GM may kill another brand , did anybody say Pontiac? Also delays GMT 900 replacements.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That is a huge example of stupidity; one of Saturn's bigger problems is limited exposure and dealer network. It's hard to expect a brand to do well when many don't even know where to find or if it exists, or care that it exists.

OTOH, many do know Saturn exists. Identity, corporate, or brand-wise is covered by two things: actual product and the image you use to sell that product. For many years Saturn have been the friendly car company, thier cars were quirky, different and at worst downright silly. thier was an interest for a time to see where the brand could go, and certainly the method of selling the cars seemed appealing at the time when people were just understanding the car sales process, but now times have changed, people are informed, and they enter a dealer with a command of product and cost knowledge, they want to make a deal, they understand the basic rule of always saying no to the dealer, in many cases anyways. the time passed for Saturn to take advantage of public goodwill, and then Saturn became Ion and L-series, silly cars with silly faces, where the execution severly damaged the brand in people's eyes. if this was all they were going to become you can cross them off the list, they aren't engaged in the real competition enough. those silly faces became instinctive identifiers, somehting BMW, MB get to the core, and GM unlike it's domestic partner Ford has yet to figure out. The faces are what people remember, and that face of the Ion and L-series became a quick reference point for a quacked out brand.

Now Saturn has a face that is not altogether memorable or distinctive. Their face has appeared elsewhere, derivations of it. the face launches the idea of what a brand is in people's minds. while attractive, the new face of Saturn does not instantly set them apart, like say Nissan's did in 2002, which helped re-establish that brand, at a time when this kind of reaction is really necessary since GM is relaunching the brand.

Now Saturn's positioning within GM is dubious at best. Where are they taking it? Is it supposed to compete with Acura/VW/Volvo? Well, the current pricing doesn't reflect that, and GM doesn't seem eager to market that image on thier most premium car, the premium compact Astra, with its slight premium price increase over other compacts. If it is supposed to be premium, where does that leave Pontiac and Buick, the supposed premium brands. If it's supposed to be mainstream, which is what the pricing reflects now [and yet product is faltering with affordable mainstream pricing], why the hell is it there? You have Chevrolet which is an all encompassing, incredibly exposed, well respected brand, and also might I mention seems to have a very easy time of making cars hits all due to its massive exposure, consumer familiarity, and available dealer network.

So what is Saturn? And will product like Insignia and the new Astra be able to command a premium price increase underneath the Saturn label? It's already dubious anyone sees Saturn as a premium label.

I will inject some phenomonal Pontiac bias here, Ponitac otoh, seems to have no problem selling those above $30k G8s, in terrible consumer climates, in conquest markets like my own, and with no product/advertising exposure.

My bottom line, I don't know if Saturn should go because of the dealer costs and what not. However, this is a very tricky pickle that GM has gotten themselves into. It'd be a lot easier to turn Saturn into a boutique Scion-esque brand, that wouldn't require as much effort as turning them into a full line brand and attracting the kinds of people [read: conservative older folks] that look into those kinds of brands.

Excellent post!

[4gm]

Even if they axe a division or 2 GM will still be stuck with execs who have absolutely proven they don't know what customers want in a passenger car. They can throw all the extra money they'll save on having fewer division but if they keep on making dumb decision like not offering the new Corsa in America or watering down the Anatara conept design for production then there's no helping them.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Hummer is already gone, you just don't know that yet. My understanding is that another brand is on the chopping block. There are four possibilities, two of which I am told have Saviors, so they won't be cut.

1. GMC

2. Pontiac

3. Saab (Savior)

4. Buick (Savior)

I would argue in defense of GMC being kept instead of Chevy Trucks since a GMC truck could be sold at any GM dealership, but Chevy is the world brand so it will not be cut.

I also hear GMC would be the easiest to replace, since it's only a badge replacement, however Pontiac has already lost it's Performance designation within GM and is running a close second to be given the axe. Meetings took place about this yesterday and will continue.

Whichever one leaves BPC, there would now be room to merge Saturn in with that group, since all three report to the same person in the higher scheme of things at GM.

Just remember things are changing daily at GM so any of this could change at a moments notice. It's crazy at times!

Well, even with high gas prices I guess if this is GM's plan, I'll have to find a way out of my AURA lease and get a new GMC while I can. Fire sale pricing FTW!!!

As a brand image, Pontiac has more relevance than GMC (particularly considering gas prices.) GMC can go and nobody will miss it - especially if you spread their budget to Chevy trucks, Pontiac and Buick. What does GMC offer that Chevy doesn't...the Acadia, that's it - and in about 3 months Chevy will have the Traverse.

Well, I think I'm SOMEBODY and I will miss it

[Blake Noble]

Well, I think I'm SOMEBODY and I will miss it

I'll miss it too and hope for the best for GMC. I would really hate to see it go. But I guess if it comes down to GMC or Pontiac getting the axe, I would painfully choose GMC.

[The O.C.]

Marketing is GMs problem, not "too many divisions" (You know, the 4 it has -- Because lets face it, the new dealer channels pretty much ARE the divisions now. And that equals 1) Chevrolet 2) Saturn 3) P/B/GMC & 4) Cadillac/Hummer/Saab)

OK....can we get this straight once again........PBG and CHS are not "divisions".....they are distribution channels.

Chevrolet is a division

Saturn is a division

Pontiac is a division

Buick is a division

GMC is a division

Cadillac is a division

Hummer is a division

Saab is, I don't know if a division, but definitely something similar.

That's 8 divisions guys.

[The O.C.]

Pontiac and Vauxhall should go. There's nothing that Pontiac makes that can't be rebadged a Buick or Chevrolet. Vauxhall should become Opel or Holden. Why should they have to come up with distinct Vauxhall versions for England only?

Vauxhalls really are simply re-badged Opels (in the purest sense.)

From everything I know and have seen, they really do share everything excepts the badges. Trim, interiors, bodywork, powertrains, everything.

[biff]

I see the business case for cutting GMC over Pontiac. Given the choice, I'll always pick GMC over a Chevrolet truck. I'd even drive other brands over some years of Chevy's. If they cut a division, not everyone is going switch to other GM products. If they'd cut GMC when i'm ready for another new pickup, I'd probably get a Dodge. Just not a fan of those buldging fenders.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I see the business case for cutting GMC over Pontiac. Given the choice, I'll always pick GMC over a Chevrolet truck. I'd even drive other brands over some years of Chevy's. If they cut a division, not everyone is going switch to other GM products. If they'd cut GMC when i'm ready for another new pickup, I'd probably get a Dodge. Just not a fan of those buldging fenders.

This always baffles me, the only difference between the 2 brands are the badging (GMC vs Chevrolet) and slight differences in the grille and headlights. Other than that, Chevy and GMC trucks are the same, they are built at the same plants with the same components (engines, transmissions, etc), so why you would pick a Dodge over a Chevy, if GMC wasn't produced, to me just doesn't make logical sense.

[gmcbob]

This always baffles me, the only difference between the 2 brands are the badging (GMC vs Chevrolet) and slight differences in the grille and headlights. Other than that, Chevy and GMC trucks are the same, they are built at the same plants with the same components (engines, transmissions, etc), so why you would pick a Dodge over a Chevy, if GMC wasn't produced, to me just doesn't make logical sense.

I'm beginning to think that nothing makes sense to me when it involves automobiles these days. hahahahahaha!

[CSpec]

This always baffles me, the only difference between the 2 brands are the badging (GMC vs Chevrolet) and slight differences in the grille and headlights. Other than that, Chevy and GMC trucks are the same, they are built at the same plants with the same components (engines, transmissions, etc), so why you would pick a Dodge over a Chevy, if GMC wasn't produced, to me just doesn't make logical sense.

I think what people say they will do if the brand is cut and what they will actually buy don't necessarily agree.

[gmcbob]

"Mad Money Cramer" is waxing thoughtful Re: 'Prepackaged' bankruptcies for GM and Ford. I must say that this is the first time since Rick Wagoner stated (in paraphrase) back in '05; "No one buys cars from a bankrupt car company" that I have even considered the possibility. That is me. I am aware that it's been bandied about for a couple of years, but now, it seems more plausible. Opinions on what that could look like?

I think it would be really ugly if one of the Big 3 declared bankruptcy. It would be headline news for days, and whichever one did it would have a lot of trouble trying to sell cars here in the US under their respective brands ever again - it would be devastating economically (especially in the Midwest), and for a lot of car guys like us, it would be a real emotional kick in the crotch. I think it would take a long time for me to get my head around never having a new Chevy on the road in America. I'd be real bummed. I think I'd have to find a new interest for a while - at least just west of Houston there's some incredibly good bird watching.

But I also I have to think that a lot of the so called financial experts that write blogs, write short money management articles for CNN, and have shows like "Mad Money Cramer" (he strikes me as more of an entertainer than an analyst BTW) don't know that much at all about the automobile industry. I've never worked in the auto industry, but from what I can tell, and from my what my Dad had said in the past (worked his way through GM and up to a Buick District Zone Manager for many, many years) - is that this industry is incredibly unique in just how insanely convoluted it can seem, and can be made to seem, from a financial standpoint. I know my Pops was a little crazy, but I think a lot of what he said was probably right - and one of the things he always used to say was "no matter what GM tells you is happening, or how much financial trouble they seem to be having, the accountants there are the cleverest bastards in the world, and they have more tricks up their sleeves than anybody. Wall Street knows nothing about how cars are built or how they're sold, not a damn thing". In other words - Wall St. and TV personality stock analysts should probably not be considered the last word in how the car industry is really doing.

GM is a very large company, it's bigger outside the US than it is inside the US. I think if GM really gets into a bind, they'll take out a loan against GME or something before they'd declare bankruptcy. Let's face it, even though they only have 20% of it, the US is still a lucrative market - they know this and they're going to try very hard not to completely lose it. My guess is this: they'll continue to use the profits from Asia, Europe and South America to develop more and more [small, fuel efficient] cars in those parts of the world and keep the entire steam engine running down the tracks, while simultaneously work to downsize their foot print in the American market. I'm not sure how, or what kind of legal and financial ramifications it may have, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see only Chevrolet, Cadillac and maybe Saturn/Saab left in the USA a few years down the road. It'll be hard, it'll suck for us guys who thought Pontiacs were cool and should stay, but it's probably going to happen. Do I think it should - well, I don't know, I sometimes wonder if the meetings at GM start off with a few deep pulls from an insanely large bong loaded with hash, but it if PCS is right, it looks like that's what's going to happen. But it might be just what the doctor ordered in this case - they let Toyota and Honda trample all over them like women stomping grapes, but maybe now they're realizing that purging the house of cost might be what's needed. I'm just wondering if that by doing so, they're purging the house of value too (with all of these brands/history, so much clever, cool things can be done). All I can say is - I truly hope the Volt goes down in history like the iPod, and that it changes the perception of GM being an old, non innovative company - it's what they need I think.

[longtooth]

Responding to "gmcbob": Thanks for your well-reasoned and insightful comments. I believe much as you do in my thinking that GM bought the Renaissance Center to hedge against a possible future requirement for cash. My cynical side rationalizes their leasing it to the Chinese for 99 years for a Hundred Billion or so. Chinese investment cartels have that much rattling around under their sofa cushions so flush with success are they.

I'm committed to riding the GM stock price 'coaster so long as GM seems to project the will to try.

[BigPontiac]

This always baffles me, the only difference between the 2 brands are the badging (GMC vs Chevrolet) and slight differences in the grille and headlights. Other than that, Chevy and GMC trucks are the same, they are built at the same plants with the same components (engines, transmissions, etc), so why you would pick a Dodge over a Chevy, if GMC wasn't produced, to me just doesn't make logical sense.

I see his point. I cross shopped Chevy vs. GMC for both of my GMC purchases: 1994 GMC Sonona and 2000 GMC Sierra. The Chevy's always appeared to be cheaper interior-wise and the GMC always has the better styling. GMC has built up goodwill with me, so I'm inclined to start there when I look for another truck. But styling-wise, killing the GMC makes me more inclined to more seriously consider the Dodge as well since I'm not a fan of the current styling on the Silverado -- though some of that can be attributed to GM's decision to make the doors slab-sided to facility reuse on the SUVs, dropping the two-tone paint option, moving from chrome to painted surfaces in many cases, etc. Many of the attributes I liked about my current truck got killed during the re-design, however Ford and Dodge still offer them.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well, even with high gas prices I guess if this is GM's plan, I'll have to find a way out of my AURA lease and get a new GMC while I can. Fire sale pricing FTW!!!

Well, I think I'm SOMEBODY and I will miss it

LOL.. I know right.

GMC is only GM's second best selling division, but "no one will miss it"

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

OK....can we get this straight once again........PBG and CHS are not "divisions".....they are distribution channels.

Chevrolet is a division

Saturn is a division

Pontiac is a division

Buick is a division

GMC is a division

Cadillac is a division

Hummer is a division

Saab is, I don't know if a division, but definitely something similar.

That's 8 divisions guys.

Not really.. The whole point of the consolidation of the sales channels, especially B/P/GMC was to 'eliminate divisions without eliminating divisions' that's why not every GM division has to be full line anymore. That's also the same reason Saturn became Opel.

So essentially, GM has already shed at least 3 divisions. Saturn is now just Opel, the B/P/GMC merger eliminated at least one and Oldsmobile.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This always baffles me, the only difference between the 2 brands are the badging (GMC vs Chevrolet) and slight differences in the grille and headlights. Other than that, Chevy and GMC trucks are the same, they are built at the same plants with the same components (engines, transmissions, etc), so why you would pick a Dodge over a Chevy, if GMC wasn't produced, to me just doesn't make logical sense.

Marketing...

It's the same reason people buy Acura over Honda or Lexus over Toyota. It's all about image.

FWIW I was discussing this with one of my self employed Toyota driving friends here at the mill. He used to buy american and said that if GM phases out GMC, he would never consider a truck from them again because he's "not a Chevy guy"

I'll put money on the fact that the GMC brand pulls in more import loyalists that Chevy ANYDAY. And isn't that the market GM is after?

GMC should probably be paired down a bit but not eliminated. It's not about what you, or anyone at GM thinks is right. It's about the market and that's what GM can't seem to figure out now. GM NO LONGER DICTATES THE MARKET

[frogger]

How much would getting rid of Saturn save them? They still have to develop the Opel/Vauxhall equivalents.

There is so much rebadging going on, I'm not sure how much money is to be saved by axing a brand at this point. Pontiac is basically a badge on Holden/Chevy/Toyota vehicles. The G6 coupe is their most unique vehicle.

[Robert Hall]

Not really.. The whole point of the consolidation of the sales channels, especially B/P/GMC was to 'eliminate divisions without eliminating divisions' that's why not every GM division has to be full line anymore. That's also the same reason Saturn became Opel.

So essentially, GM has already shed at least 3 divisions. Saturn is now just Opel, the B/P/GMC merger eliminated at least one and Oldsmobile.

And it this point in time, exactly what constitutes a 'division'? Is it just a marketing (brand) organization? Everything is corporate..

Edited June 22, 2008 by moltar

[Oracle of Delphi]

And it this point in time, exactly what constitutes a 'division'? Is it just a marketing organization? After all, the hardware (engine, platform, etc) is GM corporate. Each each 'division' responsible for it's interior design and body styling, or is that corporate as well?

It's GM design, not Pontiac design, or Buick design, or Chevy design, etc, There are only GM Global Design Centers. Same with engineering, it's GM Global Engineering. There are no more divisions, there is only GM, who manages brands.

GM Global Design Centers Map

GM Design Europe - I am most familiar with this design center.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

Responding to "gmcbob": Thanks for your well-reasoned and insightful comments. I believe much as you do in my thinking that GM bought the Renaissance Center to hedge against a possible future requirement for cash. My cynical side rationalizes their leasing it to the Chinese for 99 years for a Hundred Billion or so. Chinese investment cartels have that much rattling around under their sofa cushions so flush with success are they.

I'm committed to riding the GM stock price 'coaster so long as GM seems to project the will to try.

GM would take out collateral loan on the 49 percent of GMAC they own , over any of the Auto business units.

[gmcbob]

The GM Europe design center looks cool.

I remember my Dad getting so upset when GM decided to become "GM" and not a bunch of divisions doing their own thing under one umbrella. But from a cost standpoint, running the company as one large organism when it comes to supply chain, design, marketing, finance and engineering makes way more sense to me. A lot of really huge companies that I've worked with on projects are moving or have already moved in this direction. Stupid economies of scale. (I work for a firm that does project work for Fortune 500 companies)

Edited June 22, 2008 by gmcbob

[biff]

This always baffles me, the only difference between the 2 brands are the badging (GMC vs Chevrolet) and slight differences in the grille and headlights. Other than that, Chevy and GMC trucks are the same, they are built at the same plants with the same components (engines, transmissions, etc), so why you would pick a Dodge over a Chevy, if GMC wasn't produced, to me just doesn't make logical sense.

For me there are 2 reasons not to buy a Silverado. There's a lot less GMC's (and Dodges) sold so it's easier to make my ride unique. My GMC is pretty much stock but it sticks out in the crowd because of the 2-tone paint and the color scheme isn't common. The other, I think the 09 Dodge looks cooler than the Silverado. As long as I'm not giving up too much on mileage, comfort, and performance, I'd buy a Dodge.

[balthazar]

>>"It's GM design, not Pontiac design, or Buick design, or Chevy design, etc, There are only GM Global Design Centers. Same with engineering, it's GM Global Engineering. There are no more divisions, there is only GM, who manages brands."<<

What happened with Cadillac Engineering, announced as reinstated about 2-3 years ago ???

[daves87rs]

>>"It's GM design, not Pontiac design, or Buick design, or Chevy design, etc, There are only GM Global Design Centers. Same with engineering, it's GM Global Engineering. There are no more divisions, there is only GM, who manages brands."<<

What happened with Cadillac Engineering, announced as reinstated about 2-3 years ago ???

True.....

[Oracle of Delphi]

>>"It's GM design, not Pontiac design, or Buick design, or Chevy design, etc, There are only GM Global Design Centers. Same with engineering, it's GM Global Engineering. There are no more divisions, there is only GM, who manages brands."<<

What happened with Cadillac Engineering, announced as reinstated about 2-3 years ago ???

Don't fool yourself, there is only GM Engineering.

[gm4life]

PCS so it Pontiac going? I hope Hummer is for sure.

[wildcat]

I can follow the logic people have mentioned, but I don't see how both GMC and Pontiac could go. As things are, Buick can't stand alone and, even if Saturn and Buick are paired together in one sales channel, it would be tough for them. Maybe it will be Hummer and Pontiac to go, and perhaps GMC's purpose/approach will get re-thought and it will be kept.

[bobo]

Buick should be paired with Cadillac. Cadillac should sacrifice some volume and become a truly aspirational, exclusive brand, and Buick customers deserve some coddling at the dealership. No more watered down FWD barges or truck badgejobs for Cadillac. Saturn combines with GMC and Pontiac, which becomes a scionesque sub-brand. GMC offerings need to decrease. There was no reason for them to have the Canyon. Sierra, Yukon, Acadia, and the commercial vehicles are enough.

[wildcat]

That would be a great idea to pair Buick with Cadillac. Think it's a possibility?

[vonVeezelsnider]

That would be a great idea to pair Buick with Cadillac. Think it's a possibility?

It's more than a possibility. It NEEDS to happen.

[gmcbob]

How interesting is this, Buick and Saturn could be together at one dealership here in the next few years- Saturn is essentially Opel, and Opel's were sold through Buick dealerships back in the 70s. "We meet again". Well, it sounds like the NG Buick (hopefully to be renamed Regal) will be an Opel Insignia.

So, if PCS isn't full of poop, then it's looking like we'll have the middle ground between Chevy and Caddy filled with Opel's rebadged as Saturns and Buicks of all things. Honestly, if they're really good cars, then that's ok with me. As long as they continue to build Cadillac as a BMW/Infiniti type brand (rwd), then making Buick/Saturn as European type fwd cars in the same vein as Audi, I guess that might work.

Actually, when my Dad was a district zone manager back in the 70s for Buick/Opel, he loved driving the Opels as company cars (it didn't happen often). I was actually surprised, but he talked about those Opel GT's years later as being really cool cars. Hmmm...those were rear drive.

At the end of the day though, GM needs at least a couple of rear drive sedans - no matter how bad the economy is, those cars will sell (maybe not in high volume numbers), but there's certainly a high profit market for those sedans (especially in places like China believe it or not). Caddy is it. And for the record, even if GME is responsible for the chassis going forward for Caddy, I don't care as long as the CTS remains "proper" - Caddy needs at least 1 or 2 rear drive cars to remain relevant in the $30k + market. We all know this is just the way it is. If GM screws up Caddy, then I'm out as a fan. That would be like rooting for the 1984 Buffalo Bills.

Future Buick/Saturn dealer

Saturn Astra - make it have standard XM and AUX connection you whackos!

Saturn Corsa

Saturn Sky

Saturn Vue

Saturn Insignia Coupe - you know, the Coupe concept vehicle that sort of reminds me of an Audi A5

Buick Regal - (Opel Insignia) unscathed

Buick Riviera - like the concept car revealed in China

Buick Park Avenue - Zeta car - now, I'm thinking Zeta's days are numbered - so maybe this will be on a Sigma (or Alpha) style architecture. Fully modern, rear drive sedan that's well appointed - marketed as an IS250/IS350 competitor. Am I dreaming? Probably, but if this car happened with current Buick styling, I'd jump around in front of my house naked.

Buick Skylark - smaller than Park Avenue, rear drive sedan that's about the size of a 1 Series or a TSX.

Edited June 29, 2008 by gmcbob

[haypops]

Don't fool yourself, there is only GM Engineering.

Back in the "day", they used to say that Saturn engineers were selected from those GM engineers who wore Birkenstock sandals. So were the Cadillac engineers those who happened to smoke a pipe and wear elbow patches on their tweed jackets?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Buick should be paired with Cadillac. Cadillac should sacrifice some volume and become a truly aspirational, exclusive brand, and Buick customers deserve some coddling at the dealership. No more watered down FWD barges or truck badgejobs for Cadillac. Saturn combines with GMC and Pontiac, which becomes a scionesque sub-brand. GMC offerings need to decrease. There was no reason for them to have the Canyon. Sierra, Yukon, Acadia, and the commercial vehicles are enough.

I agree, and have agreed with this view for a LONG time.

But as usual, GM is so schizophrenic that it couldn't make Cadillac what it wanted the division to be. Lutz & Co had the vision of Cadillac battling the best brands in the luxury market. It was never supposed to be the mass market whore that GME and the 'new vision' is trying to make it. Cadillac should be exclusive, BUICK should be 'luxury for everyone'

However, GMC's existence as is becomes very valid once profit margins are factored in.

I don't see why Pontiac couldn't share a showroom with Saturn, since saturn is supposed to be Oldsmobile now anyway (A step ABOVE Pontiac--- If the division could ever pull the prices it's supposed to). Pontiac's line up can be limited to what it should truly be (performance cars) and the Saturn franchise can use it's "cleaner" image to EXPAND and provide volume for that channel. It's an all around win, Pontiac stays, Saturn expands and the dealers benefit. But it'll never happen because it makes to much sense for GM to think it's a good idea.

Edited June 29, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[wildcat]

gmcbob: You don't think your example has (one) too many coupes - a Saturn Insignia and a Buick Riviera?

Are you thinking the Buick Invicta Concept will be the Regal? Is GMC still part of that sales channel wth Buick and Saturn?

Edited June 29, 2008 by wildcat

[wildcat]

It's more than a possibility. It NEEDS to happen.

But how many times can GM regroup?

[vonVeezelsnider]

But how many times can GM regroup?

They only need to do it once, and right.

It involves making Saab Europe-Only, Following PCS' Idea for Pontiac if they don't kill it, killing GMC, killing Saturn, and Selling Hummer. Lumping Buick with Cadillac. GMNA= Chev-Buick-Cadillac with perhaps an HSV like Pontiac.

[wildcat]

They only need to do it once, and right.

I'm counting B-P-G as one.

[ocnblu]

Pontiac needs to stay. Period. It is a core brand. These ancillaries like Hummer and Saturn should be jettisoned in a heartbeat before any more core brands are murdered. Saturn means nothing. It is a nothing brand since it's been assimilated. That much is crystal clear. If there HAS to be a GME presence in NA, add Corsa and US gen 2 Astra to Pontiac's lineup at the bottom, they'd be good fits. Edited June 29, 2008 by ocnblu

[wildcat]

Pontiac needs to stay. Period. It is a core brand.

Well, maybe that will happen. PCS last said, to the effect of, anything was possible, things were being discussed, and that they could change.

[prinzSD]

If Pontiac goes I might not ever be able to forgive them. With products like a Solstice and G8 it will be hard to axe then. Honestly in the current truck market Hummer and GMC seem like the obvious options to go. Get rid of Hummer and GMC first. I don't think GM should get rid of any brand it is hard enough to get customers not that you want to take away from you offer so people have less choices. Pontiac is a strong selling compared to Buick. I would axe Buick before I would axe Pontiac. I think Pontiac and GMC are each safe. I am concerned about Hummer, if they axe Pontiac I might have to buy Honda.

I agree, since Smokey and the Bandit was released I have been a Pontiac fan. Even with the demise of the Trans AM, I had a couple of Pontiacs to chose from if I wanted to buy another car, namely the GTO, Solstice, and now the G8. They kill Pontiac, there is nothing short of a Corvette that interests me from a Performance point of view at GM....... At that point I will look elsewhere and GM will loose yet another former loyal customer. So now Pontiac has lost it performance designation within GM and management does not know what to do with it. Pontiac should have never lost it performance perspective in the first place and now once again it might be on the chopping block. CEOs in America are full of &#036;h&#33; and ego and don't know how to run companies. They get enermous salaries, golden parachutes upon retirement even when the company they run bleeds money. These f@#kers should have their salaries tied to their performance, then maybe we would get better CEOs. Oh wait, maybe then, they all would be chicken &#036;h&#33;s and not want to take on the task. Better yet, they should do what their Japanese counterparts do when the company they manage fails...commit harai kari (suicide). My apologies to all, I am very pissed off at GM management starting with Smith, Smale to Wagoner...POS.

Edited June 30, 2008 by prinzSD

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I agree, since Smokey and the Bandit was released I have been a Pontiac fan. Even with the demise I the TRans AM I had a couple of Pontiacs to chose from if I wanted to buy another car, namely the GTO, Solstice, and now the G8. They kill Pontiac, there is nothing short of a Corvette that interests me from a Performance point of view at GM....... At that point I will look elsewhere and GM will loose yet another former loyal customer So now Pontiac has lost it performance designation within GM and management does not know what to do with it Pontiac should have never lost it performance perspective in the first place and nopw once again it might be on the chopping block CEOs in America are full of &#036;h&#33; and ego and don't know how to rum companieis. They get enermous salaries, golden parachutes upon retirement even when the company theyu run bleeds money. These f@#kers should have their salaries tied to their performance, then maybe we would get better CEOs. Oh wait, maybe then they all would be chicken &#036;h&#33;s and not want to take on the task. Better yet they should do what their Japanese counterparts do when the company they manage fails...commit harai kari (suicide). My apologies to all, I am very pissed off at GM management starting with Smith, Smale and to Wagoner...POS.

[wildcat]

Is it just a coincidence that GM Fastlane Blogs is taking a break for the first two weeks or so of July? So that the decision on which brand(s) to cut could be made and announced? Or am I too suspicious?

Edited June 30, 2008 by wildcat

[CSpec]

Is it just a coincidence that GM Fastlane Blogs is taking a break for the first two weeks or so of July? So that the decision on which brand(s) to cut could be made and announced? Or am I too suspicious?

Summer shutdown?

[wildcat]

Is that an annual thing? Does everything (plants, offices) get shut down?

[gm4life]

Are two brands getting cut? If Pontiac goes I will be pissed. That brand needs a little TLC tho, kill Saturn and Hummer. Move on. Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Pontiac all are core brands. Anymore trimming the tree and you will really piss away loyal customers like you did with Olds. I still haven't forgiven them for that the Alero and Aurora were great cars and Buick had a Century? And LeSabre? While Olds was selling Alero's like crazy to ex-Toyota owners.

Edited June 30, 2008 by gm4life

[Camino LS6]

This thread:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=22901

Is a really long read, but I think it says it all about this topic.

[wildcat]

I'd like to suggest we re-read Pontiac Custom-S's June 15, 2008 9:45pm post in "News & Views" > "General Motors News" > "GM Burning Cash Article" [ the one where he said, "If I had the power to save GMNA from itself, this is what I would do" ].

[GMTruckGuy74]

I'd like to suggest we re-read Pontiac Custom-S's June 15, 2008 9:45pm post in "News & Views" > "General Motors News" > "GM Burning Cash Article" [ the one where he said, "If I had the power to save GMNA from itself, this is what I would do" ].

At least he'd keep GMC alive!!!

[daves87rs]

Yep.

[Croc]

I'd like to suggest we re-read Pontiac Custom-S's June 15, 2008 9:45pm post in "News & Views" > "General Motors News" > "GM Burning Cash Article" [ the one where he said, "If I had the power to save GMNA from itself, this is what I would do" ].

Here we go:

If I had the power to save GMNA from itself, this is what I would do.

1. Make Chevrolet the value leader brand in price and function. Give them small cars (GMDAT) (Delta II), midsize cars (ep II), one large car, all FWD and Chevy Trucks, I also would give them and entry level CUV (Theta). They will retain the Camaro, no matter what platform it rides on. All platforms able to run off more than one type of Fuel, which I do think is a Federal law by 2010.

2. Make Pontiac the Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) of North America. Allow Pontiac to take any platform within GMNA (including Alpha) and infuse it with Pontiac DNA with RWD being it's focus, however every now and then allow Pontiac to take a FWD platform and do the same thing. I would also give the Corvette to Pontiac, since outside of North America it is not sold at Chevy, it is a brand unto itself.

3. Kill the Saturn brand name and change it to Opel/Saab, sell GM's European brands in North America through this outlet. Using GME's technology and Green initiatives.

4. As for Buick, they would get a small FWD (Delta II) car and a new Kappa(RWD) in 2012, EP II midsize, a large RWD sedan and of course the Enclave (Lambda). All Buicks will be designed by GM Chinese engineers since Buick's largest market is/will be China, however the platforms will be the same in China and North America, there will be no differences between a Chinese or American Buick, no matter where they are assembled. GMC would also be sold in the same Buick outlets in North America.

5. Cadillac would simply be GM's world Luxury brand, with all platforms being RWD and sold wherever in the world, the market will support it.

6. I would also have GM acquire a Motorcycle division or build it from the ground up, with fuel prices going up this would be an ideal addition to GM now, Hmmm, what name to use Oldsmobile or perhaps just GM Cycles. These stores would be stand alone stores, much like Honda and BMW motorcycles are.

7. I would jettison Hummer and perhaps make an offer to Chrysler for Jeep to fill that void. Jeep has a better environmental cache than Hummer does.

Well there are my ideas, I guess you are all glad I'm not the CEO now!