Gm's EPA 30 MPG+ Ads vs Toyota's 36 mpg rated Ads

[rez7777]

How can GM compete with Toyota when GM says in their TV ads 30 or what ever EPA miles per gallon Highway vs Toyota's 31 "mpg rated" Camry or the 36 "mpg rated" Corolla or the 23 "mpg rated" Sienna the 25"mpg rated" Tacoma etc.

GM loudly says Highway miles while Toyota's deceives people in to thinking that theirs is City miles. I have seen Hyundai do something similar. Hyundai also say things like fuel efficient on their SUV ads without mentioning what the miles per gallon are. Gm and Ford and Chrysler are going to lose the Mpg battle even more with these miss- leading ads.

[Intrepidation]

They also claim to have the most cars that get 30mpg.

[cletus8269]

hopefully people havent became so ignorant about cars that they no longer read window stickers.

[rez7777]

hopefully people havent became so ignorant about cars that they no longer read window stickers.

Once they read the window sticker they were already fooled.

The sales person has them in his snare. If they bring up the EPA figures he will

say its no be deal, just look at the toyota quality or some other bull.

[enzl]

Umm...the great majority of cars on Toyota's lots DO have higher highway MPG--(Yaris>Aveo, Corolla>Cobalt, Camry>Malibu, RAV>Equinox, Prius> all GM products)-and GM has used a 30+ marketing tagline for years (there's tons of 'em up in our Chevy showroom), so is GM being deceptive too?

You must be careful when talking out of both sides of one's mouth. Tends to hurt your argument.

Criticize Toyota for its 'sweat shop' problems or treatment of temps or dumb moves with big trucks...at least things that have some merit. The knee-jerk reaction for an ad that's entirely accurate and, actually, a rip-off of prior GM ads is just silly.

[Intrepidation]

I was just pointing out what I saw. Now about the malibu VS Camry. I'm guessing the Camry gets better total milage, but the malibu 4 cylinder/6-speed is more fuel effecient isn't it?

[CARBIZ]

Are people aware of how these tests are done? Do you realize they are done in a laboratory on a 2 wheel dynamometer?

The argument goes that the only way they can be 'fair' is to standardize the tests in the lab, mathematically adjusting for aerodynamis, curb weight, etc. However, the car being tested is never actually driven. It is all 'simulated.' Well, isn't that special?

I suppose they simulate for your 250 lb mother in law in the back seat, the idiot that just cut you off at the last intersection and that you are now chasing down, plus the twice this week you have been late for work and gunned it all the way!

I would like to 'simulate' my tax payments to Infernal Revenue and see how far that gets me!

Sorry, but for many, many people, who do not drive in Happy Valley, cars like the Civic are going to see their 'real world' numbers take a big dive, while engines with more torque and a flatter torque curve, like the ecotecs, will see their real numbers drop much less precipitously.

How else would one explain why I routinely got better gas mileage (tested myself by filling several tanks and doing the calculations myself) in the last generation Malibu (2.2, 4 spd auto) than the Cobalt (same engine) or Optra? I'm barely averaging 27 mpg (Imp. gallons) with my Optra 5, but I used to get 29 or more with the Malibu. If you beat on a 1.6 litre engine like a V6, you'll be shocked at the horrible mileage you actually get!

Since 90% of the vehicles in North America are sold with automatics, and since many Japanese small cars are absolutely anemic with said automatic (they are, after all, designed for the Rest of the World, not us), it is the real world with the Cobalt, for example, against the real world with the Civic and I warrant you won't find the actual numbers all that much different. In the grand scheme of things, what would 1 or 2 mpg cost the 'average' driver in a month anyway? $12 a month?

We're going to see a lot more 'hysteria' over fuel mileage, but at the end of it all, even at $5.50 a gallon, I am only spending about $40 a month more than I did a year ago.

So I skip my morning coffee a couple times a week. Big deal.

[enzl]

I was just pointing out what I saw. Now about the malibu VS Camry. I'm guessing the Camry gets better total milage, but the malibu 4 cylinder/6-speed is more fuel effecient isn't it?

IIRC, you are right.

I'm not sure how many 4cyl/6A 'bus have actually reached dealerships, yet. It was one of the victims of the strike....I'm going to take a look at our inventory today to see if any are on the ground here.

[siegen]

Sorry, but for many, many people, who do not drive in Happy Valley, cars like the Civic are going to see their 'real world' numbers take a big dive, while engines with more torque and a flatter torque curve, like the ecotecs, will see their real numbers drop much less precipitously.

I generally agree with you that a car with more torque will take a lesser hit in real world fuel economy with increased engine load, ceteris paribus. Not related to FE discussion, I just want to set the record straight by saying that the Ecotec's torque curve is not flatter than the Civic. The Ecotec has a lower RPM powerband, which is where most people drive most of the time, but it drops off quicker at higher rpms than the R18. Honda engines have always been known for their flat torque curves, thanks in part to the two separate cam profiles seen in most vtec engines. It is great for racing, but it is unnoticeable when the car is never pushed past 4krpms~.

[pow]

I was just pointing out what I saw. Now about the malibu VS Camry. I'm guessing the Camry gets better total milage, but the malibu 4 cylinder/6-speed is more fuel effecient isn't it?

Yes, the Malibu LTZ (six-speed) four-cylinder gets 22/32 mpg, which is one better than the Camry's 21/31.

Certain versions of the Colorado (3.7 2WD), Silverado (4.8 2WD, 4.8 4WD), and Tahoe (4.8 2WD, 4.8 4WD) also get better fuel economy than the equivalent Toyota.

[biff]

Umm...the great majority of cars on Toyota's lots DO have higher highway MPG--(Yaris>Aveo, Corolla>Cobalt, Camry>Malibu, RAV>Equinox, Prius> all GM products)-and GM has used a 30+ marketing tagline for years (there's tons of 'em up in our Chevy showroom), so is GM being deceptive too?

Actually, Malibu>Camry with 6 speed and I4, and Cobalt>=Corolla.

I laughed at a 4 Runner add I saw yesterday. They said it got an efficient 21 mpg. You can get that with a Tahoe and have a whole lot more vehicle and capability.

[enzl]

Actually, Malibu>Camry with 6 speed and I4, and Cobalt>=Corolla.

There are very few 'bu's available that way and, according to http://www.fueleconomy.gov, the '09 1.8 Corolla is more efficient, the 2.4 less. The 08 Corolla is more efficient, period.

[pow]

Actually, Malibu>Camry with 6 speed and I4, and Cobalt>=Corolla.

I laughed at a 4 Runner add I saw yesterday. They said it got an efficient 21 mpg. You can get that with a Tahoe and have a whole lot more vehicle and capability.

And a 4Runner "can get" 22 mpg, too. Anecdotal fuel economy stories can indicate the range of possible MPGs, but they shouldn't be used to compare vehicles. The 21 mpg (EPA) 4Runner in question has better fuel economy than any non-hybrid Tahoe. However, the Tahoe has better fuel economy than the Sequoia.

[pow]

There are very few 'bu's available that way and, according to http://www.fueleconomy.gov, the '09 1.8 Corolla is more efficient, the 2.4 less. The 08 Corolla is more efficient, period.

Yep. Apparently the Cobalt and Corolla are in different "classes". Hertz gave me the choice between a Mazda6 and Corolla for my "midsize" rental car.

[daves87rs]

Yep. Apparently the Cobalt and Corolla are in different "classes". Hertz gave me the choice between a Mazda6 and Corolla for my "midsize" rental car.

That's nice....

[CARBIZ]

Yep. Apparently the Cobalt and Corolla are in different "classes". Hertz gave me the choice between a Mazda6 and Corolla for my "midsize" rental car.

Probably because THEY had to pay a lot more for the Corolla, which is usually the case.

[Robert Hall]

Actually, Malibu>Camry with 6 speed and I4, and Cobalt>=Corolla.

I laughed at a 4 Runner add I saw yesterday. They said it got an efficient 21 mpg. You can get that with a Tahoe and have a whole lot more vehicle and capability.

Riiight... I doubt if a Tahoe could get close to 20 mpg...maybe 15-16.

[Robert Hall]

Yep. Apparently the Cobalt and Corolla are in different "classes". Hertz gave me the choice between a Mazda6 and Corolla for my "midsize" rental car.

Yeah, what is it with rental car agencies? They always seem to have their car/size category mappings all wrong... a Corolla is a compact, not a midsize.

[pow]

Probably because THEY had to pay a lot more for the Corolla, which is usually the case.

Corollas are cheap. You can get a new '08 for $13K, and Toyota dumps them onto rental fleets.

All I'm saying is that the EPA segmentation (or is it NHTSA?) of the Corolla as "midsize" actually works out in favor of the Cobalt, as then the Cobalt XFE can be the most fuel-efficient "compact" manual transmission vehicle.

edit - Hm, according to the EPA the Corolla is still classified as a "compact" (<110 cu ft). Maybe GM uses Hertz's segmentation methods instead.

Edited June 26, 2008 by empowah

[!!!TED!!!]

Sorry, but for many, many people, who do not drive in Happy Valley, cars like the Civic are going to see their 'real world' numbers take a big dive, while engines with more torque and a flatter torque curve, like the ecotecs, will see their real numbers drop much less precipitously.

Hey Carbiz, have you seen this?

http://www.canadiandriver.com/50litre/index.htm

CanadianDriver 50-litre Challenge.

They filled 13 compact cars with 50 litres of regular gasoline, and drove them as "fuel efficiently" as they could in a convoy over the same highway route until they each ran out of gas.

Results:

Group One..........Kilometres..........L/100 km

Toyota Corolla....1017...................4.9

Honda Civic........947.....................5.3

Pontiac Vibe........854.....................5.9

Group Two

Hyundai Elantra...812.....................6.2

Mazda3...............784.....................6.4

Pontiac G5...........755.....................6.6

Mitsubishi Lancer..754.....................6.6

Kia Spectra..........742.....................6.7

Ford Focus...........742.....................6.7

Nissan Sentra.......717.....................7.0

Group Three

Volkswagen City Golf....670..............7.5

Dodge Caliber..............653..............7.7

Suzuki SX4..................637..............7.9

All the cars were four-cylinder models. Interestingly, the top three finishers, the Corolla, Civic and Vibe all had 1.8-litre engines, so it would be correct to assume that smaller engines deliver better fuel economy. However, the Pontiac G5 had the largest engine at 2.2 litres and still finished in the top half of the group.

BTW,

The Civic is rated Hwy: 5.4 L/100 km (did .1 better!)

The G5 is rated Hwy: 5.9 L/100 km (did .7 worse)

It can be argued that the G5's auto vs the Civics stick made the difference.

[siegen]

It can be argued that the G5's auto vs the Civics stick made the difference.

I wonder if the Civic would have gone a little farther with the automatic. It has a better highway mileage rating.

[biff]

And a 4Runner "can get" 22 mpg, too. Anecdotal fuel economy stories can indicate the range of possible MPGs, but they shouldn't be used to compare vehicles. The 21 mpg (EPA) 4Runner in question has better fuel economy than any non-hybrid Tahoe. However, the Tahoe has better fuel economy than the Sequoia.

Ok, so a standard Tahoe is rated at 20, a whopping 1mpg difference between a much smaller less powerful 4 runner. I thought it was a funny thing to brag in the ad when it's really not that good. It's better than a trailblazer however. You can get 20mpg highway in a Tahoe...just depends on how you drive.

[CARBIZ]

Hey Carbiz, have you seen this?

http://www.canadiandriver.com/50litre/index.htm

CanadianDriver 50-litre Challenge.

They filled 13 compact cars with 50 litres of regular gasoline, and drove them as "fuel efficiently" as they could in a convoy over the same highway route until they each ran out of gas.

Results:

Group One..........Kilometres..........L/100 km

Toyota Corolla....1017...................4.9

Honda Civic........947.....................5.3

Pontiac Vibe........854.....................5.9

Group Two

Hyundai Elantra...812.....................6.2

Mazda3...............784.....................6.4

Pontiac G5...........755.....................6.6

Mitsubishi Lancer..754.....................6.6

Kia Spectra..........742.....................6.7

Ford Focus...........742.....................6.7

Nissan Sentra.......717.....................7.0

Group Three

Volkswagen City Golf....670..............7.5

Dodge Caliber..............653..............7.7

Suzuki SX4..................637..............7.9

BTW,

The Civic is rated Hwy: 5.4 L/100 km (did .1 better!)

The G5 is rated Hwy: 5.9 L/100 km (did .7 worse)

It can be argued that the G5's auto vs the Civics stick made the difference.

Interesting article. I am of two minds: 1) there were lots of interesting tidbits in this article on how to maximize your fuel economy, but 2) who actually drives like that? On the one hand, people who would fork out the extra bucks for Prius, for example, probably would and do drive like my Great Aunt. On the other hand, the average 25 year old who buys the Focus or Cobalt because it is all he can afford is not likely to drive the way they did in this test. Anyone who drives on an average freeway in any large city knows you cannot drive like they do in this test. If you leave more than 5 feet in front of you, someone will squeeze in, so you are forced to gun the engine every time the 'accordion' opens up.

Again, every driver is different. I will be the first to admit that I drive my vehicles like I stole them and it is for this reason that the smaller engines suffer. I would submit that if gas prices get much higher ($1.33 a litre is painful enough!) virtually everyone will start driving like my Great Aunt, including me, in which case the Civic and Corolla will definitely shine through.

[biff]

There are very few 'bu's available that way and, according to http://www.fueleconomy.gov, the '09 1.8 Corolla is more efficient, the 2.4 less. The 08 Corolla is more efficient, period.

I was going off of epa ratings for 08. Last time I checked 36 is greater than 35....although that is only for one model. I thought the other Cobalts got at least 35...guess not.

[The O.C.]

Yeah, what is it with rental car agencies? They always seem to have their car/size category mappings all wrong... a Corolla is a compact, not a midsize.

The rental agencies play this game.....so they can charge you a higher rental fee for what is effectively a smaller car. Charge you a fee for a "midsize" Corolla (that's actually a compact in real life....but they CALL it a "midsize.")

[pow]

The rental agencies play this game.....so they can charge you a higher rental fee for what is effectively a smaller car. Charge you a fee for a "midsize" Corolla (that's actually a compact in real life....but they CALL it a "midsize.")

Yeah, last month I got a "premium full-size" - a leftover '07 Accord VP (black door handles, manual mirrors, two-speaker stereo) with 28K miles and NeverLost (which apparently makes it "premium").

[Newbiewar]

Yes, the Malibu LTZ (six-speed) four-cylinder gets 22/32 mpg, which is one better than the Camry's 21/31.

Certain versions of the Colorado (3.7 2WD), Silverado (4.8 2WD, 4.8 4WD), and Tahoe (4.8 2WD, 4.8 4WD) also get better fuel economy than the equivalent Toyota.

when i was at the dealership, every silverado had better fuel ecconomy except the 6.0

and every tahoe was better then any equivelent engine choice on the 4runner? (i forget what the comparrable model is)

each suburban had better fuel ecconomy then the sequoia

when the GMT900's came out, they were the best on fuel across every engine and all the competition. being in kuwait, i dont pay as much attention to what new developments of other automakers, we've got the GMT900 here and thats all i care about

many of the Chevy's have a few points higher on the city milage then their competing toyota, this gives GM an advantage in average fuel ecconomy.

my brother's tundra averages about 14-15 mpg city/highway... my average customer of GMT800 and GMT900 usually say an average of 17.5-18.6 on combined fuel ecconomy.

one advantage toyota and honda still incorperate, is on all base level vehicles include a manual transmission option, which on a corolla and camry, you can squeeze another 2-4 mpg at highway speeds due to less drivetrain resistance.

there was a time when the Colorodo came out it had the highest highway fuel ecconomy of any truck... but i really hate those atlas motors... torquy as they are, they will consume as much fuel as you let them. and if you push em hard, they lose their balance very quickly and give u a rough idle.

equinox, is a sack of sh*t

trailblazer is supposed to be one of the worst fuel gulping vehicles on the road for its size, many consumers even a magazine had noted consumers receiving and average fuel ecconomy of around 12... again i hate the atlas series...

Impala, gets better fuel ecconomy then the avalon, but in some cases losses to the camry, i beleive v6 for v6 it is comparable.

Cobalt, cant compete with the corolla, if GM's goal in life is to tune the v8 corvette motor, toyota's would have been to tune the 1.8 liter (i think it still is) my brother's 00 corolla, with a manual received average... average! fuel ecconomy of 38-41 mpg, didnt really matter how hard he would push it, he always got that... it was the same motor pulled out of the celica and detuned slightly...

malibu, has a chance to compete with the camry, just needs a bigger budget on the engine, perhaps a high feature v6 engine that was tuned for milage instead of performance... but again losses the comparison to the camry's 4 cyl motor that has been redevelouped in the last couple decades

aveo, again no comparason, looks better then the yaris, thats about all i can say there... but the milage goes in par with the feel of the whole car, and it really doesnt have any respect being on the same lineup as every other chevy.

corvette, is the leader in fuel ecconomy per hp...

did i miss anything?

express vans... lol, im not going to go there...

do they still sell the uplander? the astro would be better on fuel and selling... but whatever...

hopefully the impala zeta, will be refined to make each

[iamwin]

I always thought GM should do a car for car comparison for each car Chevy beats Toyota.

Cobalt XFE vs Corolla

Malibu vs Camry

Impala vs Avalon

Silverado vs Tundra

Traverse vs Highlander

Colorado vs Tacoma

It is a pretty damning list if you ask me...

[rez7777]

The point is GM is saying EPA Highway Miles while Toyota is saying MPG Rated Miles. Toyota's figures are Highway Miles. Most people drive in the city. They already presume Toyota is more fuel

efficient. They are going to think GM figures are Highway and Toyota is city because they don't say Highway like GM does..

[daves87rs]

The point is GM is saying EPA Highway Miles while Toyota is saying MPG Rated Miles. Toyota's figures are Highway Miles. Most people drive in the city. They already presume Toyota is more fuel

efficient. They are going to think GM figures are Highway and Toyota is city because they don't say Highway like GM does..

It's all about the marketing. That's why GM's ads need to get a little smarter...

[Newbiewar]

I always thought GM should do a car for car comparison for each car Chevy beats Toyota.

Cobalt XFE vs Corolla

Malibu vs Camry

Impala vs Avalon

Silverado vs Tundra

Traverse vs Highlander

Colorado vs Tacoma

It is a pretty damning list if you ask me...

yea, i think ur wrong on a couple of those accounts...

[vonVeezelsnider]

yea, i think ur wrong on a couple of those accounts...

Certainly not on Impala vs. Avalon... our last tank just returned 26MPG in city driving conditions.

[pow]

yea, i think ur wrong on a couple of those accounts...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure when comparing comparable engines (i.e., similar levels of power or displacement), these Chevy models beat Toyota's equivalent - Malibu (2.4 LTZ), Colorado (3.7 2WD), Silverado (4.8 2WD, 4.8 4WD), and Tahoe (4.8 2WD, 4.8 4WD).

As far as the Impala and Avalon go...

3.9L AFM 233 hp / 240 lb-ft - 18/28

3.5L 268 hp / 248 lb-ft - 19/28

Even if you compare the base Impala engine (211 hp, 18/29) with the Avalon, they're tied if city/highway are equally weighted.

[Newbiewar]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure when comparing comparable engines (i.e., similar levels of power or displacement), these Chevy models beat Toyota's equivalent - Malibu (2.4 LTZ), Colorado (3.7 2WD), Silverado (4.8 2WD, 4.8 4WD), and Tahoe (4.8 2WD, 4.8 4WD).

As far as the Impala and Avalon go...

3.9L AFM 233 hp / 240 lb-ft - 18/28

3.5L 268 hp / 248 lb-ft - 19/28

Even if you compare the base Impala engine (211 hp, 18/29) with the Avalon, they're tied if city/highway are equally weighted.

why do people use the 4.8 on the GMT900's to show fuel efficency, the 5.3 returns better results... yep (14/19 vrs 14/20) lol those are so much worse then 07 epa results lol... used to be 18/22

impala vrs avalon, not to fair seeing the avalon is bigger then the impala, not to grab toyota's ass... but ... i guess i havent compared the vehicles since the 08 epa changes...