DPH UAW Offer

[daves87rs]

Lets not kid ourselves either guys. People are acting as if the Government would not pick up these pensions and retiree benefits. They would. They'd have to in the eyes of voters.

Let Delphi go. End. Of. Story.

Then where will the cut-throat exec Miller go? Nowhere.

[post="34845"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Hmmm..true. Granted they wouldn't get as much, but ir would be something...

[Croc]

Why would the government do that? They didn't for Enron. Sorry, but not even the unions could elect Kerry; I really don't think they have that much political pull on a national level. Michigan might try to do something, but if they started subsidizing THOSE pensions, they couldn't discriminate against subsidizing others' pensions. I don't see it happening. If they strike, they will be up sh!t creek without a paddle. Edited October 27, 2005 by Croc

[evok]

Evok and XLR, as you wish poverty on these workers I wish hardship on you. Just listening to your accepting BS make me sick and thats very very rare that something makes me actually feel sick - congrats. Theres not a job in America at 9.00 an hour worth keepin. Dont believe me try it. Only people that work for that much are in fast foods like school kids or grocery mart people, and few of them are actually at 9.00. A Walmart warehouse person is at 15+, Price chopper and Target even higher, store workers are lower. You guys act like each and every other American, is just like you and can do just what you do and wants to do just what you do, or they deserve poverty.

You talk job competition but now you want to claim every American should do like you and get these so called skills and flood yet another job market that is in the process of moving abroad.

I cant see how anyone thats all gumby spined and swallows that global economy crap can be that smart, so what ever these skills you all learned Im glad I skipped that class. We are only "global" because you all and the gov and their wealthy buddies say so. Thats all, just because you all say so. Like I said before, a Government decision one way that benefits half the population is one thing, but if it hurts, severely, the other half of the population, there is something greivously wrong.

So now were at $18,720 gross per year.

thats probably 12-14,000 through the door after April 15

now ya wanna take out 5000 just for health insurance and drop pension

13,720 div by 12 months

1143 per month

Ive been above that for 2 decades.

So your all OK with this ? Somewhere in this picture is those new economics I just cant see, right ? Your new economics gonna explain what ones supposed to do with 1100 a month in 2006. Really, I gotta tell you Im just totally ashamed that their is anyone in this country that would just sit back and say "thats OK"

You must be some proud bunch, you want every highschool grad working for what people will work at in the third world. Is it that you really hate us because we didnt spend 2-6 years in college? You think we just spent 10-20-30 years working up, being better, learning, living better just to go back to page one like those minimum wage jobs we got our teeth broke on decades back ?

I dont know what to think ? Some of your blow it off attitudes, just blow my mind.

I'll soldier on, you gumbys just keep swayin in the wind. I've got way more pride and backbone than that. Your ideas will not work, it will throw the country into a further welfare state.

We need good jobs for each and every American.

Damn it !

[post="34826"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Razordge: There you go again. Putting words into my mouth.

I have laid out the facts and likely outcomes if certain action is taken as objectively as possible. Again, I will state, I have posted cause and effect.

Please do not put words into my mouth.

Supplier labor in the US is only worth 10 bucks an hour.

That is the going rate in the real world. Instead of giving you feelings of the situation state some facts and do some analysis.

I tire of this banter, especially when I attempt to post facts and you post feelings.

[evok]

Import tarrifs or total restriction. We cant employ at competitive levels with these countries. This is our country, it is what we made it. Some of us have decades into it. Along with our parents and grandparents, this is our country our economy and that is not the economy you guys are suggesting. We cant throw half of America in reverse so the other half goes into overdrive.

If these companys close or leave or employ people at poverty levels what is the point of all of it anyhow ? Really at that point what is the point ? GM - Ford will truely be nameplates. Then who cares ? If its Chinese or Korean, just go and buy a Kia or Hyundia, hell their all tooled up and rollin. Why bother moving tooling, better to scrap it and sell recycle to China - right ? What all will it matter at that time?

You all realize that steel cost is up something around 200% in this country because of China right ? You know that right ? Yet you wont address the way that problem is strappin all things steel in this country ?

You understand the great losses in profits realized all over America just on account of the doubling of oil related products ? Right ? {this has also affected steel cost}

We've been all over the thing with the health care industry being the main issue and I already know you cant address that problem.

Yet you say I dont have a solution ? Well "lets not do anything" but throw em all into poverty, sure isnt the solution.

[post="34861"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yea, and I would put money on it that everything your are wearing right now, including the under wear you purchased at Wal-Mart says made in China or somwhere in Asia.

Give me a break. You need to start educating yourself and read some global economic publications and not your biased union new letter. Times have been changing sir, you either roll with the punches and anticipate change or you fail. Edited October 27, 2005 by evok

[ChrisPauwels]

Evok and XLR, as you wish poverty on these workers I wish hardship on you. Just listening to your accepting BS make me sick and thats very very rare that something makes me actually feel sick - congrats. Theres not a job in America at 9.00 an hour worth keepin. Dont believe me try it. Only people that work for that much are in fast foods like school kids or grocery mart people, and few of them are actually at 9.00. A Walmart warehouse person is at 15+, Price chopper and Target even higher, store workers are lower. You guys act like each and every other American, is just like you and can do just what you do and wants to do just what you do, or they deserve poverty.

You talk job competition but now you want to claim every American should do like you and get these so called skills and flood yet another job market that is in the process of moving abroad.

I cant see how anyone thats all gumby spined and swallows that global economy crap can be that smart, so what ever these skills you all learned Im glad I skipped that class. We are only "global" because you all and the gov and their wealthy buddies say so. Thats all, just because you all say so. Like I said before, a Government decision one way that benefits half the population is one thing, but if it hurts, severely, the other half of the population, there is something greivously wrong.

So now were at $18,720 gross per year.

thats probably 12-14,000 through the door after April 15

now ya wanna take out 5000 just for health insurance and drop pension

13,720 div by 12 months

1143 per month

Ive been above that for 2 decades.

So your all OK with this ? Somewhere in this picture is those new economics I just cant see, right ? Your new economics gonna explain what ones supposed to do with 1100 a month in 2006. Really, I gotta tell you Im just totally ashamed that their is anyone in this country that would just sit back and say "thats OK"

You must be some proud bunch, you want every highschool grad working for what people will work at in the third world. Is it that you really hate us because we didnt spend 2-6 years in college? You think we just spent 10-20-30 years working up, being better, learning, living better just to go back to page one like those minimum wage jobs we got our teeth broke on decades back ?

I dont know what to think ? Some of your blow it off attitudes, just blow my mind.

I'll soldier on, you gumbys just keep swayin in the wind. I've got way more pride and backbone than that. Your ideas will not work, it will throw the country into a further welfare state.

We need good jobs for each and every American.

Damn it !

[post="34826"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Smell that? It's the disgusting stench of the extreme sense of entitlement you have. You think you shouldn't have to better yourself to get ahead? I think I'm going to hurl....

This sense of entitlement that is growing in this country will be our downfall. Wouldn't want anybody to work for anything! Edited October 27, 2005 by ChrisPauwels

[Simon C]

The problem with Miller's (Delphi) offer is that you can't go from making $26 an hour down to $9.00 in one week. If he came out with an offer of $18.00 with little or no future pay increases, I think the UAW would have worked with him. But not a $17 dollar an hour pay cut.
No one could or would do that!!

[motownr]

The idea that the government is going to come riding to the rescue of the UAW is nonsense. Private sector union membership is now verging on being an irrelevant part of the total US workforce. It's influence is localized mainly in the Midwest--the key "Smile Belt" states could care less about the UAW. Many of them are actually gaining jobs in the auto sector thanks to the UAW. In fact, I think the average consumer likes the benefits of a global economy, as it creates competition while also keeping the prices of all goods in check. What's not to like about this? I also find the idea that DPH 'needs' its US plants ludicrous. Read Miller's statements: DPH is trying to find a way to retain employment, but it has the ability to close all of its domestic plants if it needs to and source the work elsewhere. Who has the leverage here? It certainly doesn't seem like the UAW.

[The O.C.]

Evok,
I know what your saying. Today is different than it was 20 years ago, but things didn't change so much and so fast over night that 2 1/2 years ago the UAW and GM agreed to a contract and then the next thing you know Delphi files for bankruptcy? China has opened their doors to industry, and industry can't wait to get there.
WE not the UAW, but WE as in AMERICA, are going to suffer.

[post="34565"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

....America is not going to suffer from a UAW strike....at least not in a large scale.

As I've said before, the rest of this country's economic sectors have already adapted or ARE adapting to this new world economy that we see forming.

The domestic auto industry and what happens to it right now will have an impact, but a relatively small impact on this country.

It's a fact that the domestic auto industry has a fraction of the impact on our overall economy than it had say, 50 or 40 years ago. It's a different world now and a different U.S.A.

Whatever has happened, economically, for the U.S.A has for the most part, already affected us good, or bad. The domestic auto industry is just about the last sector to face this new reality.

I can guarantee you that even though I'm IN the auto industry, I won't be affected by what's happening to Delphi or GM. (I don't currently work for one of the Big 3 or their suppliers anymore, but I am associated with the auto industry pretty solidly.)

[The O.C.]

The issue is very complicate and long running.  Much of it comes down to Americans being patriotic of everything but our manufactured goods.  We have let our electronics industry die, we are losing our automobile industry and that will be the death knell for the middle class.  We want our products cheap and good, regardless of where they come from.  I have been to places where people will pay a premium for local made goods that may not be as good.  How else do you explain Renault, Citreon and Pugueot :-> 

If you look at the bigger picture, you will find that if these wage cuts stick then the buying power of this group falls by around $300K per hour.  $2.4 Million per workday.  Imagine the economic fall out from that to all of the associated persons (cleaners, dealers, stores, diners, phone providers, etc.).  Imagine the drop in income taxes and increase in bankruptcies (under this new corporate slanted law).  The affects to all will be chilling.

Now also imagine a Delphi strike, GM would stand the possibility of being idled for quite a while.  This could be devastating.

I think Delphi could be less draconian in their implementation, 20% wage cuts until some performance metric is met.  If we make money, you make money (continue profit sharing).  No wage increases for a specified period of time, Vision and dental but with premiums and deductibles (reasonable ones).

[post="34596"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It's GREAT to be a patriotic American....

BUT what people don't realize, is that in today's world economy, we don't HAVE to manufacture all or a good portion of our goods here to be a world-leader and economic powerhouse.

What we NEED to do is leverage the available resources from around the globe to our best benefit for our economy.

Even with a Delphi bankruptcy or even, agast, a GM bankruptcy, we will still continue to manufacture cars, trucks, and supplies in this country.....I don't see that going the way of the steel industry....but it WILL be a different business climate for the Big 3 and their related suppliers.

We never were a big export country, if I'm correct. CERTAINLY we've never exported domestic-made automobiles to any great extent. AND, if I'm right, we probably export WAY more of the Hondas, Toyotas, BMWs, and Mercedes-Benzs that are built here than we EVER did any of the Big 3's products....

[The O.C.]

Let's hope not, because if everyone becomes to accepting on things like this
happening, then everyone will try it, NO matter where you work, or what you
do...

If it is that easy, we as workers are in trouble....

[post="34605"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

EXACTLY why this is such a breaking point for the UAW. It's a MAJOR precedent that's being set before our eyes....

The '07 contract negotiations between the Big 3 and the UAW will be like no others that have come before us.....

[The O.C.]

In 10 years, our standard of living is going to change so much it is not funny. We are heading for the "Merchant years". The only that will make money are the people on Wall St. and the people on Bay Street. The rest will be working poor, that is how people in power want us. We are more likely to go fight wars, do what the rich want us to if we are all poor.

[post="34693"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I don't know about you.....

.....but myself and about 99% of the rest of the population in this country NOT directly involved with the auto industry, are not going to see any degredation in OUR standard-of-living because of this.......

[evok]

We never were a big export country, if I'm correct.  CERTAINLY we've never exported domestic-made automobiles to any great extent.  AND, if I'm right, we probably export WAY more of the Hondas, Toyotas, BMWs, and Mercedes-Benzs that are built here than we EVER did any of the Big 3's products....

[post="35082"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So true on every point on your last post -when I was in Hong Kong a couple years ago, the only American made cars I saw over there were, MB M Classes, X5's , Z3.

And yes - Honda is the largest vehicle exporter in the US. Edited October 27, 2005 by evok

[BuddyP]

  I mean, we can't even get our own American's to support American made products because they might have to take 1 less trip to a dealership or spend an extra $5.

China and American Pride is what I'm worried about.

[post="34897"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What a very true statement... I am proud to say that I buy USA made when I can. But right there in my own statement makes me cringe..... "WHEN I CAN". I am one that always checks labels and will buy US, Canada before somewhere else no matter what it is. Tools I am very picky about, 90% of my tools are made in USA.

Sorry to deviate from the topic

[Cremazie]

I don't know about you.....

.....but myself and about 99% of the rest of the population in this country NOT directly involved with the auto industry, are not going to see any degredation in OUR standard-of-living because of this.......

[post="35090"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Do you live in a bubble? when you have a workforce of 20,000 taking a huge hit, everyone pays. You may not see it at first but it will happen. That is 20,000 families that will not be buying new cars, computers, tvs, stereos, cds, life insurance, etc. That is 20,000 families that will not be sending their kids to university. That is another generation of working poor. If Delphi does it, then others will follow. GM will push harder, Ford will also. It doesn't end up being 20,000 people, it ends up being many more. Educators, Salesmen, Healthcare providors, insurance companies. Nearly everyone suffers when one sector is hurt. Only shareholders will gain in the near term.

Now, will I be involved directly, hell no. It's a long way from Alberta, but I care about these things. But I am a liberal.. so I am all for social equality.

[Cremazie]

What a very true statement... I am proud to say that I buy USA made when I can. But right there in my own statement makes me cringe..... "WHEN I CAN". I am one that always checks labels and will buy US, Canada before somewhere else no matter what it is. Tools I am very picky about, 90% of my tools are made in USA.

Sorry to deviate from the topic

[post="35095"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You should be a very proud of yourself for being a proud American. We as Americans and Canadians have very much to be proud of!

[Simon C]

....America is not going to suffer from a UAW strike....at least not in a large scale.

As I've said before, the rest of this country's economic sectors have already adapted or ARE adapting to this new world economy that we see forming.

The domestic auto industry and what happens to it right now will have an impact, but a relatively small impact on this country.

It's a fact that the domestic auto industry has a fraction of the impact on our overall economy than it had say, 50 or 40 years ago.  It's a different world now and a different U.S.A.

Whatever has happened, economically, for the U.S.A has for the most part, already affected us good, or bad.  The domestic auto industry is just about the last sector to face this new reality. 

I can guarantee you that even though I'm IN the auto industry, I won't be affected by what's happening to Delphi or GM.  (I don't currently work for one of the Big 3 or their suppliers anymore, but I am associated with the auto industry pretty solidly.)

[post="35080"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

OC, when I said WE as in America is going to suffer, I didn't say from a UAW strike. I was talking about the manufacturing sector going to China. America will suffer with all those good paying jobs going overseas.

[razoredge]

:) My bias "Union newsletter"? So whats your bias ? HMM ? A no, I live in this world, OK ? What world do you live in ? Come on lets hear it. Tell us about your world. yarite ! Then wanna show me these words that I put in your mouth ? I just reread the whole thing and I see no word put into your mouth. The only economics I care about is that check book balance and savings account, I suppose you know of a more complicated method of taking care of this... from a distant global location ? ? Perhaps manipulating mine and many others checking accounts and savings ? Pauwells go hurl if your that weak ! Still all protected in College ? Ive been living out here in the real world for 30 years. All you boys entitlement speel is just a degrading distraction. If all you can come up with is a entitlement insult, its lame and you are the one grasping at straws. Yep, entitlement insult is nothing but a straw, no substance behind it. You all seem to think your entitled to higher wages because you can lower us to third world standard of living. SO whats up with that ? Which foot, whos shoe ? Pauwells where the F do you get off telling me what I have done and about improvement, ambition and working for something or anything? You couldnt begin to walk the walk I have. Talk about stench. You didnt offer up a stinking thing except insult to someone you know nothing about. Go ahead big boy, take that entire post you quoted and break it down and define what is wrong with anything that is said in it ? GO ahead, improve yourself and show those skills at work. So Evok whats this BS about the cloths I wear ? Is that some kind of a status issue ? I did not move industries abroad. We buy what is put on the shelves when we need it. The textile industries began leaving way back in the 60's, hello ! thanks for quein' me up though. What does that have to do with finalizing the depleation of American jobs and throwing the rest of the population into poverty ? I will not fail, whats up with calling failure on people ? Your game will play out one day, then you will look back. The country is looking down the barrel of a gun on this one. If this goes quickly the way you all want it to go, all non college grads working in poverty, we'll see. You guys are so out of touch with real life it reeks of immaturity. How many college grads out there are not even working in their field of education ? How many cant find decent jobs and are complaining about their wages after "years of hardship in college" ? Enjoy your narrow little vision of the big picture but keep it off of my back. We've got a majority of the American population living 90 days away from bankrupt. Little to no equity in anything. Till you can offer up something besides "the world has changed" as a fits all answer, dont post on top of my back or insult my fellow American workers. If you do, be willing to take what I have to say about it. reducing the American workforce to the level of a over populated rice field ? What should we all go buy copies of the Good Earth and see if we can pick up some pointers to help us through the new millinium ?

[Cremazie]

:) My bias "Union newsletter"? So whats your bias ? HMM ? A no, I live in this world, OK ? What world do you live in ? Come on lets hear it. Tell us about your world. yarite ! Then wanna show me these words that I put in your mouth ? I just reread the whole thing and I see no word put into your mouth. The only economics I care about is that check book balance and savings account, I suppose you know of a more complicated method of taking care of this... from a distant global location ?  ? Perhaps manipulating mine and many others checking accounts and savings ?

Pauwells go hurl if your that weak ! Still all protected in College ? Ive been living out here in the real world for 30 years. All you boys entitlement speel is just a degrading distraction. If all you can come up with is a entitlement insult, its lame and you are the one grasping at straws. Yep, entitlement insult is nothing but a straw, no substance behind it.

You all seem to think your entitled to higher wages because you can lower us to third world standard of living. SO whats up with that ? Which foot, whos shoe ?

Pauwells where the F do you get off telling me what I have done and about improvement, ambition and working for something or anything? You couldnt begin to walk the walk I have. Talk about stench. You didnt offer up a stinking thing except insult to someone you know nothing about.

Go ahead big boy, take that entire post you quoted and break it down and define what is wrong with anything that is said in it ? GO ahead, improve yourself and show those skills at work.

So Evok whats this BS about the cloths I wear ? Is that some kind of a status issue ? I did not move industries abroad. We buy what is put on the shelves when we need it. The textile industries began leaving way back in the 60's, hello ! thanks for quein' me up though. What does that have to do with finalizing the depleation of American jobs and throwing the rest of the population into poverty ?

I will not fail, whats up with calling failure on people ? Your game will play out one day, then you will look back. The country is looking down the barrel of a gun on this one. If this goes quickly the way you all want it to go, all non college grads working in poverty, we'll see. You guys are so out of touch with real life it reeks of immaturity. How many college grads out there are not even working in their field of education ? How many cant find decent jobs and are complaining about their wages after "years of hardship in college"  ? Enjoy your narrow little vision of the big picture but keep it off of my back. We've got a majority of the American population living 90 days away from bankrupt. Little to no equity in anything. 

Till you can offer up something besides "the world has changed" as a fits all answer, dont post on top of my back or insult my fellow American workers. If you do, be willing to take what I have to say about it.

reducing the American workforce to the level of a over populated rice field ? What should we all go buy copies of the Good Earth and see if we can pick up some pointers to help us through the new millinium ?

[post="35118"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Cheers my friend, you are a part of the fabric that built America to what it is today. It's funny to see how little people know or care about the heart of America. The Industrial revolution is what made the difference between the US and India.

[evok]

:)

So Evok whats this BS about the cloths I wear ? Is that some kind of a status issue ? I did not move industries abroad. We buy what is put on the shelves when we need it. The textile industries began leaving way back in the 60's, hello ! thanks for quein' me up though. What does that have to do with finalizing the depleation of American jobs and throwing the rest of the population into poverty ?

[post="35118"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Reads like someone has their "panties" in a tither. This paragraph had me ROTFLMAO taken into the context of what I wrote. I am in tears.

Indirectly he illustrates the problems facing the global auto industry. Edited October 27, 2005 by evok

[CaddyXLR-V]

Reads like someone has their "panties" in a tither.  This paragraph had me ROTFLMAO taken into the context of what I wrote.  I am in tears.

[post="35137"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Except they will be expensive "panties" after they will be taxed. Then how much more will the UAW workers need to be paid for some new ones?

[CaddyXLR-V]

We've got a majority of the American population living 90 days away from bankrupt. Little to no equity in anything. 

That has absolutely nothing to do with how much they are making. The more you make, the more you spend. Maybe if they tried saving a little, instead of buying new cars every year, and owning the biggest house they could find, they wouldnt have a problem. Theres people out there that are not on the verge of bankrupcy, that are making half what the aveage UAW worker makes. You want to hold CEOs responsible? How about some personal responsibility to go along with that?

[Ghost Dog]

I don't know about you.....

.....but myself and about 99% of the rest of the population in this country NOT directly involved with the auto industry, are not going to see any degredation in OUR standard-of-living because of this.......

[post="35090"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There will be no big three in 07. It's over.

[Cremazie]

Except they will be expensive "panties" after they will be taxed. Then how much more will the UAW workers need to be paid for some new ones?

[post="35194"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, if you get your way it will take a weeks wages to buy a pair!

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well, if you get your way it will take a weeks wages to buy a pair!

[post="35212"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

And if we dont get my way they wont be wearing any at all.

[ChrisPauwels]

:) My bias "Union newsletter"? So whats your bias ? HMM ? A no, I live in this world, OK ? What world do you live in ? Come on lets hear it. Tell us about your world. yarite ! Then wanna show me these words that I put in your mouth ? I just reread the whole thing and I see no word put into your mouth. The only economics I care about is that check book balance and savings account, I suppose you know of a more complicated method of taking care of this... from a distant global location ?  ? Perhaps manipulating mine and many others checking accounts and savings ?

Pauwells go hurl if your that weak ! Still all protected in College ? Ive been living out here in the real world for 30 years. All you boys entitlement speel is just a degrading distraction. If all you can come up with is a entitlement insult, its lame and you are the one grasping at straws. Yep, entitlement insult is nothing but a straw, no substance behind it.

You all seem to think your entitled to higher wages because you can lower us to third world standard of living. SO whats up with that ? Which foot, whos shoe ?

Pauwells where the F do you get off telling me what I have done and about improvement, ambition and working for something or anything? You couldnt begin to walk the walk I have. Talk about stench. You didnt offer up a stinking thing except insult to someone you know nothing about.

Go ahead big boy, take that entire post you quoted and break it down and define what is wrong with anything that is said in it ? GO ahead, improve yourself and show those skills at work.

So Evok whats this BS about the cloths I wear ? Is that some kind of a status issue ? I did not move industries abroad. We buy what is put on the shelves when we need it. The textile industries began leaving way back in the 60's, hello ! thanks for quein' me up though. What does that have to do with finalizing the depleation of American jobs and throwing the rest of the population into poverty ?

I will not fail, whats up with calling failure on people ? Your game will play out one day, then you will look back. The country is looking down the barrel of a gun on this one. If this goes quickly the way you all want it to go, all non college grads working in poverty, we'll see. You guys are so out of touch with real life it reeks of immaturity. How many college grads out there are not even working in their field of education ? How many cant find decent jobs and are complaining about their wages after "years of hardship in college"  ? Enjoy your narrow little vision of the big picture but keep it off of my back. We've got a majority of the American population living 90 days away from bankrupt. Little to no equity in anything. 

Till you can offer up something besides "the world has changed" as a fits all answer, dont post on top of my back or insult my fellow American workers. If you do, be willing to take what I have to say about it.

reducing the American workforce to the level of a over populated rice field ? What should we all go buy copies of the Good Earth and see if we can pick up some pointers to help us through the new millinium ?

[post="35118"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What I find amazing is that you've been around so much longer than me and you still don't get it.

[razoredge]

Reads like someone has their "panties" in a tither.  This paragraph had me ROTFLMAO taken into the context of what I wrote.  I am in tears.

Indirectly he illustrates the problems facing the global auto industry.

[post="35137"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

throw insults around and then say panties in a tither when your done? Dont get to excited Im no where near where I just begin to get comfortable.

Once again you bring nothing just some kind of nose in the air attitude that I surely cant understand. I guess thats the point , right ?

So where is this "indirectly...illustrates" ? And whats it supposed to mean ?

you have nothing or else you wouldnt just pick some little hair out of place and go after that.

More of the straw grasping, not one responce to all the other problems that are truely the cause.

waffle waffle waffle

[razoredge]

What I find amazing is that you've been around so much longer than me and you still don't get it.

[post="35295"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Get what Chris ? That people living in this country need jobs. That the jobs these people need also need to meet the living standards that are and have been in effect in this country. Just like others you have nothing except quick little one liner picking apart some little hair out of place or some cute little phrase like the entitlement or how about the one above "just dont get it". What is it you dont get ? That is the problem, its what you dont get.

[razoredge]

And if we dont get my way they wont be wearing any at all.

[post="35279"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

"your way" you realize is that you want to exploit labor from your own kind, within your own country, just incase you have a problem realizing what you say.

Once you get it your way what will be the point ? I asked this yesterday, didnt get an answer. Whats the point of labor going back to where it was 100 years ago ? Whats the point of an "American" company when its not American anymore. Why would I not just simply buy a Hyundia and get that great warrenty and cheap car ? I mean I could, I could have gotten into a new Hyundia for no more than I got into a used Oldsmobile. Why not just the whole country buy cheap Sofias and have more for the mortgage ?

[Cremazie]

And if we dont get my way they wont be wearing any at all.

[post="35279"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You may think that I am stupid but I know you are insane. I hope you are kidding, nobody in their right mind should want others to suffer. The problem is not in the wages that union employees are getting in North America, it is exploitation of workers overseas. Overseas workers should be making the same as us, everyone will benefit. YEAH, REALLY! Edited October 28, 2005 by Cremazie

[CARBIZ]

Ladies! Back to your corners! This is a contentious issue, to be sure. But we are talking about more than just some guy standing on a factory floor, making $32 an hour screwing on parts. The real problem will be the long term loss of R&D, plus the technical jobs. Other than perhaps building a rocket, is there anything out there that requires more different levels of skills and convergence of technologies than building a car? I am talking from pen to paper to rubber to road. If America loses this, to become just a parts distributor for Japan INc. then she is finished. Yes, re-education and retraining is important. Yes, robots will take more industrial jobs, but the American auto industry, as run and controlled by Americans must survive. It is amazing that to me that at this time in America's life, where you have troops in several countries around the globe, some actively getting killed, so many of you on this board are willing to cheer while your industrial backbone is being broken. At the risk of getting a little off topic, what will happen in 10 years, if Ford and GM are gone, if most of the plants are closed, if Japan closes up many of its branch factories because it decides it can build them cheaper in Mexico or China - what will happen if the U.S. gets bogged down in North Korea or Iran? Do you think Madam President could just pick up the phone and ORDER Toyota to convert their Osaka plant to building tanks? Or guns? Anyone who has studied WWII will realize that the war was won because America could outbuild, outproduce and outpace anything the Germans or Japanese could throw at them. Sheer weight of numbers. If Tokyo has most of the auto R&D development, if most of the machinists, metallurgists, etc. live in Asia - what then? Yes, the world is different than 50 years ago. However, those of you who think it won't effect America, should GM and/or Ford go down in the next few years, are sadly mistaken.

[CaddyXLR-V]

"your way" you realize is that you want to exploit labor from your own kind, within your own country, just incase you have a problem realizing what you say.

Once you get it your way what will be the point ? I asked this yesterday, didnt get an answer. Whats the point of labor going back to where it was 100 years ago ? Whats the point of an "American" company when its not American anymore. Why would I not just simply buy a Hyundia and get that great warrenty and cheap car ? I mean I could, I could have gotten into a new Hyundia for no more than I got into a used Oldsmobile. Why not just the whole country buy cheap Sofias and have more for the mortgage ?

[post="35310"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Our companies need a cost structure that can compete with other countries companies. If they get the cost structure they need, they can stay here. Overpaying the workers is what is forcing our companies overseas.

[CaddyXLR-V]

DPH also secured a $4.5B financial package from JPMorgan Chase and Citigroup Global Markets Inc. Good news :)

[daves87rs]

WoW, down guys, down.. This isn't going to be the end of life as we know it...... :blink: If I danced around in panties, would you guys feel better? :P :lol: Regardless, I see the points on both sides.....

[daves87rs]

DPH also secured a $4.5B financial package from JPMorgan Chase and Citigroup Global Markets Inc.

Good news  :)

[post="35436"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Cool beans. :)

[evok]

throw insults around and then say panties in a tither when your done? Dont get to excited Im no where near where I just begin to get comfortable.

Once again you bring nothing just some kind of nose in the air attitude that I surely cant understand. I guess thats the point , right ?

So where is this "indirectly...illustrates" ? And whats it supposed to mean ?

you have nothing or else you wouldnt just pick some little hair out of place and go after that.

More of the straw grasping, not one responce to all the other problems that are truely the cause.

waffle waffle waffle

[post="35298"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Your posts are just amusing now because each one continues to show your lack of knowledge on the subject.

[Guest Josh]

One thing will happen as with all Union threads. No personal attacks. No challenges. No fights. If any of the above happen, no matter how much your posts are filled with desire, it will be deleted and warnings handed out. We have to debate issues in an adult fashion. Not like children. The moderators have full ability to edit/delete/warn/suspend members if necessary.

[Ghost Dog]

Dan Savino, who has put in five years at the Lockport plant, said Thursday that the mood among workers is grim.


"We were basically told, 'Do your job, but don't go the extra mile,' " Savino said. "We're so angry that we're ready to go on strike right now to fight for what we believe in."

The current contract that Delphi has with its unions does not allow workers to strike. Delphi could be permitted to reject its union contracts in an attempt to reorganize its money-losing business.


"And if that happens," Savino said, "we would strike."

Edited October 28, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[razoredge]

Your posts are just amusing now because each one continues to show your lack of knowledge on the subject.

[post="35486"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Oh, really ? The lack of substance in your responces show , what ?

Then are you suggesting that I have a lack of knowledge of what constitutes a decent living in the USA ?

Then are you suggesting that I shouldnt care what constitutes a decent living in the USA ?

Then are you suggesting that if a "USA" company no longer employees American citizens at a decent living in the USA, I should still support that company and be.... what ?........a proud American ?

Now, are you suggesting that only UAW workers are the only over paid employees in the GM machine ?

Then, are you suggesting that only the Union workers in this country are the only overpaid employees in this country ?

After that, are you suggesting that there is a lack of money floating around this country ?

So little money that we must throw our own labor base into poverty because our corporations and our government decided it would be in thier financial interest to exploit foreign labor, screw all else ?

Finally, just when, will any of you, step up to the plate and address the real issues of inflation that have caused these more recent dooms day finances coming from within GM's and Others accounting departments ?

Cost of healthcare ?
Cost of Steel ?
Cost of operating expences related to oil ?

... I have maintained from the beginning of these arguements that everyone was choosing to ignore these problems and go straight to the bottom and take it out of the hides of the employees. Its been months now and still not one of the noncollege grad haters, has stepped up to the plate and addressed these issues. Is it perhaps because these more severe problems are to hard to fix ?
.
.
.
or is it that these industries that are the real thorn in the side of all working Americans and American businesses are showing great profits for those involved ?

[razoredge]

Ladies!  Back to  your corners!
  This is a contentious issue, to be sure.  But we are talking about more than just some guy standing on a factory floor, making $32 an hour screwing on parts.  The real problem will be the long term loss of R&D, plus the technical jobs.

[post="35339"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not to make trivi the rest of your post but with this I need to ask, "so now were up to 32 dollars an hour ?"

I'd also like to point out that the real problem is the immeadiate problem of throwing American workers into poverty.

I am glad to see someone thinking long term, however. This current problem was the long term problem 30 years ago, when our government allowed themselves and our corporations to forget how America came to be and that there was a population to look out for.

[daves87rs]

Ok, myabe this thread needs to die... :angry: Some people are missing the point... :rolleyes:

[razoredge]

Spit it out Dave, dont just throw out personal insults ? Are you suggesting that its better to just walk away and let it go? Screw it ? Cant see it from my house ? Has no effect on me ? So what big deal ? the rest of the world has a shiny future and common Americans are now looking down the barrel of a cheap labor shotgun ? Ill never surrender, so that one you all can give up. There was many questions in that post and you offered up " Some people are missing the point..." you are very correct !

[Fiero88]

In the 25 years of GM's restructuring, the only aspect that has not been touch is the UAW labor.

[post="34578"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Don't forget Corporate America's love for their CEO's and the exorbinate salaries they command..... Market wages my betuty!!!!

Hillary Rodam S Clinton has one heck of an idea...... And I have never liked the Clinton's... but it's time for a national summit on healthcare and trade. If Bush won't call for it, maybe the UAW and all the other unions across America can force the issue by staying home until he is willing to talk.

NO IT"S NOT TIME FOR THIS THREAD TO DIE! Edited October 29, 2005 by Fiero88

[ehaase]

If Bush won't call for it, maybe the UAW and all the other unions across America can force the issue by staying home until he is willing to talk.

Why should he talk? Most of the union plants are in blue states. These aren't his voters. Many of the transplants are in red states - those are his voters. You fellows in the upper midwest don't understand how much folks in the South - even working class people - hate unions.

[Fiero88]

Why should he talk?  Most of the union plants are in blue states.  These aren't his voters.  Many of the transplants are in red states - those are his voters.  You fellows in the upper midwest don't understand how much folks in the South - even working class people - hate unions.

[post="35934"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Healthcare issues and free trade, how are these items effecting the workers of America. What's your opinion?
Can I assume from your comment you are ok with your wages and the cost of your healthcare?
Can I assume you are ok with the direction the American economy is headed.

Should I assume, if your not, that you blame the UAW for all of your problems? Edited October 29, 2005 by Fiero88

[CaddyXLR-V]

Healthcare issues and free trade, how are these items effecting the workers of America.  What's your opinion?
Can I assume from your comment you are ok with your wages and the cost of your healthcare? 
Can I assume you are ok with the direction the American economy is headed. 

Should I assume, if your not, that you blame the UAW for all of your problems?

[post="35943"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I cant speak for him, but I'm happy with the direction my life is going. If your not, get a better job then.
I would like if GM had the money to make better cars, and I'm sure the 93% non-union population would like that too.
Why is it, that every union employer is struggling? Why is it, the companies posting the biggest profits, and growing their businesses, are non union? Why is the population becoming increasingly non union?

[Fiero88]

I cant speak for him, but I'm happy with the direction my life is going. If your not, get a better job then.
I would like if GM had the money to make better cars, and I'm sure the 93% non-union population would like that too.
Why is it, that every union employer is struggling? Why is it, the companies posting the biggest profits, and growing their businesses, are non union? Why is the population becoming increasingly non union?

[post="35957"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I don't need a better job.
GM will make the cars they have always made, just enough quality to get you to buy it, anymore would be a wasted expense.
Unions are struggling quite simply because they are not competitive in todays marketplace. The reason they are not competitive is they took their eyes off the ball.
Every non-union business that's growing is doing it on the backs of their workforce, and no one here thinks otherwise. So get a life and make sure your workforce is well looked after. Edited October 29, 2005 by Fiero88

[razoredge]

Why should he talk?  Most of the union plants are in blue states.  These aren't his voters.  Many of the transplants are in red states - those are his voters.  You fellows in the upper midwest don't understand how much folks in the South - even working class people - hate unions.

[post="35934"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yea, but I bet they would love confederacys. :lol:

[ehaase]

Healthcare issues and free trade, how are these items effecting the workers of America.  What's your opinion?
Can I assume from your comment you are ok with your wages and the cost of your healthcare? 
Can I assume you are ok with the direction the American economy is headed. 

Should I assume, if your not, that you blame the UAW for all of your problems?

[post="35943"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My main concern with the direction of the American economy is the outrageous federal budget deficit. I want to see government spending slashed, especially entitlement spending. Some taxes should be raised.

I am very pleased and thankful for my wages. I pay about 30 percent of my health insurance premium, far more than the UAW workers pay, and I have no complaints.

My problems have nothing to do with the UAW, but are mostly related to my own weaknesses.

[Ghost Dog]

The only Hope is for Third party to go to the judge. An early retirement package for the old guard. the Newer employees on the lower tier should keep thier hourly rates.

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/uaw28_20040428.htm

Other details given to UAW officials indicated wages for future hires would top out at either $14.50, $16.50 or $18.50 per hour, depending on the job

New hires will pay annual health-care deductibles up to $1,000 for an individual or $2,000 for a family. They also will pay 50 percent more for prescription drugs than current UAW workers at Delphi and Visteon.

A union source also said that defined-benefit pensions would be replaced by 401(k) retirement savings accounts 

what happend to that? That Article is from 04.
when people like Miller come along, It's clear there is no compromise. Only War Edited October 29, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[Fiero88]

My main concern with the direction of the American economy is the outrageous federal budget deficit.  I want to see government spending slashed, especially entitlement spending.  Some taxes should be raised.

I am very pleased and thankful for my wages.  I pay about 30 percent of my health insurance premium, far more than the UAW workers pay, and I have no complaints.

My problems have nothing to do with the UAW, but are mostly related to my own weaknesses.

[post="36050"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

In simple English, COLA diversion amounts to a health care premium. Not adjusting for inflation, or accounting for overtime, or calculating Travel COLA concessions, the accumulated COLA diversion amounts to a minimum of $1,500 per year. COLA diversion is a code phrase for money diverted from wages to offset the cost of health care. Below is a short history of GM/UAW COLA diversion.

COLA Diversions for Health Care year cents per hour
1964 2 cents,
1967 2 cents,
1976 6 cents,
1982 16 cents,
1984 13 cents,
1990 14 cents,
1993 22 cents,
1996 2 cents,
1999 2 cents
(79 cents total).

.79 x 40(hours) = 31.60 x 52(weeks) = $1,643.30 of UAW/GM wages are diverted currently into healthcare.

Now add .17(COLA)+ .83 (wage increase) = $1.00 x 40(hours) = 40.00 x 52(weeks) = $2,080.00 + $1,643.30 = $3,723.30 diverted wages into healthcare that the UAW worker will be paying and getting no credit for.

THIS DOES NOT COUNT ANY OVERTIME WAGE GIVEBACKS/DIVERSIONS/PAYMENTS!

$3,723.30 next year for a UAW worker's healthcare payment, how much did you say you were/are paying? Edited October 29, 2005 by Fiero88