GM may kill another brand , did anybody say Pontiac? Also delays GMT 900 replacements.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

General Motors Corp is delaying the redesign of SUV's and full size trucks as part of a wholesale review of its product and brand portfolio geared toward building lighter , fuel-efficient vehicles.

General Motors is looking at the whole product profolio,'' spokesman Tom Wilkinson said late Wensday.

In the meantime, he said the automaker will extend the life cycle of its current linup of pickups and SUV's. Those vehicles know as the GMT900 lineup. The next generation of trucks and SUV's weren't slated to hit the market until at least 2012,.

People briefed on the matter say the automaker also has discussed killing off at least one future Hummer SUV product , and potentially axing another brand

Full article here.

Edited June 19, 2008 by Toyota.vs.GM

[!!!TED!!!]

Shocking, but I was expecting this move.

No future product is safe at this point, no matter how much work has gone into it.

[longtooth]

Shocking, but I was expecting this move.

No future product is safe at this point, no matter how much work has gone into it.

If so, market share for the US winds up looking like the map of Europe where no one's got more than 15 or 20%. Certainly more competitive now sans the 'truck' factor. And more compelling.

[michaelv13]

Saturn or Saab Please Thank You!

[91z4me]

Given the slump in truck sales, strong future CAFE requirements, and the complete redundancy of GMC I would say it is at the top of the list.

[loki]

"future hummer product".... H2 replacement? the H4 should prolly still make it.don't know about the h3t

anyone think the 2.0l turbo could work in the H3 (replace the 3.7)? or would that be too much load on it, too much stress?

killing a brand would hurt GM alot when the economy turns around....assuming it will, with in a few years.

[CSpec]

Given the slump in truck sales, strong future CAFE requirements, and the complete redundancy of GMC I would say it is at the top of the list.

I agree. GMC is quickly becoming an anachronism, maybe even worse than Mercury is to Ford.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Yup. GMC should be ripe to go. Saab I'd say is safe for now because they do a lot of R&D for GM and GME in particular. Saturn... Seems they want to tinker with it some more but in my Opinion it should go because it won't work. I think they should shutter Saturn and just bring in Opel (and call it Opel for that matter). Pontiac... I'm sorry to say might be on its way out considering the lack of announced product in the pipeline. Buick... Safe because of China and all the new product coming. Cadillac... Safe. Chevy... Safe.

[longtooth]

I agree. GMC is quickly becoming an anachronism, maybe even worse than Mercury is to Ford.

Still there'll be a need to 'Denali-ize' something. Those packages are just too decadent. Prefer those treatments over the Cadillac version.

[buickguy]

It could be Saturn or GMC?

[daves87rs]

Sell Hummer, Kill GMC, and get rid of the Tahoe and TB NOW.

GMC does have quite a bit of history too...but even if things change, the truck market will never be the same again...

The car brands are more worth saving at this point...even Pontiac and Saturn....

[daves87rs]

Still there'll be a need to 'Denali-ize' something. Those packages are just too decadent. Prefer those treatments over the Cadillac version.

Actually, no. I don't think people are ever going to pay that much for a truck again, unless maybe it is a Caddy....

My local dealership has 2 LTZ Silverados that have been sitting there for a long time....

[Sal Collaziano]

There's too much overlap at GM. They NEED to kill brands. At least one. Pontiac is the obvious choice. Sure, there will be lots of crybabying - but what can you do? Buick needs to stick around because it's doing too well in China to forget about AND the new products are very promising... AND they're "being" exactly what they're supposed to be. Traditional luxury vehicles like Cadillacs used to be. There will ALWAYS be a market for vehicles that OLD people like. OLD people aren't going anywhere. There are more people BECOMING OLD than are dying (as people live longer and longer). Just look at the success of Lexus.

Chevrolet? Of course Chevy isn't going anywhere. They can build Pontiacs just as good as Pontiac.

Cadillac? They build second rate luxury sports vehicles (besides the CTS, which is first rate). The best built vehicles in America. So they're here to stay.

Saab? Believe it or not, they're starting to come around here in the U.S. At least here in South Florida they are. Everybody is buying Saabs around here - especially young people. Here's your import killer brand. Use it.

Saturn? Even with nice products, I still don't see anybody buying Saturns.

Axe Saturn and Pontiac and use what worked at Chevrolet. The Oldsmobile Aurora absolutely should have moved into another brand under a new name. It was very stupid to entirely get rid of that car. Buick really could have used it. It was FAR better than the Park Avenue. So a nice rebadged Aurora to "Park Avenue" would have sold like crazy.

HUMMER? Drop that crappy brand and build a GMC Hummer.

GMC? I don't know. Make them a sub-division of Chevrolet and scrap the overlap.

The Pontiac G8, the only Pontiac worth talking about, would do just fine as a Chevy.

Edited June 19, 2008 by Sal Collaziano

[Camino LS6]

I see "panic mode" has been initiated.

[Intrepidation]

How can you scrap the Overlap between GMC and Chevy? Everything GMC sells are rebadged Chevies. i would rebadge the Sierra as a Silverado though...looks much nicer.

GMC and Hummer should be up on th list. Pontiac may in limbo because they don't know what to do with it, but they sell cars, and that's what people want now...not trucks.

[GMTruckGuy74]

I see "panic mode" has been initiated.

BOY ain't that the truth! It's always poor GMC that gets named as the brand to cut. Why not Chevy trucks? GMCs could pickup those sales and it would give Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealerships a boost in sales. Of course we can't think of good ol' Chevy losing it's trucks, now can we? Funny thing, just a couple of months ago GMC was the one brand that was bringing in the dough for GM. How quickly those who don't favor trucks here forget that little tidbit of knowledge. :AH-HA_wink:

GM trucks as a whole are going to be cut back while gas prices continue to surge. That doesn't mean that the person who absolutely needs a truck for towing or work purposes is going to go out and buy a compact car to tow his heavy duty trailer with, now does it? No, that buyer will still need a real truck and his needs will still need to be met. Those that have purchased a pickup or SUV for primarily family hauling are going to no longer consider a truck, and that fad for the last decade & a half is finally coming to a close. Of course trucks/SUVs being the cash cow for GM, now we get to watch how GM continues to survive without those sales dollars.

In reality, GM will be looking at the dealer body that will be the easist to close. We all know that this is the biggest hurdle to face when closing a brand (remember Oldsmobile anyone?). Saab has the fewest dealers in the US, probably followed closely by Saturn. Saturn's sales & service records will aid in keeping them on the other side of the chopping block, maybe. Pontiac sales are not hot, nor are Buick - but as mentioned a zillion times already, Buick sales in China will keep that brand alive. So maybe it would be easy just to kill one brand without closing a whole dealership. Could we be seeing the Buick-GMC sales channel on the horizon?

[Robert Hall]

It will be interesting to see what the full year sales for the GMT 900s will be next year compared to 2007. Down by 50%?

[Brougham-Holiday]

Were going to see that sale of Hummer, I don't think GM will close another established car brand as the bad press/ hard feelings from owners about Oldsmobile a few years ago has taught them a lesson. I think GMC should be cut back to industrial products and allow Buick/Chevrolet to offer the full size or not quite Cadillac SUV models.

[cire]

I still think they should sell Saab/Hummer and combine Buick with Cadillac to form a luxury dealer network (Buick focused on FWD luxury cars and FWD/AWD luxury crossovers; Cadillac focused on RWD luxury cars). I would then convert Saturn into Opel and combine it with Pontiac/GMC to form a midmarket, import focused dealer network. Opel would sell FWD cars and MPVs, Pontiac would sell RWD cars, and GMC would sell FWD/AWD crossovers. Chevrolet would continue as the affordable, mainstream volume division with a wide array of products including FWD cars, FWD/AWD crossovers, trucks/SUVs (Chevy could handle this shrinking segment on their own), and the RWD Camaro & Corvette. Opel, Pontiac, GMC, Buick, and Cadillac would all have smaller, focused niche portfolios.

CHEVROLET:

* Beat: 3-door city car.

* Aveo: Subcompact 3-door/5-door/sedan on Gamma II.

* Monza: Compact sedan/coupe/5-door on Delta II.

* Volt: Plug in hybrid on Delta II.

* Malibu: Midsize sedan on LWB Epsilon II.

* Impala: Large sedan on extended LWB Epsilon II.

* Camaro: Sports coupe/convertible on SWB SigZeta.

* Corvette: Flagship coupe/convertible on C7 platform.

* Captiva: Compact crossover on SWB Theta II.

* Equinox: Midsize crossover on LWB Theta II.

* Traverse: Large crossover on Lambda.

* Colorado: Compact pickup truck.

* Tracker: Compact SUV. Based on Colorado platform, this would be a 5-door Wrangler competitor.

* Silverado: Fullsize pickup truck.

* Tahoe/Suburban: Fullsize SUVs.

OPEL:

* Agila: 5-door city car.

* Corsa: Subcompact 3-door/5-door/"TwinTop" roadster on Gamma II.

* Astra: Compact 3-door/5-door/wagon/"TwinTop" coupe on Delta II.

* Insignia: Midsize sedan/wagon/"TwinTop" coupe on SWB Epsilon II.

* Meriva: Subcompact MPV on Gamma II.

* Zafira: Compact MPV on Delta II. I think the Flextreme Concept was an actual preview of the next generation Zafira.

PONTIAC:

* Solstice: Roadster on 2-seat coupe on modified Alpha.

* Fiero: Subcompact 3-door/5-door on modified Alpha.

* LeMans: Compact sedan/coupe on Alpha.

* Grand Prix: Midsize sedan/coupe on SWB SigZeta.

* Bonneville: Large sedan on LWB SigZeta.

GMC:

* Envoy: Compact crossover on SWB Theta II.

* Terrain: Midsize crossover on LWB Theta II.

* Acadia: Large crossover on Lambda.

BUICK:

* Regal: Compact sedan on SWB Epsilon II.

* Invicta: Midsize sedan on LWB Epsilon II.

* LeSabre: Large sedan on extended LWB Epsilon II.

* Rendezvous: Compact crossover on SWB Theta II.

* Centieme: Midsize crossover on LWB Theta II.

* Enclave: Large crossover on Lambda.

CADILLAC:

* B-Series: Compact sedan/coupe/wagon on Alpha.

* C-Series: Midsize sedan/coupe/wagon on SWB SigZeta.

* S-Series: Large sedan on LWB SigZeta.

* XLC(?): Small retractable hardtop luxury roadster on modified Alpha.

* XLR: Flagship retractable hardtop luxury roadster on C7 Corvette platform.

This setup would allow less overlap and proper distribution of platform mates. It would also give each division a more distinct identity as well as allow GM to cover the entire market without needing to eliminate any of their core brands.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Were going to see that sale of Hummer, I don't think GM will close another established car brand as the bad press/ hard feelings from owners about Oldsmobile a few years ago has taught them a lesson. I think GMC should be cut back to industrial products and allow Buick/Chevrolet to offer the full size or not quite Cadillac SUV models.

Hummer is already gone, you just don't know that yet. My understanding is that another brand is on the chopping block. There are four possibilities, two of which I am told have Saviors, so they won't be cut.

1. GMC

2. Pontiac

3. Saab (Savior)

4. Buick (Savior)

I would argue in defense of GMC being kept instead of Chevy Trucks since a GMC truck could be sold at any GM dealership, but Chevy is the world brand so it will not be cut.

I also hear GMC would be the easiest to replace, since it's only a badge replacement, however Pontiac has already lost it's Performance designation within GM and is running a close second to be given the axe. Meetings took place about this yesterday and will continue.

Whichever one leaves BPC, there would now be room to merge Saturn in with that group, since all three report to the same person in the higher scheme of things at GM.

Just remember things are changing daily at GM so any of this could change at a moments notice. It's crazy at times!

[!!!TED!!!]

Just remember things are changing daily at GM so any of this could change at a moments notice. It's crazy at times!

Crazy and scary!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Given the slump in truck sales, strong future CAFE requirements, and the complete redundancy of GMC I would say it is at the top of the list.

Guess again...

GMC requires minimal investment yet sells a lot of vehicles and makes A LOT of money.

GM would be ignorant to close any of it's divisions. And if any have to go, it needs to be 1) Saab, since it's utterly f*cking useless and 2) Hummer since GM is too stupid and short sighted to see the equity in that brand.

So Saab, the black pit of GM, has a savior huh? Funny, I thought GM was a BUSINESS that is supposed to make money, not a boys club that does each other favors.

Edited June 19, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[regfootball]

sell saab and hummer.

[gm4life]

If Pontiac goes I might not ever be able to forgive them. With products like a Solstice and G8 it will be hard to axe then. Honestly in the current truck market Hummer and GMC seem like the obvious options to go. Get rid of Hummer and GMC first. I don't think GM should get rid of any brand it is hard enough to get customers not that you want to take away from you offer so people have less choices. Pontiac is a strong selling compared to Buick. I would axe Buick before I would axe Pontiac. I think Pontiac and GMC are each safe. I am concerned about Hummer, if they axe Pontiac I might have to buy Honda.

[MyerShift]

Saturn to me has the least relevance as a brand. Since it is now Opel anyway, get rid of the name, change it to Opel. Sales couldn't possibly be any worse than they are now with the cars badged as Saturns.

Without proper rear drive product, Pontiac is essentially useless.

SAAB is a great centre for research and development especially in the fields of safety and turbocharging engines. They are perhaps a bit more noted in Europe than here, but GM would be foolish to kill SAAB. It would be better to sell it for the potential profit.

Buick has fantastic upcoming product even sans rear drive, and that's where Cadillac would come in above it; plus the Chinese market and desirability of Buicks there helps keep it safe.

Any sort of truck rebadge could be redundant. Fewer truck models, better CAFE, right? As gas prices rise, all the wannabes will be ditching their truck based vehicles as they realize they don't need them and can't afford them. Most people that drive SUV's should be driving minivans anyway. Oh wait. GM doesn't have any. OK, instead of minivans, let's just get them into slightly more fuel efficient station wagons on stilts that are ridiculously called "Crossovers". Bah!

[cire]

I think Saturn's problem is that the conversion to an Opel inspired lineup has been a misguided, partially executed effort. The products and marketing haven't been executed in a way as to suggest to the public that Saturn has been repositioned to be an upscale, Euro inspired niche division. It appears as though GM has positioned Saturn to straddle the line between a mainstream division and premium Euro division and has failed to effectively portray the division's new purpose or give it a distinctive brand image.

There have been reports that GM of Europe intends to take Opel further upmarket by offering products that are built and equipped to convey to the public that the division is a distributor of true premium car products. I think GM should apply the same strategy to Saturn here in the U.S. First step would be to slowly convert the division name to Opel with the introduction of the Insignia in the U.S. (yes, it should be called "Insignia"; let's finally get the division completely aligned on both sides of the Atlantic). Saturn is saddled with a somewhat dorky "cheap & cheerful" car image and the post revitalization advertising/marketing has done essentially nothing to change that image. I think the brand needs to be rechristened as "Opel" and given a true Euro chic image to give it a fighting chance to transcend Saturn's humble, geeky origins and establish a distinctive position for Opel in the U.S. market.

I would also refine the lineup. With gas prices continuing to rise, I think the newly christened Opel's focus should be on premium FWD cars and MPVs. The Vue and Outlook should be discontinued when their current model cycles are over (midmarket FWD/AWD crossovers should be offered by GMC). The next generation Sky should be refashioned into a luxury retractable hardtop roadster for Cadillac and the next generation Solstice should be stylistically aligned with the global version sold in foreign markets by Opel/Vauxhall/Holden/Daewoo. This would open Opel up to expand the variations of its car products (3-door, 5-door, sedan, wagon, "TwinTop" roadster/coupe) as well as offer Euro inspired MPVs (if the recent Meriva Concept or Flextreme Concept are indications of the stylistic direction of the next generation MPVs, then this could be quite a lucrative situation for Opel). This refinement of the lineup would go further to establish a proper Euro chic inspired image for the newly christened Opel in the U.S.

Edited June 20, 2008 by cire

[balthazar]

How is renaming Saturn as 'Opel' getting rid of a brand ??? Everything stays the same except the sign on the dealership changes. Ooooo.

GMC has the lowest overhead and the highest profit- can't see dumping that accomplishing anything helpful whatsoever.

Saab is a perennial money loser and has the smallest dealer base- strong candidate there, IMO (I can't understand anyone being a 'savior' for saab- to what legitimate end? Burn more money for a few more decades?).

Hummer's time is over, unless the overhead is low enough to allow a limited niche brand, joined-up with another dealer group. Is land rover potentially folding too (pricey, look-@-me SUVs)?

Pontiac, as a car-centric division, has far more potential than Hummer and certainly than saab.

I never got the china = Buick safe theory when there is zero overlap from china >< U.S.... but OK.

[REDO1GPGT]

It really is hard to watch your favorite car company (GM) on a continuous decline for all these years with no end in sight....

Whichever brand they chose to kill, it's not like GM needs those sales anyways, I mean GM's market share has been declining every year for what 25 years now? The lost buyers can just flock to the imports like they did when Olds was phased out.

Edited June 19, 2008 by REDO1GPGT

[Cremazie]

I think Saturn is a joke right now, it has no history and the only thing it had going for it (polymer panels) is gone. Give the Astra to Pontiac, re-do the G6, keep the Solstice and keep the G8. Just like that we can save Pontiac. I can't see how pontiac costs any money being coupled with buick and GMC. In all reality though, axing a brand will just cost sales.

[Camino LS6]

Grrrrr.

Panic mode confirmed.

[BigPontiac]

Disappointing that GMC and Pontiac are on the block considering how much money has been wasted on Saturn, Saab and Hummer. All those Opel products could just as easily be rebadged at Pontiacs with minimal effort and cost...and be sold/serviced through a larger dealer network...

I'd also think that Saturn and Saab would have fewer retail outlets if the goal was to kill a brand, thereby reducing the payouts required from the inevitable dealer lawsuits.

[Oracle of Delphi]

GM could move SUVs to smaller platforms

Jamie LaReau

and Craig Trudell

Automotive News

June 19, 2008

DETROIT -- General Motors is evaluating future platforms and life cycles for its full-sized trucks and SUVs, sources have told Automotive News.

The full-sized SUVs are currently built on the GMT900 architecture. But those familiar with GM's plans say it's likely that at some point those vehicles will be shifted to smaller and lighter architectures, most likely a form of the Lambda platform.

In its June 9 issue, Automotive News reported that GM would move its Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon SUVs to a more fuel-efficient platform. The vehicles will eventually "fade away" in their current form, a GM source told the publication.

GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said today that the carmaker was looking at the GMT900 portfolio and how if fit within efforts to supply the U.S. market with more fuel-efficient cars.

GM plans to extend the life cycle of its entire lineup of pickup trucks and SUVs. The lineup includes the Chevrolet Silverado, Tahoe, Suburban and Avalanche; the GMC Sierra; and the Cadillac Escalade.

New designs of GM trucks and SUVs had not been expected to be released until at least 2012. That program has been postponed indefinitely until GM better understands the future of the market for full-sized trucks.

Wilkinson said he suspects that process should be complete within the next six months. By then, GM will have decided how long the program will be postponed.

The delay does not mean GM is abandoning the market segment, Wilkinson said.

"We're not giving up on the full-size truck market," he said. "We have every intention of leading it in the future, even if it's a smaller-sized market than it is today."

The redesigned Ford F series and Dodge Ram pickup trucks launch later this year. GM can remain competitive without a complete redesign in the near future, Wilkinson said. That doesn't mean GM won't make "major changes" to improve fuel efficiency on its full-sized trucks and SUVs.

"We've got the most fuel-efficient vehicles in the segment, and we don't intend on giving that up to anybody," Wilkinson said.

GM also has considered canceling one future Hummer SUV product and shutting down another brand, The Wall Street Journal reported today, citing people briefed on the automaker's strategy.

Wilkinson said GM would not confirm the report, saying only that the automaker is "continuing to look at all options for the Hummer brand."

GM hit a historic low of $14.51 per share today before rallying slightly. At 1:47 p.m. EDT, GM shares were trading at $14.53, down 2.42 percent or 36 cents per share.

Link: http://www.autonews.com/article/20080619/A...439221/1176/OEM

[Blake Noble]

Give the Astra to Pontiac ...

Did someone say Pontiac Astra?

[turbo200]

Saturn and GMC....have the least distinct role and most redundancy......Saturn = Euro? What does that mean? to the average consumer? european style is something all the brands have and are adopting, witness Malibu, Invicta, new Chevy Cobalt, etc......so what's the difference between a Euro Malibu and Euro Aura? With Pontiac you have the pretense of aggression and performance, and the brand historically is known for this. It's cemented. Saturn's image is not. Malibu has proven, along with others, you design the right product, and people will be convinced of its worthiness, regardless of branding. GMC otoh is also pure rebadges, and with our market potentially undergoing drastic change in the future [welcome urban city car, Chevy Groove's for everyone], it's future to me seems questionable and at worst an anchor holding the rest back. I can't think of one single product GMC could do that the other brands couldn't. It was justifiable for it to exist in the past when profit margins were heavy and truck platforms were plentiful, but Yukon really is a lynchpin for GMC.

[ocnblu]

Sell Hummer. Shut down Saturn, sell SAAB. GME platforms can still be sold here successfully, under Pontiac sheetmetal. Edited June 20, 2008 by ocnblu

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'd also think that Saturn and Saab would have fewer retail outlets if the goal was to kill a brand, thereby reducing the payouts required from the inevitable dealer lawsuits.

Not really BP, it would be cheaper to shut down GMC or Pontiac, because GM would not have to shut down the dealerships because 2 out of the 3 brands would still be sold there. Talk is Saturn would be moved into that outlet to increase it's dealership reach.

[wildcat]

But if Saturn sales have declined, even with a completely new line-up, why not shut down Saturn, then give the Opel product to Pontiac? It solves having a role for Pontiac to play, since, as you say, it's been stripped of its performance image within GM.

[Intrepidation]

Hummer is already gone, you just don't know that yet. My understanding is that another brand is on the chopping block. There are four possibilities, two of which I am told have Saviors, so they won't be cut.

1. GMC

2. Pontiac

3. Saab (Savior)

4. Buick (Savior)

I would argue in defense of GMC being kept instead of Chevy Trucks since a GMC truck could be sold at any GM dealership, but Chevy is the world brand so it will not be cut.

I also hear GMC would be the easiest to replace, since it's only a badge replacement, however Pontiac has already lost it's Performance designation within GM and is running a close second to be given the axe. Meetings took place about this yesterday and will continue.

Whichever one leaves BPC, there would now be room to merge Saturn in with that group, since all three report to the same person in the higher scheme of things at GM.

Just remember things are changing daily at GM so any of this could change at a moments notice. It's crazy at times!

What this boils down to is that Saturn will loose the very last shred of uniqueness it has left, it's dealer network. All you have to do to think which brand should go is think of this: cars > trucks. Who has cars? Pontiac. Who has trucks? GMC. Who has no unique product at all? GMC.

Honestly, I think it's a good time to be a Ford fan. They seem to have a much better idea of what they are doing.

[wildcat]

it would be cheaper to shut down GMC or Pontiac

I know that you stated things are volatile, but has there been any discussion of shutting down both GMC and Pontiac?

[Oracle of Delphi]

I know that you stated things are volatile, but has there been any discussion of shutting down both GMC and Pontiac?

I will only repeat what Rick Wagoner said, all options are on the table.

[2chevs]

Well, the Astra for Pontiac, is rather stupid, Vibe anyone? Both are 5 doors, yeah whatever the Astra has a 3 door model also, but how many of either do you see? Changing Saturn's name, thats so ridiculous, just come out and say "I don't like the name Saturn" and ugh MPV's, your kidding right, no wait Im stupid the Mazda sells Mazda5's like Toyota sells Corollas, we definitely need them, and as for killing a brand 1). didn't the article say potentially, lets not get in a tussle it's not concrete, and 2.) SAAB the company with a rebadged GMT-360 and an 11 year old sedan, has more potentially then ANY of the GM brands, I'm not seeing that, you guys mean the 9-4x? Thats not potential thats GM saying "Oh &#036;h&#33; we own SAAB too".

[Camino LS6]

Not really BP, it would be cheaper to shut down GMC or Pontiac, because GM would not have to shut down the dealerships because 2 out of the 3 brands would still be sold there. Talk is Saturn would be moved into that outlet to increase it's dealership reach.

That idea is stupid beyond belief.

GM's cause of death?

An irrational need to dump money into Saturn.

[Sixty8panther]

Wow... the sky sure is falling according to most here.

If Pontiac is hurt by this in any way than GM should

be up for the darwin awards in a few years.

Cut SAAB, Saturn or Hummer IF you have to cut a

brand... they're all useless in the current market.

(as in all or their names/histories have little value

and their entire product line can be shifted/cut)

Edited June 20, 2008 by Sixty8panther

[BigPontiac]

Not really BP, it would be cheaper to shut down GMC or Pontiac, because GM would not have to shut down the dealerships because 2 out of the 3 brands would still be sold there. Talk is Saturn would be moved into that outlet to increase it's dealership reach.

I see that aspect. My thoughts on the dealership aspect was to reduce the overlap of dealerships during consolidation. So, GM is mostly through their "combine Pontiac/Buick/GMC into a single store" initiative, now let's say we kill Pontiac as an example and replace it with Saturn. All the existing P-B-G dealers now sell Saturns instead, but what about the former stand-alone Saturn stores? I was making the assumption that there's likely a P-B-G store near most existing Saturn stores, so the current Saturn dealerships will get screwed over -- potentially wanting to sue (a-la Olds) whether Saturn as a brand lives or dies. If there is a high degree of overlap between the ownership of existing Saturn stores vs. P-B-G, then I guess it would be a non-issue.

The dealer cost part of the equation would seem to be a key factor in which brand lives or dies.

If they kill GMC, please suggest they at least give the existing Sierra sheetmetal to Chevy to replace the ugly a@@ Silverado! (Tahoe/Suburban/Avalanche look better than the Yukon/Yukon XL...)

[Camino LS6]

I see that aspect. My thoughts on the dealership aspect was to reduce the overlap of dealerships during consolidation. So, GM is mostly through their "combine Pontiac/Buick/GMC into a single store" initiative, now let's say we kill Pontiac as an example and replace it with Saturn. All the existing P-B-G dealers now sell Saturns instead, but what about the former stand-alone Saturn stores? I was making the assumption that there's likely a P-B-G store near most existing Saturn stores, so the current Saturn dealerships will get screwed over -- potentially wanting to sue (a-la Olds) whether Saturn as a brand lives or dies. If there is a high degree of overlap between the ownership of existing Saturn stores vs. P-B-G, then I guess it would be a non-issue.

The dealer cost part of the equation would seem to be a key factor in which brand lives or dies.

If they kill GMC, please suggest they at least give the existing Sierra sheetmetal to Chevy to replace the ugly a@@ Silverado! (Tahoe/Suburban/Avalanche look better than the Yukon/Yukon XL...)

[Oracle of Delphi]

I see that aspect. My thoughts on the dealership aspect was to reduce the overlap of dealerships during consolidation. So, GM is mostly through their "combine Pontiac/Buick/GMC into a single store" initiative, now let's say we kill Pontiac as an example and replace it with Saturn. All the existing P-B-G dealers now sell Saturns instead, but what about the former stand-alone Saturn stores? I was making the assumption that there's likely a P-B-G store near most existing Saturn stores, so the current Saturn dealerships will get screwed over -- potentially wanting to sue (a-la Olds) whether Saturn as a brand lives or dies. If there is a high degree of overlap between the ownership of existing Saturn stores vs. P-B-G, then I guess it would be a non-issue.

The dealer cost part of the equation would seem to be a key factor in which brand lives or dies.

If they kill GMC, please suggest they at least give the existing Sierra sheetmetal to Chevy to replace the ugly a@@ Silverado! (Tahoe/Suburban/Avalanche look better than the Yukon/Yukon XL...)

Current stand alone stores would stay, unless they wanted to be combined with the other 2 brands to reduce their cost. Where Saturn would be merged with the other two would be where there is no Saturn outlet say more than two hours away. Some customers that want to buy a Saturn can't because the nearest dealership is 12 hours away, this happens a lot out in the Western USA.

[Camino LS6]

Current stand alone stores would stay, unless they wanted to be combined with the other 2 brands to reduce their cost. Where Saturn would be merged with the other two would be where there is no Saturn outlet say more than two hours away. Some customers that want to buy a Saturn can't because the nearest dealership is 12 hours away, this happens a lot out in the Western USA.

Huge gamble on a brand that has never delivered.

[Blake Noble]

Well, the Astra for Pontiac, is rather stupid, Vibe anyone?

With a gun to my head, and only five minutes to make a decision, I would go with the Astra over the Vibe, no contest.

Doesn't mean I would ever buy one, no matter which name it is sold under, and no matter how much I like the appearance of Opel/Saturn products.

[BigPontiac]

Current stand alone stores would stay, unless they wanted to be combined with the other 2 brands to reduce their cost. Where Saturn would be merged with the other two would be where there is no Saturn outlet say more than two hours away. Some customers that want to buy a Saturn can't because the nearest dealership is 12 hours away, this happens a lot out in the Western USA.

Fair enough. I guess I'm used to the New England presence of Saturn, I can get to 5 Saturn dealers within a 20min radius of my house. Most are either next to a P-B-G Dealership and under the same ownership, or there is a P-B-G Dealer within a mile of the Saturn store.

So, assuming the P-B-G moves to selling Saturns, what happens to the "no haggle" shopping experience? Does it get applied to Buick and GMC too, or does it get eliminated at Saturn? Or does Saturn keep it, but Buick's and GMC's don't?

[z28luvr01]

All right, so it appears someone at GM is fastening a white flag to a long wooden pole. So Hummer's gone, probably to Tata, and another brand is going to the slaughter. My thoughts, for what they're worth:

Buick: Killing Buick in the US would effectively kill it in China as well - any prestige Buick has as an "import" would go down the toilet if it doesn't exist in its home market. Plus, the Buick China and Buick NA lineups will be very similar.

Pontiac: Obviously I don't want to see it go, but if "get your G8 while you can" turns out to be true and Pontiac's long-term future consists solely of rebadged Chevies, just pull the plug and get it over with. IMO, 'tis better to be shot than to be starved to death.

Saturn: GM's most expensive mistake that could turn out to be its undoing. Still, killing Saturn as it stands now would be a bad move, as the dealership network would revolt. If someone from B-P-G dies and GM offers incentives for Saturn dealers to join the channel, I could see that as an avenue for Saturn's eventual death.

Saab: I could see Saab pull out of the US market, but I think they will remain in the GM fold so that GM can keep their expertise in developing small high power turbocharged engines.

GMC: On one hand, it's a truck-only brand so it's got a huge bullseye on its head. On the other hand, every GMC sold is almost pure profit thanks to minimal investment over its Chevy counterparts.