrol, so hybrids & EVs also present a great opportunity to reduce our country's depedence on foreign oil.

To the second point, has there been any mention of making the range extender flex-fuel capable?

[CARBIZ]

There certainly are a lot of pros and cons with the Volt, which is why making the decision to produce it could not have been an easy one. For one, electricity rates are not going down. For those of us who live in the north east, we can remember only too well the black out in 2003. Ouch. For Ontario, which generates more than 50% of its electricity from nuclear, thousands of Volts recharging over night would be a good thing. For other jurisdictions, perhaps not as much.

Coal gets a bad rap, but other than the so-called carbon emissions, the amount of pollution it actually puts into the air is a lot less than the thousands of electric cars that could be replace internal combustion vehicles.

Frankly, the rush to hybrids and electric cars poses a potential minefield for utility companies. Can you imagine if only half the vehicles out there became electric? Yikes.

[HarleyEarl]

Does anyone actually think that the majority of North Americans are going to rush out and buy electric cars?!

It's not going to happen.

Canada is a major source of oil and natural gas for America.

We are your friends.

The automobile has been made the great satan by leftist environmentalists and the Nadars of the world. It's all so tiresome.

They won't rest until even humans are eliminated from the planet.

[CARBIZ]

Does anyone actually think that the majority of North Americans are going to rush out and buy electric cars?!

It's not going to happen.

Canada is a major source of oil and natural gas for America.

We are your friends.

The automobile has been made the great satan by leftist environmentalists and the Nadars of the world. It's all so tiresome.

They won't rest until even humans are eliminated from the planet.

Perhaps you haven't been reading that certain powers that be south of the border are threatening to slap carbon taxes on 'dirty oil'. I think Obama was one of them. If Alberta plans on building a nuclear reactor for its tar sands, it had better hurry up. There are clowns south of the border that won't rest until everyone is driving a horse and buggy again.

[HarleyEarl]

Yes, the leftist environmentalists, I believe, want us driving horse and buggies.

Could it be they are an elitist bunch, champagne socialists if you will, that know whats best for us, but the same doesn't apply to them.

It's like the Babs Streisands of the world mouth off and yet have several homes and all nicely lit up...consuming huge amounts of energy.

Don't even get me going.

Edited July 3, 2008 by HarleyEarl

[GXT]

My understanding is that the problem with Volt engineering is not with the batteries and control systems, but integrating that "range extender" into it - where you have to worry about the thing starting reliably in the depths of winter after sitting for six months with the same gasoline sitting in it.

That seems to be GM's current official line. However it doesn't make much sense to me. Sure, software can be complicated, but if GM really has as many resources on the Volt as they claim then I doubt figuring out how to get a gas engine to charge some batteries is such a monumental challenge.

[VenSeattle]

The power grid is powered by whatever powers it--it's not locked into one fuel, like ICEs are. That's the advantage--it's much more diversified, no more monopolies. In the long run the power grid will be much cleaner.

Exactly. It is GM's responsibility to deliver a vehicle that doesn't depend on oil. It is the State and Federal Government's responsibility to provide a cleaner power grid.

[haypops]

What they don't say is that more drilling <EM>won't</EM> save you money at the pump. The Department of Energy estimates that opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge would lower the cost of gas <STRONG>by 4 cents per gallon - <EM>twenty years from now.</EM></STRONG></FONT></P> <P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 1em"><FONT color=black>Even worse, oil companies already have permission to drill on 68 million acres of land with known oil reserves and they're only using 18 percent of that land. Yet they want Congress to open up even more?

By the way over 400 oil wells were started in California last month. Likewise, CA has long lived with the advantages and disadvantages of close by offshore drilling. Furthermore, the authoritative Stratfor Reports, says that the proposed future offshore drilling will be very expensive because the oil deposits there are unusually widely spread out.

Edited July 3, 2008 by haypops

[CARBIZ]

Exactly. It is GM's responsibility to deliver a vehicle that doesn't depend on oil. It is the State and Federal Government's responsibility to provide a cleaner power grid.

:rotflmao: