DPH UAW Offer

[daves87rs]

Spit it out Dave, dont just throw out personal insults ?

Are you suggesting that its better to just walk away and let it go? Screw it ? Cant see it from my house ? Has no effect on me ? So what big deal ? the rest of the world has a shiny future and common Americans are now looking down the barrel of a cheap labor shotgun ?

Ill never surrender, so that one you all can give up.

There was many questions in that post and you offered up

" Some people are missing the point..."

you are very correct !

[post="35712"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Umm....WTF??? :blink:

No-I meant that is about time for this thread to end....and maybe start a new one..
There are different issues (new or old) that could even be pulled out of this thread
to help start some new ones...

For for your information, I all see are quotes being anwsered with this and that..

If there were so many questions, why not bring them up in a new thread.

Yeah, guess that means I'm just missing the point.... :rolleyes:

And that wasn't aimed at just you....why would I insult you? It was "in general"...

I don't attack people. Though if you really wanted me to.... :P

[Fiero88]

Anybody else want to talk about how much their healthcare is costing them? Let's be fair to them UAW lad's, they work hard for their money and benefits, and I'll bet they want to make sure you deserve what your getting too!

[The O.C.]

Anybody else want to talk about how much their healthcare is costing them?

Let's be fair to them UAW lad's, they work hard for their money and benefits, and I'll bet they want to make sure you deserve what your getting too!

[post="36466"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm sorry.....but that's about the funniest thing I've heard in quite awhile......

I'd say their level of hard work and technical expertise is FAR outweighed by the ridiculous level of money and benefits they receive....

Coming from someone that spent 7 years working in Michigan next to the UAW....you'll get very little sympothy from me for the UAW.....just IMHO.....

[Fiero88]

I'm sorry.....but that's about the funniest thing I've heard in quite awhile......

I'd say their level of hard work and technical expertise is FAR outweighed by the ridiculous level of money and benefits they receive....

Coming from someone that spent 7 years working in Michigan next to the UAW....you'll get very little sympothy from me for the UAW.....just IMHO.....

[post="36721"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If someone tracked you around all day do you think they would find fault in things you do and don't do? Do you think Mr CEO would think you are worth what he is paying you?

Well tell me how much do you pay for your healthcare? How much of it does your
company pay for? What kind of perks/benefits do you have and what kind do you think you ought to have? Is the economy treating you fairly? Would you like to make average CEO pay or average union wages?

Come on spit it out...

If you have a beef because someone makes more than you, tell us why it's your beef.

I just do not understand why if someone is new out of college they think they are owed anything.

Heck most hourly worker's have been benefiting their companies for years and years... If I'm not mistaken the companies would have never made any money if not for the workers producing the goods.

So tell me Mr. College man what goods are you producing.

I'll repeat this again and again tell you people get it...

In simple English, COLA diversion amounts to a health care premium. Not adjusting for inflation, or accounting for overtime, or calculating Travel COLA concessions, the accumulated COLA diversion amounts to a minimum of $1,500 per year. COLA diversion is a code phrase for money diverted from wages to offset the cost of health care. Below is a short history of GM/UAW COLA diversion.

COLA Diversions for Health Care year cents per hour
1964 2 cents,
1967 2 cents,
1976 6 cents,
1982 16 cents,
1984 13 cents,
1990 14 cents,
1993 22 cents,
1996 2 cents,
1999 2 cents
(79 cents total).

.79 x 40(hours) = 31.60 x 52(weeks) = $1,643.30 of UAW/GM wages are diverted currently into healthcare.

Now add .17(COLA)+ .83 (wage increase) = $1.00 x 40(hours) = 40.00 x 52(weeks) = $2,080.00 + $1,643.30 = $3,723.30 diverted wages into healthcare that the UAW worker will be paying and getting no credit for.

THIS DOES NOT COUNT ANY OVERTIME WAGE GIVEBACKS/DIVERSIONS/PAYMENTS!

$3,723.30 next year for a UAW worker's healthcare payment, how much did you say you were/are paying? Edited October 31, 2005 by Fiero88

[CaddyXLR-V]

Those same workers are putting the nails in GMs coffin now. They are sitting home and getting paid for it from the job banks. They are making GM unflexible compared to new competitors. They wont allow GM to close plants, and trim excess inventory because they will be paid either way. No one is owed anything, thats the whole point. They were given a job, that feeds their families, and buys them everything they want. But thats not enough. They are resisting the changes that our companies need to survive. At the current rate, our companies will not survive.

[razoredge]

Those same workers are putting the nails in GMs coffin now. They are sitting home and getting paid for it from the job banks. They are making GM unflexible compared to new competitors. They wont allow GM to close plants, and trim excess inventory because they will be paid either way. No one is owed anything, thats the whole point. They were given a job, that feeds their families, and buys them everything they want. But thats not enough. They are resisting the changes that our companies need to survive. At the current rate, our companies will not survive.

[post="36837"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yea I never heard of job banks until this UAW BS. Job banks are BS.

However closing plants is BS. the only reason plants are colsing is to send the work out of country, that is BS. I would imagine that the Unions reason for job banks was to give GM reason not to deport work. However GM seems to have chosen to deport work and pay non productive workers. So whos the dumb A's?

I mean being all uneducated and what not. I would still think if I had a payed work force and operational plants I would have put them to work :blink: Not spent all the R&D, tooling, jet airliner rides, meetings upon meetings, and who knows what other bogus waste of funds to go elsewhere and pay an additional >50 cents per hour to some unknown that has nothing to do with our COUNTRY or our ECONOMY.

When you have gone that far and created such turmoil in our country and to our economy that people are standing up and saying BS, perhaps it is time to down periscope, take surface, get the F out and have a good look at the big bad sea. Somehow I dont think that tunnel vision our upper income people have been looking through has been in the interest of our country, our population, our future, the one our children are going to inherit, whether they like it or not.

****Why are we talking plant closings while in the same breath inventorys are low ? Im not suggesting conspiracy or anything but somethings wrong here, Im picking up a strange vib :lol:

Yea, and no one has answered my question yet as to whether or not those Fiat and whatda Subaru money losses are including in this horrible deficit GM is living in. I guess we'll just sweep that one under the carpet. I wonder if that was pension funds they spent on Fiat and whatda Subaru ? Didnt wagoner get huge bonus last year ? Yet this year we have, losses at Fiat, Losses at Subaru, and low inventorys ? :unsure:

Shhhhhh :unsure:

wisper, "we need to close more plants" "lay off more workers" "produce less cars"

[The O.C.]

If someone tracked you around all day do you think they would find fault in things you do and don't do?  Do you think Mr CEO would think you are worth what he is paying you?

Well tell me how much do you pay for your healthcare?  How much of it does your
company pay for?  What kind of perks/benefits do you have and what kind do you think you ought to have?  Is the economy treating you fairly?  Would you like to make average CEO pay or average union wages? 

Come on spit it out...

If you have a beef because someone makes more than you, tell us why it's your beef. 

I just do not understand why if someone is new out of college they think they are owed anything. 

Heck most hourly worker's have been benefiting their companies for years and years... If I'm not mistaken the companies would have never made any money if not for the workers producing the goods. 

So tell me Mr. College man what goods are you producing.

I'll repeat this again and again tell you people get it...

In simple English, COLA diversion amounts to a health care premium. Not adjusting for inflation, or accounting for overtime, or calculating Travel COLA concessions, the accumulated COLA diversion amounts to a minimum of $1,500 per year. COLA diversion is a code phrase for money diverted from wages to offset the cost of health care. Below is a short history of GM/UAW COLA diversion.

COLA Diversions for Health Care year cents per hour
1964 2 cents,
1967 2 cents,
1976 6 cents,
1982 16 cents,
1984 13 cents,
1990 14 cents,
1993 22 cents,
1996 2 cents,
1999 2 cents
(79 cents total).

.79 x 40(hours) = 31.60 x 52(weeks) = $1,643.30 of UAW/GM wages are diverted currently into healthcare.

Now add .17(COLA)+ .83 (wage increase) = $1.00 x 40(hours) = 40.00 x 52(weeks) = $2,080.00 + $1,643.30 = $3,723.30 diverted wages into healthcare that the UAW worker will be paying and getting no credit for.

THIS DOES NOT COUNT ANY OVERTIME WAGE GIVEBACKS/DIVERSIONS/PAYMENTS!

$3,723.30 next year for a UAW worker's healthcare payment, how much did you say you were/are paying?

[post="36826"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:blink:

First of all.....I'm very happy with my career. I'm the Western Regional Sales Manager for an automotive finance company, and I've been in the automotive industry my whole career (12 years plus an additional 5 years that I attended school at GMI and worked for GM.)

I'm certainly not bitter that any UAW worker may or may not make more money than I.....why would I? I make a good living myself and have a VERY high quality-of-work life.

You ask "is the economy treating me fairly?" Well, I have a solid job in the automotive business working for a large company, I just paid cash for a C6 Corvette, I own a $675K home in coastal southern California.....YEAH, I'd think the economy is treating me QUITE fairly.

You say since I'm out of college, I feel or act like I was owed everything......? I wasn't owed ANY of the above.....I earned it all fairly because I was dedicated to my goals and dreams and I worked hard for what I have now.

The total cost structure (wages, health care) that GM has to deal with because of the UAW is what I have issues with....not to mention the antiquated union-labor/management relationship structure.

Not to mention the immaturity of grown adults (UAW workers) keying the cars of white-collar workers that crossed their picket line....(which I witnessed myself during my 7 years in Flint and Detroit.)

AND, did I mention having to call a UAW worker to come to our offices to move office chairs into a conference room so we could start our meeting? And having to wait 45 minutes for them to get there? AND THEN having to be written up because I thought the whole thing was incredibly stupid and moved the chairs MYSELF so we could start our meeting?

THAT'S why I don't have any sympathy for them (as a whole....I know not everyone is the poster-child for the UAW's ridiculousness.)

I myself, as an example, never had to be a part of, or contribute to the antics of an organization like the UAW to be successful working for major corporations. WITHOUT the UAW, I've had a strong, and enjoyable career at GM and the other auto companies I've worked for....and WITHOUT the UAW, I've been able to achieve the kinds of things that I enjoy in my life today.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Inventories have to be low to stop the 50% off discounts GM has been needing to sell cars. GM could produce a ton more cars. But then they would need to sell them for 75% off or they would have nowhere to put them. Make less, sell higher, close plants, make money. GM has been overproducing for a long time, and advertising the deal, and rebate, and employee pricing, and its killing their image. They need to make 1 less than their is demand for, at MSRP. That will mean closing alot of plants at this time. If GM were allowed to close plants, GM could make money, and reinvest into making better cars. It's business.

[razoredge]

Inventories have to be low to stop the 50% off discounts GM has been needing to sell cars. GM could produce a ton more cars. But then they would need to sell them for 75% off or they would have nowhere to put them. Make less, sell higher, close plants, make money. GM has been overproducing for a long time, and advertising the deal, and rebate, and employee pricing, and its killing their image. They need to make 1 less than their is demand for, at MSRP. That will mean closing alot of plants at this time. If GM were allowed to close plants, GM could make money, and reinvest into making better cars. It's business.

[post="36889"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Boy ! I dont know ? That sure sounds like some serious nonsense to me.

75% off ?

one less than demand ?

closing plants ? GM's been doing this for decades. It hasnt been working !

When someones ready for a car you better have what they want and be ready to sell.

ISNT THAT HOW GM GOT TO WHERE THEY ARE TODAY ? In both the glorious past and the recent bumble. :unsure:

[Fiero88]

:blink:

First of all.....I'm very happy with my career.  I'm the Western Regional Sales Manager for an automotive finance company, and I've been in the automotive industry my whole career (12 years plus an additional 5 years that I attended school at GMI and worked for GM.)

I'm certainly not bitter that any UAW worker may or may not make more money than I.....why would I?  I make a good living myself and have a VERY high quality-of-work life.

You ask "is the economy treating me fairly?"  Well, I have a solid job in the automotive business working for a large company, I just paid cash for a C6 Corvette, I own a $675K home in coastal southern California.....YEAH, I'd think the economy is treating me QUITE fairly.

You say since I'm out of college, I feel or act like I was owed everything......?  I wasn't owed ANY of the above.....I earned it all fairly because I was dedicated to my goals and dreams and I worked hard for what I have now.

The total cost structure (wages, health care) that GM has to deal with because of the UAW is what I have issues with....not to mention the antiquated union-labor/management relationship structure.

Not to mention the immaturity of grown adults (UAW workers) keying the cars of white-collar workers that crossed their picket line....(which I witnessed myself during my 7 years in Flint and Detroit.)

AND, did I mention having to call a UAW worker to come to our offices to move office chairs into a conference room so we could start our meeting?  And having to wait 45 minutes for them to get there?  AND THEN having to be written up because I thought the whole thing was incredibly stupid and moved the chairs MYSELF so we could start our meeting?

THAT'S why I don't have any sympathy for them (as a whole....I know not everyone is the poster-child for the UAW's ridiculousness.) 

I myself, as an example, never had to be a part of, or contribute to the antics of an organization like the UAW to be successful working for major corporations.  WITHOUT the UAW, I've had a strong, and enjoyable career at GM and the other auto companies I've worked for....and WITHOUT the UAW, I've been able to achieve the kinds of things that I enjoy in my life today.

[post="36876"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You could do us both a great big favor.

Take time out of your busy little life, the hustle bustle of shifting paper on your desk and get to know just one UAW family. Learn what it means to be UAW today. How a UAW indivdual family unit operates day to day, what their aspirations were, are, and probably will be. You know what I'm talking about go one on one with them.

Learn that they don't have it so pie in the sky as you seem to think.

Most anyone of them you will meet didn't have anything to do with the creation of a Jobs Bank. They do however (or did) see it as some protection/insurance to pay their bills and support their families.

Do all UAW workers make the right decisions, resoundlingly "NO", just like all GMI executives don't. I suspect their are many things the UAW Union leadership wishes they had done differently.

The real question is does GM have a plan to honor it's workforce committments, or is "Freetrade" just going to be a good excuse for them to cut and run like so many other "good" corperate American companies have been doing?

I would guess that many people overseas just scratch their collective heads and wonder how dumb Americans will be before we get it.

I'll repeat this again and again tell you people get it...

In simple English, COLA diversion amounts to a health care premium. Not adjusting for inflation, or accounting for overtime, or calculating Travel COLA concessions, the accumulated COLA diversion amounts to a minimum of $1,500 per year. COLA diversion is a code phrase for money diverted from wages to offset the cost of health care. Below is a short history of GM/UAW COLA diversion.

COLA Diversions for Health Care year cents per hour
1964 2 cents,
1967 2 cents,
1976 6 cents,
1982 16 cents,
1984 13 cents,
1990 14 cents,
1993 22 cents,
1996 2 cents,
1999 2 cents
(79 cents total).

.79 x 40(hours) = 31.60 x 52(weeks) = $1,643.30 of UAW/GM wages are diverted currently into healthcare.

Now add .17(COLA)+ .83 (wage increase) = $1.00 x 40(hours) = 40.00 x 52(weeks) = $2,080.00 + $1,643.30 = $3,723.30 diverted wages into healthcare that the UAW worker will be paying and getting no credit for.

THIS DOES NOT COUNT ANY OVERTIME WAGE GIVEBACKS/DIVERSIONS/PAYMENTS!

$3,723.30 next year for a UAW worker's healthcare payment, how much did you say you were/are paying? Edited November 1, 2005 by Fiero88

[The O.C.]

You could do us both a great big favor. 

Take time out of your busy little life, the hustle bustle of shifting paper on your desk and get to know just one UAW family.  Learn what it means to be UAW today.  How a UAW indivdual family unit operates day to day, what their aspirations were, are, and probably will be.  You know what I'm talking about go one on one with them. 

Learn that they don't have it so pie in the sky as you seem to think. 

Most anyone of them you will meet didn't have anything to do with the creation of a Jobs Bank.  They do however (or did) see it as some protection/insurance to pay their bills and support their families. 

Do all UAW workers make the right decisions, resoundlingly "NO", just like all GMI executives don't.  I suspect their are many things the UAW Union leadership wishes they had done differently. 

The real question is does GM have a plan to honor it's workforce committments, or is "Freetrade" just going to be a good excuse for them to cut and run like so many other "good" corperate American companies have been doing?

I would guess that many people overseas just scratch their collective heads and wonder how dumb Americans will be before we get it.

I'll repeat this again and again tell you people get it...

In simple English, COLA diversion amounts to a health care premium. Not adjusting for inflation, or accounting for overtime, or calculating Travel COLA concessions, the accumulated COLA diversion amounts to a minimum of $1,500 per year. COLA diversion is a code phrase for money diverted from wages to offset the cost of health care. Below is a short history of GM/UAW COLA diversion.

COLA Diversions for Health Care year cents per hour
1964 2 cents,
1967 2 cents,
1976 6 cents,
1982 16 cents,
1984 13 cents,
1990 14 cents,
1993 22 cents,
1996 2 cents,
1999 2 cents
(79 cents total).

.79 x 40(hours) = 31.60 x 52(weeks) = $1,643.30 of UAW/GM wages are diverted currently into healthcare.

Now add .17(COLA)+ .83 (wage increase) = $1.00 x 40(hours) = 40.00 x 52(weeks) = $2,080.00 + $1,643.30 = $3,723.30 diverted wages into healthcare that the UAW worker will be paying and getting no credit for.

THIS DOES NOT COUNT ANY OVERTIME WAGE GIVEBACKS/DIVERSIONS/PAYMENTS!

$3,723.30 next year for a UAW worker's healthcare payment, how much did you say you were/are paying?

[post="36925"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm not dragging out my health care packet to quote how much I end up paying....needless to say, it's my fair share.

As far as getting to know a UAW family, I lived in Flint and Detroit for 7 years....and got to know PLENTY of them....and yes they were good people. That doesn't mean that I agree with their organization or how it's run or how it's managed...or that I agree with the relationship structure they have with GM management.....or the cost-structure they've forced GM to live with....

Those UAW families that I knew also lived quite nice lives.....had toys, took vacations, had nice homes, provided VERY nicely for their families. I certainly didn't see ANY hardship cases....

[Fiero88]

I'm not dragging out my health care packet to quote how much I end up paying....needless to say, it's my fair share.

As far as getting to know a UAW family, I lived in Flint and Detroit for 7 years....and got to know PLENTY of them....and yes they were good people.  That doesn't mean that I agree with their organization or how it's run or how it's managed...or that I agree with the relationship structure they have with GM management.....or the cost-structure they've forced GM to live with....

Those UAW families that I knew also lived quite nice lives.....had toys, took vacations, had nice homes, provided VERY nicely for their families.  I certainly didn't see ANY hardship cases....

[post="37189"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No but I'm assuming if many people on this forum had their way you would see alot of UAW hardship cases.

Now tell me, since obviously you've noticed my quote on GM/UAW COLA Diversions for healthcare, how much more do you think they should pay? Will this be fair, or do you think, "it's my fair share", they should pay for even more of their healthcare?

Something tells me you believe in the good old double standard that afflicts many Americans, I wouldn't dream of telling anyone you didn't earn your toys, or you don't need to take such extravagant vacations, or need such a nice home, nor why should you provide SO nicely for your family.

You will never ever get me to believe a company the size of GM did not fairly and willing enter into said past contracts, and most of all did not benefit from them richly. Now, certain bills, are coming do, some would say accidentally, I happen to think otherwise. GM has extremely smart, competent, accountants, they've proved it year after year, and since Wagoner has not being sent packing, I assume Wagoner has the boards blessing on where GM is headed. Those extremely smart competent accountants, along with the CEO and his staff, are doing their job's very well, would be my guess. This one has been gamed out quite well. Anyone who thinks GM is accidentally where their at today, has no concept, and should be forced to vote "Republican" the rest of their lives.

I'll repeat this again and again tell you people get it...

In simple English, COLA diversion amounts to a health care premium. Not adjusting for inflation, or accounting for overtime, or calculating Travel COLA concessions, the accumulated COLA diversion amounts to a minimum of $1,500 per year. COLA diversion is a code phrase for money diverted from wages to offset the cost of health care. Below is a short history of GM/UAW COLA diversion.

COLA Diversions for Health Care year cents per hour
1964 2 cents,
1967 2 cents,
1976 6 cents,
1982 16 cents,
1984 13 cents,
1990 14 cents,
1993 22 cents,
1996 2 cents,
1999 2 cents
(79 cents total).

.79 x 40(hours) = 31.60 x 52(weeks) = $1,643.30 of UAW/GM wages are diverted currently into healthcare.

Now add .17(COLA)+ .83 (wage increase) = $1.00 x 40(hours) = 40.00 x 52(weeks) = $2,080.00 + $1,643.30 = $3,723.30 diverted wages into healthcare that the UAW worker will be paying and getting no credit for.

THIS DOES NOT COUNT ANY OVERTIME WAGE GIVEBACKS/DIVERSIONS/PAYMENTS!

$3,723.30 next year for a UAW worker's healthcare payment, how much did you say you were/are paying?

[ehaase]

No but I'm assuming if many people on this forum had their way you would see alot of UAW hardship cases. 

Now tell me, since obviously you've noticed my quote on GM/UAW COLA Diversions for healthcare, how much more do you think they should pay?  Will this be fair, or do you think, "it's my fair share", they should pay for even more of their healthcare?

[post="37302"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You keep repeating yourself. What point are you trying to make? GM and Ford can't afford to pay the UAW the wages and benefits agreed in the last contract. Just what do you want GM and Ford to do?

[motownr]

Why should he talk?  Most of the union plants are in blue states.  These aren't his voters.  Many of the transplants are in red states - those are his voters.  You fellows in the upper midwest don't understand how much folks in the South - even working class people - hate unions.

[post="35934"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Terrific point, ehaase.

While I'm a Michigander, I do travel a ton. The average consumer could care less about this issue. Much like most of us didn't give a hoot about the steel unions, the airline unions, etc.

Unions are a trivial part of the US economy, and are increasingly tied to the public sector. Don't we all love and respect the public sector?

GM and Ford could file for Chapter 11 and the vast majority of Americans wouldn't think twice about it. The UAW could go on strike and most consumers would hope that they would lose their jobs.

Great post by you.

[CaddyXLR-V]

No but I'm assuming if many people on this forum had their way you would see alot of UAW hardship cases. 

Now tell me, since obviously you've noticed my quote on GM/UAW COLA Diversions for healthcare, how much more do you think they should pay?  Will this be fair, or do you think, "it's my fair share", they should pay for even more of their healthcare?

Something tells me you believe in the good old double standard that afflicts many Americans,  I wouldn't dream of telling anyone you didn't earn your toys, or you don't need to take such extravagant vacations, or need such a nice home, nor why should you provide SO nicely for your family.

You will never ever get me to believe a company the size of GM did not fairly and willing enter into said past contracts, and most of all did not benefit from them richly.  Now, certain bills, are coming do, some would say accidentally, I happen to think otherwise.  GM has extremely smart, competent, accountants, they've proved it year after year, and since Wagoner has not being sent packing, I assume Wagoner has the boards blessing on where GM is headed.  Those extremely smart competent accountants, along with the CEO and his staff, are doing their job's very well, would be my guess.  This one has been gamed out quite well.  Anyone who thinks GM is accidentally where their at today, has no concept, and should be forced to vote "Republican" the rest of their lives.

I'll repeat this again and again tell you people get it...

In simple English, COLA diversion amounts to a health care premium. Not adjusting for inflation, or accounting for overtime, or calculating Travel COLA concessions, the accumulated COLA diversion amounts to a minimum of $1,500 per year. COLA diversion is a code phrase for money diverted from wages to offset the cost of health care. Below is a short history of GM/UAW COLA diversion.

COLA Diversions for Health Care year cents per hour
1964 2 cents,
1967 2 cents,
1976 6 cents,
1982 16 cents,
1984 13 cents,
1990 14 cents,
1993 22 cents,
1996 2 cents,
1999 2 cents
(79 cents total).

.79 x 40(hours) = 31.60 x 52(weeks) = $1,643.30 of UAW/GM wages are diverted currently into healthcare.

Now add .17(COLA)+ .83 (wage increase) = $1.00 x 40(hours) = 40.00 x 52(weeks) = $2,080.00 + $1,643.30 = $3,723.30 diverted wages into healthcare that the UAW worker will be paying and getting no credit for.

THIS DOES NOT COUNT ANY OVERTIME WAGE GIVEBACKS/DIVERSIONS/PAYMENTS!

$3,723.30 next year for a UAW worker's healthcare payment, how much did you say you were/are paying?

[post="37302"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So it was diverted from their already excessive wages?
Should I keep repeating that Delphi workers get paid double what other UAW supplier workers make? Do you understand that?
Delphi's competitors, pay half the wages, and you expect Delphi to stay around much longer like that? Bankrupcy was inevitable. Now go on and repeat it again, since I know your going to anyway.

[Lance Truthhammer]

The world is a changing place, that much is certain, and that is about all that is certain. That said, I am disturbed by the easy solutions both sides see to the problems facing American manufacturers. On the one hand, individuals will argue that the unions should just face reality, the world is a changing place, wages aren't worth more than $10 an hour in the supply industry. I would caution such a way of looking at this for a few reasons. Surely, in the global economy wages in such industries probably aren't worth close to even $10. I imagine if Delphi is taken out of the equation, the average drops, and, perhaps, once union influence ends industry wide, there is more room for decline. In reality, suppliers would probably be forced to compete in the search for cheaper and cheaper labor. So, I think it is important that we understand the wage lowering dynamic in the global economy as a function, not of economic absolutes, but of human choices. Corporations make a choice to exploit workers. I think it is wrong to accept the downward trend in wages as given. I would also caution this view because, in America, $10 an hour won't get you far, especially if that doesn't include health care costs. To say that $10 an hour is a reality that American workers will have to deal with fails to understand the real lives, the real hardships, and the real pain $10 an hour wages translate into. What is needed before blandly accepting such a figure is a fuller understanding of its meaning for human communities. I am sorry to say, I don't think any of us can offer a full understanding, but we can and should try. Another simplification I have encountered in this dialogue is the claim that what this is really about is the laziness of the American worker, the lack of will to improve, and the belief in endless entitlements. This is fundamentally untrue. I think this much is clear when we look at the wider economic realities which influence this discussion. We can see that it is thousands of dollars cheaper to make cars in Canada, just because of government healthcare. Similarly, wages for Japanese autoworkers are nearly equivalent to Americans, but they are more competitive because government pays for their healthcare. I am not advocating America does this, but it is something to consider, and to write it off as a call for entitlement is unfair. Furthermore, I would caution any blanket statement calling American manufacturing workers lazy, inflexible (greedy), and uninspired - as I think some here have done, regrettably. At the very most, this may be true of an extremely limited group of individuals in the manufacturing industry. But, it is just as true for corporate managers and executives. Stay away from generalizations, there are too many false answers in them, and too few questions. The reality, like it is almost always, does not lend itself to generalizations. But I think it is fair to say that most of these workers have dreams for the future, aspirations for themselves and their country, and hope for a better tomorrow. Many have families - dream multipliers. They hope to send their kids to college, give them the best education possible, and give them everything they will need to have in order for their dreams to take them as far as possible. In short, they are no different from you or me, or from my parents or yours. And, they deserve our commitment and understanding. They need us to argue for them, or, at the very least, just to walk in their shoes. I am under no illusion that there aren't real sacrifices to be made. I, again, caution the proposals that demand the sacrifices come from those who stand as the least able to sacrifice. Sure, there is room there, but there is even more room at the top, where our executives are laughably overpaid - other countries we compare ourselves to are astounded by this. Until executives are willing to cut their salaries (which, on average, have gone from 50 times (1980s) to 500 times the average starting employee's wages) I will have a hard time understanding sentiments. This is not the case everywhere, and I do not want to generalize, that is a trap we should all avoid. We must look at the $10 an hour wage for what it means, not what it looks like in economic models. I think it is safe to say it means less opportunity for self-improvement, less ability to send kids to college, more people moving out of houses they should be able to (yet cannot) afford, less attention on healthy living (lower wage groups tend to have less ability to make healthy decisions), and, ultimately, less human flourishing. I think, when we view it as what it means, when we turn our vantage point inward to the moral law written into all our hearts as human beings, when we look to our conscience, then we can tell that this is unacceptable for Americans, given the cost of living in this country. We need to look at the challenges we face through a standard of human rights, not just American rights. We need to judge the actions of corporations, increasingly transparent in accordance with our demands, with regards to how well they uphold the value and dignity of all humans involved in their actions. Sweatshop labor, you could argue, is a "reality" in the globalized economy, as is the downward trend of wages. But, is it really a human reality? The question, I think, isn't so much whether or not American workers will accept lower wages. Nor is the question whether or not we will engage in potentially crippling protectionist policies in order to temporarily increase the longevity of a currently struggling industry. Nor, even, is the question whether or not our government will cover part of this industry's healthcare costs. For me, the question is really whether or not we will engage in serious public dialogue, all the while refusing to allow the debate to decline to the point of the lowest common denominator. Or, whether we will appeal to the better angels of our nature, and put economic "absolutes" aside and raise human rights to the rightful top of our list of priorities. Will we be guided by our conscience, individually and as a nation? I sincerely hope so. I hope in the face of uncertainty. I hope that, together, we will refuse the given of our economic "reality" and together find complex and creative solutions to a not-so-intractable dilemma, and, in doing so, move out of this painful darkness and into a brighter and more hopeful era for all mankind. -E.S. Mail

[daves87rs]

The world is a changing place, that much is certain, and that is about all that is certain.  That said, I am disturbed by the easy solutions both sides see to the problems facing American manufacturers.  On the one hand, individuals will argue that the unions should just face reality, the world is a changing place, wages aren't worth more than $10 an hour in the supply industry.

I would caution such a way of looking at this for a few reasons.  Surely, in the global economy wages in such industries probably aren't worth close to even $10.  I imagine if Delphi is taken out of the equation, the average drops, and, perhaps, once union influence ends industry wide, there is more room for decline.  In reality, suppliers would probably be forced to compete in the search for cheaper and cheaper labor. 

So, I think it is important that we understand the wage lowering dynamic in the global economy as a function, not of economic absolutes, but of human choices.  Corporations make a choice to exploit workers.  I think it is wrong to accept the downward trend in wages as given. 

I would also caution this view because, in America, $10 an hour won't get you far, especially if that doesn't include health care costs.  To say that $10 an hour is a reality that American workers will have to deal with fails to understand the real lives, the real hardships, and the real pain $10 an hour wages translate into.  What is needed before blandly accepting such a figure is a fuller understanding of its meaning for human communities. I am sorry to say, I don't think any of us can offer a full understanding, but we can and should try.

Another simplification I have encountered in this dialogue is the claim that what this is really about is the laziness of the American worker, the lack of will to improve, and the belief in endless entitlements.  This is fundamentally untrue.  I think this much is clear when we look at the wider economic realities which influence this discussion.  We can see that it is thousands of dollars cheaper to make cars in Canada, just because of government healthcare. Similarly, wages for Japanese autoworkers are nearly equivalent to Americans, but they are more competitive because government pays for their healthcare.  I am not advocating America does this, but it is something to consider, and to write it off as a call for entitlement is unfair. 

Furthermore, I would caution any blanket statement calling American manufacturing workers lazy, inflexible (greedy), and uninspired - as I think some here have done, regrettably.  At the very most, this may be true of an extremely limited group of individuals in the manufacturing industry.  But, it is just as true for corporate managers and executives.  Stay away from generalizations, there are too many false answers in them, and too few questions. 

The reality, like it is almost always, does not lend itself to generalizations.  But I think it is fair to say that most of these workers have dreams for the future, aspirations for themselves and their country, and hope for a better tomorrow.  Many have families - dream multipliers.  They hope to send their kids to college, give them the best education possible, and give them everything they will need to have in order for their dreams to take them as far as possible.  In short, they are no different from you or me, or from my parents or yours.  And, they deserve our commitment and understanding.  They need us to argue for them, or, at the very least, just to walk in their shoes.

I am under no illusion that there aren't real sacrifices to be made.  I, again, caution the proposals that demand the sacrifices come from those who stand as the least able to sacrifice.  Sure, there is room there, but there is even more room at the top, where our executives are laughably overpaid - other countries we compare ourselves to are astounded by this.  Until executives are willing to cut their salaries (which, on average, have gone from 50 times (1980s) to 500 times the average starting employee's wages) I will have a hard time understanding  sentiments.  This is not the case everywhere, and I do not want to generalize, that is a trap we should all avoid.

We must look at the $10 an hour wage for what it means, not what it looks like in economic models.  I think it is safe to say it means less opportunity for self-improvement, less ability to send kids to college, more people moving out of houses they should be able to (yet cannot) afford, less attention on healthy living (lower wage groups tend to have less ability to make healthy decisions), and, ultimately, less human flourishing.  I think, when we view it as what it means, when we turn our vantage point inward to the moral law written into all our hearts as human beings, when we look to our conscience, then we can tell that this is unacceptable for Americans, given the cost of living in this country.

We need to look at the challenges we face through a standard of human rights, not just American rights.  We need to judge the actions of corporations, increasingly transparent in accordance with our demands, with regards to how well they uphold the value and dignity of all humans involved in their actions.  Sweatshop labor, you could argue, is a "reality" in the globalized economy, as is the downward trend of wages.  But, is it really a human reality? 

The question, I think, isn't so much whether or not American workers will accept lower wages.  Nor is the question whether or not we will engage in potentially crippling protectionist policies in order to temporarily increase the longevity of a currently struggling industry.  Nor, even, is the question whether or not our government will cover part of this industry's healthcare costs. 

For me, the question is really whether or not we will engage in serious public dialogue, all the while refusing to allow the debate to decline to the point of the lowest common denominator.  Or, whether we will appeal to the better angels of our nature, and put economic "absolutes" aside and raise human rights to the rightful top of our list of priorities.  Will we be guided by our conscience, individually and as a nation? 

I sincerely hope so.  I hope in the face of uncertainty. I hope that, together, we will refuse the given of our economic "reality" and together find complex and creative solutions to a not-so-intractable dilemma, and, in doing so, move out of this painful darkness and into a brighter and more hopeful era for all mankind. 

-E.S. Mail

[post="37483"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Good post...you simply can't explain it better than that. Period.