Lutz: '09 Pontiac G8 GT gets optional Tremec 6-speed stick

[Intrepidation]

CarDomain recently sat for lunch with GM car czar Bob Lutz, and one of the topics that came up was the ever-vanishing manual transmission. Lutz explained that modern automatics are no longer the less efficient option by default, and with CAFE dictating so much nowadays, carmakers can actually lower their fleet average fuel economy more by going with automatics that can be programmed to deliver maximum efficiency (as far as the EPA is concerned, at least). He then went on to state that there will be manuals available in both the Camaro and the 2009 Pontiac G8 GT, which gets a 6-speed unit from Tremec. So if you waited on Poncho's new muscle sedan, your patience will be rewarded. Of course, your patience will also got you a price increase too, but at least those dopey digital auxiliary gauges will be gone, as well.

Source: Autoblog

[CSpec]

Cool. Get those G8s while you can!

[Blake Noble]

Bravo GM on listening to what the people and customers are saying.

Now if you only would just listen a little more closely ... :AH-HA_wink:

And if I am reading this correctly, will there be more cars available with manual transmissions in light of new CAFE regulations? If so, well, I guess one small bit of good came out of all of this.

Edited June 20, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Intrepidation]

Bravo GM on listening to what the people and customers are saying.

Now if you only would just listen a little more closely ... :AH-HA_wink:

And if I am reading this correctly, will there be more cars available with manual transmissions in light of new CAFE regulations? If so, well, I guess one small bit of good came out of all of this.

Sorry dude, but it actually said that manufacturers are moving away from it because automaticsa are no longer less efficient, because of the way they can be programed.

[Blake Noble]

Sorry dude, but it actually said that manufacturers are moving away from it because automaticsa are no longer less efficient, because of the way they can be programed.

Great.

[Intrepidation]

I know right?

But hey, we're getting a stick in the GT, so we can be happy for that.

Edited June 20, 2008 by Dodgefan

[hyperv6]

This is a upgraded T5 that is called a T660. It will be used in most new performance applications form 2009 and forward.

GM did not delay this tranny in the G8 as they were waiting for the tranny to become available. Not the Challanger also did not get this till late as it is the same tranny.

All the bashing GM took for the delay should really have been directed at Tremec.

[Windy-57]

Glad to see this.

I know this was planned long before recent troubles, but I see this as a sign of GM's commitment to Pontiac.

[Ryan27]

I would rather have those "dopey gauges" instead of nothing, So I really hope they are replaced by some analog guages, or something.... not just a hole or compartment. I really dont see what was so bad about them, they may not have been very useful, but in my book, if its red, and it lights up, it cant be that bad..

[Lamar]

All the bashing GM took for the delay should really have been directed at Tremec.

Like that would ever happen...

[Lamar]

... double post ...

Edited June 20, 2008 by Lamar

[Camino LS6]

About freakin time!

Now where is the official name for the G8 "ST"?

[Satty]

I'd suspect G8 D.O.A. if they want to represent what its going to do when it goes on sale.

[hyperv6]

About freakin time!

Now where is the official name for the G8 "ST"?

I am sure it is in the hands of the GM law department and marketing trying to decide what one will piss the least people off and cost GM the least to hold tittle on.

If it was as easy as just picking a name.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Get used to it guys.

Pretty soon we'll all be driving battery powered, slush box propelled p*ssy mobiles.

At least people like Satty can get their rox off thinking that they're saving a planet that's already doomed to burn in hell anyway. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[cire]

This is good news.

Now Lutz needs to tell us that GM has figured out a way to give Pontiac an all RWD future product portfolio. All you need is a next generation Solstice roadster/coupe, a modified Kappa subcompact 5-door, an Alpha based sedan/coupe, a SWB SigZeta sedan/coupe, and a LWB SigZeta sedan. Use turbocharged Ecotec engines of various displacements as base engines (except in the LWB SigZeta) to provide reasonable performance and decent fuel economy (along with hybrid and diesel options). Other engines (V6 and V8 in regular or turbocharged formats) could be used as performance trim upgrades. Pontiac has so much potential to be something unique and special in the U.S. market if GM worked diligently to make it happen. They have the talent and resources to give this division cars that are fun to drive and offer reasonable performance as well as decent fuel economy.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I really dont see what was so bad about them, they may not have been very useful, but in my book, if its red, and it lights up, it cant be that bad..

The attention deficit disorder of North American Car Buyers couldn't have been illustrated better.

[ocnblu]

Well, we knew the GXP was going to get the manual, but the GT is, too? This is good news. I'd really like to see a manual with the V6 and the 2.0L turbo Ecotec, as well. I'm glad somebody remembers that driving can be exciting in a properly equipped car.

[Satty]

At least people like Satty can get their rox off thinking that they're saving a planet that's already doomed to burn in hell anyway. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

50% of the cars in my driveway have manual transmissions. 90% of my driving is in a car with 3-pedals. Just sayin.

[Windy-57]

This is good news.

Now Lutz needs to tell us that GM has figured out a way to give Pontiac an all RWD future product portfolio. All you need is a next generation Solstice roadster/coupe, a modified Kappa subcompact 5-door, an Alpha based sedan/coupe, a SWB SigZeta sedan/coupe, and a LWB SigZeta sedan. Use turbocharged Ecotec engines of various displacements as base engines (except in the LWB SigZeta) to provide reasonable performance and decent fuel economy (along with hybrid and diesel options). Other engines (V6 and V8 in regular or turbocharged formats) could be used as performance trim upgrades. Pontiac has so much potential to be something unique and special in the U.S. market if GM worked diligently to make it happen. They have the talent and resources to give this division cars that are fun to drive and offer reasonable performance as well as decent fuel economy.

I agree with a lot of what you have here, but a couple things to note:

1. They don't need two Zetas in this market and with GM's brand structure, the other Zeta could land somewhere else.

2. I know we all want Pontiac to be entirely RWD, but the modified Kappa would likely be expensive to execute and it would be tough to make the price point necessary for that type of vehicle. But, why can't you have a FWD compact hatch? VW's GTi is FWD and damn fun to drive. I've been saying Pontiac would be well served by a car like that for a while.

[Windy-57]

Pretty soon we'll all be driving battery powered, slush box propelled p*ssy mobiles.

This is the type of thinking that belies a lot of opportunity in the market. Sure, electric will never have that classic sound or feel of a muscle car, but that doesn't mean it can't be performance based. I know it's expensive, but the Tesla roadster puts up some pretty good numbers. I personally think there is a huge potential to do a hybrid or series-hybrid focused on performance and it's a great way to give Pontiac huge dose of relevance it critically needs.

[regfootball]

Well, we knew the GXP was going to get the manual, but the GT is, too? This is good news. I'd really like to see a manual with the V6 and the 2.0L turbo Ecotec, as well. I'm glad somebody remembers that driving can be exciting in a properly equipped car.

exactly. for me what i would actually PREFER in my g8 would be a twin turbo v6 3.6 DI high feature (dare i say ECOTEC). Or even the 300hp DI HF v6 with a 6 speed manual. I'd like AWD also, but you can't always get what you want mick said.

why not a ecotec 2.4 turbo, w/ 300hp or so?

for the record, i want alpha pontiacs too and i think buick needs the chinese park avenue NOW. I also feel a caprice from chevy would work too. GM needs to pull their head out of their ass.

Edited June 21, 2008 by regfootball

[cire]

I agree with a lot of what you have here, but a couple things to note:

1. They don't need two Zetas in this market and with GM's brand structure, the other Zeta could land somewhere else.

2. I know we all want Pontiac to be entirely RWD, but the modified Kappa would likely be expensive to execute and it would be tough to make the price point necessary for that type of vehicle. But, why can't you have a FWD compact hatch? VW's GTi is FWD and damn fun to drive. I've been saying Pontiac would be well served by a car like that for a while.

The 2 SigZeta cars would have different exterior dimensions than the current Holden based Zeta cars. The next generation G8 is the car that I intended to be built on the LWB SigZeta; it would retain its role as Pontiac's flagship sedan. The next generation G8 would be about the same size it is today (about 197 inches) on a longer wheelbase (118 inches). I envisioned the SWB SigZeta as a RWD midsize replacement for the G6; the car would be about 189/190 inches long on a 114 inch wheelbase. The SWB SigZeta based G6 would fill the gap between the next generation G8 and the Alpha sedan, which will be a compact product (about 181/182 inches long on a 108 inch wheelbase) if I understand all the info that I have read about Alpha so far. This would give Pontiac a sedan to cover the compact (Alpha), midsize (SWB SigZeta G6), and large (LWB SigZeta G8) sedan segments. I think the Pontiac lineup could still be aligned with the Holden lineup. From what I understand, the current Commodore/Calais and Statesman/Caprice are not selling as well as before due to rising gas prices in Australia. Maybe lighter, downsized models with more fuel efficient engine choices would improve the cars' sales performance Down Under in addition to providing a nice 3-tier sedan lineup for Pontiac in the States (they could be sold as Chevys in the Middle East). I would build the Pontiac models in the U.S. (the Holden and Middle East Chevy models could still be built in Australia) along with their Cadillac platform mates.

I viewed the modified Kappa based subcompact 5-door as more of a small specialty car than a mainstream small car (sort of a more practical 2+2 companion to the Solstice roadster/coupe). Idealistically, I would love to see it on a modified Kappa or shortened Alpha platform (about 172/173 inches long on a 104 inch wheelbase). I do understand your argument about the expenses of developing such a car on Kappa or Alpha. If GM can develop the car to sell at a reasonable premium, then I would like to see them do it. If they can't, I would rather see them drop the project. Chevy and Saturn/Opel can handle the FWD subcompact segment with the Aveo and Corsa, respectively. I agree with you that a fun FWD product could be developed, but I'm afraid that GM would take the easy way out and simply apply a twin nostriled snout to an Aveo or Corsa (and knowing GM's tendency to rebadge Chevys for Pontiac, it would turn out to be an Aveo). I've seen the proposed Aveo based G3 and it makes me want to hurl. If GM wanted to give Pontiac a FWD subcompact, I would like to see them do it right by giving the car its own unique exterior/interior design as well as more performance oriented features, powertrains, and suspension tuning. I just don't have enough faith in GM's ability to resist giving Pontiac another badge engineered Chevy clone at this point.

With GM's current financial state, I realize all of this is just a pipe dream. It would be great if it could somehow become a reality.

Edited June 21, 2008 by cire

[pow]

exactly. for me what i would actually PREFER in my g8 would be a twin turbo v6 3.6 DI high feature (dare i say ECOTEC). Or even the 300hp DI HF v6 with a 6 speed manual. I'd like AWD also, but you can't always get what you want mick said.

why not a ecotec 2.4 turbo, w/ 300hp or so?

for the record, i want alpha pontiacs too and i think buick needs the chinese park avenue NOW. I also feel a caprice from chevy would work too. GM needs to pull their head out of their ass.

+1

The G8 has gotten universally good reviews from the enthusiast press, but unfortunately the enthusiast market is still only a fraction of overall car sales.

Mainstream car buyers, who are facing $90 fill ups, care about things like fuel economy, and the current base engine's 17/25 mpg isn't cutting it. I think we're all in favor of broadening Pontiac's appeal if that keeps performance cars alive.

[michaelv13]

+1

The G8 has gotten universally good reviews from the enthusiast press, but unfortunately the enthusiast market is still only a fraction of overall car sales.

Mainstream car buyers, who are facing $90 fill ups, care about things like fuel economy, and the current base engine's 17/25 mpg isn't cutting it. I think we're all in favor of broadening Pontiac's appeal if that keeps performance cars alive.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Not everyone NEEDS a V-8. A car with balance of performance, fuel economy, luxury, and practicality at the size of G8 without losing the fun factor at a lesser horsepower, would be a good buy.

If the car can shed about 300 lb, we can get decent numbers.

[hyperv6]

Get used to it guys.

Pretty soon we'll all be driving battery powered, slush box propelled p*ssy mobiles.

At least people like Satty can get their rox off thinking that they're saving a planet that's already doomed to burn in hell anyway. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Even then we will do just as we aready have done growing up with Electric RC cars.

Bigger Batteries and more powerful Motors.

If you want you can make anything faster.

Hmmm... who will be the first to buy the Mallet Volt? It runs on electric till you want to race someone and then you fire up the 502 BBC in the back seat to do the deed.

We will always have fast but we will just have to learn new things.

[regfootball]

+1

The G8 has gotten universally good reviews from the enthusiast press, but unfortunately the enthusiast market is still only a fraction of overall car sales.

Mainstream car buyers, who are facing $90 fill ups, care about things like fuel economy, and the current base engine's 17/25 mpg isn't cutting it. I think we're all in favor of broadening Pontiac's appeal if that keeps performance cars alive.

to be honest the 17/25 rating isn't what kills me on the v6 with the g8. hear me out, i've driven the v6 and v8 of the g8. i've driven the aura xr with the 3.6 and the thing has balls. the same 3.6 in the g8 is neutered and i don't think its due to extra weight per se. its the $h!ty transmission they put in the g8 v6. the 5 speed auto i did not think harnesses all the power the v6 has. plus all the power robbing 90 degree changes in the load path of the driveline that rwd has vs fwd. if the v6 became like a 290hp DI and the tranny became a good 6 speed (even ford has good 6 speeds now) then i think you'd have a scenario where the v6 is desirable and could conceivably justify ownership in spite of its gas mileage. keep in mind many fancy imports with 4 poppers and such don't really get better mileage either in ratings or real world. the small block at low rpms will sip fuel on road trips but will guzzle it in town which is where most people will drive. I am tempted by the notion of a stick shift GT but the RWD only makes me nervous in my climate, even with snow tires (all that power).

even though pontiac touts 50/50 weight on the G8 GT if you read road tests its coming in around 52-53% on the front which every percent hurts you in a cold climate as far as rear traction. the turbo 6 might weigh as much as a small block though, and even the largest 4 popper turbo which would be light on the front end might still not have enough torque....hard to say.

in all my rwd cars, the ones that were worst in winter and in general for nose plow were the heavy v8 cars. my 77 century coupe with the 3.8 231 v6 (like 100hp!) was so light on the front end in comparison to the v8 versions of the regal and cutlass of that day, but it was one of the best winter cars I have had. Neutral in the snow because the front was not a boat anchor.

ultimate point.....i don't think the gas mileage for the v6 is that much of a transgression when really its the fact that the powertrain does not utilize the gas or the 256hp (whatever it is) in a very efficient and smooth fashion. By my seat of the pants the v6 g8 is a full second or a bit more slower to 60 than the Aura XR which to me is troublesome. Notice we don't have instrumented testing of the v6 g8 in the buff books yet. Anyone knwo what's its testing out in AU? final point, the aussies get the v6 stick combo......wish we could.

Edited June 21, 2008 by regfootball

[The O.C.]

50% of the cars in my driveway have manual transmissions. 90% of my driving is in a car with 3-pedals. Just sayin.

I've got you beat.....100% of the cars in my driveway have three pedals and I wouldn't have it any other way.

:AH-HA_wink:

[regfootball]

I've got you beat.....100% of the cars in my driveway have three pedals and I wouldn't have it any other way.

:AH-HA_wink:

you must be counting that footbrake

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well, we knew the GXP was going to get the manual, but the GT is, too? This is good news. I'd really like to see a manual with the V6 and the 2.0L turbo Ecotec, as well. I'm glad somebody remembers that driving can be exciting in a properly equipped car.

+1

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

2. I know we all want Pontiac to be entirely RWD, but the modified Kappa would likely be expensive to execute and it would be tough to make the price point necessary for that type of vehicle. But, why can't you have a FWD compact hatch? VW's GTi is FWD and damn fun to drive. I've been saying Pontiac would be well served by a car like that for a while.

+1 again

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

We will always have fast but we will just have to learn new things.

A lot of times it's the experience that counts, not the speed.

[Allen K]

Sorry guys... that is false information. G8 GT isn't getting a manual.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/24/correct...l-6-speed-stic/

[Camino LS6]

Idiots.

[Windy-57]

Not good...not good at all.

Personally, I don't understand even having the G8 if it's not going to have a stick option.

[Intrepidation]

Aww, that sucks.

[Robert Hall]

Sorry guys... that is false information. G8 GT isn't getting a manual.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/24/correct...l-6-speed-stic/

I assume GM looked at the Charger, it sells ok with a V8 and no manual. Americans as a whole just don't like manuals...

[Camino LS6]

I assume GM looked at the Charger, it sells ok with a V8 and no manual. Americans as a whole just don't like manuals...

Screw that.

A car like the G8 demands a manual option. To not offer it is to not understand the nature of the car and its market. The BMW recipe should make this obvious.

[Robert Hall]

Screw that.

A car like the G8 demands a manual option. To not offer it is to not understand the nature of the car and its market. The BMW recipe should make this obvious.

Yeah, but again, they probably ran the numbers and thought it wasn't cost effective. If they did offer a manual, what would be projected percentage? The European and Japanese sports sedan market has always supported manuals, but the American market has been dominated by automatics for so long... (i.e. buyers of domestics overwhelmingly prefer automatics).

Edited June 25, 2008 by moltar

[gm4life]

This sucks for people who want a stick. I would be happy either way and with the six speed auto at least you can use it as an auto-stick dealy.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I saw this when DF posted it, however I recalled that was not the case, but I was out last week for surgery so I decided to send a few E-Mails out to see if it had changed, it had not. Which is why you see GM contacted Autoblog, better to know now, than be surprised later. It seems Mr. Lutz says more than his prayers.

[ZL-1]

Yeah, but again, they probably ran the numbers and thought it wasn't cost effective. If they did offer a manual, what would be projected percentage? The European and Japanese sports sedan market has always supported manuals, but the American market has been dominated by automatics for so long... (i.e. buyers of domestics overwhelmingly prefer automatics).

it's basic economics: the few people waiting in line to buy a manual G8 aren't enough to justify the costs.

[Intrepidation]

I'd like to know: if they put a manual in other Holdens, which is what the G8 is, how much extra could it cost?

I mean, what kind of testing do they have to do that is different here than from the rest of the world...do people shift with their feet in other markets so the tranmission must be calibrated for foot actuion, and allow their hands to work the clutch?

[Robert Hall]

I'd like to know: if they put a manual in other Holdens, which is what the G8 is, how much extra could it cost?

I mean, what kind of testing do they have to do that is different here than from the rest of the world...do people shift with their feet in other markets so the tranmission must be calibrated for foot actuion, and allow their hands to work the clutch?

Well, the Holdens are RHD. I'm assuming they have LHD manual Zetas for the Middle East Chevys; but for the US they have would have to certify the powertrain combo for emissions...this seems to be a situation where GM is trying to avoid spending the $$$ on something they don't think the sales volume would justify. Unfortunate.

[Intrepidation]

Well, the Holdens are RHD. I'm assuming they have LHD manual Zetas for the Middle East Chevys; but for the US they have would have to certify the powertrain combo for emissions...this seems to be a situation where GM is trying to avoid spending the $$$ on something they don't think the sales volume would justify. Unfortunate.

I suppose that makes sense, but like you said, it's unfortuneate.

[regfootball]

you get tired of hearing the 'certification costs' bull$h! after awhile.

the commodore has a v6 stick option too.....why dont we get that?

maybe we need global emissions and crash testing so this having to dump big $$$ on the feds restricts our choices.

[hyperv6]

you get tired of hearing the 'certification costs' bull$h! after awhile.

the commodore has a v6 stick option too.....why dont we get that?

maybe we need global emissions and crash testing so this having to dump big $$$ on the feds restricts our choices.

You already have the California tree huggers and a few other states that can't agree on a federal law what do you think the greens would do to us if they could.

It is not fun times to run a auto company. You have eviors complaining too much smog too little econo. You have ethusiast who say not enough power and tranny options but at times not enough buyers to justify meeting gov regs. You have the general public not trusting your product now fixed due to past failures of past leaders. It goes on and on. The gas prices just have added more fuel to the fire so to speak.

I still blame helmet laws, seat belt laws and the lack of a world war that has let too many dumb people live and mess up the lives of the stable people. Time to thin the hurd.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well I'm sure the herd will thin out when some terrorist group or some fringe government detonates a nuclear dirty bomb in some city on the earth. I'm sure we will see this happen in our lifetime.

[z28luvr01]

FWIW, the take rate for M6 GTOs was very high. Any leftovers were all automatics. Ditto the last LS1 F-bodies.

Don't underestimate the number of people who would want a manual G8 but don't have the dough for the GXP. Rather, spend your energy figuring out how many people GM is turning off by not offering a manual on the non-GXP cars. A M6 G8 with any engine, even the V6, should be a very easy sell.

[Blake Noble]

The lack of a manual transmission is the limiting factor as to why I will not consider buying a G8, and many other cars for that matter. I find automatics cumbersome to drive.