Desperate Times

[longtooth]

The article written by Jerry Flint spreads the blame around for the dreadful pickle the Domestic Automobile Manufacturers are facing. There is more than enough to go around. Blame that is, not pickles.

The Link: http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2008/063...artner=yahoomag

[CSpec]

This guy is still alive?

[daves87rs]

This guy is still alive?

I guess so....

[CARBIZ]

Clearly, he has no idea what he is talking about. Britain has a thriving car industry...employs thousands of people! Vauxhall is a British company, not American.

Couldn't have written the article better myself. Japan seems to have no troubles spending millions for 'Toyota's' Synergy drive system, so why shouldn't Washington pitch in for Ford and GM to come up with a fuel cell?

notgonnahappen.com

[gmcbob]

I wanted to post this article too and see what everybody's take was on it. Actually, I think old Jerry was having a bad day. I think he's dead on for the most part, but I don't think we're going to see the complete and utter death of the domestic auto manufacturers in three years. Well, Chrysler might be owned by a foreign company, but not Ford or GM. It seems to me that GM and Ford are at least really trying to do what they need to do - and we all know that both of them are going to be coming out with a lot of new, fuel efficient cars that should at the very least help them have some cash flow for the next few years. One of the things that really doesn't get pointed out in a positive light from a lot of the mainstream analysts is how much GM and Ford have started or will start utilizing their European operations more and more over here in NA. That's going to help out a lot, because they're actually doing pretty well in Europe (and methinks it has something to do with the fact that their cars are good over there).

One thing that will indeed happen is the continued loss of market share - that's something that will probably be very sobering to a lot of GM and Ford fans. But, I think the cars will be good, and they'll sell enough to stay alive - but I think their presence will be a lot smaller.

I dunno, my guess is as good as any one else on this board, but I think Jerry is doing a little bit of exaggeration on this one.

[Camino LS6]

Wow!

That's a first, I agree with the old coot.

[longtooth]

I wanted to post this article too and see what everybody's take was on it. Actually, I think old Jerry was having a bad day. I think he's dead on for the most part, but I don't think we're going to see the complete and utter death of the domestic auto manufacturers in three years. Well, Chrysler might be owned by a foreign company, but not Ford or GM. It seems to me that GM and Ford are at least really trying to do what they need to do - and we all know that both of them are going to be coming out with a lot of new, fuel efficient cars that should at the very least help them have some cash flow for the next few years. One of the things that really doesn't get pointed out in a positive light from a lot of the mainstream analysts is how much GM and Ford have started or will start utilizing their European operations more and more over here in NA. That's going to help out a lot, because they're actually doing pretty well in Europe (and methinks it has something to do with the fact that their cars are good over there).

One thing that will indeed happen is the continued loss of market share - that's something that will probably be very sobering to a lot of GM and Ford fans. But, I think the cars will be good, and they'll sell enough to stay alive - but I think their presence will be a lot smaller.

I dunno, my guess is as good as any one else on this board, but I think Jerry is doing a little bit of exaggeration on this one.

For 'effect'?

[gmcbob]

For 'effect'?

I dunno, perhaps. Maybe I'm trying to be more optimistic.

[GXT]

Clearly, he has no idea what he is talking about. Britain has a thriving car industry...employs thousands of people! Vauxhall is a British company, not American.

Flint wrote, "But we would be like Britain, which has no British-owned auto companies.". Vauxhall is owned by GM, isn't it?

[CARBIZ]

Flint wrote, "But we would be like Britain, which has no British-owned auto companies.". Vauxhall is owned by GM, isn't it?

Hence, my 'rolling eyes' icon. Vauxhall and Opel ARE owned by GM and are, therefore, now American companies, but a certain somebody on this Board insists that they are not. :AH-HA_wink:

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

We're america... Everybody's bitch.

I predict that eventually we will either have a very small domestic auto industry or none at all. And I predict that MOST americans are itching for this to happen anyway. Everybody hates Detroit for one reason or another, we've been conditioned to since birth and nothing will change that.

Just like we killed textiles, just like we killed tobacco, just like we killed silicon, just like we killed steel, we will kill the automobile industry.

[longtooth]

We're america... Everybody's bitch.

I predict that eventually we will either have a very small domestic auto industry or none at all. And I predict that MOST americans are itching for this to happen anyway. Everybody hates Detroit for one reason or another, we've been conditioned to since birth and nothing will change that.

Just like we killed textiles, just like we killed tobacco, just like we killed silicon, just like we killed steel, we will kill the automobile industry.

To be fair, tobacco's done it's best in controlling population growth. Especially Marlboro Lights: The standard issue cigarette of teen-aged girls.

[regfootball]

Flint is right FOGM is right.

it doesn't excuse the poor management of Detroit's 'best' but still, they have had to deal with issues the Japanese haven't. The Germans get by on the 'we'll pay way too much for a 3 series' factor.

It's most disturbing that now 54% of so called Amercans won't even look at a domestic brand, despite they put out some really good stuff these days.

And Japan has put out some real stinkers the last few years, notably Toyota.

54%. won't even look.

The only way you'll get supposed citizens in this country to even consider US cars is to move the automakers out of Detroit and to some hip and trendy spot like LA, Seattle, New York or whatever, it's just so uncool for cool people to be somewhere like detroit, must not be enough mocha there.....shut down all the factories and reopen new ones in non union environments or overseas.......buy off all the press like toyota does and start sending huge dollars to the politicians.

At least GM is trying. They threw up their hands at making 'north american' products anymore. The new Cobalt next year will be Asian, so that should satisfy the humpers. The next Aura will be German, so that will satisfy the humpers.

The higher paid people in this country that fund the car markets don't care if our businesses are owned here, as long as they can live the self first overpaid lifestyle that goes with it for themselves, they don't care who ultimately controls the purse as long as they can suck off the hind tit.

Edited June 13, 2008 by regfootball

[daves87rs]

We're america... Everybody's bitch.

I predict that eventually we will either have a very small domestic auto industry or none at all. And I predict that MOST americans are itching for this to happen anyway. Everybody hates Detroit for one reason or another, we've been conditioned to since birth and nothing will change that.

Just like we killed textiles, just like we killed tobacco, just like we killed silicon, just like we killed steel, we will kill the automobile industry.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The higher paid people in this country that fund the car markets don't care if our businesses are owned here, as long as they can live the self first overpaid lifestyle that goes with it for themselves, they don't care who ultimately controls the purse as long as they can suck off the hind tit.

Quote of the year!

[haypops]

Couldn't have written the article better myself. Japan seems to have no troubles spending millions for 'Toyota's' Synergy drive system, so why shouldn't Washington pitch in for Ford and GM to come up with a fuel cell?

The U.S. government contributed to a well funded consortium of American manufacturers, Government agencies, and Universities until 2000-2001.

[regfootball]

jan 2001 was when everything started sucking and ruined a lot of our country. jan 2009 cannot come soon enough. 8 years of dark hell everyone wants to forget.

[cletus8269]

"Whose fault is this? In no small part, Detroit's executives. Yes, Asian car companies cheated. They kept us out of their countries and kept their currencies weak. Yes, our government changed the rules so foreign brands could sell in domestic dealer showrooms, making it cheap for them to attack this market. Yes, our unions helped by ignoring the destruction they were causing until it was almost too late. State governments helped by giving foreign carmakers huge tax breaks when they build plants. Then there was bad luck, or whatever it is that has pushed gasoline prices to $4 a gallon."

plenty of fault to go around.

fret not, they wont be alone

[pow]

Flint is right FOGM is right.

it doesn't excuse the poor management of Detroit's 'best' but still, they have had to deal with issues the Japanese haven't. The Germans get by on the 'we'll pay way too much for a 3 series' factor.

It's most disturbing that now 54% of so called Amercans won't even look at a domestic brand, despite they put out some really good stuff these days.

And Japan has put out some real stinkers the last few years, notably Toyota.

54%. won't even look.

The only way you'll get supposed citizens in this country to even consider US cars is to move the automakers out of Detroit and to some hip and trendy spot like LA, Seattle, New York or whatever, it's just so uncool for cool people to be somewhere like detroit, must not be enough mocha there.....shut down all the factories and reopen new ones in non union environments or overseas.......buy off all the press like toyota does and start sending huge dollars to the politicians.

At least GM is trying. They threw up their hands at making 'north american' products anymore. The new Cobalt next year will be Asian, so that should satisfy the humpers. The next Aura will be German, so that will satisfy the humpers.

The higher paid people in this country that fund the car markets don't care if our businesses are owned here, as long as they can live the self first overpaid lifestyle that goes with it for themselves, they don't care who ultimately controls the purse as long as they can suck off the hind tit.

It took years for the major Japanese automakers to earn the reputation they have today. Likewise it will take years for domestic automakers to regain the trust and interest of this supposed 54%, as there will always be a lag between perception and reality. Eventually buyers will take note of Toyota's declining quality, growing recalls, fleet sales, and incentives, and the recent strides made by GM and Ford.

Build better, cooler vehicles and consumers will come irrespective of HQ location - but it won't be immediate. To enthusiasts, the Sunfire and Windstar seem far, far away, but to the infrequent observer, that was just five years ago.

Edited June 15, 2008 by empowah

[regfootball]

well, detroits cars are damn good today but the fact that so many people think they still build crap pisses me off.

japan's cars are not really much better if at all yet the press and public opinion is that japan inc is gold and us stuff is feces on the sidewalk on a hot day. there is not hardly that much difference in most price classes.

Edited June 15, 2008 by regfootball

[longtooth]

well, detroits cars are damn good today but the fact that so many people think they still build crap pisses me off.

japan's cars are not really much better if at all yet the press and public opinion is that japan inc is gold and us stuff is feces on the sidewalk on a hot day. there is not hardly that much difference in most price classes.

The Domestics could well begin any turnaround (or continue to build on that which has already begun) if they simply remain faithful to the basics of quality and great design. Just my groggy Sunday-morning-waiting-for-the-coffee analysis. Let's finish the job.

[gmcbob]

The big question is how do the Big 3 get people back in their showrooms? The product is there for the most part, it's just getting people to realize it. I've worked with a few people over the last couple of years (2 men in their 50s stick out the most) that swear they will never buy another domestic automobile ever again - and their kids (a little younger than me) drive foreign too. It's tough to shake that bad reputation - and it's not like these 2 guys I'm thinking of are idiots either - they're educated dudes that keep up with current events and for the most part are pretty well read. But when it comes to cars (and they aren't "enthusiasts" like us), it doesn't matter what evidence you show them or tell them about (recent quality surveys, telling them to just look at the cars themselves), they'll hear nothing of it.

We on this board are emotional about cars, for a variety of different reasons we've all found ourselves attached to boards like this because there's something running through our veins that makes us sensitive to anything and everything that has to do with the automotive world. We're brand loyal (for the most part) and we're hyper-aware of this to the point that it drives us mad. But guys like my co-worker, he couldn't give a frog's fat rear end whether or not an icon like Buick goes away (he drove tons of Buicks apparently back in the day) - even if they're much improved. In his eyes, he associates the last few Buicks he had like that crappy lawnmower you had once that happened to snap belts on you all the time- so you swore that you'd never go back to it -or if you had a GE dishwasher and it flooded your kitchen, maybe you'd avoid GE dishwashers - same with him, his 2000 Regal apparently broke down a lot - so, as he puts it "I'm through with GM". And I believe him, he's definitely through with GM. He now drives a Mazda.

But, if GM were smart, and I have no doubt they have at least a couple of smart people floating around somewhere within the cubicles of their corporate headquarters - they'd get the word out, in an intelligent way that doesn't necessarily insult people, that lets them know that any thoughts they had of GM being junk needs to be thrown out the window. Clearly they aren't doing an effective job of getting this message across at all. I hardly see any of their newer cars on the road at all around here. It's amazing to me how that even with a car like the Malibu, which is a far nicer looking car than the new Camry and even the new Accord (which I like), still doesn't really sell that well in the big scheme of things.

[Robert Hall]

The big question is how do the Big 3 get people back in their showrooms? The product is there for the most part, it's just getting people to realize it. I've worked with a few people over the last couple of years (2 men in their 50s stick out the most) that swear they will never buy another domestic automobile ever again - and their kids (a little younger than me) drive foreign too. It's tough to shake that bad reputation - and it's not like these 2 guys I'm thinking of are idiots either - they're educated dudes that keep up with current events and for the most part are pretty well read. But when it comes to cars (and they aren't "enthusiasts" like us), it doesn't matter what evidence you show them or tell them about (recent quality surveys, telling them to just look at the cars themselves), they'll hear nothing of it.

That is a good question...and how about all the people out there that have never owned a domestic, and their only experience with them is rental cars at the airport? I know many 20- and 30-somethings that never owned a domestic...they are happy with their Nissans, Hondas, Acuras, BMWs, Toyotas, Audis, VWs, etc...why would they switch? It's an uphill battle for the Detroit 3, certainly...

Edited June 15, 2008 by moltar

[Duncan]

Well, Chrysler might be owned by a foreign company, but not Ford or GM.

Correction - the plants and employees of Chrysler will be owned by a foreign company.

And wouldn't it be ironic if Renault, who Chrysler squeezed out of their company once (via AMC), came back along with Nissan to take them over entirely?

[Duncan]

well, detroits cars are damn good today but the fact that so many people think they still build crap pisses me off.

japan's cars are not really much better if at all yet the press and public opinion is that japan inc is gold and us stuff is feces on the sidewalk on a hot day. there is not hardly that much difference in most price classes.

My 60-year-old father, a long-time import buyer (most recently Toyota for my mom and Honda for him), was amazed at the quality of the Malibu when we saw it at the Denver Auto Show recently. As he said, "I'd be proud to own this car. I'm glad GM finally gets it." He also really liked the Buick Lucerne (he was surprised that it offered a V8 engine), but is amazed at the amount of energy expended on the marketing of full-size trucks and SUVs.

Keep in mind that my dad generally views cars from a design/practicality standpoint. For instance, despite all of its other fine features, he immediately discounted the Ford Five Hundred for having a "crappy trunk" (specifically, with exposed hinges and poor finishing). He was also very impressed with the new Challenger and the Mustang Bullitt ("that's what these cars need to look like" - he never liked the last-gen Camaro, as it was too futuristic for his tastes), and has finally been vindicated by the HHR Panel in his wish for someone to build an economical panel truck (though he still wishes it came with 4WD of some kind). I suspect he'll be even more impressed when Ford finally brings over the Transit Connect.

He has also grown quite appreciative of my sister's Kia Sedona (perhaps the best cargo space value on the American market), is only half-convinced about my own Mazda 626 (since he hates its low stance compared to Mom's Camry), loved his old Subaru Justy and Suzuki Swift purchases, and thinks the Toyota FJ Cruiser is an overpriced plaything that doesn't justify its poor fuel economy or compromised design. And don't get him started about people who use pickup trucks as family sedans. The current Toyota Tundra, to him, is a bad mistake that Toyota never should have made - too big, too lacking in quality, and too much of everything he didn't like about American pickups.

Finally, he sees no reason why EVERY car shouldn't have a hybrid system. He wishes his own Element came with one, and still laments that Honda won't put their system on more vehicles that need it. He might have seriously considered the Saturn Vue Hybrid at one point, but it has never had enough usable cargo space for him.

What does all this tell us? That intelligent design, practical engineering, and competitive products can win over even the jaded import buyer. If the American makers keep that in mind, and continue working toward great products rather than easy profits, a turnaround IS possible.

[CARBIZ]

He's driving an Element? :rotflmao:

[Blake Noble]

He's driving an Element? :rotflmao:

That brings us to today's trivia question: guess which age demographic generally does not like the Element?

[turbo200]

How do domestics get people back into the showroom?

Chevrolet Malibu, Ford Mustang, Chrysler 300= Great DESIGN

the Malibu is an example of Chevy/GM penetrating anti-GM market segment of midsize sedan sector, tough market conditions, incredibly competitive market segment....and they are up in volume, up in conquests, and actually selling retail around here. Both Malibu and G8 have actual presence at the local dealer, Malibu and G8 are the most in stock in selection for the cars. this is a local dealer that never had a Monte Carlo, doesn't have one Impala on the lot, has three Aveos, usually has a selection of about ten Cobalts, and is a sea of trucks. on the Pontiac side there's been times when the G6 is in stock, they had a few verts/coupes regularly for a little while, some Solstii, but lots and lots of GMC, including Acadias and a lesser but still substantial inventory of Enclaves.

bottom line in all the laying out of thier inventory: they order what sells around here. that the Malibu now occupies the most selection of cars they have, is a good indicator for that car, and the selection constantly moves. there are retail sales of Malibu now around here, that in itself is a miracle.

Miracle of GOOD DESIGN. just for emphasis, it's the great surface elements/transitions [this is key and help make cars what they are in terms of modern looks], the great transitions, the intersting character, the great attention to upscale details, the great attention to upscale lines that make Malibu a winner

[CARBIZ]

Well, turbo, you are half right: the Malibu does drive them into the show room, so they can then buy a Cobalt or Aveo or 'Nox. Just because the Malibu has become the darling of the self-appointed experts, does not in of itself make it a runaway success. 80% of GM's problems are with PERCEPTION. There is nothing wrong with the Impala (the fact that it sold 1/4 million last year, despite being 'dated' speaks volumes to that). If putting better door handles and better feeling switches in a car is going to win over the skeptics, then I am all for it. Mr and Mrs Joe Public will obediently do what they are told. Right now the media is telling them to buy a Malibu. Good for them.

Now that the imports occupy more than 50% of the market, they are able to bring more new models to market every year than any of the Big 3 can, either collectively or individually; therefore, by default the market share slide will accelerate because even the most loyal Detroit fan is bound to stumble over something from Stuttgart or Japan that they might like. The fact that the CTS, Malibu and Escalade have caught the eye of the jaded media and won their blessings is a step in the right direciton, to be sure. Toyota's recent failings are another. Chrysler made a hit with the media with the 300, despite its lackluster build quality and poor design (the 'C' is not the volume seller, BTW), but it worked for Chrysler - although their combined sales never approached that of the more 'dated' Impala. I think Lutz understands this from his stint with Chrysler in the '80s.

As I have said, now that GM has hit 20%, the slide will abate. Toyota will be #2 at around 15-18%, folllowed by Honda, Ford and the others. No shame in that. Once the housing crisis subsides, we may be seeing a 20 million American market in a couple years as people dump their gas guzzlers. That's still 4 million sales for GM. GM has quite a few new models in the pipeline, most of which will win the hearts of the media, which is all that seems to matter any more.

[longtooth]

Well, turbo, you are half right: the Malibu does drive them into the show room, so they can then buy a Cobalt or Aveo or 'Nox. Just because the Malibu has become the darling of the self-appointed experts, does not in of itself make it a runaway success. 80% of GM's problems are with PERCEPTION. There is nothing wrong with the Impala (the fact that it sold 1/4 million last year, despite being 'dated' speaks volumes to that). If putting better door handles and better feeling switches in a car is going to win over the skeptics, then I am all for it. Mr and Mrs Joe Public will obediently do what they are told. Right now the media is telling them to buy a Malibu. Good for them.

Now that the imports occupy more than 50% of the market, they are able to bring more new models to market every year than any of the Big 3 can, either collectively or individually; therefore, by default the market share slide will accelerate because even the most loyal Detroit fan is bound to stumble over something from Stuttgart or Japan that they might like. The fact that the CTS, Malibu and Escalade have caught the eye of the jaded media and won their blessings is a step in the right direciton, to be sure. Toyota's recent failings are another. Chrysler made a hit with the media with the 300, despite its lackluster build quality and poor design (the 'C' is not the volume seller, BTW), but it worked for Chrysler - although their combined sales never approached that of the more 'dated' Impala. I think Lutz understands this from his stint with Chrysler in the '80s.

As I have said, now that GM has hit 20%, the slide will abate. Toyota will be #2 at around 15-18%, folllowed by Honda, Ford and the others. No shame in that. Once the housing crisis subsides, we may be seeing a 20 million American market in a couple years as people dump their gas guzzlers. That's still 4 million sales for GM. GM has quite a few new models in the pipeline, most of which will win the hearts of the media, which is all that seems to matter any more.

The semi-iconic Impala. At it's height in the early 70's she and 'sister-ship' Caprice tallied 1.3 million units per year

[enzl]

Unbelievable that the debate here at all centers around, god forbid, good, exciting product.

Maybe GM should 'challenge' its dealer body with more mediocrity!

Who cares whether its enthusiasts, the media or your grandma recommending GM product? The 'bu & CTS have proven (conclusively) that product excellence is the way out for GM.

The sooner the Impy, Cobalt & Aveo are replaced with truly competitive product, the better. Anyone suggesting otherwise simply doesn't understand how the Japanese have grabbed 50% of the US market--nor how difficult GM will find to get share back now that it's gone. Bear in mind, GM employees were wearing 29 pins 2+ years age. Those who believe that a sub-20% marketshare isn't a permanent situation is fooling themselves. And assuming it can't go lower is even more foolhardy.

Keep up the pressure with good stuff, GM. Ignore the guys screaming about quarterly sales and concentrate on surviving into the next century!

[haypops]

He's driving an Element? :rotflmao:

That's not nice of you CARBIZ. It sounds like Duncan's dad is involved in his son's interests. Besides I like the Element too.

[regfootball]

My 60-year-old father, a long-time import buyer (most recently Toyota for my mom and Honda for him), was amazed at the quality of the Malibu when we saw it at the Denver Auto Show recently. As he said, "I'd be proud to own this car. I'm glad GM finally gets it." He also really liked the Buick Lucerne (he was surprised that it offered a V8 engine), but is amazed at the amount of energy expended on the marketing of full-size trucks and SUVs.

Keep in mind that my dad generally views cars from a design/practicality standpoint. For instance, despite all of its other fine features, he immediately discounted the Ford Five Hundred for having a "crappy trunk" (specifically, with exposed hinges and poor finishing). He was also very impressed with the new Challenger and the Mustang Bullitt ("that's what these cars need to look like" - he never liked the last-gen Camaro, as it was too futuristic for his tastes), and has finally been vindicated by the HHR Panel in his wish for someone to build an economical panel truck (though he still wishes it came with 4WD of some kind). I suspect he'll be even more impressed when Ford finally brings over the Transit Connect.

He has also grown quite appreciative of my sister's Kia Sedona (perhaps the best cargo space value on the American market), is only half-convinced about my own Mazda 626 (since he hates its low stance compared to Mom's Camry), loved his old Subaru Justy and Suzuki Swift purchases, and thinks the Toyota FJ Cruiser is an overpriced plaything that doesn't justify its poor fuel economy or compromised design. And don't get him started about people who use pickup trucks as family sedans. The current Toyota Tundra, to him, is a bad mistake that Toyota never should have made - too big, too lacking in quality, and too much of everything he didn't like about American pickups.

Finally, he sees no reason why EVERY car shouldn't have a hybrid system. He wishes his own Element came with one, and still laments that Honda won't put their system on more vehicles that need it. He might have seriously considered the Saturn Vue Hybrid at one point, but it has never had enough usable cargo space for him.

What does all this tell us? That intelligent design, practical engineering, and competitive products can win over even the jaded import buyer. If the American makers keep that in mind, and continue working toward great products rather than easy profits, a turnaround IS possible.

regarding the 500 trunk (of which i drive one) the hinges don't seem to be an issue here and the size of the trunk is ginormous. I can get stuff in the trunk of that car that you can't get in just about any other sedan, and i can outhaul a lot of the cute utes like rav4's and sportages, etc. My cargo area is bigger and more useful than the one in the rabbit with the back seat folded. I am able to get a kids bike plus a whole fam worth of luggage for a long weekend and still have room for other things like a cooler and such. I looked hard at the element before i got my 500 and i can tell you there are some instances where you can haul things in the 500 you cannot in the element. The elements cargo area is not very wide, its tall i must say that. I think the current outlander can outhaul the element. The outlander has the most useful cargo bay of all the cute utes, with the seats folded and tumbled.

what kills me about domestic brand avoiders, they may not have driven or owned one in many years, if at all, and yet they will be totally open to drive unproven stuff like Kias and Hyundais, or spend a premium to drive expensive euro cars which don't always have big reliability themselves.

Edited June 16, 2008 by regfootball

[BuddyP]

Yup, very true article. I don't believe the exec's are quit as much as fault as Flint makes them out to be, but every other word in that article is true.

[turbo200]

Well, turbo, you are half right: the Malibu does drive them into the show room, so they can then buy a Cobalt or Aveo or 'Nox. Just because the Malibu has become the darling of the self-appointed experts, does not in of itself make it a runaway success. 80% of GM's problems are with PERCEPTION. There is nothing wrong with the Impala (the fact that it sold 1/4 million last year, despite being 'dated' speaks volumes to that). If putting better door handles and better feeling switches in a car is going to win over the skeptics, then I am all for it. Mr and Mrs Joe Public will obediently do what they are told. Right now the media is telling them to buy a Malibu. Good for them.

Now that the imports occupy more than 50% of the market, they are able to bring more new models to market every year than any of the Big 3 can, either collectively or individually; therefore, by default the market share slide will accelerate because even the most loyal Detroit fan is bound to stumble over something from Stuttgart or Japan that they might like. The fact that the CTS, Malibu and Escalade have caught the eye of the jaded media and won their blessings is a step in the right direciton, to be sure. Toyota's recent failings are another. Chrysler made a hit with the media with the 300, despite its lackluster build quality and poor design (the 'C' is not the volume seller, BTW), but it worked for Chrysler - although their combined sales never approached that of the more 'dated' Impala. I think Lutz understands this from his stint with Chrysler in the '80s.

As I have said, now that GM has hit 20%, the slide will abate. Toyota will be #2 at around 15-18%, folllowed by Honda, Ford and the others. No shame in that. Once the housing crisis subsides, we may be seeing a 20 million American market in a couple years as people dump their gas guzzlers. That's still 4 million sales for GM. GM has quite a few new models in the pipeline, most of which will win the hearts of the media, which is all that seems to matter any more.

debating you is like walking into a brick wall, no wonder you find success in selling cars. you're persistent, hard-headed, and oblivious to facts around you. and this is me taking the high road. the media as well as consumers are reacting to malibu, cts, lambda, escalade, and before that silverado and 900 Suvs because they're great. period. good concepts of what each should be in the appropriate segment, being targeted at the consumer vying in those segments.

Media is only 35% of the equation, the rest is buyer's aptitude and choice. you underestimate consumers, it must be the kinds of consumers you're dealing with. you don't seem to get out in the real world enough. real world buyers make thier own decisions that reflect on influences but also experience and weighing one voice with another to reach thier own conclusions. people reacting to the malibu are making a choice to do so. when impala came out it was also generally well liked in the press, with some going so far as to call it a wash with the then-introd camry. you didn't see a migration of buyers towards that car, no improved sales, no improved resale value, same incentives....

on that note, going back to the brick wall, i will remind you that impala sells ~120k retail cars a year. buyers only choose 120k cars a year. resale value reflects the desirability of impala. incentives are always abundant. real world transaction prices are the among lowest for a large car [in the family sedan sector].

[Satty]

Random Element interjection:

I really liked the idea of the Element, and the styling, given what the car was intended to be. But a test drive killed it. The steering wheel was too upright, the seat was way too far back in relation to the window, the driving position was just awkward.

[CARBIZ]

But if the Element was a GM or Ford, we'd be hearing 3 pages of threads about what an ugly piece of crap it is.

[regfootball]

i have not driven the element but have ridden in one.....it is not at all a comfortable vehicle to sit in. It feels every bit like a truck and not a comfortable car.

i will give chrysler major kudos for this....the magnum, charger, 300, all comfortable for passengers and drivers. too bad chrylsers v6 is outdated and their is no 6 speed for the v6. our success as a domestic industry will be to preserve those comfort traits while embracing more the fuel economy etc.

want to know what else is comfortable? the front seats of the lambda and tahoes / yukons etc. but why is the second row seats so low on the lambdas?

the press is something else. edmunds raved over the new maxima, but man go look on canadiandriver.com first drive....the maxima is indeed fugly as sin right down to its altima trunk. how can you gush over something that is a disaster like that?

Edited June 17, 2008 by regfootball

[Satty]

i have not driven the element but have ridden in one.....it is not at all a comfortable vehicle to sit in. It feels every bit like a truck and not a comfortable car.

Bread truck is what I'd compare the driving position to. And while it isn't an attractive vehicle, it offers a lot of utility and a hose-out interior, which doesn't appeal to everyone, but people with kids/dogs/dirty hobbies see the value.

[pow]

But if the Element was a GM or Ford, we'd be hearing 3 pages of threads about what an ugly piece of crap it is.

Really? I like the Element's outdoorsyurbanjunglearchitectural design, regardless of who makes it...

Edited June 17, 2008 by empowah

[CARBIZ]

It's amazing how far people will go to NOT drive a minivan.