Caddy Lambda confirmed

[InvictaMan]

Apparently the downsizing continues and two Lambdas are getting the ax. Must be Outlook and Acadia with huge Enclave sales.

Link To LeftLane Article.

[Croc]

Apparently the downsizing continues and two Lambdas are getting the ax. Must be Outlook and Acadia with huge Enclave sales.

Link To LeftLane Article.

Acadia has been selling really well, though!

[gm4life]

Yeah but it and the Saturn are by far the ugliest of the bunch. GMC needs to either make real trucks or die. Another reason why Pontiac should have a Theta. Caddy can have a Lambda but a out for an Escalade that is nuts.

Edited June 26, 2008 by gm4life

[InvictaMan]

Acadia has been selling really well, though!

Article says one, maybe two. We've known for some time now that the Outlook was on death row. Who knows, maybe the Acadia will survive. But three high end, or should I say expensive, Lambdas? GMC crossovers seem like Cadillac trucks, kind of out of place. GMC is the "professional truck" brand, they should stick to trucks and let the "car" companies sell cars and crossovers. JMHO.

Edited June 26, 2008 by InvictaMan

[Intrepidation]

Great, more FWD for Cadillac. Just when you think the brand is about to become the Standard of the World again with the CTS/CTS-V, they shoot themselves in the foot. First with the FWD/AWD replacement for the SRX and now this. The Lambdas are good, but the platform shouldn't be whored out from everything from a Chevy to a Cadillac...again. GM never learns.

On another note, if they plan to close down GMC it would make sense that the Acadia would get the axe.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Robert Hall]

Hmmm...I don't know about the FWD, since the big-league luxury SUVs are all still RWD based (X5, ML, GL, Range Rover, etc). But it would be nice to see something less truckish and obese for the big Caddy SUV. I'd rather have seen the SRX be redesigned and be the top of the line Caddy SUV.

Edited June 26, 2008 by moltar

[Oracle of Delphi]

Hmmm, it ain't over till the fat lady sings, and you ain't seen nothing yet!

[CSpec]

Hey Chris, is this story true?

I would guess GMC and Saturn don't have replacements on Lambda.

[Chris_Doane]

Hey Chris, is this story true?

The story is brimming with truthiness, yes.

[ZL-1]

Am I the only one that remembers evok suggesting a turbo or twin-turbo 400hp Lambda-based Cadillac?

Edited June 26, 2008 by ZL-1

[loki]

if outlook gets axed.... that would leave Saturn with 3 models... sounds familiar with Buick, Pontiac (pretty much)

[CSpec]

if outlook gets axed.... that would leave Saturn with 3 models... sounds familiar with Buick, Pontiac (pretty much)

Isn't it 4? Astra, Aura, Vue, Sky.

[!!!TED!!!]

This would be a good move to compete with the upcomming Lincoln MKT (D472).

(I know the MKT will compete more with the Enclave, but anyone cross shopping may also consider an even more luxed out Lambda.)

[Drew Dowdell]

As long as it looks more mini-Escalade than Traverse + Cadillac grill, I guess it's ok. Two-mode will be available at the outset, yes?

[Blake Noble]

This should be on Zeta, not Lambda. But what can you do?

[Windy-57]

This does sound like a good idea. By the time this rolls around, the Lambda Caddy very well could be the Escalade replacement. Good more and good planning.

Outlook is out of place in its brand and needs to go. I don't think there is much argument there.

Acadia may be doing OK now, but wait until the Traverse gets here. Plus, in my opinion, I think it's time for GMC to close it's doors too.

[Chris_Doane]

Two-mode will be available at the outset, yes?

Too soon to say...this vehicle is still 3-4 years out.

[loki]

Isn't it 4? Astra, Aura, Vue, Sky.

i forgot about sky! damn.

[Northstar]

If this is simply the next Escalade (which would make sense if it's 3-4 years away, the Escalade will be 5 or 6 years old then. There's nothing wrong with it being on Lambda, hopefully AWD is standard, though. In a vehicle that big, I don't think it much matters what the drive wheels are, it's not going to handle too great...

I think they should keep the Outlook. It's obviously not too expensive to develop and the 3k or so they sell a month isn't much less than the Aura and probably 2k of those would be going to the Pilot or Highlander. May no seem like much, but Saturn is going to take some time to grow.

[2chevs]

So when 2012 rolls around, could the redesigned Traverse be the Tahoe/Burb's replacement?

Sorry to change the subject like that, I was just wondering.

Edited June 27, 2008 by 2chevs

[Northstar]

So when 2012 rolls around, could the redesigned Traverse be the Tahoe/Burb's replacement?

Sorry to change the subject like that, I was just wondering.

I would guess GM will keep one of them (Tahoe/Burb) for people who actually need them to tow, etc.

[gm4life]

Hell no if BOF SUV's die I will $h! myself.

[z28luvr01]

So now 2 FWDs for the "Standard of the World" brand, huh? How about they just make the next CTS and DTS on Epsilon and completely castrate Caddy.

ridiculous.

[turbo200]

this is what I said about it at Cz28

keep the escalade flavor alive and you will retain the world class status of the product, loosen anything that makes it a star against competitors and you will lose the one true pillar Cadillac has. Escalade succeeds on the basis of its design more than anything, it's an elegant, rugged, attack-all-paths of life, bold, ostentatious, yet still refined and sophisticated machine with dramatic curb appeal. it's the big truck that makes you feel strong while showing you've arrived. lose any of that with lambda, or don't improve on that formula with lambda and you can kiss any equity cadillac has goodbye. yes the cadillac brand is in danger of losing relevance as it is now since their one true calling card is the Cadillac SUV. No, the sedans aren't enough at this point. they will need to hope the upcoming big sedan, CTS wagon and coupe are enough to keep them in the limelight. the SRX replacement on Theta-Epsilon looks weak, not something you should associate with a Cadillac and not something a large segment of luxury SUV owners want. the cheaper rigs can pull off the girly, less muscular look and still get away with some segment of the pie, but the real leaders have a lot of power to thier look. my opinion may change on that upon seeing it in person.

Escalade will need to retain that powerful look, with the unmistakable Cadillac fascia and presence, and retain elements of ride/handling and power that have helped Escalade succeed in the past. Escalade should go for the bank, modify the existing [Lambda or whichever] platform to include all aluminum construction, make it truly deserving of the Cadillac name, go for supreme handling prowess. If they want to truly take on the BMW name that's what they must do. IF they want to be a slightly better Lincoln, go on and do exactly what Lincoln will be doing, rebadge a FWD/AWD platform with some meaningful style changes and absolutely no enhancement to the underlying driving experience that defines a product and brand.

Cadillac used to be the star of the GM fold, the one that was actually being managed to compete with the best offered in America and abroad. So far they've had little success, measurable but small compared to how far the other brands have come through successful product introductions. The brand has been left behind, and GM's money problems have as much to do with it now as incompetence had to do with it in 2001-2006.

Ultimately, I'd rather them keep the existing Escalade longer, rack up the profits elsewhere, and revisit the Escalade brand when resources are plentiful and Cadillac can be restored to dignity, Escalade and CTS aside.

[turbo200]

So now 2 FWDs for the "Standard of the World" brand, huh? How about they just make the next CTS and DTS on Epsilon and completely castrate Caddy.

ridiculous.

you got it man. the sorry thing for GM is this could be one more move that portends to a drastic downsizing. clearly they are short for cash. the other carmakers, MB and BMW, are going to stick to the driveline that has given thier vehicles reputations around the world for great suspension/handling and good looks. they are just going to evolve the tech to the point where they can still do it in America and around the world.

nobody said the luxury market was going to crumble anytime soon because of gas prices.

EDIT: if they cancel Acadia they lose GMC's current high volume SUV and the biggest selling Lambda. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out. With gas prices, they are definitely regretting doing so many Lambdas now.

Edited June 27, 2008 by turbo200

[Camino LS6]

Thumbs down.

Bad,bad, move.

Should be on Zeta.

But I did say that the Escalade's days were numbered a while back, did I not?

[Oracle of Delphi]

So now 2 FWDs for the "Standard of the World" brand, huh? How about they just make the next CTS and DTS on Epsilon and completely castrate Caddy.

ridiculous.

From your lips to God's ears! Sorry couldn't resist! :AH-HA_wink:

[VenSeattle]

I believe the Enclave is currently the only Lambda sold internationally so it won't be Enclave that's eliminated...

Just some thoughts...

If they're looking to merge Saturn & Buick dealerships with plans to phase out Pontiac and/or GMC, then Outlook & Acadia would overlap Enclave to some degree. Seems to me that one or both will need to be eliminated depending on how accelerated the consolidation plan might be.

At the rate things are going, I also suspect the GMC Theta and next-gen Pontiac Kappa may end up as a Buick soon.

The GMI story of the next-gen Aura being "delayed" may be concern about overlap between Aura & Invicta if the brands start to share showrooms. Just a suspicion.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I believe the Enclave is currently the only Lambda sold internationally so it won't be Enclave that's eliminated...

Just some thoughts...

If they're looking to merge Saturn & Buick dealerships with plans to phase out Pontiac and/or GMC, then Outlook & Acadia would overlap Enclave to some degree. Seems to me that one or both will need to be eliminated depending on how accelerated the consolidation plan might be.

At the rate things are going, I also suspect the GMC Theta and next-gen Pontiac Kappa may end up as a Buick soon.

The GMI story of the next-gen Aura being "delayed" may be concern about overlap between Aura & Invicta if the brands start to share showrooms. Just a suspicion.

Aren't you the smart boy!

[ocnblu]

To me, this signals another precipitous downturn in GMNA's future. This is not happy news at all. We are witnessing GM go from undisputed Top Dog in the USA to something akin to a second-tier Eastern European brand. Truly sickening.

[Oracle of Delphi]

To me, this signals another precipitous downturn in GMNA's future. This is not happy news at all. We are witnessing GM go from undisputed Top Dog in the USA to something akin to a second-tier Eastern European brand. Truly sickening.

Would you like some European language lessons? I know quite a few languages here. :AH-HA_wink:

[ocnblu]

Well no. This is still America, we speaka ze English here. For the time being.

[Camino LS6]

To me, this signals another precipitous downturn in GMNA's future. This is not happy news at all. We are witnessing GM go from undisputed Top Dog in the USA to something akin to a second-tier Eastern European brand. Truly sickening.

Looks like the beginning of the end, doesn't it?

What are these fools thinking?

[CARBIZ]

Well no. This is still America, we speaka ze English here. For the time being.

Mangled English, for the most part, around here.

[michaelv13]

I do not like GM's strategy of ambivalence. Heck, I am starting to doubt if there is a strategy in their heads. One thing is clear GM does not have a goal which is clear cut. Just like the stock market their goals change with someone pissing or someone getting pregnant with no real VALUE. Only silver lining is the VOLT, but now even the facts supporting it are ambivalent. I fear like Camino and Ocnblu this is the begining of the end.

GM should point the gun out horizontally or vertically up, not towards their foot, and dance every time they shoot it.

[Intrepidation]

Well no. This is still America, we speaka ze English here. For the time being.

Tell that to all the assholes who speak Spanish and refuse to learn English, so now, more and more we are seeing labels with Spanish and English...sometimes the Spanish is actually above the English. That's sickening.

Another rant for another day.

Meqantime, like I said earlier, Cadillac appears to be spiraling the drain again with product plans like this. You don't biuld a respectible lexury marque by using platforms you'll find on Chevies.

[ZL-1]

I remember reading somewhere that the US does not have an official language. Is that true?

Edited June 27, 2008 by ZL-1

[Camino LS6]

I remember reading somewhere that the US does not have an official language. Is that true?

Yes.

[Robert Hall]

I remember reading somewhere that the US does not have an official language. Is that true?

Surprising, but true. I see so many signs around here that are in English and Spanish, you would think that AZ was officially bilingual....

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This is all pretty ignorant...

The Escalade replacement should be on Zeta and there is no reason not to do that. I guess Cadillac is going to become a Lincoln competitor now with a bunch of FWD/V6 corporate bull$h! and a "has been" image. I knew GM didn't have the balls to actually compete.

Killing the best selling and probably MOST profitable Lambda (Acadia) is sheer ignorance. Sure, Traverse will sell, but I bet it won't pull the margins that Acadia pulls. And killing the Enclave is suicide for Buick.

Why is GM management so consistently panicky and stupid?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So now 2 FWDs for the "Standard of the World" brand, huh? How about they just make the next CTS and DTS on Epsilon and completely castrate Caddy.

ridiculous.

Well, GME wants cadillac to be an Audi competitor. (Which will never happen) And I guess that's all that matters.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

To me, this signals another precipitous downturn in GMNA's future. This is not happy news at all. We are witnessing GM go from undisputed Top Dog in the USA to something akin to a second-tier Eastern European brand. Truly sickening.

And what's sad is that it's akin to GM just "giving up"

They're like "Well, okay... GME wants us to o it this way and the politicians want us dead, so why not just forfeit our share to the competition and become a boutique company."

So now we have Cadillac with Lambda and Epsilon (Which will ruin what little reputation they have left in the market) Saab with Delta and Epsilon (A division that no one outside of it's fan clubs gives a $h! about buying) Buick and Saturn with the SAME Deltas and Epsilons in the SAME showroom and Chevrolet with imported Korean $h!.

That sounds like an awesome GM to me!!! (Sarcasm) How long until the GME faction eliminates Buick for competing with Saturn and how long until Saturn BECOMES Chevrolet as the budget gets tighter and Chevrolet is robbed of resources to prop up this failed business case from the 90s? How long before Cadillac loses ALL dignity and becomes 'damaged' again and Saab wins out as the ultimate luxury division?

[gmcbob]

Yes, all of this is depressing (Caddy selling more FWD vehicles), but I think as long as they have at least 2 rear drive sedans, they'll still be considered as a legitimate player in the luxury car market. Let's face it, the Escalade doesn't exactly need to be riding around on an old BOF platform anyway, as most people who purchasing Escalades probably don't care much about it being "high performance" or rear drive anyway. They're interested in content and features.

This should be Caddy's strategy going forward:

Small rear drive Caddy (like 1 or 3 Series) sedan and coupe (Alpha??)

Mid size rear drive (CTS) sedan and Coupe

Large rear drive DTS (sedan)

Lambda SUV

SMall SUV

[gmcbob]

From your lips to God's ears! Sorry couldn't resist! :AH-HA_wink:

No offense, but if you crazy d-bag's kill Sigma for Caddy (or wipe Caddy clean of any rear drive offerings in the next few years), that will be the kiss of death for GM thinking they'll sell nearly as many Caddy's as they sell now. Hopefully someone high up has a "hand off our Sigma platform" attitude at Caddy right now. If there's a new RWD car platform for Caddy I don't know about, then great - but don't kill RWD altogether for Caddy - that would be almost dumber than not having a good B class car for sale.

Why do you think Caddy "came back" during the past few years? That CTS is one of the most compelling cars GM sells (besides the Vette) - you kill it, and everything that GM worked so hard to do to bring Caddy back to life will be all for nothing. You brainiacs running things over there must realize at least that much when it comes to Caddy. Look at Lexus and Infiniti, and you'll see what I mean - you need rear drive sedans to be anywhere near relevant at that price point. Period. Cadillac is too awesome (and frankly, one of the only really, really good brands) that GM has left - it would be a shame to see it turn into a brand of ridiculous re-badged FWD sedans (like the 80s). Well, I guess there was a Fleetwood back in those days, but still. (of course, that's like comparing Dump trucks to crotch rockets in my eyes).

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

No offense, but if you crazy d-bag's kill Sigma for Caddy (or wipe Caddy clean of any rear drive offerings in the next few years), that will be the kiss of death for GM thinking they'll sell nearly as many Caddy's as they sell now. Hopefully someone high up has a "hand off our Sigma platform" attitude at Caddy right now. If there's a new RWD car platform for Caddy I don't know about, then great - but don't kill RWD altogether for Caddy - that would be almost dumber than not having a good B class car for sale.

Why do you think Caddy "came back" during the past few years? That CTS is one of the most compelling cars GM sells (besides the Vette) - you kill it, and everything that GM worked so hard to do to bring Caddy back to life will be all for nothing. You brainiacs running things over there must realize at least that much when it comes to Caddy. Look at Lexus and Infiniti, and you'll see what I mean - you need rear drive sedans to be anywhere near relevant at that price point. Period. Cadillac is too awesome (and frankly, one of the only really, really good brands) that GM has left - it would be a shame to see it turn into a brand of ridiculous re-badged FWD sedans (like the 80s). Well, I guess there was a Fleetwood back in those days, but still. (of course, that's like comparing Dump trucks to crotch rockets in my eyes).

What's funny is that the "brainiacs" at GM have been engineering the Cadillac comeback about TWICE AS LONG AS Infiniti has been doing their comeback, yet Infiniti is already MILES ahead.

Way to go GM management!!!!!!

You people shouldn't be allowed to disgrace a company, with this much heritage and equity, this badly.

[balthazar]

>>"Well, GME wants cadillac to be an Audi competitor. (Which will never happen)"<<

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't audi have at least 1 FWD vehicle in their 'portfolio'? Or did very recently?

[ZL-1]

What about an Escalade on Lambda but with the XWD system (or something similar to XWD)?

Edited June 30, 2008 by ZL-1

[turbo200]

>>"Well, GME wants cadillac to be an Audi competitor. (Which will never happen)"<<

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't audi have at least 1 FWD vehicle in their 'portfolio'? Or did very recently?

FOG's point on Audi is still a valid one, and the underlying argument of FWDvAWD has nothing to do with it. Audi is cool, classic, enduring design with no sacrifice on engineering, no cutting corners on the suspension/handling/drive, the quality is awesome and the second to none, however reliability is obviously a big question. don't know about durability and longevity, german cars have a reputation of holding up and going strong for a long time, but being liable to break often and require massive repair costs at times. Audi has cachet and brand value, built on a short string of successful product intros. cadillac has escalade version 2 and 3 and cts version 1 and 2 which have built some equity. audi has two hugely successful TTs, three generations of admirable A4s, an A6 that is critically acclaimed well respected and high on quality, and an A8 that has an alluminum suspension and is a technical tour de force competing with the best German limousines. they've had coupes, they've had convertibles, and they have successful wagon designs, Suvs, and now a beautiful supercar as well as a bolder theme going forward. one thing that can never be taken away from Audi, one trump card, one distinct quality that pulls many in is incredible interior ambience/quality and cutting edge and restrained design, inside and out. Audi is much much much farther ahead of Cadillac at this point, and yet all it takes is for GM to start hitting on all cylinders and start producing hits. start getting into those segments the competition is in when it comes to luxury/image cars, but make sure they compete and understand the value of the product in those categories.

as for FWDvAWDvRWD......Audi/VW does a great job with FWD chassis, they are roundly critically acclaimed as so by actual drivers and magazine drivers who test cars for a living, on the other hand GM does not get critical acclaim for its FWD cars outside of Astra. in short, GM can't produce a premium driving experience with FWD, or doesn't want to or think it's necessary, so why should we accept a FWD Cadillac from them. [i want to mention vectra, malibu, and aura have also been lauded, but the latter two much less so than thier european counterparts....another case of GM dumbing down things for us dumb conservative and relenting Americans.

[turbo200]

I want to add a point that came to me about Escalade. It's currently, largely, in a class of its own. There's the Navi but that brand's been diminised. But setting that aside and the completely invisible/uncompetitive Lexus/Infiniti Suvs, there aren't other large Suvs to compete against. The Mercedes GL comes closest, but is smaller on the outside, and so there are different expectations for it. Yes, gasp, people still see cars relative to thier size. Because the escalade is so big and imposing, a good trait, people have lowered expectations for it, and that it does what it does so well is all the more impressive.

Shrinking the escalade will result in heightened competition and different expectations for a different segment. Because it's going to be physically smaller, it will compete with MDX, Q7, GL class, and on the fringe with X5 [potential X7]. It will probably be much cooler than all of those, except for GL [and X5 though again it's going to be less a competitor to that one]. Design will need to carry over to Lambda but make a strong classic Escalade statement, and yet adapt to the crossover proportions [read long and wide and short, more like a traditional wagon]. This is gonna be a tricky one. they should engineer an alluminum chassis based on Lambda. you know, invest those profit from current escalade into furthering the brand. but since the car is coming in'12 we probably can expect largely a continuation of the current engineering, that means a barely lighter crossover SUV geared towards the family, and not the sporty premium drive setup of the SRX.

GM has too much on its plate right now. they have too many product they have to redo. I don't think they're in a great position now.