GM may kill another brand , did anybody say Pontiac? Also delays GMT 900 replacements.

[vonVeezelsnider]

So, assuming the P-B-G moves to selling Saturns, what happens to the "no haggle" shopping experience? Does it get applied to Buick and GMC too, or does it get eliminated at Saturn? Or does Saturn keep it, but Buick's and GMC's don't?

Better Not Be... I'll be royally pissed because that's the #1 Thing I Hate about Saturn.

[Camino LS6]

Seems to me that someone is searching for a scapegoat to protect those "wonderful Opels" that don't seem to be saving Saturn after all.

Saturn was, is, and always will be, a mistake.

Killing any other brand to make "room" for Saturn is a fool's errand.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I've been losing faith in GM for a while now. I don't think I will ever buy a GM car again if they kill Pontiac, except maybe the Corvette or CTS.

[balthazar]

>>"Seems to me that someone is searching for a scapegoat to protect those "wonderful Opels" that don't seem to be saving Saturn after all."<<

Opel had brief success in this country when they first started importing them, which was '58. By the late '60s sales were in the toilet, untill lack of interest killed it dead here. The Cadillac Opel (Catera) sparked nothing, and so far the Saturn Opels have sparked very little. Seems to me the continual, misguided faith in everything foreign won't allow the 'faithful' to open their eyes to the brand's potential in the U.S.... which has repeatedly been meager at best.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Fair enough. I guess I'm used to the New England presence of Saturn, I can get to 5 Saturn dealers within a 20min radius of my house. Most are either next to a P-B-G Dealership and under the same ownership, or there is a P-B-G Dealer within a mile of the Saturn store.

So, assuming the P-B-G moves to selling Saturns, what happens to the "no haggle" shopping experience? Does it get applied to Buick and GMC too, or does it get eliminated at Saturn? Or does Saturn keep it, but Buick's and GMC's don't?

I think no haggle is killing Saturn, why would I want to pay the full price of an Outlook when I can go next door and haggle with my GMC dealer for an Acadia.

Speaking of which, my concern is what happens to the Acadia if GMC goes away. Does it go to Chevy, if so what happens to the Traverse? Or does Pontiac get the Acadia, but remember Pontiac is car! I mentioned this in a meeting today.

[Robert Hall]

I think no haggle is killing Saturn, why would I want to pay the full price of an Outlook when I can go next door and haggle with my GMC dealer for an Acadia.

Speaking of which, my concern is what happens to the Acadia if GMC goes away. Does it go to Chevy, if so what happens to the Traverse? Or does Pontiac get the Acadia, but remember Pontiac is car! I mentioned this in a meeting today.

Well, the Acadia is a car, right? Unibody FWD/AWD platform...not a truck.

[Blake Noble]

Speaking of which, my concern is what happens to the Acadia if GMC goes away. Does it go to Chevy, if so what happens to the Traverse? Or does Pontiac get the Acadia, but remember Pontiac is car! I mentioned this in a meeting today.

How about the Acadia goes away and goes away for good? Why does it have to go elsewhere? Couldn't the Outlook go just a little more upmarket?

[Intrepidation]

The Acadia is the current best seller among the Lambdas if I'm not mistaken. However it has no brand identity, GMC has none at all...just the logo. So you could slap any other logo on there. I liked the idea I think Camino tossed around about reducing the rands to one or 2 models, and 2 or 3 brands would create a complete lineup.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well, the Acadia is a car, right? Unibody FWD/AWD platform...not a truck.

The public views it as a truck, same reason the Torrent was going to go to GMC, also another Unibody FWD/AWD platform.

[Camino LS6]

You might want to bring up the fact that "Pontiac is Car" is an inane tagline at the next meeting, PCS.

That said, Lambdas and the Torrent have no business wearing an arrowhead.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Here is something to think about also, if Pontiac is killed, it gives Holden more capacity to build some small cars (I am not talking about Alpha) it is interested in doing. Remember they only have one assembly plant there.

[Camino LS6]

Here is something to think about also, if Pontiac is killed, it gives Holden more capacity to build some small cars (I am not talking about Alpha) it is interested in doing. Remember they only have one assembly plant there.

Great.

That way two brands can suffer!

[Camino LS6]

I don't know who is sitting around the table at these meetings PCS, but I am beginning to think that they must have lost their minds.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I don't know who is sitting around the table at these meetings PCS, but I am beginning to think that they must have lost their minds.

Why do you say that?

[Robert Hall]

I don't know who is sitting around the table at these meetings PCS, but I am beginning to think that they must have lost their minds.

I think GM is at the point of trying to figure out how to survive...sometimes you have to amputate a limb to survive. Does a car maker with only 20% (and falling) market share in a non-growing market (NA) really need 8 brands?

Edited June 20, 2008 by moltar

[Camino LS6]

I think GM is at the point of trying to figure out how to survive...sometimes you have to amputate a limb to survive. Does a car maker with only 20% (and falling) market share in a non-growing market (NA) really need 8 brands?

What they need is to stop being reactionaries making decisions through a fog of panic over an artificial crisis of no certain length.

What they need is to toss the failure mentality.

What they need is to quit hedging, delaying, second-guessing, apologizing, and half-assing their way through.

The decisions they are making now will lock them in for an unpleasantly long period of time, setting them up for another missed market shift down the road a few years.

Rash decisions =limited options = missing the market sweet spot again, and again, and again...

Shall I go on?

[wildcat]

if Pontiac is killed

How did they react when you presented your idea about making Pontiac similar to Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) of NA?

[Oracle of Delphi]

How did they react when you presented your idea about making Pontiac similar to Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) of NA?

If your talking about what I posted about saving GMNA the other day, that is just something that has been floating around in my mind for the last 3 months or so, I think I may have posted that HSV thought in one other post Camino had a while back.

As to telling anyone else officially of my HSV idea, it will have to wait until I know more about what's going on brand wise. I just had surgery yesterday, and won't return to Europe until Tuesday of next week.

[Chazman]

Here is something to think about also, if Pontiac is killed, it gives Holden more capacity to build some small cars (I am not talking about Alpha) it is interested in doing. Remember they only have one assembly plant there.

What kind of small cars?

[gm4life]

Honestly I think killing any brand is stupid. Pissing of loyal customers... Trust me I watched many an Aurora get traded on an Avalon not a Lucerne and alot of Alero owners go too Camry's. And I think Pontiac needs at least two SUV/small wagon vehicles, sometimes people like me want a little more sport than in the Chevy. I could have gotten an Equinox cheaper but liked the interior trim, unqiue front end and sportier ride. Also everyone has an Equniox I dared to be different. Plus the Torrent had better wheels than the Equi.

Edited June 20, 2008 by gm4life

[ocnblu]

Pontiac found its way starting with the 1959 WideTrack concept, but it survived up until then with a considerably less exciting image. I won't believe Pontiac has lost its performance image within GM until I see it for myself. With the rise of "corporate" engines at GM, Pontiac hasn't had much unique under the hood since 1981 anyway. It's been about the visual differences since then, for the most part. There is no good reason to kill Pontiac, if they are allowed to keep their visual identity, which is essential.

[z28luvr01]

What kind of small cars?

D_ew_os?

[Oracle of Delphi]

D_ew_os?

Exactly, since they control Daewoo.

[Chazman]

Oh Daewoo.

If we're going to have a domestic Opel brand anyway, I'd rather see Saturn killed and Pontiac become that division.

Pontiac as a brand is gravely damaged, but still has some heritage which could be revived. Saturn OTOH, is and has always been an empty suit.

[longtooth]

"Mad Money Cramer" is waxing thoughtful Re: 'Prepackaged' bankruptcies for GM and Ford. I must say that this is the first time since Rick Wagoner stated (in paraphrase) back in '05; "No one buys cars from a bankrupt car company" that I have even considered the possibility. That is me. I am aware that it's been bandied about for a couple of years, but now, it seems more plausible. Opinions on what that could look like?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Okay...

1) Saturn is safe because we all know that GM runs on politics, not common sense.

2) Nice to see GM abandoning the full size truck market. I guess I, and the many other people that NEED trucks can either eff off or continue to rebuild our old trucks.

3) That Pontiac Astra is Hot with a capital T.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well, the Astra for Pontiac, is rather stupid, Vibe anyone? Both are 5 doors, yeah whatever the Astra has a 3 door model also, but how many of either do you see? Changing Saturn's name, thats so ridiculous, just come out and say "I don't like the name Saturn" and ugh MPV's, your kidding right, no wait Im stupid the Mazda sells Mazda5's like Toyota sells Corollas, we definitely need them, and as for killing a brand 1). didn't the article say potentially, lets not get in a tussle it's not concrete, and 2.) SAAB the company with a rebadged GMT-360 and an 11 year old sedan, has more potentially then ANY of the GM brands, I'm not seeing that, you guys mean the 9-4x? Thats not potential thats GM saying "Oh &#036;h&#33; we own SAAB too".

True that...

And mark my words, GM will introduce all of theses new Saabs and *think* that the market will care when in reality 1) The market as a whole couldn't care less about Saab 2) They're too generic to make much of an impact/statement and 3) GM is too ignorant to know how to market the cars anyway.

Marketing is GMs problem, not "too many divisions" (You know, the 4 it has -- Because lets face it, the new dealer channels pretty much ARE the divisions now. And that equals 1) Chevrolet 2) Saturn 3) P/B/GMC & 4) Cadillac/Hummer/Saab)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I see that aspect. My thoughts on the dealership aspect was to reduce the overlap of dealerships during consolidation. So, GM is mostly through their "combine Pontiac/Buick/GMC into a single store" initiative, now let's say we kill Pontiac as an example and replace it with Saturn. All the existing P-B-G dealers now sell Saturns instead, but what about the former stand-alone Saturn stores? I was making the assumption that there's likely a P-B-G store near most existing Saturn stores, so the current Saturn dealerships will get screwed over -- potentially wanting to sue (a-la Olds) whether Saturn as a brand lives or dies. If there is a high degree of overlap between the ownership of existing Saturn stores vs. P-B-G, then I guess it would be a non-issue.

The dealer cost part of the equation would seem to be a key factor in which brand lives or dies.

If they kill GMC, please suggest they at least give the existing Sierra sheetmetal to Chevy to replace the ugly a@@ Silverado! (Tahoe/Suburban/Avalanche look better than the Yukon/Yukon XL...)

The dealers play a huge role. However, it is my understanding that the Saturn franchises would be extremely hard to close given how they were structured an that alone makes the brand a safe bet NOT to be phased out.

Saturn is, for the most part, useless... We've beaten to death the fact that Pontiac and Buick are damaged, yet no one has mentioned a thing about how Saturn got a complete makeover and has FLOPPED big time in the market. If that is GME's idea of success, then something is wrong and GM is doomed.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Current stand alone stores would stay, unless they wanted to be combined with the other 2 brands to reduce their cost. Where Saturn would be merged with the other two would be where there is no Saturn outlet say more than two hours away. Some customers that want to buy a Saturn can't because the nearest dealership is 12 hours away, this happens a lot out in the Western USA.

That's a lot of ASSUMPTION, that Saturn's sales are in the dumps because people can't buy them.

[enzl]

"Mad Money Cramer" is waxing thoughtful Re: 'Prepackaged' bankruptcies for GM and Ford. I must say that this is the first time since Rick Wagoner stated (in paraphrase) back in '05; "No one buys cars from a bankrupt car company" that I have even considered the possibility. That is me. I am aware that it's been bandied about for a couple of years, but now, it seems more plausible. Opinions on what that could look like?

Bad. It'll look real bad.

The Union will be forced back to the table. The monies not already contributed to VEBA will be in doubt. The publicity will drive sales dramatically lower...oh, and RW, Mullaly and the rest will float comfortably away with their Golden Parachutes.

It'll be Delphi, without a rich patron like GM to help with the bailout. Michigan will see its unemployment rate jump a few points and the politicians will kick and scream and still do nothing.

The only persons to benfit will be the lawyers and CPAs that descend on the carcasses of these once proud companies. As for the workers: ask the US steel workers how their retirements are going.

Its an unmitigated disaster for all except the people in charge of these co.'s today. (And the surviving manufacturers who will be given marketshare on a silver platter.)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

>>"Seems to me that someone is searching for a scapegoat to protect those "wonderful Opels" that don't seem to be saving Saturn after all."<<

Opel had brief success in this country when they first started importing them, which was '58. By the late '60s sales were in the toilet, untill lack of interest killed it dead here. The Cadillac Opel (Catera) sparked nothing, and so far the Saturn Opels have sparked very little. Seems to me the continual, misguided faith in everything foreign won't allow the 'faithful' to open their eyes to the brand's potential in the U.S.... which has repeatedly been meager at best.

Don't forget about the GTO or the saturn L-Series. Both came from GME originally and both were complete failures in the market place.

Apparently GM is too ignorant to get the message the first 10-20 times though.

If GM phases out another division, I will never buy from the company again.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think no haggle is killing Saturn, why would I want to pay the full price of an Outlook when I can go next door and haggle with my GMC dealer for an Acadia.

Speaking of which, my concern is what happens to the Acadia if GMC goes away. Does it go to Chevy, if so what happens to the Traverse? Or does Pontiac get the Acadia, but remember Pontiac is car! I mentioned this in a meeting today.

The Acadia was originally supposed to be a Pontiac, so it'd be a perfect fit. And technically, the Acadia is a car.

So your agenda to kill Pontiac, like most of your posts, is pretty shallow.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

How about the Acadia goes away and goes away for good? Why does it have to go elsewhere? Couldn't the Outlook go just a little more upmarket?

No.

Because even the Borger knows that his precious Saturn brand doesn't have the EQUITY and AWARENESS to sell the Outlook at it's current price point, much less a higher one.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Here is something to think about also, if Pontiac is killed, it gives Holden more capacity to build some small cars (I am not talking about Alpha) it is interested in doing. Remember they only have one assembly plant there.

And why does that matter? The capacity taken up by the Pontiac programs isn't enough to even make a dent in the small car market so your point is irrelevant (except for politics)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think GM is at the point of trying to figure out how to survive...sometimes you have to amputate a limb to survive. Does a car maker with only 20% (and falling) market share in a non-growing market (NA) really need 8 brands?

We already amputated a limb. Did that work?

[Robert Hall]

We already amputated a limb. Did that work?

Well, we grew another that is already dead (HUMMER).

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If your talking about what I posted about saving GMNA the other day, that is just something that has been floating around in my mind for the last 3 months or so, I think I may have posted that HSV thought in one other post Camino had a while back.

As to telling anyone else officially of my HSV idea, it will have to wait until I know more about what's going on brand wise. I just had surgery yesterday, and won't return to Europe until Tuesday of next week.

Or basically, you forgot to mention it on purpose because it doesn't fit in with your agenda of killing Pontiac and making Holden an 'outlet' just like Vauxhall.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Or basically, you forgot to mention it on purpose because it doesn't fit in with your agenda of killing Pontiac and making Holden an 'outlet' just like Vauxhall.

No, actually I had surgery this week and won't be back in Europe until next week.

[SoCalCTS]

Pontiac and Vauxhall should go. There's nothing that Pontiac makes that can't be rebadged a Buick or Chevrolet. Vauxhall should become Opel or Holden. Why should they have to come up with distinct Vauxhall versions for England only?

[Windy-57]

As a brand image, Pontiac has more relevance than GMC (particularly considering gas prices.) GMC can go and nobody will miss it - especially if you spread their budget to Chevy trucks, Pontiac and Buick. What does GMC offer that Chevy doesn't...the Acadia, that's it - and in about 3 months Chevy will have the Traverse.

Pontiac still has a lot of potential to be distinct in the market with the Solstice, G8 and I really liked that chop of the Astra (I've been calling for a GTi-inspired Pontiac for a while now.)

[CSpec]

I don't think looking at past failed GME products is that helpful, because this kind of extreme action would not be discussed if the market has not changed the way it has.

[Blake Noble]

I really liked that chop of the Astra (I've been calling for a GTi-inspired Pontiac for a while now.)

I am glad you enjoyed it. That was something I had chopped up for a competition here a few years ago.

[Windy-57]

I am glad you enjoyed it. That was something I had chopped up for a competition here a few years ago.

Hell yeah, that car with some more differentiation from the Saturn version and the powertrain lineup that the Solstice has would be pretty sweet and would make a huge dent in urban buyers who have left the Big 3 in droves over the last few years.

[ZL-1]

Pontiac and Vauxhall should go. There's nothing that Pontiac makes that can't be rebadged a Buick or Chevrolet. Vauxhall should become Opel or Holden. Why should they have to come up with distinct Vauxhall versions for England only?

Product-wise it's just a badge swap. I don't think it's that costly.

[motownr]

How ironic that GM is once again having to run the numbers on the cost of closing down a brand.

It's not well known, but at the time of Old's demise, GM corporately owned more than 50% of all Saturn franchises.

They had the chance to give these Saturn points to their Olds dealers, and save the cash while increasing the market coverage of Saturn.

What did RW decide to do? Slide the Saturn points to GM's corporate pets (often dealer development types with zero credentials), and leave the Olds dealers to go and buy import stores with GM's cash. Saturn got stuck with limited coverage, GM's worst managers, and some truly marginal dealers.

Here we go again...

It's hard for me to see how GM can further consolidate the brand channel short of outright sales of the brands and not incur massive financial liabilities to the impacted dealers.

[Lamar]

I know this has been bandied about long before I got to this thread today, but...

I say, like many others, sell Saab and HUMMER. Much like Ford sold Jaguar and Land Rover.

None of the other brands, when done right, present much of a problem. Not even Pontiac, which seems to be getting this "affordable-performance" thing down with the expanding Solstice and G8 lines. (BTW, the '09 G8 GT with the 6M stands to make a lot of people happy)

Oh, and...

Did someone say Pontiac Astra?

WIN!

[turbo200]

How ironic that GM is once again having to run the numbers on the cost of closing down a brand.

It's not well known, but at the time of Old's demise, GM corporately owned more than 50% of all Saturn franchises.

They had the chance to give these Saturn points to their Olds dealers, and save the cash while increasing the market coverage of Saturn.

What did RW decide to do? Slide the Saturn points to GM's corporate pets (often dealer development types with zero credentials), and leave the Olds dealers to go and buy import stores with GM's cash. Saturn got stuck with limited coverage, GM's worst managers, and some truly marginal dealers.

Here we go again...

It's hard for me to see how GM can further consolidate the brand channel short of outright sales of the brands and not incur massive financial liabilities to the impacted dealers.

That is a huge example of stupidity; one of Saturn's bigger problems is limited exposure and dealer network. It's hard to expect a brand to do well when many don't even know where to find or if it exists, or care that it exists.

OTOH, many do know Saturn exists. Identity, corporate, or brand-wise is covered by two things: actual product and the image you use to sell that product. For many years Saturn have been the friendly car company, thier cars were quirky, different and at worst downright silly. thier was an interest for a time to see where the brand could go, and certainly the method of selling the cars seemed appealing at the time when people were just understanding the car sales process, but now times have changed, people are informed, and they enter a dealer with a command of product and cost knowledge, they want to make a deal, they understand the basic rule of always saying no to the dealer, in many cases anyways. the time passed for Saturn to take advantage of public goodwill, and then Saturn became Ion and L-series, silly cars with silly faces, where the execution severly damaged the brand in people's eyes. if this was all they were going to become you can cross them off the list, they aren't engaged in the real competition enough. those silly faces became instinctive identifiers, somehting BMW, MB get to the core, and GM unlike it's domestic partner Ford has yet to figure out. The faces are what people remember, and that face of the Ion and L-series became a quick reference point for a quacked out brand.

Now Saturn has a face that is not altogether memorable or distinctive. Their face has appeared elsewhere, derivations of it. the face launches the idea of what a brand is in people's minds. while attractive, the new face of Saturn does not instantly set them apart, like say Nissan's did in 2002, which helped re-establish that brand, at a time when this kind of reaction is really necessary since GM is relaunching the brand.

Now Saturn's positioning within GM is dubious at best. Where are they taking it? Is it supposed to compete with Acura/VW/Volvo? Well, the current pricing doesn't reflect that, and GM doesn't seem eager to market that image on thier most premium car, the premium compact Astra, with its slight premium price increase over other compacts. If it is supposed to be premium, where does that leave Pontiac and Buick, the supposed premium brands. If it's supposed to be mainstream, which is what the pricing reflects now [and yet product is faltering with affordable mainstream pricing], why the hell is it there? You have Chevrolet which is an all encompassing, incredibly exposed, well respected brand, and also might I mention seems to have a very easy time of making cars hits all due to its massive exposure, consumer familiarity, and available dealer network.

So what is Saturn? And will product like Insignia and the new Astra be able to command a premium price increase underneath the Saturn label? It's already dubious anyone sees Saturn as a premium label.

I will inject some phenomonal Pontiac bias here, Ponitac otoh, seems to have no problem selling those above $30k G8s, in terrible consumer climates, in conquest markets like my own, and with no product/advertising exposure.

My bottom line, I don't know if Saturn should go because of the dealer costs and what not. However, this is a very tricky pickle that GM has gotten themselves into. It'd be a lot easier to turn Saturn into a boutique Scion-esque brand, that wouldn't require as much effort as turning them into a full line brand and attracting the kinds of people [read: conservative older folks] that look into those kinds of brands.

Edited June 21, 2008 by turbo200

[turbo200]

one more thing: I don't know that I buy into the notion that Saturn doesn't or hasn't gotten enough advertising. they were adequate in thier rotation last year bud admittedly this year have died down drastically. as with GM as usual, the presentation sucked. The image of what Saturn was becoming was what exactly? And where's the focused advertising on the engineering and product features of each model? why the heck should I trust a Saturn is safe enough, reliable enough. Oh ya I learned from Edmunds it's a GM, so that's a good thing, but I only learned that because I became potentially interested only after two of my friends remarked on how wonderful thier Aura was, and they only got the Aura because they had previously owned Saturns. otherwise I would have NO interest, I mean your commercials and message don't engage me at all. especially compared to the other brands and the legacy they have....

Edited June 21, 2008 by turbo200

[Blake Noble]

Hell yeah, that car with some more differentiation from the Saturn version and the powertrain lineup that the Solstice has would be pretty sweet and would make a huge dent in urban buyers who have left the Big 3 in droves over the last few years.

I think that the concept for a "Pontiac Astra" (or should that be "Astre?") should be similar to the new Lancer Ralliart, but with various levels of equipment and all-wheel drive standard on all models and a sticker starting under 17 grand.

[Blake Noble]

Oh, and...

WIN!

Thanks.

And it is Holden-based as well.